[In Western countries, testosterone in males has dropped by 30% since 1987.] (https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/10/02/youre-not-the-man-your-father-was/)
[More evidence of the same.] (https://www.healio.com/endocrinology/hormone-therapy/news/print/endocrine-today/%7Bac23497d-f1ed-4278-bbd2-92bb1e552e3a%7D/generational-decline-in-testosterone-levels-observed)
[Sperm count in Western men has dropped over 50% since 1973.] ( https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/16/health/male-sperm-count-problem.html)
[Average levels of testosterone get lower and lower every year.] (https://uk.reuters.com/article/health-testosterone-levels-dc/mens-testosterone-levels-declined-in-last-20-years-idUKKIM16976320061031)
[Men's fertility rate gets lower and lower every year.] (https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate)
If you took the average man of today to the early 20th Century, his androgen levels (the hormones that distinguish men from women and children) would be much closer to a woman's than a man's.
And how important is this? Incredibly important:
[The incredible effects of testosterone.] (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5054608/)
Bone structures and shapes, bone density, muscle strength, metabolism, fertility, behavior...
Now the question is: Why is this happening?
My theory is [neoteny caused by domestication] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1gzpEktyKo).
Whenever a species is domesticated, it very quickly evolves into looking and acting like juvenile versions of themselves. The transformation is the same for all species: apes, wolves, pigs, birds...
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Shorter mandibles and shorter maxillas
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Smaller viscerocraniums, larger neurocraniums
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Larger heads, smaller bodies
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Higher intelligence, but weaker bodies
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Less aggressive behavior, less confrontational, less predatory
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Larger eyes
- Floppy ears
[Scientists Dimitri Belyaev and Lyudmila Trut studied the artificial selection of foxes.] (https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/H/bo25568406.html) They selected the tamest, most docile, less aggressive foxes and made them breed. And these changes are damn fast: within just a few generations they obtained huge physical changes, all listed above.
[Here] (http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~wrstrick/secu/ansc455/heads.gif) and [here] (http://www.kurzweilai.net/images/baby-schema-across-animals.png) you have examples of adult specimens compared to their "babies".
Compare [the skull of an adult chimpanzee] (https://www.google.es/search?biw=1189&bih=592&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=x3xuXPPaBKiKlwTj06e4BA&q=chimpenzee+skull&oq=chimpenzee+skull&gs_l=img.3...23013.25092..25273...0.0..0.135.1827.0j16....2..0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0j0i5i30j0i30j0i19j0i5i30i19j0i30i19.gLGlhCxWCkU) with [the skull of a baby chimpanzee] (https://www.google.es/search?biw=1189&bih=592&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=4XxuXJ2WB6OOlwTS16OgBQ&q=baby+chimpanzee+skull&oq=baby+chimpanzee+skull&gs_l=img.3..0i19.213465.213948..214126...0.0..0.128.593.0j5......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i7i30.tVNA7xc08lw). And then take a look, and compare those skulls, to [the skull of an adult human] (https://www.google.es/search?biw=1189&bih=592&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=uH1uXIX3J47QaPqeneAI&q=human+skull&oq=human+skull&gs_l=img.3..0i67j0l9.32356.33639..33857...0.0..0.163.1312.0j11....2..0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i131.P53gpJ8ZuIQ).
Yes, humans are basically baby chimpanzees. The same thing happens with bonobos and gorillas.
Or take for example [the skull of an adult wolf] (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/413fq165otL.jpg) and compare it to [a wolf puppy] (https://pre00.deviantart.net/904f/th/pre/i/2011/341/8/4/puppy_skull_by_wolflova202-d4igjvo.jpg). Then compare those to [an adult domestic dog.] (https://rescuecritters.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/full_81_121-2-600x420.jpg)
[Here you have a comparison of the skulls of a wolf and a pug, to make things clear.] (https://500questions.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/dog-skulls.jpg) The ears also change, not only the eyes, the body proportions, the skull bones...
How about [a wild boar] (https://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2018/1/30/b/c/f/bcfa126a-69c6-462f-888a-491f4d95eeb0.jpg) compared to [a domestic pig] (http://www.d91.k12.id.us/skyline/science/zoology/pig.jpg)? Shorter maxilla and mandible, larger eyes, floppier ears, larger heads, smaller bodies, less aggressive behavior.
These changes are all the result of domestication and artificial selection, man-made evolution.
Changes in behavior ALWAYS require changes in body. For example: lower testosterone means lower aggressiveness, but it also means weaker bones and weaker muscles. Men with lower androgens are less controlling and possessive, but they also have more baby-like faces, less prominent bone structures in the face, and weaker bodies. You cannot domesticate a species without turning it into babies.
Lefort3000 5y ago
The lower testosterone is a result of xenoestrogens and other environmental toxins babies and adults are being exposed to at higher amounts. However, total testosterone isn't what matters, it's the free testosterone that matters. The only relevant study I saw on this was that Indians from India had statistically higher total testosterone compared to Indians born in the UK (like 15% higher), but the freetestosterone was closer.
ntvirtue 5y ago
Higher intelligence is what makes humans the dominant predator on the planet. Higher intelligence is what created the study of war, firearms, martial arts, its responsible for creating concepts like Special Forces. Higher intelligence is what allows a 140lbs man to have no fear of apex predators like the Great cats. You need to rethink your core concept.
lala_xyyz 5y ago
Then explain how on average we're getting dumber every generation since the mind 19th century.
ntvirtue 5y ago
https://ourworldindata.org/intelligence
lala_xyyz 5y ago
As I said, measured IQ has been rising, but overall average intelligence (per capita) has been declining due to dysgenics. The smarter the man or woman, the less kids they have. Also heavy inbreeding in Muslims (whose demographics are exploding). Measured IQ rise due to better nutrition, schooling etc. has a limit, after that it's going down, and recent surveys have in fact shown that.
ntvirtue 5y ago
On average we have been getting SMARTER since the mid 19th
red_philosopher 5y ago
There's a physical functional limit to intelligence though, at least based on our existing biochemistry. And smart people tend to breed less, so high intelligence tends to become a selective pressure in favor of the mediocre.
Intelligence increases these days is probably related to pure nutrition more than anything else.
lala_xyyz 5y ago
No we haven't, measured IQ has been rising in some societies, but overall average intelligence has been declining due to dysgenics.
MarcosDomingues 5y ago
Less facial forward growth in domesticated animals might be a poor example.
It has more to do with the toughness of your diet than anything else really.
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PS2Errol 5y ago
The time period is too short for those kind of changes.
More likely is the massive hormonal disruption caused by chemicals in water/food/air.
foxysays_404 5y ago
I've always been slightly 'juvenile' looking -short, somewhat soft and round-faced, abhorrent of aggression and so on- so I suppose I could be a great candidate for something like the Testosterone therapy in OP's linked study. A few years ago I was still super into the MMA/gymbro deal, and was doing kind of alright with it.
​
I then discovered I was born intersex. I've been transitioning for about a year now, and I've never been better. OP has some right points and some wrong points - juvenile features aren't really a good indicator of anything though. I certainly wasn't coddled or fed any weird hormones. My hormonal profile has always been 'fine for male'
Imperator_Red 5y ago
No it's not. Did you even read the post? This can happen within a few generations of artificial selection.
SomeTurdInTheWind 5y ago
The experiments with foxes and other animals showed physical changes in only a few generations.
onionknightofknee 5y ago
Yes but selected the most extreme ends for mating. Humans aren't mated to the extreme ends by an outside force.
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VickVaseline 5y ago
The foxes and other animals were being intentionally bred in order to bring out traits amenable to domestication. What you have failed to show is how men are presently being selected for these traits.
I.E., are girls (the sexual selectors for breeding) favoring men with domestic traits? If so, have girls only started doing this within the last century-or-so? Why?
poohead5 5y ago
Civilization itself is domestication. Just look at the differences between a western city dweller and a primitive tribesman.
[deleted] 5y ago
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Proto_Sigma 5y ago
So you think the birth control in 3-4 generations has already put sufficient selective pressure on the population to produce the soyboy phenomenon?
redpillschool Admin 5y ago
Absolutely.
ChesterRickman 5y ago
I don't believe most soymen raise their own kids, so alpha genes should prevail.
[deleted] 5y ago
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Proto_Sigma 5y ago
Obviously society is becoming more beta, and women on the pill have been demonstrated to be more attracted to less masculine characteristics.
However, this only manifests while the woman is taking the pill, inhibiting betas from reproducing. Fertile women like masculine men and want to have their babies. Alpha fucks/beta bucks is as strong a dynamic as ever so cucks aren’t reproducing to pass on cuck genes.
I would argue that the decline of Western masculinity is due more to environmental rather than genetic changes, with birth control being an important contributing environmental factor but not the only or even the main one.
-Radical_Edward 5y ago
The changes are going to become extreme once veganism becomes mainstream. Also, that male birth control that blocks testosterone 100% will be the final bullet.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 5y ago
Setting aside availability cascade, confirmation bias, expectation bias, Semmelweis reflex, and half a dozen other phenomena that could definitely still corrupt one's judgement in the test you proposed, are there societies that are similar enough on all other factors that comparisons of birth control availability present the only salient controlling variable?
IOW, all other things being very much NOT equal, how can you declare with certainty that the birth control is the relevant factor?
^^Edit-Typo
[deleted] 5y ago
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Proto_Sigma 5y ago
Not disputing that. But when comparing societies across history and the world are there any two where there are sufficiently few complicating variables that differ where we can reliably gauge the role of birth control, all other things being equal?
[deleted] 5y ago
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Proto_Sigma 5y ago
Well done. More definitive stats on the use of both (what constitutes primary and how much are secondary sources being used?) would be helpful but this is a good first step for a natural experiment.
The divorce rates of those cultures (save for Haiti, which has no data I found, wrecking the DR comparison) are quite similar.
Other useful variables to consider would be T-levels by country, rate of promiscuity/sexual activity, frequency of infidelity, average age of first marriage, rate of out of wedlock or cuckold births, prominence of obesity and other markers of masculine physical health/dysfunction.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 5y ago
Sounds like a good starting point for some factual analysis. I come away with the distinct impression that you haven't performed such an analysis in advance of claiming the results.
1v1crown 5y ago
Yeah that and all the estrogen they put in the tap water
Acerp321 5y ago
I’m not so sure about it being an evolution thing. It could be more acute.
That said, I’m more knowledgeable about hormones than 99.x% of the population. I’ve studied it constantly for the past 5 years. I had to go on TRT around that time.
You have to understand the mind/body connection. The mind causes physical changes in the body. Pain for example. Your brain can make it severe or completely turn it off in the right circumstances. I believe the domestication or pussification of men has led to changes in androgen levels.
I can’t prove it, and neither can anybody telling you it’s soy, etc, etc, but my personal experience tells me it’s true.
Keep in mind lower T levels or higher does not exact the same result from person to person. Men vary at 20 years old as far as their male traits go. Deep voice, muscle mass, motivation, etc. it’s doesnt necessarily follow measured leveled of testosterone. At the cellular level our bodies all respond differently.
Vikingcel 5y ago
You can't compare us to chimps. We're a whole different species. We can't even interbreed. Dogs can and do mate with wolves.
Try looking at a german shepherd skull, irish wolfhound etc. Those don't seem very neotenous either, despite being domesticated.
[deleted] 5y ago
This has been one of my favorite theories for years.
Just remember this: while neoteny and human domestication will continue to play an ever-larger role in a developed and peaceful world, it is the cues of danger and violence that trigger the primal instincts governing sex.
In fact, if all you relentless beta/alpha categorizers want a truly useful dichotomy, just ask: is my behavior domestic, or primal?
SomeTurdInTheWind 5y ago
Exactly. The humans that are most positive for society are NOT the same as the humans that people find sexiest.
Some individuals may be the incarnation of human progress and still die alone and childless, having their blood line die with them, while other humans might be completely negative for society's growth and still spread their genes across the population like crazy.
lala_xyyz 5y ago
It's called gracilization and has been observed in all tamed species, as well as human bones even since the forager-settler transition occurred. The soy era is just the peak of this process whereby society's institutions (media, schools and learned behavior) play the role that the death penalty and ostracization played during the history, i.e. removing the non-docile strains from the gene pool. Of course eating crap food, not lifting, breathing poison that passes as air in the cities, sitting on a chair 8+ hours a day and so on play a role as well.
WarViper1337 5y ago
Domesticated live stock is selectively bred to be tame and easy to handle. A side effect of that is the neoteny you speak of.
As far as humans go the reasoning is much more difficult to understand and there is most likely many contributing factors such as the increased levels of plastics in our food, little to no factors that remove the sick and weak allowing them to go on and reproduce, societal factors, and much much more.
dontgiveupcarib 5y ago
I think neoteny plays a part, but there are several other factors. Plastics are one of the biggest factors imo.
Proto_Sigma 5y ago
Human beings have always been comparatively neotonous since we diverged from our common ancestors with the chimps; that comes with higher nueroplasticity and intelligence. Most species learn near all what they need to know when they’re young so keeping that brain structure throughout your whole life has the benefit of boosting your ability to learn throughout your whole life. Most creatures also have an instinct to care for their young; having everyone more resemble their young could perhaps be helpful for building more mutual care and social cohesion (spitballing a bit but it seems reasonable).
I’d wager that rather than selective pressure the introduction of phaetoestrogens and other chemicals to our diets and the increasingly sedentary lifestyles are the main contributors to the recent emasculation of men, with electronic devices near the testes being a small but contributing factor to fertility declines especially.
I’m personally more interested in the increased feminization of men’s correlation with the rise of collectivist and left wing policies since by and large females tend to be more oriented towards the collective while men tend to be more individualistic.
MoDuReddit 5y ago
I stopped on the second paragraph. Artificial selection from a cherry picked population sample (foxes) has very little to do with the fact that humans self-domesticated with their immense abundance (humans getting less developed), or neoteny.
[deleted] 5y ago
Sure, but that was a mere 20 generations of foxes. I suspect that the attempted conclusion is more of a loose warning parable than a scientific correlation:
If we force foxes to fuck for friendliness, how potent is the process, potentially, for people?
MoDuReddit 5y ago
More parable than science, ok.
Not really my cup of tea, too much hamstering for my taste.
[deleted] 5y ago
No, hamsters are a relatively feral rodent, actually.
neltcria 5y ago
Whenever this topic comes up, I never see any studies done on women's hormone changes, if any, through the years. That would be useful information for those who claim that it's soy, or plastics, or birth control chemicals in our water supply.
Yakatonker 5y ago
Correlation =/= Causation.
Its key to remember this is a hypothesis, and should be seen under such a context for it does not ascribe causation and does not even remotely touch on it, or mechanistic factors underlying any such changes. Worse this retarded video linked on disney princesses talks absolutely nothing about human biology. If you want to learn about that there are free courses online from academic institutions.
In terms of known differences, differences in population groups, those exist in the arena of racial demography. This is the realm of Eugenics which is modern day biology.
Human populations are:
Some things for those who're new. We have what are known as "transposable genes" which fall into the new field of epicgenetics, meaning the output of hormones in response to an environment can alter our development, our aptitude, our height. We are even altered in gestation to prime us to respond to environmental stimulus. Famines often cause the children born of such a generation to retain more energy, becoming fatter in times of plenty.
In terms of falling testosterone, the obesity epidemic, the pseudo science being shilled by the overtly corrupt AMA in relation to dietary information is largely causal for this. Not withstanding the deleterious effects of digital gaming, social media on the male psyche and body. By definition, the Western life style that is the average, norm is a regression on our physical health and worse, this is likely by design as a methodology of population control. "Bread and circus for the masses".
In terms of the video linked about disney princesses, that should be blatantly obvious as to why an audience would respond to a younger demographic with enlarged facial features. In terms of character design the head is typically enlarged for the basic fact of communication, ergo larger facial features are much easier for an audience to read, be emotionally empathetic with. Plus disney targets a youth demographic, so a relatable character is obviously going be regressed on.
There's more to address in terms of Eugenics, but the OP don't seem to have a clue, and few in TRP I would assume freely research into this area.
[deleted] 5y ago
OP search “Pottenger’s Cat’s” on youtube.
Verne42 5y ago
It's related to fat and obesity. Fatty tissue transforms testosterone into estrogens. That's all If you get in account that the more prosperous you become, the fatter you get, the T levels falling should be no surprise Check it up
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red_philosopher 5y ago
The real reason why this is happening is probably a combination of factors. Neoteny occurs during selective breeding for docile traits, this coincides with lower androgens. Selective pressure resulting in neoteny. However, secondary-neoteny could easily occur due to a reduction in androgens not due to selective breeding for docile traits, but because of chemical impacts on the endocrine system. If androgens are persistently malaffected, I would expect neoteny to begin expressing itself within a few generations.
With recent discoveries in epigenetics, where chemical impacts on a species can be inherited without affecting the underlying genetic structure, consistent exposure to artificial estrogens lowers androgen production. Via epigenetics, the trait of lower androgen production is being selected for widely, and within generations begins neoteny.
Neoteny is a symptom of a very serious problem, it's just unlikely that it is the result of active selective breeding by the female. Chances are, artificial estrogens in plastics are destroying men, and causing secondary-neoteny of the species over time via epigenetic selection.
swejap 5y ago
Hahaha, this is female projection.
Rupturednutsack 5y ago
The increased usage of soy in any perishable edible product might have something to do with it.
My diet in university was generally appalling, pot noodles (instant dry noodle snack where a major ingredient is.. you guessed it, soy) I was also no stranger to drenching any rice dish that came my way with copious amounts of soy sauce.
Finally I think the shit injected into livestock which is sold worldwide, coupled with their diseased and unhygienic living conditions may have contributed to the lack of lead in a mans pencil.
chrisname 5y ago
The phytoestrogens in soy are largely removed/destroyed in the soy sauce brewing process and it’s not clear that they would actually have an effect anyway (source). Hops contain far more estrogen and it’s not removed or destroyed when you turn them into beer (source). Which is a shame, as somebody who loves hoppy beers.
[deleted] 5y ago
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Rupturednutsack 5y ago
Hearty, healthy food is ridiculously expensive in the UK, the only option is to eat this processed dogshit . Microwave meals have to be one of the worst inventions with regards to our nutrition, look at the ingredients and you will find more chemicals and additives than actual components of the food, ie a curry and rice dish, or a lasagne.
It’s damn near criminal to be pushing this shit, the one time consumerism fucked up something very very important in my opinion
Xogenn 5y ago
Havent used my microwave in like 4 years. Should probably get rid of it.
Rupturednutsack 5y ago
For gods sake man make your own damn meals, at least you know what it actually is. I think university is the final stage in blue pilling a man, because of its strict and biased policy towards masculinity. Every tactic is used, poisoning our food with soy, constant reminders of the plight of women, trans people and homosexuals, all of these committees and societies popping up at the click of a button. Respact Whamen
It used to be that a society needed to provide an actual purpose and had a plan, but most societies now are insta-approved because the university officers who monitor the societies, are scared they are called intolerant.
So small divisions and outright indoctrination is allowed to happen on a daily basis because its progressive and tolerant, almost to the point where if you are white and straight, you owe an apology or have to show some kind of guilt for it. University today is tolerant and inclusive of everybody, and fair also.
Is it fuck.
[deleted] 5y ago
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MoDuReddit 5y ago
Your T will reward you for your effort.
poohead5 5y ago
Try to incorporate as many high quality animal foods as you can. Cholesterol and saturated fats are essential for hormone regulation and production.
Xogenn 5y ago
Yea I've been eating the carnivore diet for 10 months now. Gets a 10/10 from me. Looks on cashiers are nice also when you buy 4kg of meat. :D "You having a grill party?" Haha
Imperator_Red 5y ago
Very good post. Content is a bit over the head of your average red piller though, unfortunately.