Got RP'ed the hard way when I got divorced at 30 (married at 22). Although I never cheated and never abused my ex in anyway there were several reg-flags that I overlooked. I understand where things went wrong and accept responsibility for my decision.
I (m 46) focused on myself and eventually moved to a conservative South American Country. I did the Passport Bros thing without realizing there was such a thing.
When I moved to this new country in 2017 I had a ready made friend group in my religious community. I met several nice woman but was so traumatized by my previous LTR / divorce experience that at the time I was considering going MGTOW. While there was no real interest on my part I exchange phone numbers with one woman but I did not think of her again.
So one day I got a text from her inviting me to a Zumba class she was going to host. I later found out that she is professionally trained dancer that has danced competitively and won awards. Her classes were enjoyable and I went three times a week to help reduce my weight and get some aerobic activity.
Fast forward to New Years 2020, just prior to the Pandemic going hard globally. I went to a super party and meet the family hosting the event and their daughter was my Zumba instructor. There was a bit of conversation between us but nothing spectacular. About a week later I got a texted photo from her showing her sitting on a bench that had two lighted angel wings with her palms raised above her head to the right and left. At this point I realized that she has a thing for me.
We texted a bit and did some Zoom meetings to talk face to face. This far I have been able to gather the following information about her:
She holds the same conservative religious beliefs that I do. She is 44 and she states that she is a virgin (not a born-again virgin) and her virginity (hymen) is intact. She had had 4 serious boyfriends in the past and says that the extent of her physical relationship was kissing and hold hands. She says that on two occasions two different boyfriends tried to trick her into sex but she rejected them firmly thus leading to the end of the relationships. She has an Engineering degree in IT and has worked professionally in a local university for many years. She chose to not renew her work contract in 2017 and moved to an area several hours away to serve in missionary style volunteer work until the end of 2019. She is fully aware of my previous relationship circumstances as well as the events that led to my divorce. She is not by any means conventionally attractive. Nevertheless getting to know her in an in-depth way has revealed that she is a decent person and has a sensitive heart. She has a 1950's mindset about a woman's place in the family (actually typical for the people of her country). She is comfortable that with me she will not have any children (vasectomy). She is completely debt free. When I need to leave the country for a few weeks for family reasons she pays my bills and manages my money in an exemplary way. Although we have not had any kind of sexual intercourse (including use of hands, oral or anal) it is obvious through our expressions of affection such as hand-holding, hugging, massages, caressing non-intimate areas etc. that we are sexually compatible. She gets embarrassed often because on several occasions she has gotten wet to the point that it shows through her panties and leggings.
She is not without her flaws; she has been passive-aggressive. We had several conversations about the matter and it actually stopped (I was pleasantly surprised). She can be jealous about they way other women act towards me. Being considered a wealthy North American (although I don't see it that way) with a US passport makes me a constant target of many local girls and women looking for a relationship. Moreover, she is in aspects a woman with all the typical difficulties that come with dealing with her gender.
I do not want to make the same mistakes that I did with my ex. I have read and tried to apply RP ideology to this current relationship. Additionally, by mutual decision our relationship will remain virtuous and there will be no sexual contact until marriage.
So here is where I need your help, what might I be overlooking? I can filter what I need from what I don't. I am looking for everyone's comments and ideas. If there are any other considerations that I have not taken into account let me know. Thank you in advance for your ideas.
Edit: I am going to use this relationship as a scientific experiment to test certain ideas and try out new ones. I will post at intervals as is permitted by the moderators. Next Post will be about the next steps if any in this LTR. Thank you everyone for your input.
oowiw 2mo ago
What's the upside for you? Does she have the things you want? Is she your best option for the things you want?
You're very reasonable in evaluating her downsides, you definitely don't sound like you're wearing rose colored glasses - but I also can't discern anything about what's enticing you here either.
First-light 2mo ago
My first thoughts were this is a classic case of wall hits and its time to be a born again virgin. A born again virgin dance instructor, now that really is a test of the powers of credibility.
If she is a virgin at 44, there is at least a 99.9% chance she is either a head case or a liar. If she is a virgin and not a head case, heaven help you her sex drive must be minimal. Best hope she is a liar.
I am not going to say avoid but avoid getting played. She is rather late in the day playing the game she should have played at 18 but she is not 18, her value is not high enough for you to sell yourself in marriage to gain access to her nether regions.
Just enjoy her, treat her well and see what happens. One thing I have found out about devout women is that their devotion is not enough to save them from falling in love and when they do, nature will take its course if you let it. I would just let it take its course, never promise marriage and things can't go too wrong.
She is clearly into you, she only needs an excuse to do what she already wants to do. Just treat her well but be clear in being non committal to marriage and soon enough you will find an excuse for her. Then you can have a normal relationship with her.
No-Stress-Cat 2mo ago
Kind of hard to tell. South America is huge continent with many types of conservative religious beliefs. Here's a few points that raise some suspicions:
From what you described, she sounds like a typical woman who was influenced by Western Modern Woman behavior. She doesn't sound bad, but doesn't sound good either. Just an average, typical woman. She knows she's too old for children, at least she has accepted that. If you're ready to settle down, and she's down for settling down with you, and you have established your boundaries, and she's willing to not cross them, why not? Just be sure to vet her for a couple of years before making it "official forever".
Bad_Robot_13 2mo ago
The fact that she is 44, never been married, and a virgin does give me pause. I asked a mutual friend and he said that the reason she never got married is because her standards were too high. At the same time I am going to ask around a little bit more and see what the consensus is.
Durek_The_Bald 2mo ago
Do not marry her. If she's truly into you, and not just trying to settle with some chump because her standards were too high for too long, then she'll be onboard with a non legally binding relationship that involves sex.
Honestly, she sounds like a complete idiot, expecting marriage at 44, thinking she can still hold back sex before commitment at 44. Utterly delusional. You're getting played.
Bad_Robot_13 2mo ago
The reality is that I have had many opportunities to have relations with her but have made the deliberate choice to not do so. These are sincerely held person beliefs that have served me well. Sex for most women is an emotional as well as a physical thing and I do not want to string a woman along solely for my gratification.
As far as 'getting played', that is an observation that I am concerned about as well. As a result my determination is to get a complete picture of her life prior to making any commitment.
Testme 2mo ago
If she is 44 then what are you doing?
Bad_Robot_13 2mo ago
Excuse my ignorance, please explain further.
Testme 2mo ago
Why would you marry/date a 44-year-old when you could have a 25 year old?
One of the main points of RP is not to focus on one woman, but to date a lot of different women.
Bad_Robot_13 2mo ago
I understand much better, thank you. While many of the values and points made by RP thought are absolutely correct there are certain aspects that I need to customize to fit my own thoughts and my own lifestyle. This is how I treat Stoicism as well, while there are many good points I customize to fit my own world view and religious beliefs. I hope this does not offend any one but I don't believe in one size fits all. Each theory, belief system, ideology etc. needs to work for me personally, I take what I need and leave the rest behind.
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Durek_The_Bald 2mo ago
If you'd only drop the blue pilled traditional-conservative "no sex before marriage" schtick, you could have had a lot of fun with this woman, and just see where it goes. Maybe it would be good, maybe it wouldn't. We can give you a hundred red flags, but at the end of the day, you're going to have to assess each individual woman in your life yourself, over time.
What she's proposing, and this traditional thing you're already hung up on, is just man-bait. That is all it is, especially in the context of what both your lives look like. It could possibly have made sense if you were both young, getting ready to start your life, and wanted to jump straight on the family-train. But think about what's the actual reality here:
You're well into your 40's, you've been married before, you've already got your life set up financially and career-wise, and you're not going to have kids. You are not a traditional man. She's well into her 40's, unmarried, she too is set up financially and career-wise, and she's not going to have kids. She is not a traditional woman. Trying to force this relationship into a traditional-conservative frame is pursuing a fantasy, because none of you are actually traditional-conservatives.
So what the hell are you going to marry her for? The whole point of marriage is to have kids. Without that, it's 100% pointless. It's just you supporting a woman into her old age without getting anything in return, besides risking half your shit. You both need to let this traditional-conservative thing go. Because it doesn't suit either of you with regards to your age, your lives, and what you want out of the future.
The sensible thing would be to date, fuck, have fun, don't marry, don't move in together, both having your own thing going, and just see where it goes. In all likelihood, you're going to grow sick of eachother at some point, and break up (you'll be glad you weren't married then). But in the unlikely event you lived happily ever after, you don't need marriage to sement that. You can just choose to be together so long as you both want it.
The biggest red flag here imo, is that she doesn't see that. It's concerning that she thinks she's still trad-con material. And that tells me this is all bait to lock down a man - not even you specifically, just any man who's gullible enough. And it's concerning that you're buying into that.
I suggest you do the following (because I get that you like her and all):
Suggest the sort of arrangement I described for you here, and gauge her reaction. If she's onboard with moving towards a sort of boyfriend-girlfriend relationship (which involves sex), but without marriage, without cohabitation, without pooling your respective economies, then fine; You can work with that, and see how it goes.
But if she has a problem with that, as a barren 40+ years old woman, then you, sir, are either getting baited, or she's truly delusional to a pathological degree. And whatever you do, do not fall for that. Do not allow yourself to get strong-armed - via the allure of potential sex she's currently holding back - into something that essentially only benefits her and her ego. That train left her a long time ago, and if she was a smart, respectable, emotionally stable woman, she'd see that, and adjust her expectations, and her end of the bargain, accordingly.
And I'm sorry dude, but the quality and frequency of sex over time is an important thing to assess before you commit (even non-legally) to any woman. Especially when you don't even get to experience her prime in return for taking that massive risk. So with what you want and don't want from your life (especially with regards to kids), you need to let the trad-con thing go. Because it doesn't suit you, it only complicates your life, preventing you from accurately assessing over time the potential women in your life. This mental schema of yours only sets you up for getting taken advantage of by post-wall women.
If you wanna be a traditional man, then reverse your vasectomy, and go for women in their early 20's (at latest). You get their prime, they get your resources, you both get kids and a family, and so it goes. But without that? Then fuck the trad-con thing. Fuck it right in the ass. Make a choice. You want this, or you want that? Because you can't have both.
Bad_Robot_13 2mo ago
Thank you for your observations.
Overkill_Engine 2 2mo ago
The point of marriage and the commingling of assets is to ensure that a woman gets repaid for offering her childbearing and childrearing years.
If she's not offering that, or more to the point, literally cannot offer that, then she's just angling to be a really expensive roommate that pays little to no rent and gets to evict you from a house that you probably paid for and take half or more of your shit any time that she wants in the process.
Great for her, but utter shit for you if you happen to be basic math skills impaired. Even a regular woman of childbearing years is already playing a game of fiscal Russian Roulette when it comes to marriage. This one offers even less.
Bad_Robot_13 2mo ago
One point that should be taken into account. Because of the traditional conservative values of the country in which I am a resident the divorce laws are quite pro-male and the options for a pre-nup are built into the marriage ceremony itself. Specifically, when the marriage occurs the judge asks if there will be a commingling of assets or a hers is hers and mine is mine. Additionally, all my assets are well out of her reach in the US, there is literally no way for her or a court to get their hands on them.
LTEconnect 2mo ago
Divorce laws work retroactively. What today is a norm, might not be im 20y.
All you can count on is yourself.
Bad_Robot_13 2mo ago
This is true and I am constantly reevaluating all matters of my life on a consistent basis. We could all wake up the next morning to learn of some tragic world event that impacts everyday life without expectation (similar to 9/11).
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LTEconnect 2mo ago
There is one fact to be checked. Is hymen intact?
No woman dealing with average man would expect being sent for examination.
But because it's very unusual request you will get few answers. One how hesitant is she. Two how combative is she being suddenly shaken and surprised with very unusual request (feminine one will not be combative) even more if you do it in front of the clinic.
If she is so sold on you, she will see no problem to attend US clinic of your choice, of someone you trust.
The sooner the better.
Trust (yours too) is proximity and frequency.
If you think it is embarassing, then you re not brutal enough and it might show in how you generally act, inviting leaches that see you as a target.
You considering mgtow you sound you might be out of touch with reality of dating and easy target trough your inexperience.
Durek summed up cost/benefit/risk nicely.
Try not to get scared of being scared again. Hold your stance on what you want (would want in perfect world for yourself) and make it something that ultimately benefits YOU. If you approach it from here you'll be good. This is not selfish. This is taking care of your back. If you'll take care of your back you will be able to move forward with confidence.
No one needs that much info about you ever. But it can be used to evaluate where is your vulnerability
Is she the spy that knows too much?
I thought that sexualy compatible means th8ngs involving sex
Ok. So whats your emotional interpretation of it. Cute, sexy, virgin mother, unicorn?
Sound you're balls deep. In case you won't listen to anything else, check has she got hymen and get a fat dowry.
Bad_Robot_13 2mo ago
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
Bad_Robot_13 2mo ago
For me the biggest issue is her past and more specifically why she is not married. She has given some reasons that on surface seem legit, nevertheless I will be doing some deep digging and investigation as to why she has not yet been married and if she truly is a virgin.
LTEconnect 2mo ago
I'm not discouraging you from digging on 'why'. But you might be opening door to gossip and all sort of sociopaths.
If you dont believe her and you know her, why would you believe a stranger.
You basically need to vet anyone that tells you somerhing and even if you are part of the community, who will they value more: local or you. Blue pills will try to destroy your happiness, women could be honest after sex.
You need to be selective with how you get info otherwise it might taint your relationship where it should not.
Your observations, your tricks, your game is the best toolbox.
Bad_Robot_13 2mo ago
I sincerely thank you as your comments makes much good sense.
As to sources I never use strangers. I keep a small but knowledgeable friend base and like it that way. Each person is carefully vetted and not by me personally, I use standards not of my own choosing to enforce that the people I know are worthwhile and not going to disappoint. If they do per chance violate the standards they are ejected with extreme prejudice.
As to my toolbox one thing that I have found quite useful is to appear to be less aware, alert and knowledgeable than I let on. Letting people feel superior to me causes them to let down their guard and they spill the beans about who they really are and what they really think. Then I use the information to my advantage when they least expect it. I know I sound like a sociopath but in this world in which we live you must always be playing chess when others are playing checkers.