I’m a generous guy—not just with women—generous… but not stupid. However, I realize that some of my habits, which I’ve repeated maybe a little too often, create a routine where she expects a certain kind of behavior.
For example, I’ve never met a woman who cooks, so since I like it, I’m happy to do it. The problem is that this creates a sort of imbalance. Sure, we can split the chores, but I don’t think washing dishes even comes close to me doing the grocery shopping, cooking with care, and so on.
Another example is paying when we go out; I want to emphasize that I don’t pay for dinners, but maybe a few drinks—nothing more. However, if this has happened more than once, the girl expects it to keep happening.
I have to be honest—I’m the one who has a hard time breaking this cycle. By now, I feel like there’s this unwritten agreement, and it feels strange to act differently. I have absolutely no idea where to start; maybe my early frame is wrong, or maybe I shouldn’t even be putting myself in these kinds of situations. She’s the one who should be making an effort for me, not the other way around… and I find that the more I keep doing nice things, the more they keep having expectations—nothing new there; TRP explained it to me very well.
So I’m looking for advice on how to avoid finding myself in these situations, and specifically, I’m currently in a situation with a FWB where I’m experiencing the scenarios described above and I want to break out of the loop without pouting
Vermillion-Rx Admin 23h ago
Why are you overthinking this
Vet for women who meet your standards and just don't commit if they fail to meet your expectations
This is a discipline problem and you know it
Why are you acting like there is an ominous force floating your head forcing unfavorable women and imbalance into your life
MatteMatto 15h ago
Cannot argue with that, ty for your time mate
Vermillion-Rx Admin 14h ago
No problem
Some times addressing the direct issue is the best
I think that will be more useful than any other "strategies"
I am very guilty of the same thing
Not having personal standards for xzy bullshit reason
Your post speaks to me
It's okay to spin plates or not commit
As I keep saying this year, I'd rather be a bachelor for the rest of my life than get into the wrong relationship again
mattyanon Admin 11h ago
This is a very definite thing that will happen.
Correct.
Just because you enjoy something doesn't stop it being provider behaviour.
Yes. This is provider behaviour.
Oh, I can sooooooooo relate my dude.
Yes. She has settled into "he pays, he cooks" and she is very happy with this. You have given the impression you are happy with this too.
But why would she?
Yes
Ok, I have a lot to say on this matter, because this reflects my life very very well. I'll probably forget half of it, so please reply and we'll go from there.
mattyanon Admin 11h ago
The main thing that is happening is:
You are early generous but you expect her to pick up her half, and she usually doesn't.
You set a precedent that you feel you have to maintain. You feel you can't break out of it, and you feel she isn't helping.
Male pressure and expectations that you feel from others and her
Her female programming (which comes from wherever, doesn't matter).
Next, some horrible truths for you:
Provider behaviour is provider behaviour. If you're happy about it, it's still provider behaviour. If it's a loss leader then it's still provider behaviour. If you're generous, want to do it, want to smooth things over.......... it's still provider behaviour. This probably happens in other areas: you mentioned cooking and money, but probably also listening to her problems, helping with things, keeping in touch, logistics - you probably do 90% of the work across the board.
mattyanon Admin 11h ago
Right, so solutions. This is going to be hard my dude because it involves identity level change.
With male friends: probably not a big problem. Pull back a bit, do a bit less, let the cards fall where they may. People won't change, you've probably acquired a few sponges, you're going to be slowly fading them out. No harm, no foul, slightly painful, but not too bad.
With new women: you have to lead, women are just like that. But you don't have to pay. You just don't. Paying is actually lying: you are saying "I am happy to pay", but the reality for you is "I am happy to pay but at some point I expect you to start paying". That's a bait and switch, and both you and her are resisting the switch later.
Concrete suggestion is that you pay for the first drink and then you alternate. Established from the very first date. In some bars where you pay as you go this is easy. There is a slight variation where you hand her $20 or your credit card and tell her to go get the next round. You're still paying, but at least she is doing SOMETHING. Try it if this feels like you. It doesn't matter if her drink costs twice as much - you are fairly generous by nature and female accounting counts items and ocurrances - not costs.
Women who want to fuck you are fine with this. Women who want to fuck you actively want to demonstrate that you are not the provider here and will often offer to get the second round of drinks. Sponges will complain. "But you're the man". Straight forward answer is "Look, you're an attractive woman. Lots of men will pay for your company. But I'm not one of them". And then ride out the tension. Don't leave, don't pay. Accept internally that she may just storm out. Great - you've saved yourself the pain of dealing with a sponge who takes everything from you for the next 3 months before you ditch her. She "forgets" her wallet: "No problem, we can reschedule". She doesn't "forget" her wallet when she's out with her friends, she can remember for you. No loans. If she says "I'll make it worth your while", say "Make it worth my while and we'll talk about those drinks". Or do the "I'll pay you walk" thing from above, and have her get all your drinks. You'll look like a god to everyone else in the bar. If she won't pay or walk to the bar, she can find another provider elsewhere. Or reschedule.
mattyanon Admin 11h ago
You'll lose all the sponges this way. You'll lose some of the girls with high provider expectations - but most of those are more or less sponges.
This applies to all other provider behaviours: paying, cooking, listening to her shit. Also the keeping in touch part is tricky. Women can do this very well, you need to set early precedent that she needs to keep in touch because you're not doing it all.
Fundamentally you need to maintain control over your resources. That doesn't mean not sharing them, it means you control them in a way that doesn't destroy relationships. You need to set this early. If you fear that not providing (money, food, listening) will end the relationship, then you've already lost control. Theoretical "I don't have to do this, I can walk anytime" is not relevant. What you want is "I could walk any time and still feel like I got a great deal and wasn't used".
So, control. Don't do generosity all the time. Don't do it on her say-so, ever. Make sure it's visible.
And some way, some how, make it clear that she has to be contributing in some way. Be very, very reserved on everything that either costs you or might look provider-ish.
mattyanon Admin 11h ago
Ok, so what will girls realistically do in a FWB situation. Not everything, so let's be realistic about her contribution: (this is mostly post-sex. pre-sex you are valued at zero, that's just her fucking biology).
You must allow enough of a gap for her to contribute.
You must allow enough of a gap for her to contribute here too.
Again, you must allow enough of a gap for her to do this.
mattyanon Admin 11h ago
Yes again - you need to allow this to happen.
You can't run the whole show, not leave room for her contribution, and then complain that she isn't contributing.
Done well, this means she is either investing (good) or you find out early that she's a sponge (good). You have to allow that you will be losing the sponges early. You have to see this as a good thing.
mattyanon Admin 11h ago
With existing women:
You've set a precedent and they like it. This has sadly devalued you and your efforts. Her cost for your efforts is zero, so you efforts are worth zero. Zero cost things are not appreciated. Some of them will be sponges, this has a 20-50% chance of actually working. Accept that loss going in and plan for it.
You have to break this cycle gradually and specifically.
Cooking: just start increasing her efforts. Find something to balance this, and literally tell her to do it..... start small..... "bring some onions, we'll need them for the lasagne" or whatever. I don't know how to make lasagne. If she doesn't do it: "No problem, I've got some pizza we can reheat".
Sexual escalation: do more forwards/backwards. Kiss, break it off, do something else. See if you can get her to start picking things up, initiating, taking things further. Some women will do this, some won't. If she doesn't, you have to accept her for what she is. You don't have to stick with her, but at some point you got to accept that she is 100% passively receiving with you. Most aren't like that, but some definitely are. Your choice whether to stick around or not if this is the case.
Listening to her shit: You gotta limit this. Best line is "Yeah, that sucks.". This is a fine line: women love to talk things through. But if it's just whining or free counselling, you need to limit that to times and things that really matter. You can just cut her off. "Ok, enough about your problems, let's have fun". If you can't do this, think very carefully about the nature of your relationship with her.
Keeping in touch: Again, tell her and then follow through. If she literally never initiates, end a text stream with "Goodnight, look forward to hearing from you soon". And then literally don't text her again. You have to communicate expectation, and then follow through with giving her enough of a gap to contribute.
This is all about balance. LTR and FWB can absolutely feel fair. Casual encounters and early dates is 99% on you sadly..... but an ongoing thing: you are paying high costs just by sticking around with one (or 2 or 3) woman. She should appreciate it. If she doesn't, that's fine but she's not the girl (or girls) for you.
Ok, I think that's all I've got.
mattyanon Admin 11h ago
Right, so I can't post huge responses and the blog posting isn't working either.
So I've put my responses each as a reply to the previous response. Good luck with the formatting, but I've tried to add a lot of value for you. Try and read it all if you can, easiest on a PC rather than phone, easiest if you look at the whole forum post rather than looking through your reply notifications.
MatteMatto 5h ago
Man, I have no words, first of all ty for your time, there's nothing more to say besides that you have spent a lot trying to help me and this is priceless.
A lot of valueable points, really, but the phrase hit me so hard was:
Unfortunately that's the case and this behavior will stop with her and with the others.
Regarding your suggestions of gradually let make her some efforts, again good point. I thought about another thing and I would love to have a comment on it. Instead of cooking I would like to tell her "I can't make it for dinner, let's see each other later"
mattyanon Admin 2h ago
PS Read up about "Covert Contracts", because this is what you've been doing. It's something a lot of really nice guys do. "I have to be nice up front, I accept that, but I do expect my generosity to be reciprocated eventually".
It's understandable, but you have to understand how it goes wrong. The failure mode is obvious.
The solution:
Continue to give freely with people in general, but filter sponges out of your life and limit your generosity to those who do not reciprocate. Treat it all as a loss leader and as a test. Give freely and happily, then freely and happily cut them out of your life, or impose direct costs on them "Sure, I'll come out, but you're paying this time".
Don't forget that good people want to give too, it's not just you. So let them. And filter the rest out.
And with women and dating: yeah, don't give freely, not at all. It all just counts against you. The more you give, the less you'll be respected and the less sex you'll be having and the longer you'll be waiting for it.. Women are just wired that way.
mattyanon Admin 3h ago
Yeah. You're going to have to create gaps for her to fill, while making it clear that filling them is required, while making it clear you won't be doing it, and all without being too threatening.
It's hard, because your hidden, unstated agenda was "I will do everything at first, you pick up your half later", which to a woman looks a lot like "I will do everything".
Learn to create those gaps, and let the gaps extend a bit. Fill the gaps with other women. She can choose to see you every two weeks (if she does nothing, and eventually she'll be replaced) or once a week but she's gotta ask for it.
Some will learn. Some won't. Abundance somehow some way is the only soluiton. Make her, at some level, compete to be the best thing in your life. If she isn't, then she gets low level occasional scraps and then nothing, and be ok with that.
MatteMatto 1h ago
It seems I'm doing pretty well in some aspects but not in the ones I've mentioned (paying more than I should, cooking, planning etc). For example, I've deployed a method not only with her but in general, that I don't msg often, if I text at all and I'm very disciplined about it. I can tell the same with commitment, as I had a single GF in my entire life (40yo), fucked enough girls but I never gave away commitment, in fact I haven't even lived with a girl.
It's better than nothing, but I'm looking to improve in my weak spots as well
mattyanon Admin 1h ago
If you're not texting at all, then the other person is feeling the burden of relationship management. That's a cost to them that they'll want to extract elsewhere. I'd aim for 60-70% relationship management from her. She should feel that she's doing more than you, but not enough to be a burden.
Living with a girl is fucking awful, don't recommend.
MatteMatto 1h ago
I do text girls but I create a sense of busy (which is completely artificial) and I text not that often and I reply after awhile
Musicgoon78 3 2h ago
You're doing this shit because it's comfortable. You need to make a rule for yourself that says you're going to put in only 30% of the effort and the women you are with need to meet you there.
This is going to be uncomfortable at first and feel foreign, but you need to lean into the discomfort and learn to live with it so you don't end up being a walking ATM or somebody's fucking slave.
You know exactly what you're doing and you know it's not good. So now it's time to be uncomfortable and stop doing it.
Bangkok 11h ago
Start wit a bigger picture
Imbalance, so you will either make yourself 'worse' or 'demand more'.
First why dudes are 'good'? Conditioning. So you feel good in your conditioned skin, it will not be comfortable to change it. All changes are painful.
Would you (the same person) be growing on streets you'd be different.
Some dudes dont want to change away from good, internal dialogue is; i wont change my good standards for a bitch. Often a cope.
Yoy might think there is no good or bad character traits, but those that get you what you want.
In terms of women maybe you dont need to endure the pain of change if you can demand a lot more.
There is a lot more to ask for, but do you have balls to ask for it. Do you treat her like she is a man? Did you ask her to go down on her sister?
First-light 2 10h ago
You can't break a cycle without disruption and you can't end expectations without disappointment.
Try to make it light and simple "I think its your turn to pay this time" "Do you want me to get this round in or shall I get it and you pay me back later?" "Can we go halves on the shopping?"
If this fails, then you may need to a have a conversation but don't get upset with her. Women can't cope with that. They are not getting the tribute to the vagina they thought they deserved and then you are angry too. She pushes back to the rejection not the rationality and fairness of the request and the hamster then often concludes that you must be some silly loser who is being a little bitch not stepping up.
You do need to go gently. You must expect some disappointment and negative impact. You still have to do it to not feel taken advantage of. After all, if you feel that way, your generosity will die off anyway.
mattyanon Admin 6h ago
Actually yes to this, but even slicker.
New girl: "I'll get this one, you get the next one". It's there, up front, and she knows it's coming. She goes into the whole date knowing that there is no provisioning on the table. She can line up her excuses and ammunition or she can say to herself "he's hot, he's worth it".
Established girl: More tricky. You can do the above in bars. If you're paying for meals, just stop fucking doing that shit. Move to cheap / free dates.
Don't ask to go halves on the shopping. In fact never ask a question of a woman ever.
If you live with her and you're paying for shopping, it's time to rethink the whole relationship. That's a full sit-down talk and expect it to go sideways.
If it's casual.... I still wouldn't get her to go halves on shopping for a meal you enjoy together. She's probably got travel costs. Incremental cost of a meal is pretty small when you realise you'll be eating all the left overs and extra stuff you shopped for.
Agreed on going gently and incrementally, but not as asking questions. Never questions. "Maybe you should pay sometimes" will be met with "Of course!" and then not doing. It has to be small, specific, incremental, and holding your ground.
It usually fails because you have been devalued by your own previous efforts, so "Same deal, but now you start paying" looks shitty to her. Had she valued you more highly from the start then maybe she'd put more in.
SeasonedRP 2 1h ago
Are you having sex with any of these girls? It sounds like girls who aren't into you are using you for free drinks and meals. Learn to screen women better and avoid those types. If you've never met a woman who cooks, you need to meet better quality women. That can be your initial screening method. If she doesn't cook--Next.
MatteMatto 1h ago
Yep, I'm not a provider in general, yes I could have some behaviors like paying too much, or something else, but I don't pay for anything if I don't fuck the girl