I need some outside perspective on whether I should walk away from a girl I deeply care about, or if this is fixable.
TL;DR: Broke up with a girl I was dating as she moved out the country and didn't want to do long distance. Got back together 2 years later when we lived in the same country. It was never the same. I tried to run dread game; pissed her off. She breaks up with me saying something is missing (after a heated argument). I initially brushed this break up as a temporary blip as it was after a heated argument. She came back after 10 weeks no contact wanting a fresh start, but after a few good dates, she immediately said "something is missing" again. What do I do.
The History: We dated for 5 months. She was incredibly invested, she moved to a different country. I ended it because I didn't want to do long-distance. She was heartbroken over it
We reconnected when she moved back. However, she was never the same to how she was before. She was a lot colder and noticeably less invested then me. Which was surprising as before the energy was probably 80% her 20% me. Now it was more like 30% her 70% me.
Because of this, I started inviting females to hang out with. (tried to run dread game as I knew she was not as invested as me. this didn't benefit our relationship). After a heated argument, she said "something was missing" and we broke up. I initially brushed this break up as a temporary blip as it was after a heated argument. She then went abroad for 10 weeks.
I went no contact. She reached out twice saying she misses me and she wants to chat when she was back. I reached out when she landed and ended up meeting for a chat.
We met up, agreed to try again, she said she cleared all her grudges and was ready to start fresh after her trip away. She felt she was never able to do that before and hated me after I ended things in long distance. I took her out on an amazing date, bought flowers and some gifts. The date went great, but the next morning she hit me with the same line: "Something is missing." Her mind changes with the wind. Last week she says she wants to try again, now she says something is missing. She has a lot of friends which give their 2 cents to her; and she lets her friends sway her saying to not go back there with me.
I told her not to make a rushed decision and to think about it. Without speaking with her friends. I love her, but I feel like I'm stuck waiting around for her to decide. I know the advice will be to walk away. But I do love this girl so it's hard. Do I send a text saying its over or go cold? Or try message her and make things work? I know TRP and would never behave like this normally; situation has me cooked
First-light 2 1d ago
The classic answer here is that when a girl says that and doesn't quit then and there, she is just waiting for something better to turn up and doesn't want to quit the security till she feels ready, usually when a better alternative is secured.
A small possibility exists that contrary to the classic situation, she feels you are not invested enough, was hurt by being dropped from something she felt solid in and won't fully invest on the re-run. You pulling away and trying to run dread would be the worst thing in this situation. If you run this from the other way round even as a man and not being as nervous and needy as a woman, you too might feel less inclined to commit another time and would react badly to pulling away and dread.
If you care deeply about her, cover both bases. Be prepared for the likely failure but then why not try the road untaken too? Try to be visibly fully invested. Ask her to try to explain what the missing thing is. Talk around it as well as the direct approach. Show her it matters without simping, no mind games, straight up investment. Worst that can happen is what you already prepared yourself for -gradual quiet quitting or the monkey branch when something better arrives.
clasvr 1d ago
I appreciate the reply. I feel I've shown I'm invested when she returned; especially on the recent dates I done some very nice things for her. Then after all that she still says somthing is missing. I asked her what she thought was missing, and she isn't sure. Now I'm in a position where I told her to go away and think about things. I don't really want to follow up by text and ask where her heads at; I'm just running circles around her at that point. Should I write a text ending it? Or just go away No contact
MidgetSpinner 14h ago
Become the thing she feels is missing by disappearing completely. Thank me later.
First-light 2 1d ago
A text ending it and no contact are both the absence of any positive move. Both are the acts of a man who really can see no positive move left to make.
Does it matter which you do?
Possibly. I am not sure women do well arriving at decisions by themselves. They usually need the hive to approve leaving a man, or another man to have come along. "A woman doesn't leave a man without support" has a lot of truth in it. Otherwise they muddle on miserably. They are also very bad at breaking negative thought patterns alone. Hence so much self help literature exists for women to just feel happy. They want to be taken out to feel valuable, they want to be acclaimed to feel right, they need to be praised to feel good.
You can muddle on with her until she gets a better idea or you can make a move. She is unlikely to generate positivity alone by thinking about things. If you really can see no positive move, a clear conclusion may be the most positive thing, even if it is a negative move.
"This isn't working for you and that means its not working for me. So I think its best to end it. Its not like I have stopped wanting a relationship with you but I have stopped wanting this relationship where I am not enough for you." If later she comes back it allows for a fresh start and fresh energy. Probably she won't but I can't see her getting positive energy from the inertia of things. The hamster is running the wrong way in the wheel. The wheel would have to stop before the hamster could start running the right way.
Typo-MAGAshiv Endorsed Contributor 21h ago
Slight disagreement with corrections:
1) he needs to pull away. The more he chases, the faster she'll run away.
2) dread is great, when one actually knows what it is and uses it correctly.
First-light 2 20h ago
I am going to be so bold as to argue against the dogma in this case. You have known me a while now and I feel I can take the risk. You at east know I am a bonafide contributer.
Let me first say that I do not know what the OP should do. I don't have enough information. He has a complex situation where he has a reasonably long history with a girl and she says she feels something is missing. We are just too far removed to know what is going on in her mind. We know it rarely ends well when a woman has said this. That's all.
Pull away and hope they follow generally works well;
These reasons are strong. But they should not equate to red pill dogma or at least red pill authorities should not be dogmatic in applying these truths. Early in courtship, provided a female is genuinely keen it makes a man stand out from the crowd of orbiters and increases her investment. It can lead to swifter results with sex and some good sexual encounters where the woman seeks reassurance in her attractiveness by being submissive and pleasing and the guy delightedly gives her what she seeks. Both are satisfied.
However later in a relationship it is less valuable as an attractant and more valuable as a means of avoiding simping and neediness. Later in a relationship it can be counter productive in some situations. If the guy genuinely has not been simping it may create a feeling of distance and disinterest. When you add this to the fact that women are not all that interesting to men beyond sex, nurturing and companionship, you can leave a woman feeling the wrong sort of anxiety. Not a "how can I get his attention back anxiety" but an "is this the wrong guy for me" anxiety. Aside from sex and nurturing (the two things you really want as a man) women seldom offer much beyond companionship. If you take this away, you are removing the one thing that you can disinterestedly share daily.
Being high value is all good but women do also need to know you are there for them. I know we are keen to say "well they have to earn that" but don't we all (of both sexes). Some of the fashionable red pill dogma is actually reactionary. It is reacting to women using men, not thinking about their feelings, entitledly expecting without contributing. To some extent it was ever thus with woman but feminism has taken it to new heights and men have had to adopt practises to actively combat this problem.
It is entirely possible that if a man has handled a girl a little roughly in the past -dumped her when she was dead keen- she will be cautious and unable to reinvest the same. Women are actually quite sensitive underneath the entitlement and the false bravado of feminism (hence all the shrinks that send children to private schools). In such a case, pulling away won't add to his value. The girl is already aware how much her neediness and desire for him can hurt her if he makes himself unavailable and she is involuntarily taking counter measures.
I write this as a man who may in the past have asked women to give more than they were able when it came to expecting fair shares of emotional effort after circumstances have shaken them. Women are the weaker vessel. When the entitled little femtards who are utterly clueless about what an actual relationship (not dating) involves are demanding more and more input from men they barely know, we laugh and walk away. But when we have hurt a woman or when life has hurt her, we may need to accept that a weaker vessel has been damaged and we will have to see if (and it is an uncertain If here) we can repair her with care. Sometimes she is not repairable. Woman breaks easily. Sometimes with the greatest regret we must draw a line and learn a lesson and move on. You can do your best and if you, the circumstances around you or the consequences of her own decisions around those things have already hurt her too much, you will probably never get her back even if you martyr yourself for it for the rest of your days.
Typo-MAGAshiv Endorsed Contributor 7h ago
None of that matters.
If a woman isn't treating a man the way he wants to be treated, and he's not made the mistake I did of marrying her and entangling himself, it is always in his best interest to leave.
Who gives a fuck what she wants? What she wants is her problem. Her actions made it clear that she no longer desires him like that.
We're here for men's sexual strategy and positive male identity. Women's interests are served virtually everywhere else in this world. Not here.
I'll reply to that later, if I have time and do not forget or get too distracted.
Bottom line of what I was getting at in my first reply to you: your grasp of dread is lacking. I've seen you disparage it before, and it seems to come from a blue pill understanding and/or cursory readings of the spergiest shit said by the spergiest spergs in Red Pill spaces.
Check out what Roissy/Heartiste and Rian Stone have to say about it.
First-light 2 3h ago
What I see from reading posts on this site is that irrespective of the merits of dread, many men, perhaps the majority of those who mention it in cases where they are the primary one experiencing active dread -fear of losing the girl- seem to gain no benefit from trying to use it and a good number actually harm their interests when they over zealously apply a strong medicine. Dread does not treat all relationship ailments.
I do not disparage the concept, particularly in courtship, where it is actually one of the most important drivers. Perhaps it is even the biggest factor in forming LTRS? You think this is someone too valuable to lose, so you commit?
"Who gives a fuck what she wants? What she wants is her problem." might just be the problem when its taken too far. It will work ok for pump and dump but this is an impossible strategy in LTR. It goes against Briffault's law. That is not a blue pill statement its a statement of reality and seeing reality is red pill. Briffault's law is a reality.
I am here for men's interests. Ignoring reality is not in men's interests. The answer is not "simp out lots" but it is to demand a fair return from women. If you ask too much from them and want too much your way, they can't actually take it. This leaves you with two options -keep asking too much, manipulating their feelings till they finally rage quit and cycling through women or moderate how much you ask and at some point you give them enough back. They are weak and need encouragement and validation. When you see this, this is just the wrong moment to apply what I will call "artificial dread".
Natural dread -your general excellence, attractiveness and possession of options is never bad but seeking to create dread in a woman when she is doubting if she gets enough from you can be counter productive. At best it secures her short term attentiveness through fear of loss but it does not correct the actual problem -that she is questioning if you meet the requirements of Briffault's law. Does she benefit enough from this relationship? You might be great and handsome and lots of other women might want your load but if you are simply unavailable when she needs you then sooner or later the hamster will work it out that there is simply not enough benefit here.
A site that helps men achieve their goals and is only there for them cannot exist without understanding women's feelings. Sometimes artificially manipulating their feelings is not going to be productive.
MentORPHEUS Senior Endorsed 1d ago
I was this fool, 40 years ago.
There's NO pathway to salvaging this into a functional and beneficial relationship.
Cut all ties with her. All the thought and energy you're expending on her, are better invested into yourself and other opportunities.
Reading assignment: The Sunk Cost Fallacy.
SeasonedRP 2 1d ago
This is excellent advice, OP. When they get wishy washy like she is, it's over.
clasvr 1d ago
Appreciate the advice. Guess it's hard to make that concrete decision and lay down the law when she keeps giving me mixed signals
Heaviuh_Things 1d ago
This is so damn clear it even hurts...The whole affair is done for. You "love her" far more than she "loves you". Not even "dread game" could save you.
There's no way around it, really.
Quit now. Move on with your life and move fast.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 1d ago
It's over, she isn't genuinely invested
The fact she lost grudges for you after a trip seriously raises the question of if she cheated.
She sounds like she got factory reset on the trip and because the trip was short term and you are long term she's just straddling her long term option
It's over and you should leave. It's just going to hurt more to stay. Leave and at least get somewhat of a T-spike to salvage how you feel about yourself
clasvr 1d ago
Thanks bro
Vermillion-Rx Admin 1d ago
No problem
Musicgoon78 3 1d ago
You're simping bro. She's controlling the frame and you're bending over backwards for this woman. Get the fuck out, date other women and knock off this oneitis bullshit.
This level of drama is unnecessary and you can do better and deserve better.
No-Stress-Cat 1 1d ago
On-and-Off relationships happen because the two people are only half compatible.
That's why she says, "Something is missing." Which happens to be other 'compatible half' she's looking for that you don't have.
It's the same on your side as well. There's something there, and it's really good, but there's something that's just 'off'.
I know you're all in on this when you're together, but you have to accept that you're just not going to make this work.
What isn't there is going to make you crazy, and what is there is only going to keep you from finding that whole compatibility.
The best thing for both of you is to just amicably go your separate ways.
If she's not 100% good for you, then she's 0% good for you.
Overkill_Engine Endorsed Contributor 1d ago
Why have you assumed that it is your job to fix whether or not she is fully invested in you? That assumption is what you need to fix.
throwaway415 1 1d ago
if you really "love" her that much you can try keeping her around as a plate but I concur with everyone else telling you to stop simping and move on. and especially dont be buying flowers and gifts for a chick who acts like this. I generally dont buy them anything but if you were gonna do that it should be as a reward for good behavior, not some attempt to buy her re-investment in you. that's capital S simping my brother.
she's not special and there's millions more just like her. keep it moving
Typo-MAGAshiv Endorsed Contributor 21h ago
Essential reading:
1) Rooting Through Garbage by Rollo Tomassi. This is from year one of The Rational Male blog and his first book, which is part of the sidebar.
2) Trying to make it work - why trying to make it work is fucking up your dating life by @mattyanon
3) my comment to a different askTRP here which I might as well turn into a copypasta or at least a standalone post.
None of Red Pill is about trying to get any one particular woman. This one is done. Next.
GeorgeIII 1 11h ago
If we’re talking about long term relationship frame, it’s obviously better if you, the man, has it. And she follows your frame.
In her case, she wanted to do her own thing: move abroad. I don’t know the reasons why (study, work, family, etc), but she chose not to stay in your frame. And this is not “wrong”, as in this world, you are free to have your own frame, or follow in someone else’s, man or woman.
And because she made her own choices, to be in her own frame, by moving abroad, you decided (correctly) that her plans, her frame were not compatible with yours. So you broke up with her. Fair enough, I guess you did want to have sex, and didn’t want to be on the phone 2 hours every night.
But here’s the thing: she has demonstrated that she would rather live in her own frame than in yours. Twice in fact, with the 10 week vacation. She wants to live with the benefits of having her own frame, while being able to fall back to you when it suits her. Hence the on-off, hot-cold behavior.
People are already telling you here, but I’ll say it too. Let her go. You’ve both shown you want the benefits of having your own frames, but also the benefits of being together in one frame. It won’t work. Better for both of you to be free to find what you want.