My Ltr (23) texted me saying she wants to attend some event on Friday night. Says that she would like to meet up with me after. I don’t know whether this was real or a shit test but I got passive and just said okay. She acted surprised and texted Okay? I put my phone down and went to the gym. Came back to 3 missed calls from her. Apparently, she was calling to say goodnight. Naturally I acted cold, we had a weird conversation and I hangup on her. Then I texted telling her not to come after her concert.
Could I have handled this better? She knows I don’t support her being out at night or around alcohol without me. Never had these problems because she’s not a party girl, but I know two of her friends and classmates had a birthday this week and it could be about that.
MentORPHEUS Senior Endorsed 3y ago Stickied
IDK if there are cultural differences at play here, but from my USA perspective this sounds like an exhausting level of micromanaging and maybe even controlling. Is she supposed to just sit home knitting till it's time to go over to your place? Do you not trust her to step out into the world at all without a chaperone?
Not every concert is a bacchanal of booze and sex. Big concerts might draw thousands of women who have boyfriends that enjoyed the concert and nothing more and later went home to them.
IDK why you automatically framed it as a shit test, either. She TOLD you what she intended to do and that she wanted to come to you afterward. I would have taken this as a blessing! You have the evening free to do as you please, and your GF coming over to presumably spend the night with you at the end of it. You're not stuck going to see a band you don't particularly want to, or coming up with something else for her to do in lieu of going to that event if you had specific reasons about that event to justify putting your foot down.
If it were me, I would have asked about what time she expected to be over afterward, told her "Have fun!", then continued about the relationship as normal. If it was a girl I couldn't trust to conduct herself properly away from me for one evening, I wouldn't invest more than "fuck buddy" importance to her in the first place.
w4iks 3y ago
I’m not from the USA so there might be a few cultural differences. The girl stays with her parents and even they don’t allow to be outside past 8pm. Also, I do allow her to go out and have fun if it sounds reasonable. She told me on Monday that she wanted to go bowling with her friends and I’m okay with that. Picnics with her friends, that’s fine. Concerts are more controlled here but it still doesn’t sit well with me dating a “party girl”. The reason I thought it might be a shit test is because she knows it’s something I wouldn’t accept, and her surprise when I said okay.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 3y ago
Makes more sense now that OP doesn't live in the USA. In the USA this strategy would fail immediately
Durek_The_Bald 3y ago
Wholeheartedly agree.
Dxmx99 3y ago
I myself do that whole cold act when I'm pissed off and feeling insecure. It's defensive, it's not productive, and above all it's not Alpha(attractive nor arousing)
Save the weird cold attitude for an actual problem. If she cheats, etc
Let her go to the concert. Hold frame, be cool, "text me later to let me know you're safe " and then ignore her for the rest of the night.
Let her come over and check her attitude. Is she being weird? Red flag. Next.
w4iks 3y ago
Lol I naturally go cold when things are not going as I expected, some time cutting communication for days. What is more alpha way to deal with issues that are not big enough to deserve a nuke? I did allow her to go as long as she’s home by midnight.
Dxmx99 3y ago
It would be best to be positively indifferent and have an abundance mentality when it comes to any situation because AWALT.
Look up the GNO by Rational Male, it will give you an idea how to conduct yourself for her going out alone.
Now, it's okay to have boundaries too. My girl wouldn't go to clubs without me, and I would tell her that. If she does, she's not going to be my girl much longer.
SSeuSS 3y ago
THIS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcPhg7oauE0
And probably this but unsure. Either way won't harm: https://youtu.be/xRr8I8fEGN8
whytehorse2021 3y ago
Lol I do that with my wife all the time. Maybe it's cause Apex and I both had military training. It's not some secret he invented. You either learn to do this in the military or you catch hell from everyone. I could probably teach you guys all kinds of shit I learned from interrogators and forensic psychologists. Fresh(Myron) was an interrogator, he has some good tips.
SSeuSS 3y ago
I post Apex quite often as I resonate with his vids a lot.
I used LUCA to rather good extent in my life not knowing what I was doing , so I was not performing on the same level at all times probably.
I guess not after all it's all kind of logical if you don't get emotional, but then you have also the step where you got to be a leader in partnership and that might be amiss for new generations. He explained it well.
whytehorse2021 3y ago
Well yeah it all depends on what stage you're at in life and the message being communicated. I'm 48 and mostly listen to guys in my age range like Rollo, Joker, Mike Sartain, Aaron Clarey, etc. They all kinda have similar messages and come from a similar time era.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 3y ago
I mean....
The fact that she wanted to meet you after meant she wasn't going home with some random concert boy
I really think that exchange and fallout you had over that was completely unnecessary from a frame standpoint.
You would have been better served getting some information about the concert that how you responded. Could have also met up with her after the concert and vibe checked how the night was so that you could make informed choices about how you wanted to procede
I'd be a lot more worried about a girl's night than a music concert man. Now if she were going to one out of state/road trip/overnight without you, or whatever I'd be sweating over that
This just reads as an unecessary series of plays on your part that was far less effective than just opting to vet the situation with good frame
w4iks 3y ago
I understand my reaction and frame could have been better and I need to work on that. However, we have an agreement that she can’t be out at night without me or her family. There’s also a probability that she’s going with her big sister. How do I go about this, given that I’ve already closed communication? She’s a quiet feminine girl so I know she’ll just go back to her shell.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 3y ago
Apart from the obvious that there are better ways to handle this in the future,
You could reach out to her and tell her you want to still see her that night. This is a case where I think you have to take it on the chin and be amenable.
You are either left with making a concession or doubling down in this case. You don't want to be in situations like this.
You have two lose lose choices in hoping that she overlooks it
You could have a reasonable conversation about what happened but like it was avoidable to begin with, that's the problem
You have to pick between the lesser of two evils when you have a mess on your hands.
w4iks 3y ago
What if I lay out my expectations (Again!) and tell her to come straight to my place instead of going to the concert? I don’t like a situation where I’m making it okay to break the boundaries I put in place. I feel like it will start out like this, I give her an inch and she takes a mile. Had I told her not to go without all the drama, she would have agreed.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 3y ago
Okay. The problem here dude is that your "rule" and "expectation" naturally captures a lot of benign harmless activities in it as well the ones you don't want her to do.
I don't think ball and chain "rules" will keep a woman in check. It will always result in arguments and betrayal. There are reasonable checks and balances and then there are "this benign outing is a deal-breaker" to me
You need to remember that sloots gonna sloot. You should be more preoccupied with vibe-checking your girls and catching on to what they're up to than you are with controlling every facet of their life. Because people can just lie man. Your rules can be tight as shit but don't matter in the face of simply ignoring your rules.
That's why I'm not trying to argue that you double down. All these air-tight rules do is encourage women to lie. If you have a solid woman she's not going to fuck another dude at a concert.
I highly doubt the don't go to the concert play will work out dude. I don't think your expectations worked to begin with. Your rules should be more malleable than this or you're just going to be one of those guys that finds out his girl is banging some dude during the middle of the day because you forbade her from going out
There are expectations and then there is a fundamental destruction of freedom that they feel you're inflicting that causes lying and backstabbing. Men forget women can just lie to get around air-tight restrictions, hence they are only as powerful as her will to lie and evade telling you the truth
..
I would recommend that you actually make reasonable rules and where there are gray zones establish more transparency.
Men can't control women, it's fantastic in theory but it's shit in practice. You need to be better at getting the truth and discouraging disloyalty than slapping down the law and praying for loyalty. Shit doesn't work in reality man and you need to realize that
[deleted] 3y ago
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Vermillion-Rx Admin 3y ago
Yeah I think some girls freak out when their guy goes beta for the first time, or if she's genuinely into you but you've never clamped down and she just can't feel it
Had a fantastic date with this chick one time and then she told me her personality was too strong for mine and that she needs someone who is more forceful. Lol, one and only time but yeah
Definitely. I've probably seen close to the full range of faithfulness when I go out
1) The chicks that can and do cheat on their guy in a heartbeat because that's what they came out for that night
2) are open to cheating/branching for the right guy
3) will escalate with and save a guys number for later in case her current relationship doesn't work out at some point
4) will flirt and escalate for fun but you'll never get anything out of her
5) will get attention and manipulate men for free drinks
6) will flirt a bit but then say she has a bf and try to be your friend
7) will shut down convo pretty fast with the boyfriend line
8) will basically say she has a bf almost immediately or hee friends will the second you walk up and don't even have a chance to talk
9) she says "no thank you" the second you walk up
10) ignores you completely
11) doesn't go out at all
w4iks 3y ago
This is the insight I needed. How about I navigate this by checking the context and try be more flexible? I think my ego is more invested in this than it is about the concert.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 3y ago
I think a few things are going on here, ego being one of them. I think you should make amends with your girl even if you have to make up some bullshit about you being in a weird mood or something that takes blame off yourself.
Or "a lot of weird stuff happens at concerts" or something.
But yeah. She's going to do what she's going to do. Aim to set up expectations she'll actually follow and that actually prevent the things you're actually bothered by.
It's fine to tell them WHY you don't want them to do something if it's reasonable.
Like for example, I've seen so many guy's girlfriends go to the club I always go to. And the amount of interactions I've had with them where I don't even know they have a bf till after some semi-cheating flirting is ridiculous.
My problem with a girl going out by herself (and her friends) is moreso not that I don't want her going out. It's that I don't want her to be in situations where she allows that kind of bullshit to happen.
I would expect a girl I'm seeing to immediately let a guy know she's taken the second he offers a drink, starts touching her, etc. And to call me if it persists or something.
If she's going out with specific terrible women and stuff that would be a vetting fail on your part. There are a lot of things men wouldn't have to control in their woman if they simply vet for a woman that doesn't do certain shit to begin with
That's more realistic than trying to prevent her from cheating with an iron fist.
w4iks 3y ago
We did talk and I shifted blame on bad communication on her part. Apparently a set of twins she goes to school with have a birthday tomorrow. They guilt tripped her into going and got her a ticket. She said she wouldn’t go if I didn’t want her to. I told her to go but to be at my place by midnight. Only downside is that I’m stuck with her the whole weekend.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 3y ago
This is better than nothing but also why you should do a bit of questioning before reacting as a man. You really never know
And oh well, make sure she drains your balls. Find fun stuff to do outside of the house in between sex
w4iks 3y ago
I’ll learn to be more calm instead of jumping to my guns the minute my view are threatened.
Will definitely do. I never slack on the sex, it’s a tool of control. Few orgasms in and she will apologize without me even bringing it up. Thanks for all the sound advice, I could have fucked it up
Vermillion-Rx Admin 3y ago
All good man, enjoy getting your balls drained and hearing her apology
Yeah dude, a lot misconception on here is that men have to be "muh alpha" about everything.
Might work with a complete submissive girl with huge psych problems, but not most women
SSeuSS 3y ago
Yeah, happens all the time, even between 9-10am including getting to place.
IMO there is long game where you check the girl vibe and drop her when crossing boundaries, being bitchy etc, but nothing very specific just assuming something is off as became more problem in life then benefit. Then informed game where actual tapping in, into some communications is available. Even if she is hiding [and has smething to hide] she'll make a mistake and message at some point new dude. I like both where possible. Information always was excellent commodity if overload will be avoided.
Long game will work on 'genuine' girls but could fail or take a lot of time on women that want to get result, for example marriage and will play good girl game for long enough [newly trads], while informed game is based on facts.
I'd ask her to post picture to her open social media profile WHENEVER WHEREVER she goes out, for every location change - with all men that she hangs out with, included. If she lies about whos on the picture, easy. If she thinks picture is inappropriate for social then ask why she feels this way and take it from here?
On top of that one could request she put all participants, and event name in description. If she'll ever lie there is a chance someone will comment: ey what about Chad that joined later to afterparty at Kevins. Sounds complicated but as a single big rule, instead of right out forbidding something, sounds better.
Women want to hide stuff, they have no peers control anymore. That method won't work with a ho [she'll become defensive and avoidant] but might help keep tabs on a woman that is not completely gone. I see it only way of bringing limited chaperones and self reflection alive.
w4iks 3y ago
This girl is very inactive on social media, the typical homebody. Has my fingerprint on her phone (out of her own will) and has no problem leaving her phone with me. I’m logged in on her socials (without her knowledge of course) and can see her chats with the friend group and the stories they post. There are no guys on there.
SSeuSS 3y ago
I would prefer to have her privacy 'intact' so she would have space where she could relax. Same idea behind as with 'I don't judge you if you slept with 50 guys', that supposed to build comfort to find out truth when she relaxes and spill the beans.
I right out deny full access to anything for that reason, but if I get it for some minor things, I use it as detractor. But I won't be going into details, why or how. I don't want women getting to smart accidentally.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 3y ago
I agree, there is a mix of long game and informed game. You really have to play to how available each game is to you based on girl's lifestyle.
For example, a girl that just plain leaves her phone with no password there while she's taking her usual 20 minute shower? Easy as fuck informed game if you REALLY needed to know that badly and if she's that stupid.
I prefer to live my life without being controlling and then wait for them to do something that obviously just seems out of place or overt to start playing either of these games.
Just not worth it to me to put a ton of energy into their behaviors beyond initial stated expectations before they fuck up
But also I haven't been in an LTR in 10 years on purpose so hey
SSeuSS 3y ago
My argument here is you still use up your time. There are good reasons to skip informed game: man doesn't bond easily, does not plan for LTR ever, yeah it would be generally waste of time.
Mixing both approaches shows a man, woman's dual mating strategy, lies etc, which is important especially during early dating experiences. It can make brain connections between good girl behaviour and unpleasant facts.
If man bonds easily, getting info asap - might help to avoid investment that will fuck him up later. Hopefully it will also serve as learning curve.
I have added some more stuff to previous reply.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 3y ago
Yeah of course. Clear but not controlling expectations seem to be the most LTR compatible, with a good mix of follow-up game to make sure she's holding her end of the bargain, especially in a world where women just do whatever the fuck they want most of the time.
It's difficult because there is no solid answer to the problem. Every girl is a bit different from each other, different personalities, different capacities and tendencies to lie, different skill at keeping a straight face under pressure, different xyz.
Hard to prescribe a perfect response that will just magically keep all girls in relative check. Most of the time they don't even understand what's problematic with their decisions
"Oh I'm just going out to a girls night"
She's just vibing and chatting with her girls, nothing wrong nothing cheating at all happening
"Oh see this is fine"
And then bam! Three high SMV dudes come by each one picks her tow friends and her and suddenly she's got a dude buying her drinks, maybe getting her number, touching her ass, escalating, and she can't really do anything because the two other single and independent wahmyn sluts she came with want to go home with their two guys
Now she's part of it.
They just don't even seem to understand what our problem with this shit is because in their world nothing is going wrong until it is. They can't see it with any reasonable foresight
Ps. Saw your edit to other comment
SSeuSS 3y ago
Absolutely, it is like constant damage control.
We always say tons of fodder to make sure that guys understand it. There is no sure-fire way.
MentORPHEUS Senior Endorsed 3y ago
Your advice ITT is solid up to this point. A woman who doesn't shut this shit down from the first hint of pickup attempt is fuck buddy only material anyway, no matter WHAT level of iron fistedness you apply to her when she's in your presence.
Plus, heavy control won't and can't hold for an entire lifetime. What worked on a naive and timid girl through her mid-20s isn't going to have the same effect when she's 38 with 3 of your kids in school.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 3y ago
Thanks man, appreciate it
Exactly, it's best to have one that immediately shuts it down. I've met women who throw out the boyfriend line very quickly and that's something I've grown to respect
I used to be annoyed af when I'm just chatting a woman and she drops the boyfriend thing in 20 seconds, but I've since grown to appreciate it after seeing the shenanigans of the ones that don't disclose
I have this married chick friend that's always around me at my places I go to and the only reason I know she's married at all is because my other friend told me.
To this day, she has personally not told me she is married in the 4 months I have known her
Although I think she's actually faithful to her man despite that, so there's that, but still....
Exactly. This is amplified even higher when she's 38, has your kids in school AND she has childless spinster friends that are still clubbing and desperate for sex and male attention
She goes out with them and now she's surrounded by desperate shambles of previously young and attractive sluts whose flirtatious girls nights of freedom and independence act as veneers to their lonely miserable lives
Worsened even more if she thinks she misses those days or is unhappy with you and your marriage for some reason
w4iks 3y ago
Good thing I’m not in a first world country. The moment she gets a child I get all the power. I can leave her at any moment with no real repercussions for me
Vermillion-Rx Admin 3y ago
Dude it's rough here. Western world women are shite for the most part.
They have equal legal powers as men and then some extra -judicial powers society and court biases give them on top of that
w4iks 3y ago
I’ve seen that and I know I would never survive there. Unfortunately, we’re also catching up to the western ways but it will take time before we’re as fucked as you guys
Vermillion-Rx Admin 3y ago
Dude, it's ass cancer. You have to be 2.5 SMV points higher than a woman in the USA most of the time just to have a fighting chance of her staying loyal and attracted.
Feminism has decimated sex dynamics in the west man
whytehorse2021 3y ago
She's for the streets. You set your boundaries, she chose to cross them, and now it's over and done with. Let me tell you something about LTRs... you can't protect a woman who goes out at night on her own. That's why we men set boundaries. She could easily be slipped a drugged drink and raped. OOOPSIE!!!
w4iks 3y ago
My thought exactly, but I was hoping there’s another solution before I go nuclear. I’ve been trying to get a replacement/backup gf without any success (I still meet and fuck other women). I know this is scarcity mentality but I’m yet to find anyone close in terms of personality and behavior.
whytehorse2021 3y ago
Well you could be a little more direct in the future. Tell her she can do whatever she wants but you don't want a relationship with a woman that goes off and puts herself in compromising positions. It's just extra BS added to your life that you don't need.
[deleted] 3y ago
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w4iks 3y ago
Still trying to get this into my head. Also trying to find more quality women who will replace her or give me a backup
Durek_The_Bald 3y ago
Your boundaries are your boundaries, and should be enforced. However, be conscious of whether they're actually your boundaries, and not someone else's you've picked up somewhere because "alpha, bruh". For the record, I think this particular boundary, and in that context, was stupid.
w4iks 3y ago
Lol I kinda agree with you here. I think the issue is less of she’s going to this event and more of “I don’t want to be one of those guys who has a gf who does these things.”
Durek_The_Bald 3y ago
Situations are going to arise, where you're bugged by something, and need to ask yourself why exactly you're bugged, and if it's reasonable. I'm 41, married, and it still happens that I consciously need to tell myself to let something go.
It can be because you have a meme in your head about "girls who do X are like that, and their boyfriends are like this". Such memes can be accurate, but they can also be inaccurate. It can be because of (unfounded) insecurities, (unfounded) paranoia, an overly fragile ego because you've had a bad day or whatever.
My starting position is, I shouldn't let people in my life do stuff that annoys me. And I don't need a better reason than it annoying me. But also, you don't want to end up with an arsenal of boundaries, where you're married to the idea of enforcing them all.
Context matters, the general dynamics of the relationship. Is she enthusiastically getting fucked by you? Is she treating you well, making an effort to keep you? If that's the case, you can probably let loose a bit. And if it isn't the case, there are more serious problems at the root than her going to a concert anyways.
More bigger picture stuff, less details.