Hi everyone
I met a girl we will call her "kenyan girl" for the first time. We got a drink in a pub with her kissed her a load then walked her back to her home I talked my way inside and was kissing her hot and heavy. We were in the kitchen I tried to escalate then her housemates walked in the kitchen. Kenyan girl kept saying I better catch a train home which I did eventually without fucking her.
It seems that was a considerable lack of privacy due to it being a houseshare. I did try to escalate a number of times got as far as starting to take off her bra but she refused.
My first question is would you have tried harder to escalate in those circumstances or consider it best to try again another day instead? She did tell me to leave a number of times in a "soft" way by saying I should get the train home but that could have been a shit test I guess.
My second question is I tried to arrange another "date" and she said "haha.. like you didnt like it (inside joke) and I could be free maybe wednesday though I could't be sure now" so I guess my best strategy is to see other women (I have a few lined up) and go silent for now on this Kenyan and see how it pans out?
Attempt to answer own questions:-
Question 1
I guess I could have tried to take her out of the kitchen into her bedroom but she had already resisted multiple escalation attempts from me and repeatedly said that I should figure out how to get home so I put it down as not great logistics / timing. If I had pushed her too hard it may have backfired but I suppose you will say I should have tried to escalate further regardless as she wouldnt let a guy in her house that she wasnt interested in. Maybe I should have escalated until she outright said no and insisted I leave?
Question 2
I'm not impressed with her "maybe" answer regarding meeting again but I can go silent now and see what happens (text messaging will be logistics only no conversations)
Of course I will contine to message and meet other women in the meantime I already have multiple lined up almost too many in fact I need a calendar to keep track.
P.S for clarity I should say that I have never previously mentioned this girl on here.
mattyanon Admin 4h ago
In the kitchen? With housemates? I don't blame her.
The trick here is to take her seriously, start packing up, start leaving, and then go back in for "one more kiss", along with "Yeah, I've only got a few minutes"
You want to disarm her "will this guy ever leave", without leaving.
Ok, a few things to unpack here.
By saying not sure, she is taking a step back, so you have to take a step back, eg "yeah.... I've got something on Wednesday, sounds like we're both pretty busy".
The point is: she steps back, YOU step back. Not permanently, but when she takes a position of "mayyyyyyyyyyybe", then you need to avoid being the chaser as that puts you lower value than her. Solution: verbally reduce your commitment and imply you have other things going on (don't state them).
Second thing: never agree to the next date straight away. Date..... then leave it a few days. I know your instinct is to lock in "nearly sex, therefore sex next time", but this sort of thing comes across as needy and really you want her to be a bit unsure, a bit uncertain. She wants to be terrified of losing you, not certain of the next date.
You don't have to ignore her for three days, but definitely don't agree to seeing her again straight away.
always!
Never passive.
Think more like....... unpredictable / teasing. Sometimes reply straight away. Sometimes busy for 36 hours. Lead her on a bit emotionally...... chances are she needs it to feel fully attracted.
Typo-MAGAshiv Endorsed Contributor 2d ago
First situation: it's hard to tell for sure based on just text, but my inclination is that she wasn't that interested. Women will move mountains to fuck the men they want to fuck.
Sure, it may have just been LMR. you may have been able to push past it (much has been written on this topic), but I always had a more enjoyable time with women who wanted me just as much as I wanted them.
Second situation: a good rule of thumb that served me was that anything other than a "hell yes" is a "no".
Note that this is a rule of thumb, and not a commandment etched into stone.
Musicgoon78 3 2d ago
I'm going to slightly disagree with you here not because what you said isn't true, but because if the logistics of the situation. If it is all girl roommates she has a lot to lose socially. Girls can be malicious in these cases.
A guy brings a chick back to his room, something happens and his guy roommates are giving him high fives.
I'm betting in this case it was more saving face than an attraction issue.
Farang131 1d ago
But if that was the case she would want to meet me again right but she doesnt
Typo-MAGAshiv Endorsed Contributor 2d ago
The possibility of not wanting her housemates to think of her as a slut occurred to me too, but given OP's replies to both of us, I think I was right.
The important things are that a) we'll never know for sure, b) the outcome was the same either way, and c) hopefully he learns to calibrate his escalations better in the future
Farang131 1d ago
She did ask us to go to a booth so we can kiss in a more private setting so she was into me somewhat to ask that.
Farang131 2d ago
Thats a fair comment. At the start of the date she said "I was making her uncomfortable" when I tried to kiss her. I got though that and we ended up kissing and touching loads and she said she wanted to come to my place another day so I thought she was interested but as we know what women say can be very different to what they want.
I thought because we kissed and she even stripped for me a little bit it meant she was interested but that may not be the case.
Yes I guess I should maybe have tried to move it to another room. I was trying to kiss her and escalate enough for there to be no time for last minute rejection but like you say I dont want to "pressure her" into it too much for my enjoyment and well as ethical and legal considerations. There is LMR but there is also excessive pressure etc to consider.
She did say she had only ever been with 1 other guy so that may contribute to LMR however it may well be total B.S and I'm sure most men here would call B.S on it.
Thats a good way to look at it yes.
It's definately a "hell no" now because she just sent me this:- "Hey..you seem like a cool person but I don't think I'll pursue this anymore...I have been thinking about the date and there are just some things that don't sit right with me now I wish you well" - I think translated this means I've got tons of other men lined up on the app and you arent in the top percent.
Obviously I will leave her on read I will not answer that as there is nothing for me to reply to it.
I appreciate your answer its good to think that she simply wasnt into me rather than I made some kind of tactical mistake that makes me feel much better about it.
I do have a load of other women lined up its just easy for me to get oneitis regardless.
Typo-MAGAshiv Endorsed Contributor 2d ago
LMR is Last Minute Resistance, not Last Minute Rejection.
@Musicgoon78 might be right. We'll never know for sure.
But try to calibrate your escalations. Back before Red Pill, PUA stuff frequently said "initiate, isolate, and escalate".
The "isolate" step is important, and you skipped it.
My thinking is, if she were really into you, she'd have helped that process along. Women who were into me made things easier, especially the isolation part.
Women remove barriers for men they want. They emplace barriers for men they don't.
Yours seemed indifferent. Had you been more patient, who knows? However, again, my thinking is that anything less than genuine mutual desire isn't worth my effort.
Farang131 1d ago
More patient how? I was told always try to escalate on the first meeting so thats what I did.
Its funny because during our conversation she said something about rules and I wispered in her ear let me tell you a secret women break the rules for guys that they really like.
Yes I agree she may have helped me slightly if she were into me or at least agreed to meet again.
Musicgoon78 3 1d ago
Look brother, trp aren't tenants for how to live your life, we give you tools. You need to use the right tools for the right job but also read the situation. Escalation is great, but sometimes you're going to have to leave it as teasing. This is push/pull. You pull her in and subtly push away.
Typo-MAGAshiv Endorsed Contributor 1d ago
This right here.
Typo-MAGAshiv Endorsed Contributor 1d ago
Wait for housemates to leave, and/or figure out a way to get her alone.
Yes, but you still need to read the situation you're in and calibrate accordingly.
You don't just walk up to a hot chick and whip out your dick, right?
Don't talk about this shit with women, especially the ones you're hoping to fuck.
Farang131 1d ago
Thats fair enough it did come up naturally in conversation because she was talking about a book she was reading called pussy power but I take your point regardless.
This was late at night they were not going anywhere but yes I could have tried to move it into another room I agree. If I happened to be that situation again I would try to play it differently for sure I had never been in that situation before so was a bit phased by it.
Oh 1OO% I understand you it was late at night end of the night and she said I should figure out my journey home so I figured it was a "now or never kind of thing"
Typo-MAGAshiv Endorsed Contributor 1d ago
We all get caught flat-footed occasionally. Just be ready to think and adapt.
If she's trying to get you to leave, you're better off just going. At least that was my experience. YMMV.
Farang131 1d ago
Yeah understood but I thought it might be last minute resistance / a shit test. I did leave eventually
Vermillion-Rx Admin 2d ago
Why would you try to escalate in an area you can't fuck in. Major rookie mistake. That only ever hurts you tremendously
As @Typo-MAGAshiv said if she wanted to fuck you she would have or brought you into her room. You should take women to your place. They generally put out far more easily on your territory than theirs (even when YOU have housemates).
I have met very few women who are okay with fucking around their housemates. They always get upset about it but those same women have almost zero qualms fucking me at mine. Same women, not different women.
I have had women only put out on a second date/meet. A lot of girls just have "that rule". Often times the second they came over the second time they were trying to fuck. Meaning they wanted to the first time but for whatever reason they want to see that you maybe won't ghost them etc. maybe they just need the story to their friends and family that they didn't just fuck a guy the first time
Not all girl game is just fucking a guy they want to fuck. A lot of girl game is managing their expectations and making sure they won't be pumped and dumped. You guys overthink the fuck out of a lot of girl game or don't seem to treat women like they even have girl game
Yes, women who are extremely high interest will fuck you to make sure they don't miss out or get rejected, this often requires other factors to line up in your favor (no I'm not going to describe them I don't want people mentally masturbating over endless factors)
If you enjoyed being around her make a second meet on your territory. If you didn't enjoy her time don't bother. If you're not planning on marrying a chick don't obsess over if she fucked you same night or second night and definitely stop making plans on women's turf unless they live alone
Farang131 2d ago
Thank you to you and everyone else for the replies.
Fair point my place is temporaily off limits due to building works going on. I did invite her over to my town but she was a bit reluctant and given my building works I decided I would meet her in her town instead but I agree I should improve this situation.
In my defence I didnt know she had housemates until we met I thought she might live alone.
Anyway there wont be a next time as she sent this:-
Hey..you seem like a cool person but I don't think I'll pursue this anymore...I have been thinking about the date and there are just some things that don't sit right with me now I wish you well" - I think translated this means I've got tons of other men lined up on the app and you arent in the top percent.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 2d ago
You're welcome. Thanks for following posting requirements
No I think she thought you were pushy. Like I said trying to fuck you when you cannot fuck or she doesn't want to only ever fucks you over
Women will not blame you for trying to fuck but they will blame you for not taking no or not yet for answer
It is incredibly easy to fuck women who are already making out with you if you remove all the barriers there are to them not fucking you
Hence why you shouldn't even bother trying to fuck them unless you have virtually no actual barriers to them fucking you (a messy place is not a barrier to them fucking you unless it's actually disgusting)
Farang131 1d ago
There was a long train journey back to my place a hotel probably would have been the best option at that point. Yes I think she thought I was too pushy.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 1d ago
Man if the logistics are ass I don't even bother. It's completely okay to screen for this stuff.
I've seen a lot of men struggle to close purely because the girl was too far away to begin with. Life is really easy when you stick to women who conform to and are able to participate in good logistics
If you were running a business would be making long trips for unclear business deals or short trips for surefire or very hopeful deals?
Too many guys do not run their dating life like a business. It really isn't all that different
Farang131 1d ago
Good point I need to sort my apartment and get women to meet me in my home town thats half the battle won I think.
If I meet her in her hometown the logistics are somewhat a mystery I cant ask her if she lives alone if we have just matched on an app as that is a creepy question. I suppose I could always ask on the date itself and go the hotel route instead if we arent close to mine.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 1d ago
I forgot how I used to find out early. Just ask them when the pull us being discussed
Farang131 2d ago
She actually told me her housemates would tease her so I said "oh cool they can do it before I leave and I'll join in"
Vermillion-Rx Admin 2d ago
Right so you were never going to be able to hit it at her place. You should have waited till you could hit it.
You can ask them if they live alone before you go over. I always ask them if they "live with anyone"
This sounds cringey and overcomplicated
"They're just jealous" would have been perfect. If she still didn't bite you should have had her over at yours. As long as the construction crew isn't at your place and your room or wherever you fuck isn't a construction mess then they are generally still fine with it if they like you. I think you bungled it. She was fine with going to yours
Farang131 1d ago
Yes but she only said that once I was already there so it was too late.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 1d ago
Man it is unbelievably difficult and frustrating responding to you
You are fixated in minute excuses and exceptions
Does not matter. She gave you too much resistance at her place. It doesn't matter when she did it and if you wanted a shot you should have acted differently
Farang131 1d ago
Sorry I was just trying to explain for context.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 1d ago
I'm merely pointing out that you are not helping yourself on your game journey by doing that
Once you have established that the broader point contained a game error, seeking additional explanation or excuse is not only pointless but actually counterproductive
By seeking micro excuses wh the something didn't work you are training your brain to eliminate routes for success and over-learning what "doesn't work"
All you're going to do is teach yourself that women who would have otherwise fucked you were never viable to begin with because you've already trained yourself to look for obstacles and excuses for oddly specific situations
Learn from the broader point, you are quite literally not helping yourself
It's fine to micro-analyze AFTER you have all the basics down for tiny little nuances but doing that at your current game sense (intermediate at best, often beginneresque in a lot of your posts) is only going to teach you all the wrong takeaways
Stop trying to have sage wisdom and learn the basics first
Farang131 1d ago
I understand thank you for your input.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 1d ago
You're welcome
Farang131 2d ago
Yes I did consider saying they're just jealous. This was late and night it was too late to bring her back to mine. I dont think she would have been willing to go anywhere with me that night.
I will be honest my place is a disaster zone right now completely unsuitable to take her to it would have to be a hotel instead. Obviously I will fix the issues at my place but for now its 1OOO% a no go.
I guess trying to go to a hotel is hard because it sets an expectation. Going to my place is much more casual with plausable deniability.
Farang131 2d ago
Fair enough last time I was torn to shreds for not trying to escalate and waiting so I wanted to make sure I tried to this time but I didnt appreciate it would be much harder to do at her place and that she had housemates.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 2d ago
So go with a hotel if you must and just say your house is otherwise great but that there is construction
As long as you give an actual reason and they don't just think it's because you live with your parents or an embarrassing dump then they'll accept temporary restrictions
They care about the experience, not s momentary constraint
Most of these women are not looking for their husband on a dating app
Farang131 2d ago
I'll be honest due to depression and also due to storing tons of stock in my small studio apartment hapazardly it is a real dump but I am going to fix that I've started working on it tonight.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 2d ago
They don't care if it's a studio, they care if it looks okay.
Farang131 2d ago
Fair enough mate the garden and outside looks ok inside is overrun with stock and rubbish but im going to fix that
Farang131 1d ago
I understand mate but it doesnt look even remotely ok I will fix it though.
Farang131 2d ago
I dont think that particular girl would have gone with me anywhere but I take your point.
It's a studio apartment and honestly It is an embarrasing dump at the moment but only because its temporarily messy.
Am I right in thinking its harder to get them to a hotel than to my own place? It seems a lot less smooth to say lets go to a hotel than lets get a drink at mine.
She claimed she was looked for a husband of course like they all do but yes I agree probably not in reality.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 2d ago
It's awkward going to a hotel but her place wasn't going to work and yours was not viable. Beggers can't be choosers
I think you had a shot with her based on her makeout behavior. You seem to not think you have a chance with viable women.
She wasn't looking for a husband. They say they do but nearly every guy they meet on an app will at best end up being a placeholder boyfriend while they look for someone they actually want long term
App girls are sluts
Farang131 2d ago
The makeout behaviour was intense yes but I'm not sure how comfortable she was with me in general. I dont think she would have agreed if I had said lets go to a hotel but who knows.
Its hard to explain but it seemed like she was "just going along with things" rather than being into me a lot but maybe I'm only saying that in heinsight.
Would you tell her that you're taking her to a hotel or just say come on lets go and walk to one without saying anything.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 2d ago
Learn from your mistakes so you can actually see what works
Farang131 2d ago
Ok fair enough mate.
Farang131 2d ago
Why wouldnt they get the highest quality man possible from an app and make him a LTR? Would that not be an effective method for them?
Vermillion-Rx Admin 1d ago
You assume WANT and CAN have reasonable overlap and they don't
Commitment is a man's gift
Farang131 1d ago
Yes fair point mate.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 2d ago
Did you read what you just typed
Highest quality man, app
Bold of you to assume women can just get LTRs from any quality man they want
Typo-MAGAshiv Endorsed Contributor 2d ago
We've been known to slum it a bit!
Farang131 2d ago
So you're saying high quality men arent on the app? Fair enough.
My thinking was seeing as they have access to 1OOOS of men on the app they might be able to sift though and find a quality one.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 1d ago
No I never said that. I said high quality men aren't just settling for app hoes.
It's bold of you to assume women can just command quality men to commit after they spread their legs for a guy fucking tons of app sluts who all want him to o commit
Farang131 1d ago
Ok fair enough although a man has no way to know if a girl he meets at work or at the gym, book club etc is on apps as well. He might have no idea what shes up to.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 1d ago
It's not very hard to find out if a girl is on apps. They are piss poor at hiding it
Stop overthinking. You are looking for the most minute little exceptions to what I'm saying
It's completely pointless
Farang131 1d ago
I do tend to overthink its not on purpose sorry about that.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 1d ago
You can fix if you choose to
Splitting hairs is absolutely pointless if you haven't mastered the bsdics
Farang131 1d ago
Okay noted.
First-light 2 2d ago
Last time I heard, it was still a bad thing to be a slut in Kenya (unlike in the west where it is cool and emancipated). That means that even the sluts don't want to be seen slutting. There are some massive Kenyan sluts but they are relatively discrete (they love being taken to hotels, particularly in other towns). Other girls just need a bit more time. Even then they will not want to be seen with a man by anyone who knows their family or close friends unless that man is a suitor not just a boyfriend. A man is usually only introduced to parents when he has already agreed to marry her. This introduction can be quite formal and involve the discussion of bride price.
So if she is a slut take her elsewhere. If she is an ordinary girl give her more time.
Bear in mind that, since slutting is not cool, even sluts do not want the men they slut with to know they are sluts. A Kenyan girl should not be seen to be too keen to start. Kenyan men chase hard and spend liberally. If she gives you nothing to chase she is too easy by Kenyan standards. "No" usually means "later if you have proved you are keen".
Farang131 2d ago
Thanks for your reply I got a clear a no message from her when trying to meet her again she said
"Hey..you seem like a cool person but I don't think I'll pursue this anymore...I have been thinking about the date and there are just some things that don't sit right with me now. I wish you well" so there is no point in persuing it after a message like that right?
It would be pointless to persure her at this point right? Or would you call it giving up if I didnt answer her?
First-light 2 1d ago
I think you are right to say "Next!" Unless you want to be a genuine suitor to this girl, leave well alone or you will create misery for two. If I had to guess she didn't want the sexual pressure that early and fears it again. She obviously liked you as she kissed you but she didn't want a man looking for a one night stand.
Being a slut is not cool in Kenya. There are some massive sluts in Kenya but there are also a lot more girls who want a husband far more than a one night stand. Kenya is sexually liberated but with more traditional aims. What goes in the west doesn't quite go in Kenya but its close enough that you might think you knew what was happening only to realise later you did not. You can go to Nairobi and meet sophisticated sluts and think you are in the west but these girls are not the norm (and trust me the relationships with them won't be as you expect). The average Kenyan girl doesn't want to ride the carousel, this means that some specialists get good remuneration for it (almost never formally agreed but believe me there will be remuneration).
Try to imagine the west pre the 60's morally but sexually much more liberated. Kenya never got 100s of years of the Christian church making them ashamed of being sexual but they still had a solid patriarchy that didn't like sluts. So you do get pre marital sex and extra marital sex but there are also very much good girls and bad girls and even if you are a bad girl you still usually want people to think you are good. If you are a good girl you can be fooled by scoundrels so you need to be wary (plenty still get fooled but they will be fooled with good intentions -losing control and going too far too soon with a man they hoped was serious not just riding the carousel).
I am an older generation and things may have changed a little but I I have Kenyans in and out of my house every week and they still sound the same to me in the things they say. I think she had you down for a charming scoundrel. Probably right too.
Farang131 1d ago
This could well be true as I tried to kiss her quite quickly and she said "you're making me uncomfortable" eventually she warmed up but she did keep telling me to slow down.
It was a "date" from an app and I was told you have to try and close on the first date otherwise they will simply just move onto the next guy so that was my strategy.
Tell me more about this as one of my concerns in Asia and Africa is prostitues that dont tell you they are until after thats awkward and annoying as well.
Doesnt the fact she was on a dating app prove shes a slut rather than a good girl?
First-light 2 1d ago
Kenya is very blue pill as is most of Sub-saharan Africa. Men are strong provider figures. Women will be submissive. They may well tolerate polygamy but whatever the relationship, they expect to be rather actively cared for in return. Listen to Kenyan radio if you want to understand how it works. The female callers they have on there are quite frightening.
Women expect that overt value will flow to them from relationships -good girls as well as bad girls. If you are dating her, she will hope that you will eventually pay her rent or bills or shopping or give her a car or all of the above. Sluts can have 5 or so guys all doing this at once! Kenyan government can't seem to run sewerage and water systems side by side but a Kenyan slut can juggle a roster of half a dozen providers almost faultlessly! They are sluts but they are not as casual as our sluts and they expect value to be financial as well as time and energy. Then there are prostitutes, some professional who negotiate prices up front but some whores are quite amateur -they are known bad girls, they seek men -on apps and in bars and they expect to be compensated for one night stands even if they do not actually name a price. Some Kenyan women who come to the west learn to accept we don't do it quite the same way but they are not happy inside about it. Its not their expectation.
You may get many initial claims to the contrary but a good Kenyan girl expects her boyfriend to expect to pay for everything for her and she will chip in where she likes and expect him to call it generosity. Don't assume that this is because you are white and being taken advantage of. The black Kenyan guys will probably have to work harder as they don't have the excuse and attraction of a different nationality. Teaching a Kenyan woman that "We don't do it that way in the west" is possible but its painful on both sides and both sides probably feel a bit unloved.
Note: there are many different tribes in Kenya and it is a mistake to lump them all together as "Kenyans are like that" but for simplicity here I have. If you have a specific tribe you want to enquire about I could be more specific.
To filter for prostitutes, I would ask them what they are looking for. "Friends" is almost certainly a whore. "A friend" and "friendship" are likely so too. "LTR or marriage" is someone who wants to be seen as good, is looking for a proper relationship, even if not necessarily marriage and won't expect money directly for sex in most cases. But be wary you still might get surprises if you have not talked about these things first. I have had more than one incident of hearing young professional women trying to counsel a friend who is disturbed that her black Kenyan boyfriend is not paying every time he puts it in. The debate has been whether paying once for the night is OK or if he wants a "second round" on the same night he pays again. I have also heard newly wed women asking their friends if its OK if the man is not paying every time now they are married! (The answer is by the way usually "if he has paid the full bride price don't be silly, but if he has not you can make him pay if you want until he has taken all those cows to your father"). These have been legit questions from normal women who have finished school and sometimes university. Their friends have been amused by them but they were real questions.
It might look the same but its not underneath.
Musicgoon78 3 2d ago
Escalating in front of a roommate is just bad logistics. She doesn't want to come off like a ho in front of a roommate. Trying to escalate harder is a really bad move. That's how you get on a predator list.
This is called giving up. It's one of the dumbest ideas you could have. Find your courage and ask her again. And yes, do keep your options open.
As far as what happened, who knows. It's a waste of time to play guessing games,. Don't close the door on this and don't cut off other opportunities either.
Farang131 2d ago
I dont think I explained myself well I escalated then when she resisted I cooled off and started escalating again. I try to be very aware of boundaries, consent etc.
I did ask her to meet again and she said no so it would be weak and pointless to chase at this point right?
This is the last few messages between us
[30/04, 15:48] Me - So how much did they tease you ?
[30/04, 16:51] Her: Oooh, so much I am wallowing in humiliation now????
[30/04, 18:23] Me Mission accomplished.
What days are you free next week?
[30/04, 18:30] Her: Depends why you're asking siree
[30/04, 18:47] Me: For us to meet of course...as long as you promise to go easy on the strangling and domination (inside joke)
[30/04, 18:54] Her: Haha..like you didn't like it???? and I could be free maybe wednesday though I couldn't be sure now
[30/04, 21:51] Her:: Hey..you seem like a cool person but I don't think I'll pursue this anymore...I have been thinking about the date and there are just some things that don't sit right with me now
[30/04, 21:51] Her: I wish you well
It would be pointless to persure her at this point right? Or would you call it giving up if I didnt answer her?