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lurkerhasarisen A Strategist Among Tacticians 10mo ago
So… it’s hard to be a man who’s not in the top 20% of conventional physical attractiveness?
Thanks, sweetie… but most of us have known that since puberty. Welcome to our world… the one you created by focusing exclusively on “the men you like” (based on immutable characteristics).
Guess what? At 33, you’re no longer in the top tier of available women for men with options, so unless you’re willing to share (and the other women are, too), you’re not likely to get one of, “the men you like.” The obvious answer is to take a hard look at what you bring to the table versus what other women bring to the table, and adjust your expectations (AND YOUR EGO) accordingly.
You might be listening to the siren song of “not settling.” Don’t: single women keep women single. If I want a McClaren but don’t have seven figures to spend on a car, it’s not a bad thing to “settle” for a car that doesn’t cost more than I earn in a decade.
mustangfrank1 Sr. Hamster Analyst 10mo ago
Welcome to our world… the one you created by focusing exclusively on “the men you like” (based on immutable characteristics).
Great Point. Women control the dating game in their young years. If their game plan fails, whose game plan was it? And if it was not working for years, then why was it not modified?
What will happen? She will blame the patriarchy.
polishknight WAATGM Endorsed 10mo ago
In Chris Rock's wonderful video: "How not to get your ass kicked by the police", he informs the viewer: "Laws were made for a reason. Think of them as hints".
This woman is finally beginning to catch onto hints like... "rejection tends to draw attention to our faults" and "taking action". These are good things and it shows unusual cognizance on her part that she's saying such things.
As you said, she's no longer in the top tier so now she has to do more than just wait for the top men to be "attracted" to her. This is sort of like some kid taking the "hint" that taking stuff from stores is probably not a good idea from the inside of a jail cell but it's better than nothing.
Lone_Ranger Sr. Hamster Analyst 10mo ago
I don't know why everyone is using the 20%
Its actually not the top 20% that women lust after, its more like the top 1%.
Or actually, more like the top 0.001%
lurkerhasarisen A Strategist Among Tacticians 10mo ago
That’s hyperbole. The OKCupid study was very clear that women find about 20% of men to be attractive. The 80/20 ratio is almost ubiquitous in that it seems to apply to all sorts of things that have nothing in common.
It’s called the “Pareto Principle” after the guy who discovered in the 1800s. Pareto was an Italian economist studying land ownership in 18th Century northern Italy. It seems to be one of those ratios that pops up all over the place, like the “Golden Ratio” does.
A confounding factor is that there are numerous attributes that women select for. The good news is that most men can get into the top 20% of something that women want. The problem arises when women screen out men who are not in the top 20% of multiple categories. Three categories? 20% x 20% x 20% is a small number: only eight men out of a thousand. Considering that some factors correlate with others (high earning men tend to be tall, for example), the number is even lower.
Typo-MAGAshiv asshole. giga-shitlord. worst mod EVAR. 10mo ago
You and @Lone_Ranger are both right, sort of.
Rollo went into this a few times, but his podcasts are like 5 hours long and take several commutes for me to complete, so I'll probably never find it again. But anyway, the gist of it is that the OK Cupid study determined that women found 80% of men unattractive, but that doesn't make the top 20% attractive by default. Remember, many of those men were just rated as average (very definition of average be dammed), with very few rated as attractive or desirable. Put another way, once a guy is in the top 20%, women might deign to give him a chance, but he isn't in yet.
It was something like top 4.7% that was actually attractive enough for the women to pursue.
woodsmoke Respectful reprobate 10mo ago
It's also all subject to the fundamental flaw of OLD: male sexuality is inherently and fundamentally dynamic. It has to be seen in action to truly be seen. Pictures and text on a website can offer some approximation of that but will never capture the essence of the thing.
We've all known or at least heard of dudes who, on the surface, seem to have no business even talking to any remotely attractive woman yet who absolutely lay waste to every piece of ass within a hundred mile radius because they can charm the white off rice. Put 'em behind a screen in an OLD profile and they'll never know the touch of a woman again, but head down to the bar on Saturday night and watch as they literally pocket the panties from half a dozen different women.
Sure, they're the exceptions who prove the rule, but they also perfectly demonstrate the truth of "women are human beings, men are human doings."
GimmeTheUsual Sr. Hamster Analyst 10mo ago
This seems relevant with Rollo talking about these stats - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ8yis1LNlI much shorter clip.
NotaBene Sr. Hamster Analyst 10mo ago
Also keep in mind that women vet first and "fall in love" second, at least when considering a future husband and not a ONS.
Men become infatuated merely when meeting a woman, but a woman needs additional information before deciding if he is "attractive" or not. Is he rich, powerful, successful? Do her friends like him? Does her mother approve of him?
They only notice men exist when they are attracted to one or need help with something.
polishknight WAATGM Endorsed 10mo ago
In theory, that's how they're supposed to think but note how many single mothers there are out there (including divorcees). Why do so many men wind up in the friendzone even with women who (believe) they are dating with intention to marry? Think about how they use the term "chemistry" and tingles so often.
Overkill_Engine WAATGM Endorsed 10mo ago
Yeah if anything the majority of woman are shallower than fratboys and have decided within 30 seconds or less of meeting a man if they will fuck him for free.
Key point. The rest have to pay, the only difference is the currency and amount. Though technically Chad also pays, the payment is access to himself.
polishknight WAATGM Endorsed 10mo ago
There's a link to that study on the sidebar: http://archive.is/489UV which is interesting in that it compares how women and men dated relative to their assessments. The men rated average women as, well, average but nonetheless gave more responses to women who were both average and above while the women who got lots of responses from "below average" men, nonetheless went out with them because those were often the only ones that were willing to pay for dinner.
So this means that, mentally, the men going out on dates were mentally dating someone they (statistically accurately) felt were in their league or even above and put in effort accordingly while the women who believed they were "dating down" even if she was a mere 5 herself had the attitude that she was doing him a favor.
I chuckled as the OK Cupid analysis got the conclusion totally wrong, quote: "On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable."
But this is assuming that the women are correct in their assessment of 80% of men being below average. As I realized early on in the dating game, it was just as easy to make an effort and buy dinner for a moderately attractive woman as it was a plain or below average one.
The reason why these women "shifted their expectations" was because they refused to buy (or perhaps COOK) dinner and make an effort to understand and impress the top 20% who were only giving them low interest.
There is one exception to this I know of. youtube "How I hacked online dating | Amy Webb". Comments are turned off for obvious reasons. I'm impressed by her story in that she researched what other women did to make themselves more attractive to men online and improve the odds to her funnel and reduced her self-sabotage by extreme hamster wheeling.
Lone_Ranger Sr. Hamster Analyst 10mo ago
To be precise, the women in the ok cupid study rated 80% of men as below average looking.
That's worth saying again;
The average woman rates 80% of men as below average attractiveness
orbilius 10mo ago
I've long thought that sentence by the OKC blog guys was them (perhaps intentionally) misstating/misinterpreting what was happening ...and their motivation is likely because they wanted to take the chance to shit on men by saying women are healthier, etc.
Here's what I think: men are messaging the most attractive women first.
That doesn't mean what everyone says, which is, "men only message the 'unattainable' women" - it just means the men are going in order. Why wouldn't you go in order??
Furthermore, women respond to the only men they can respond to - the ones who message them. And since women rate 80% of men as unattractive, you can interpret that to mean "women are settling for unattractive men" ...or you can interpret it to mean, "these men are actually in these women's league"
tl;dr I don't think men were being unrealistic, I think they were being systematic, and starting from the top. I don't think the women were settling, I think their ratings of men were unreasonable.
polishknight WAATGM Endorsed 10mo ago
That's what I think happened too. Minor twist: IRL interactions, men will often approach below average women first because there's a cost to approach and they may decide to start small (you don't start playing a video game on the highest level). In OLD, men will swipe on hundreds of profiles including below average women, see what responses they get, and then filter from there accordingly.
As this woman says above, quote, "Rejection tends to cause us to draw attention to our faults" and women both IRL and OLD don't actually experience significant rejection until they approach the wall and try to get something out of men aside from cheap validation from men pursuing them for sex. I think the above woman who wrote that was making it as an observation that she recently discovered as compared to something us men have known our entire lives.
That being said, however, women practice shame both for themselves and for men mercilessly: They call men "boys" or "cheap" if we don't give them what they want, and they'll mock other women for dating outside of The Rules such as paying her way on a date or, until recently, having used OLD. I chatted with a young woman friend of our family and she said she would rather remain single than go OLD or learn game even to get a man whose otherwise perfect.
Although I think the OK Cupid survey was trying to save face for women, men should learn collective strategy. Even if I see everyone else throwing litter on the ground in a park, I still deposit mine in the receptacle or take it home for disposal. I've told women off and gone home without sex rather than feed the female hivemind beast. Many men back then told me I was foolish for doing so.
Lone_Ranger Sr. Hamster Analyst 10mo ago
I guess I am talking about SMV, not RMV.
In the SMV game - we are talking about just shagging. For just shagging, its a very very narrow % of men that women will shag.
I'm talking about ONS, pick ups.
Women will broaden their criteria when it comes to looking for a relationship, which is the precise opposite of how men are.
I always say;
Women are very choosy about who they will shag, but will marry almost anyone. Men are the exact opposite.
Oddest-One-Here Jr. Hamster Analyst 10mo ago
Lone_Ranger Sr. Hamster Analyst 10mo ago
...But will marry men they would have previously placed in the friendzone if they feel they have a strong enough need, AND THEN KEEP THIS HUSBAND IN THE FRIENDZONE
This is the main cause of marriage failure. Women marry men that they have no interest at all in fucking. Because women don't marry for sex. They marry for resources. High school, college, bars - that is where they meet chad and get railed. Marriage? That is where they retire from sexuality and consume the resources of a beta.
Husbands are not sexy. Husbands give women the ick. If you marry a woman, you have just jumped into the friendzone with no exit. The friendzone that will cost you 300% of your entire net worth to get out of.
Typo-MAGAshiv asshole. giga-shitlord. worst mod EVAR. 10mo ago
That certainly was a lot of useless yammering.
Then why did you leave any of your exes? Why are you no longer with any of them?
wswZtyqNGQ 10mo ago
It's not hard to read between the lines that this woman was never more than a pump-and-dump plate. And what she would call her "exes" would never call her anything other than a "slump buster".
First-light Jr. Hamster Analyst 10mo ago
"I have trouble attracting the women I like young nubile, generous financially and in nurturing ways, willing to please, mentally and financially stable. How can this be? Is there some enormous injustice in he world or am I being a bit entitled? You tell me ladies, then you decide about this lady.
whytehorse2021 Jr. Hamster Analyst 10mo ago
Yeah, where's my rich, young, dumb nymphomaniac?
NotaBene Sr. Hamster Analyst 10mo ago
assumes Willy Wonka pose
YOU GET NOTHING! GOOD DAY SIR!
mustangfrank1 Sr. Hamster Analyst 10mo ago
Where have I seen this before? Boo Hoo all the good men are taken.
Me: No they are not. They didn't meet your foolish requirements when you were younger, so YOU rejected them. You over played your value and you lost. Too bad, live with your choices. Men have to do it all the time. Welcome to the real world.
Kloi 10mo ago
There are days I wonder if I shouldn't be with a woman closer to my age, then post like these from women around my age remind me, I've made the correct choice by grabbing a girl nine years younger.
houseoftolstoy Unchivalrous Christian 10mo ago
Those men come in 3 categories: already taken, taken advantage of by a corrupt family court system, or fed up with trying and getting no good results for their effort. That applies for all the men she would want. As for the men who she might be able to get, she has already disqualified them in her mind (to steal from Hoe_Math, "not people"), regardless of her level of unreasonability with her standards.
It seems many women are doomed to singleness largely by their own making, as they refuse to make practical changes to their standards even when they have less bargaining power (as she is now in her 30s). And unfortunately women like this one are not observing and learning anything from the other women before them who find themselves involuntary spinsters. A large part of that issue would most likely be that the women themselves are not aware of why they are chronically single, as they just see the end result while not understanding the cause and effect relationship with their age and their lack of success. At least, that is my theory, as much of our culture has considered the "old maid" to be a relic of the past.
Vermillion-Rx Penchant for plastic dolls 10mo ago
Wow, it's like eligible men settle with eligible women when both parties are in their 20s!?! Noooooooooo....
whytehorse2021 Jr. Hamster Analyst 10mo ago
Imagine in a few years when we reach longevity escape velocity and can live for hundreds of years, even revert our bodies back to our 20yr old self. Add in abundantly cheap resources from AI/robotics and easy weight loss through GLP-1 agonists. Your personal robot looks and sounds like Scarlett Johansson and slaves away for you 24/7.
What will become of these women? Will we just leave them behind and boldly go where no men have gone before? I fail to see the value proposition modern women offer in such a future. In fact I was telling my wife about the new G1 $16k humanoid robot from Unitree that can basically do everything she does https://www.unitree.com/g1 .