Over on another sub, I actually had to go to pain-staking detail what is wrong with the nice guy stereotype so people will maybe listen for once:
So I clarified my opposition to the idea of a Nice GuyTM
In my last post here, Because of Nice GuysTM We Can't Discuss Our Problems in Dating I got a lot of backlash and to be honest I felt like people didn't really understand where I was coming from. The problem is not that no-one realises there is a difference between Nice GuyTM and genuine nice guys, while acknowledging the latter can have positive, attractive traits too and still fall short in dating. The problem was about how the dialogue became restricted for guys who want to talk about their dating issues specifically. I didn't elaborate on this before so I made a post over on my new sub, r/GoodMenGoodValues which should shed some light:
Clarification About Nice GuyTM Stereotype
This is the commonly accepted definition of Nice GuyTM which is on Urban Dictionary:
Not to be confused with a nice guy (that is, a male that is nice)- When used as a noun instead of an adjective, Nice Guy refers to people (men or women) who believe basic social expectations are currency for sex.Nice Guy***[TM}*: I don't understand, I'm a good listener, I help carry his/her groceries, and feed the cat while he/she is away, and he/she won't even let me touch him/her!Sympathetic ear: Uh, because as a human being you should be doing those things in the first place, and OH YEAH: nobody has to have sex with you, and probably won't want to because it's obvious you think basic decency is sex money! To be clear: you are trying to trick people into thinking your Niceness is generosity, when they can clearly see your transactional intent. It's gross. Stop acting like a Nice Guy.
When I bring up the sentiment that you could have a guy that:
- is genuinely kind, empathetic, compassionate, etc. and therefore does not use acts of kindness to get into a woman's pants
- has genuinely attractive qualities and therefore only seeks to date women of the same league
- still struggles with dating
People often say that's not who the Nice GuyTM stereotype is directed at, blah, blah. I already know this. My position/critique is that talking about NiceGuyTM stereotypes puts guys in a position where it is hard to talk about dating issues if they have attractive, virtuous desirable traits because people will say:
- "Well if you had those traits you'd find dating success" Therefore,
- "Must be a Nice GuyTM"
The impact of the NiceGuyTM narrative on this kind of restrictive dialogue is undeniable. That's why I am trying to promote the idea that there are guys who struggle in dating that aren't like this. Why would I start making platitude-y type posts stating the obvious? I'm trying to promote the opposite idea about genuinely good men, hence starting the foundation for real constructive advice.
==========================================
Now look, if you think the dialogue doesn't get restricted I'm sorry but it simply does. I had to cherry pick a little (and some posts were deleted by a certain user) but here's some examples just from this sub - which is more dedicated to reasonable meta, e.g. than over on r/niceguys :
"If you aren't a Nice Guy then you shouldn't worry about talking about problems in dating. But if every time you complain about them, someone calls you a Nice Guy, maybe you are one. The way you wrote this post leads me to believe you might be."
"He's wrong to blame other people for his struggles"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(This was a comment I responded to:
I never exclusively blamed other people for my struggles.Realistically there will be some problems outside of my control - the way things are, genetics, other people's attitudes, certain ideological dogma/negative beliefs (like the ones mentioned in this section) ...
and there will be problems within my control as well - my attitude efforts I've made to self-improve, look after my body, health, mind, etc.
I just believe I have already done a lot of the latter. That doesn't mean there isn't anything more that I can do, just that my problems in dating can never be 100% my own fault. That's just me being a realist.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, these are just examples from this sub a lot. It's far from being the most vitriolic nice guy bashing I've come across (I have received much worse, and no I was not being provocative). I'm just saying there definitely are nice guys with a lot of things going for them - positive, attractive and desirable features - that still get left behind by dating. We have to analyse what's gone wrong here.
I'm just saying because of this kind of sentiment, it's what makes it hard to discuss these things (socially) and individually seek support, companionship, advice, etc. So that's why it helps to understand the problems going on.
Rick_OShay1 5y ago
Don't you just hate circular-reasoning? I know I do.
It's like someone walking into your company and saying, "I have an important message for the boss. You aren't him; you know how I know? Because if you were him, I would have given you the message.
Circular-reasoning is so nonsensical.
[deleted] 5y ago
This made me laugh.
I've been debating the same topics on OneY, AskMen and AskWomenOver30 and keep receiving a lot of the same generalisations. You should come over to r/GoodMenGoodValues and say what you think as I am interested in keeping an open dialogue and we need more guys who identify as Good Men to state their stance for people to understand where we are coming from.
[deleted] 5y ago
This issue with this is it reduces the intent of the guy as just trying to get laid and misses the bigger point or goal of what most of us actually were interested in. We were looking for a long-term relationship that connects deeply on the emotional level, someone whom we can grow old with and share our life with, not "pump and dump" or something like that.
When I was first dating, I had difficulty with women, not because of a character defect per say (I'm not perfect here), but because my age group of women didn't want the same things. Whereas I was looking for a intimate deep connection, they wanted short term flings and to party it up. I was vetting for wife material, they were vetting for a fuck buddy. Essentially, the very opposite was true - they wanted sex and I wanted something deeper.
Which the misunderstanding is all very surprising. How many of us were actually looking for something like a "soulmate" before we got redpilled? Is it that hard to believe, in an age of tender, promiscuity, and the breakdown of the nuclear family, that a guy wanting something more would have a hard time? How many 20 somethings actually want to settle down? Is it really that hard to understand how, what we may call character virtues, actually turn women off? How often do we, like a mantra, emphasize how good and noble qualities in a man will be interpreted as "beta", whereas the "alpha" bad qualities will actually attract women?
I expected this level of gaslighting from the feminists - were every man is a rapist sex fiend hiding urges that's just barely held in check. Only, to my surprise, to see the same ideological foundations having percolated here through the manosphere.
End rant :/
[deleted] 5y ago
Dude that was the urban dictionary definition which I went on to criticise.
[deleted] 5y ago
I know. I'm just trying to help add to your criticism. Sorry if it seemed off, it wasn't directed at you.
[deleted] 5y ago
Sorry, I'm a little tired. I didn't get a proper chance to read/understand your comment. I will get back to you later.
[deleted] 5y ago
[deleted]
[deleted] 5y ago
In my opinion, they can "get" ready. If they're going to ram their Nice Guy trope down all of our necks, they can damn well listen to some of my ideology too.
a-little-sleepy 5y ago
I felt you left that sub before discussing with a lot of people (as is what the sub is for) about issues with your post. This was my response and I am interested in your thoughts. I also posted a list of relationship discussion subs as an example of the many spaces available to discuss relationships. Seems you claimed there was none.
I also wrote a nice analogy in that sub about how niceness is like the base of a pizza. You don't look at the base of a pizza and think "oh it has a base!" No the base is a given in order for it to be on the menu. You look at the toppings (interests etc.) But if the only description of a pizza being advertised is "has a base" (is nice) you won't go for it because it doesn't actually tell you anything you can connect with about that pizza.
Anyways here was my entire you never replied to:
If it isn't about their "niceness" why are you claiming "niceness" is the issue.
There seems to be many places and people one can talk to about relationship woes. You have been on those subreddit already it seems.
But when a person talks about their relationship woes and starts going down the mental toxic trail I feel good friends would point it out and keep them processing it in a healthy way. "Hey you can be angry she said no but it is out of line to say she should have said yes because you offered to take her to a movie. calling her a bitch won't help you get through it."
[deleted] 5y ago
Hi, as I have to sleep and do other things too, I did not have a chance to get back to you!
I read flicked through some of your replies and thought you had some interesting points so I made this post which should clarify some of the ambiguities in my sub:
https://www.reddit.com/r/GoodMenGoodValues/comments/93n910/why\_dont\_i\_just\_keep\_the\_conversation\_about\_good/
But, since there are a lot of valid points I don't want you to respond there if you have anything to add. Rather, could I ask that you make a separate post because I would like to see some more activity on the main page and you can refer to the some of the points in posts I've made thus far and within the comments you responded with for context. That would be greatly appreciated.