Over on another sub, I actually had to go to pain-staking detail what is wrong with the nice guy stereotype so people will maybe listen for once:
So I clarified my opposition to the idea of a Nice GuyTM
In my last post here, Because of Nice GuysTM We Can't Discuss Our Problems in Dating I got a lot of backlash and to be honest I felt like people didn't really understand where I was coming from. The problem is not that no-one realises there is a difference between Nice GuyTM and genuine nice guys, while acknowledging the latter can have positive, attractive traits too and still fall short in dating. The problem was about how the dialogue became restricted for guys who want to talk about their dating issues specifically. I didn't elaborate on this before so I made a post over on my new sub, r/GoodMenGoodValues which should shed some light:
Clarification About Nice GuyTM Stereotype
This is the commonly accepted definition of Nice GuyTM which is on Urban Dictionary:
Not to be confused with a nice guy (that is, a male that is nice)- When used as a noun instead of an adjective, Nice Guy refers to people (men or women) who believe basic social expectations are currency for sex.Nice Guy***[TM}*: I don't understand, I'm a good listener, I help carry his/her groceries, and feed the cat while he/she is away, and he/she won't even let me touch him/her!Sympathetic ear: Uh, because as a human being you should be doing those things in the first place, and OH YEAH: nobody has to have sex with you, and probably won't want to because it's obvious you think basic decency is sex money! To be clear: you are trying to trick people into thinking your Niceness is generosity, when they can clearly see your transactional intent. It's gross. Stop acting like a Nice Guy.
When I bring up the sentiment that you could have a guy that:
- is genuinely kind, empathetic, compassionate, etc. and therefore does not use acts of kindness to get into a woman's pants
- has genuinely attractive qualities and therefore only seeks to date women of the same league
- still struggles with dating
People often say that's not who the Nice GuyTM stereotype is directed at, blah, blah. I already know this. My position/critique is that talking about NiceGuyTM stereotypes puts guys in a position where it is hard to talk about dating issues if they have attractive, virtuous desirable traits because people will say:
- "Well if you had those traits you'd find dating success" Therefore,
- "Must be a Nice GuyTM"
The impact of the NiceGuyTM narrative on this kind of restrictive dialogue is undeniable. That's why I am trying to promote the idea that there are guys who struggle in dating that aren't like this. Why would I start making platitude-y type posts stating the obvious? I'm trying to promote the opposite idea about genuinely good men, hence starting the foundation for real constructive advice.
Now look, if you think the dialogue doesn't get restricted I'm sorry but it simply does. I had to cherry pick a little (and some posts were deleted by a certain user) but here's some examples just from this sub - which is more dedicated to reasonable meta, e.g. than over on r/niceguys :
"If you aren't a Nice Guy then you shouldn't worry about talking about problems in dating. But if every time you complain about them, someone calls you a Nice Guy, maybe you are one. The way you wrote this post leads me to believe you might be."
"He's wrong to blame other people for his struggles"
(This was a comment I responded to:
I never exclusively blamed other people for my struggles.Realistically there will be some problems outside of my control - the way things are, genetics, other people's attitudes, certain ideological dogma/negative beliefs (like the ones mentioned in this section) ...
and there will be problems within my control as well - my attitude efforts I've made to self-improve, look after my body, health, mind, etc.
I just believe I have already done a lot of the latter. That doesn't mean there isn't anything more that I can do, just that my problems in dating can never be 100% my own fault. That's just me being a realist.)
Again, these are just examples from this sub a lot. It's far from being the most vitriolic nice guy bashing I've come across (I have received much worse, and no I was not being provocative). I'm just saying there definitely are nice guys with a lot of things going for them - positive, attractive and desirable features - that still get left behind by dating. We have to analyse what's gone wrong here.
I'm just saying because of this kind of sentiment, it's what makes it hard to discuss these things (socially) and individually seek support, companionship, advice, etc. So that's why it helps to understand the problems going on.