In the title.
We looked at Hera McLeod in this post. There was some controversy, even among the men. The complaint was "well, of course she hates men! The father of her first child murdered that child!"
Ok, yes. He did. He is responsible for the child's murder.
But SHE is responsible for (1) selecting him to date despite her initial misgivings; (2) dating him; (3) having sex with him; (4) getting pregnant by him; (5) supporting him; (6) living with him; (7) staying with him; (8) not distancing herself from him until it was too late; and most important,
(9) ignoring or glossing over all the numerous red flags that were so apparent even Blue Pilled me could have seen them; and
(10) failing to limit the relationship, end it, or leave when each red flag popped up.
The reasons for this are varied and beyond the scope of this post. But one way or another, our entire society has gotten to the point where women are not held responsible for anything they do or say; and women are not held to any standards of any kind. And no one is permitted to hold women responsible or to make them adhere to standards.
This is absolutely toxic, and it needs to stop. It is unacceptable, period, full stop. And you men need to start shifting the tides on this.
Any time a man points out a woman's errors in judgment or conduct, men are lambasted for it. Men are not permitted to say "she's responsible for X". Men are not permitted to say "she should have done this" or "she should NOT have done that".
Men aren't permitted to have any standards for any woman in their lives. They are shamed for rejecting unattractive women, for not dating at all, for going their own way. They aren't permitted to insist that any woman in their lives act in certain ways or not act in other ways. Men are told and instructed that women can do and say anything they want, anytime they want, anywhere they want, to anyone they want, and no one can say fuckall about it. Men are trained that if a man gets drunk with a woman who also gets drunk, and they have sex, he's responsible for his sexual decisions AND FOR HER sexual decisions. He's responsible even if he's drunk off his ass. But she's not responsible for anything.
(She's legally responsible for driving drunk, but NOT legally, morally, or any other kind of responsible for fucking drunk. We men see the abject unfairness and injustice of that.)
You people want to know why men are going their own way? This is why. Because men are being told, taught, trained, and severely instructed on pain of penalty and imprisonment, that they are not to expect anything of any woman they interact with. They can't expect her even to show them common courtesy.
If he's dating her, he's 100% responsible for him AND for her. If he's married to her, he can't expect her to have sex with him, to not fuck other men, to avoid bankrupting them, to make even rudimentary contributions to running the house, or even to fucking be nice to him.
If she works for him, he can't expect her to do her job competently or not create workplace drama.
All of this is because we have spent the last 50 or so years not holding women to any standards, allowing them to escape responsibility for their fucked up decisions, and allowing them to shift their responsibilities to men. To add insult to injury, we've looked the other way while women pointed the finger at men and called them "abusive" for doing nothing other than insisting that women meet standards and be accountable for their conduct. We as a society have blamed men for women's decisions and for their unhappiness. We've made men foot the bill for it.
And then when men have the gall to point out the unfairness, and that they want and expect things from their interactions and relationships with women, as a final slap in the face, they call us names. Incel. Sexist. Misogynist. Bitter small dicked loser who can't get laid. They accuse us of hyperemotionality ("who hurt you?" "So dramatic." "Jeez, calm down, so ANGRY.") They imply that men are in the wrong for doing nothing other than saying "um, that's not our fault."
No more.
Posts like the one linked up there point up WAATGM's and WATGMA's mission: to point out women's responsibility. That men are NOT responsible for women choosing to fuck shitbags. Women are responsible for their decision to fuck shitbags. That women are fully personally responsible for every decision they make, and they should be required to bear every consequence of those decisions. That women need to be held to minimum standards of conduct. That men are not responsible for cleaning up women's messes, not responsible for paying for it, and are not responsible to sort through the baggage they accumulated.
If women want to work, they should be held to the same workplace standards as men are. No more "getting a man to do it for you". No more "getting a man to fix your work fuckups". No more preferences in hiring, salary, or advancement. Women need to be called out and told to stop fomenting and creating workplace drama, stop gossiping with coworkers, and get their asses back to work and actually contribute to the bottom line.
If a woman wants to date men, she needs to meet their standards for attractiveness and conduct. Men are within their rights to not date them or stop dating them if they fail to meet those standards. Men need to ignore the shaming and walk away from shitty women.
if a woman wants to be married, she needs to understand that 50% of that marriage is the man she chooses to marry. She needs to meet his standards and contribute to the marriage bottom line however he decides she needs to. If he wants and needs things from the marriage, it is HER responsibility and obligation to provide them. She needs to find a way to meet those standards and do what he expects, or she can choose to not be a wife anymore - ON HER DIME. She needs to be held 100% responsible for her decisions- including her decision to marry, to marry this particular man, and to remain with him. And she needs to be held to her end of the bargain, which includes feed him, fuck him and ONLY him, and be nice to him. Men need to hold their wives fully personally responsible and hold them to standards they set.
And fuck, people, we need to ratchet down the definition of "abuse" to pre-1970 levels. It is NOT abuse for a man to expect to have sex with his wife. It is NOT abuse for a man to say "stay on budget". It is NOT abuse for a man to lie to a woman to fuck her (men have been doing that for millennia and women know it). It is NOT abuse for a man to say "I don't want to do that and I am not going to do that". It is NOT abuse for a man to manipulate a woman (women manipulate men ALL THE TIME). It is NOT abuse for a man to say to a woman "I don't want to date fat chicks, ugly chicks, weird chicks, or any other kind of chicks I don't like". It is NOT abuse for a man to reject a woman.
It is NOT abuse for a man to say "woman, here is where you fucked up and here is where you are responsible".
It is NOT abuse for a man to hold a woman he's dating or married to, to standards he sets.
It is NOT abuse for a man to hold a woman responsible and accountable for meeting the standards he sets, and for kicking her to the curb when she cannot or will not meet those standards.
There is no such thing as "financial abuse". It is NOT abuse for a man to say "I won't support you or stay married to you if you will not meet my standards."
Women: you need to start meeting standards and you need to start taking responsibility for your lives. It is NOT men's fault that you're unhappy. It is NOT men's fault that you're out of shape, overweight, or working a job you hate. It is NOT men's fault that you can't find a man. It is NOT men's fault that you can't have a family. It is NOT men's fault that you fucked 20 shitbags and one of them knocked you up. It is NOT men's fault that you can't or won't do your job.
And it is not anyone's fault but YOURS if you chose a shitbag to father your child.
It's YOUR fault. It's YOUR responsibility. And we will point that out to men who read here, and they can take it for what it's worth.
Have the courage to face the truth.
EDIT:
In cases like Hera McLeod and her son's death at the hands of the man she chose to sire him, I don't care about the man's responsibility. The entire world writes quadrillions of pixels about men's responsibility. The entire world holds men accountable for absolutely EVERYTHING they do (and things they don't do, and things they didn't do, and most things women do, and for the state of women). The entire world pounds the ever loving shit out of men, all the time, every minute of every hour of every day, about how they need to be responsible/man up/step up/be men.
You need to train your goddamn grey matter to hold women accountable. You need to train yourself to look past the bullshit and get all the way down to the truth of it, the truth that women and their willing sycophants are trying to conceal from you. You need to see that women are FULLY PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for every decision they make, including fucking bad men and choosing bad men to sire their children. Joaquin Rams is responsible for the end result. But Hera McLeod is responsible for pretty much the ENTIRE chain of events that led up to that end result. She had no less than four separate and distinct opportunities to never let things start with Rams, or to end things with him, and she DID NOT DO IT.
And SHE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT.
[deleted] 3y ago
Only the law dictates what you can do, not women.
Just laugh at em while they struggle.
Umin_The_Wolf 3y ago
I'm not sure where your living, but I don't know anyone (I'm American) who feels afraid to say any of these things to a person (man or woman)
Just take the lambasting
HatezWomenzCuzIncelz 3y ago
Because it's all emotional manipulation. It's all a guilt trip.
moorekom Mod 3y ago
What has become clear to me is that not many people have read [Rule 1]( https://www.reddit.com/r/WhereAreAllTheGoodMen/comments/chey8b/psa_we_are_not_here_to_shame_beta_men/) and even less put it into practice in real life or online.
Are we saying that the man she dated is not responsible for the murder of their kid? No. Are we saying that she was not abused? No. We do not know enough information to say anything on that matter. What we are saying is that she chose this guy despite all the glaring red flags. Red flags that are very apparent to a third party who is getting to know her story via a news source. At the very least, she is shit at character judgement and her judgement cannot be trusted. And she is advocating that people should prioritize civil rights for kids instead of the rights of fathers & mothers. That instead of the age old and sensible practice of trusting husbands and wives to take care of their children everyone should start a new conversation on whether to provide legal rights to kids at a young age when their brain has not yet fully developed? Why? Because she was a shit mother and her judgement was shit when it comes to choosing a man?
Gentlemen, do not forget that this woman is an adult. She made her choices. Remember that she is an adult. It does not matter what she wants. It does not matter that you want to white knight and treat her like a kid and absolve her of her responsibilities. While it might not be politically correct, you are not an asshole to point out that she fucked up royally and that you would not take anything this woman has to say seriously. If you find yourself compelled to white knight for her and absolve her for her mistakes, do us a favor and read through the entire sidebar first. If you don’t want to, unsubscribe and go elsewhere.
PS: u/Aldabruzzo, please cross post this link to the main sub, sticky it and lock it.
[deleted] 3y ago
Just as women cannot have the protection of children when it suits them and have adult benefits when it suits them,
We cannot have a society in which men have all the responsibility but none of the authority.
We cannot have a society in which men bear all the burdens and receive no benefits.
We cannot have a society in which men bear all the risks and costs of failure in return for no benefits whatsoever.
If I have no authority in my own home in which a woman lives, i'm within my rights to leave that home or remove her from my home.
If I have no authority in my own life when women are present, I'm within my rights to avoid women and require them to keep their distance from me.
If I cannot have any benefits from association with a woman, I will not carry any of the burdens from that association nor will I assume any obligations because of that association.
Overkillengine 3y ago
Any society that tries that paradigm long enough, dies. Be it slow collapse into ruin, or death by conquest.
[deleted] 3y ago
Authority without responsibility is tyranny, and responsibility without authority is impotence. Tyrant women and impotent men dont sound anything like our current society. /s
disayle32 3y ago
How many good men did Hera McLeod reject in favor of this piece of shit? The likely answer is "too many".
jihocech 3y ago
SHe was 30 when she met that man, not some naive teenager.
[deleted] 3y ago
And literally for good dick lmao imagine prioritizing a good fuck over your childs life
disayle32 3y ago
Yet more evidence that the tingles have become a maladaptive trait. Can't pass on your genes if Bad Boy kills the offspring.
DangZagnut 3y ago
Women have never been held accountable, or responsible for anything ever.
[deleted] 3y ago
pointing that out, DZ, is HATEFACT!! and THOUGHTCRIME!!
You're not allowed to say that! You're not allowed to think that!
"You MGTOWs, just fuckin... Go Your Own Way, then, and stop sitting around on the internet all day talking about women." (One wonders why women who don't care about these men or what they're doing care so much about what these men they don't care about are saying and doing. These women care so little they talk all day along about how they really do not care about these men going their own way (who they don't care about, mind you) and talking about them. Everyone just, not caring. All day long....)
rreot 3y ago
Women when seeking hot passionate alpha sex : Betas? I don't even notice them existing
Women when hearing about Betas checking out of society : reee misogynist racist ageist hypocrite
[deleted] 3y ago
True
houseoftolstoy Mod 3y ago
Very nicely written.
One thing that applies to everyone, no matter who you are: you need to act in your best self-interest. For women this means just as you stated, not associating, sleeping with, or marrying the wrong kind of guy. If a woman does any of those things with that kind of man, does that morally excuse him of wrongdoing? No. But that does not mean there is nothing a woman can do when she encounters that kind of man. She should still act in her own best interest, which means that she should be watching for herself.
For comparison, consider a busy intersection with a crosswalk. When the walk signal shows that pedestrians have the right of way, that does not mean that some reckless driver will not hit you even while the driver should have been looking for pedestrians and paid attention to traffic signals. Better to still be cautious about your surroundings to do your best not to be the victim of a car hitting you than it is to get hit. You can argue all you want about how you had the right of way, but I would rather you do that after taking preventive action to not get hit than to di that from a hospital bed. Yes, you should not be the victim of the driver's bad actions, but that is no reason not to take precautions.
Of course feminists and their enablers will argue that nothing bad should happen to women as a result of their actions. They should just have the freedom to make whatever choices thry want without any risk of bad consequences. Guess what, we do not live in such a world. Everyone needs to be prepared for bad outcomes, even if you are not the one instigating the bad outcome. We tell men to be on guard for bad women and not to associate with them. But tell women the same? Gasp! Misogyny! Women should not have to worry about bad men who would do them any harm! We just need to demand a perfect world where no one ever does anything bad to women and shame men for not obtaining perfection.
Teach men not to rape? We already do that! But yet there are still rapists. We teach that murder and theft are wrong, but still we have murder and theft. We do not live in a world without suffering or wrongdoing. We live in a world that has problems, but instead of just demanding they do not exist, we must learn to deal with those problems. That certainly must include telling women that they xannot expect the universe to cater to their desires for a perfect and struggle-free life, but to be on the look out for any potential problems.
jihocech 3y ago
The word "rape" has lost its meaning. Everything sexual the woman does not like is rape. Look at Harvey Weinstein. He invited an adult women to his hotel room, she willingly comes and he raped her? And after a week he invites her again, she arrives and is raped again? Common sense is lost.
[deleted] 3y ago
We need to stop blaming dad's for bad choices women make. It's not always dad's fault, it is also mom's. Moms do a lot of damage too. Let's be real about that as well.
sleepyweaselisawake Mod 3y ago
This makes for an interesting discussion and a timely one. I was scrolling through my SM feed this morning and saw a post from a single mom who's oldest child (1 of 3 with three different fathers) is asking where his dad is.
Based on her posts, he's a POS with a warrant and is on the run. The women who chimed in with advice (all single moms, whose baby daddies disappeared before the urine on the pregnancy test dried).
The pity party and woe is me commenced as you would expect with various advice that amounted to: tell the kid his dad went away and leave it at that.
Unfortunately, for that kid and millions like him he'll never know the truth unless he stumbles on the Manosphere. The story he'll never hear from his mother is how she met the neighborhood bad boy and fell in love with partying, drinking, doing drugs, and ignoring the massive red flags he had on display until of course she got pregnant.
She expected him to sober up and be a father, but surprise to no one, he ditched and disappeared. She'll never admit to her son that her choices to date and fuck a guy who was useless from day 1 is why he has no father. She's was/is and always will be the victim of the choices she made, but is not responsible for making.
[deleted] 3y ago
I remember growing up in the 1970s and 80s. There weren't a lot of divorced people in my little town. Divorce was still a little bit scandalous back then, and at that particular place.
There were a few though. The stories and explanations were all the same:
Here's where the stories would diverge, though. First, the Shiftless LazyAss/Ghost:
Or, the Abusive Wife-Beater:
Or, if you don't like those, maybe you'll like the Drunk/Drug Addict:
There's always the Cheater:
Then the stories return to the standard narrative:
The message is unmistakably clear:
No statements about how or when they married. No statements about the truth of their marriages. No statements about their kids.
Until you started asking some questions and doing some math.
Almost all the time, know what I found out?
--they married when she was 18 because he knocked her up.
--they married after they had the first kid.
--they never got married, they were just shacking up/common law married.
--she's got scars on her wrists from compulsive cutting
--she's a diagnosed bipolar disorder/Cluster B personality disorder
--she's a raging bitch
--she cheated on him
--she's an active substance abuser or is in recovery from substance abuse
--she threw things at him, she hit him with frying pans or iron skillets, she punched him, she pulled a knife or a gun on him
--she left him
But there was always a ready explanation:
--Well, if they had sex before they got married, it was because he was a Bad Man who tricked and duped her into it! Because everyone knows that women don't really want sex! Women want love! Women want marriage! The only reason they have sex is so they can have babies!
--Well, even if she was crazy or mean, he still was required to stay with her. Because this is just how women are, and men have to just put up with it. Part of being married. It's men's duty.
--It doesn't matter what she did. He still should not have changed/left/abused her/become an addict/cheated. She was wrong, but he was MORE wrong. She was bad but he was WORSE.
--Says in the Bible: Man is head of wife, and God is head of the man. So if the wife messes up, it's the man's responsibility. If the wife is bad in the marriage, it's the man's responsibility. He's responsible for everything that happens in his house, including his wife's bad acts. If she is crazy or mean or cheats on him, it must be because of something her husband did or didn't do.
Um... but why did she pick the guy in the first place?
--Well, he CHANGED! She didn't know he was like that before they got married! They married, and all of a sudden, it was like Jekyll and Hyde! He lied to her! He defrauded her!
um... but why couldn't she recognize that before? Wasn't she watching? Wasn't she paying attention?
--Well, he's just a Bad Man! He lied to her! He tricked her into having sex with him! He said all kinds of Nice Things to get her to have sex with him! Now stop asking me all these questions because don't you know it's always men's fault? Just.... DO NOT BE A BAD MAN LIKE THESE MEN, ok? Cuz no one likes a Bad Man!
um.... but, these divorced moms at church liked them...
--NO THEY DID NOT!! Those Bad Men LIED to these sweet churchgoing women! If these sweet paragons of virtue had known the truth, and if those Bad Men had not been Bad, why, they would NEVER EVER have liked those men! Women don't like Bad Men! Women don't pick Bad Men! Women don't knowingly choose and have sex with Bad Men! Now shoo!
So there you have it. Always the man's fault. Always the man's responsibility. Even if she is bad, it's his fault. If she was bad, he was worse. Yeah, she was wrong, but he was more wrong. Yeah, she did some bad stuff, but he did worse stuff, more often. The man can't win. No matter what he does, or she does, no matter the circumstances or the results, it's ultimately his fault.
It's no wonder men are walking away from marriage in increasing numbers, or waiting longer to marry.
sleepyweaselisawake Mod 3y ago
That's precisely the reason I won't marry and treat women like pump and dumps. If they refuse to take responsibility for themselves and their decisions then there's no way I'm going to trust them to make decisions in regard to my life.
[deleted] 3y ago
And when you dig down deep with these women and ask them about these awful, terrible, no good, horrible, very bad men, you find out that they were ALWAYS awful, terrible, no good, horrible, very bad men, FOR RELATIONSHIPS AND MARRIAGE.
The Shiftless Lazy Ass Ghost? 20 years before, he was Carefree Fun Guy Who Showed Me A Good Time.
The Abusive Wife Beater? 20 years before he was Brooding, Soulful, Moody Garage Band/Motorcycle Guy.
The Drunk/Drug Addict? 20 years before he was Fun Party Guy With All The Good Weed And Drugs.
The Cheater/Fuckboy? 20 years before he was Fun Sexy Hawt Guy Who Fucked All My Friends and my Friends' Friends.
What you find out is that these guys were ALWAYS that way. It's just that she got knocked up or she tried to convert a fuckboy into a boyfriend, or a boyfriend into a husband.
Hera McLeod tried to convert Joaquin Rams, Scumbag POS Fuckboy, into a boyfriend and Family Man. Prince McLeod Rams paid the price for it. Joaquin Rams was ALWAYS a piece of shit scumbag fuckboy. And Hera McLeod knew that (her "stomach clenched" when she first met him) but deliberately chose to ignore that.
Know what else is funny? These are the same women who tell me bullshit like "I knew what 'bad sex' was before I ever had it". These are the same women who wheedle and whine "what, you expect women to come out of the womb jaded and cynical? You expect them to "just know this stuff"?"
WELL YES GODDAMNIT. I expect women to "just get it" the same way women expect men to "just get it". I expect women to know that how a guy is now is fucking how he's always gonna be. What the fuck? You know what bad sex is without ever having had it, but you DON'T know what a bad man is when you see him? What the fuck is your problem?
But oh no, she's not responsible or accountable for any of it. It's all his fault. It's all the guy's fault, for him just being who he is. She picked him. She chose him. She decided on him. Women are the sexual selectors, and she selected him. In fact, women decide who they'll marry. She could have said no. she could have gotten an abortion. She could have given the kid up for adoption.
And I'm supposed to feel sorry for them? No fucking way. And I'm supposed to absolve them of accountability? No. And I'm supposed to clean up their messes and sort through the flotsam and jetsam of their fucked up lives?
NO.
Captainbuttman 3y ago
I think it’s important to remember that statistically women choose to get divorced and be single mothers. 75% of divorces are initiated by women, and women have greater access to birth control and abortion than ever before in history (at least in the US). While men’s access to birth control is severely lacking: condoms which ruin sensation, the pull out method which is foolish, and sterilization.
We are living in the future that women have chosen.
Overkillengine 3y ago
And they are unhappier than ever. Look at how many of them are antidepressants and other big pharma chemical cocktails.
BluepillProfessor 3y ago
1/3 are on happy pills.
1/3 are on antipsychotics.
The remaining 1/3 are the most dangerous- the unmedicated womyn.
[deleted] 3y ago
I have no problem with women wanting to date and fuck fuckboys.
I just want them to take responsibility for it, pay for it themselves, not blame me for it, and not expect me to clean up the mess they made.
Overkillengine 3y ago
Agency is a tool of the Patriarchy!
Dumloko 3y ago
This post should be added to both subs' sidebars.
[deleted] 3y ago
My best and only answer is to teach my nieces and nephews kindness and morality.
(I won't have kids until I can afford them and I find a woman I can trust.
Guess where the holdup is.)
BluepillProfessor 3y ago
Doveryay, no proveryay.
loneliness-inc Mod 3y ago
This is the crux of the issue at hand.
Gentlemen, women either have agency or they don't.
If they have agency - they ought to be fully responsible for their choices in life.
If they don't have agency - they should have no right to vote or make any decisions about anything.
You can't have it both ways. You can't hold the opinion that women should have rights (read: authority) to make decisions that affect themselves and others while also holding any and every man responsible for the choices she makes. These two things are mutually exclusive to one another.
There's an attitude out there that's essentially this: a man is always responsible. Always. You have to prove with 100% certainty that the man is not responsible for us to even consider whether the woman is responsible or not. But as long as there's a man to hang responsibility on his shoulders, she gets a pass.
As explained in the post, this mindset is toxic, harmful and morally wrong. I ask you once more:
Do women have agency or not?
Consistency fellas.
doron12349 3y ago
Either they are wish to be treated lile an adult,with of of the responsibilities and expectations from adults,or they are wish to be treated like a child with none of the perks being an adult has.
Freedom cannot exist without responsibility
[deleted] 3y ago
I don't even care about "morally wrong".
This right here is why men go their own way. Because they have been taught, trained, and shown, painfully, that they can't expect anything of the women they interact with. They can't expect her to do her job. They can't expect a girlfriend to do things for them. They can't expect wives to do or be anything.
They can't even so much as expect women they see just going through life to not be bitches and to conform their conduct to generally accepted every day human standards of politeness and courtesy.
They have to take care of themselves AND women. They see women being allowed to do and be and say anything they want, anytime they want, anywhere they want, with or to anyone they want, with no negative consequences whatsoever. Everyone looks the other way, excuses it, defends it, and blames men for it. It's not fair, and men point it out, and everyone shames them for it.
When men say "um, that's kinda unfair", they are bashed over the head, called names, and then presented with the bill for it.
So, men do what they do when presented with impossible situations. They walk away from them. They stop engaging. They shut down. They avoid. They withdraw. They focus on themselves, on their own places, on what they can control.
loneliness-inc Mod 3y ago
Any question of right and wrong is either a moral question or an ethical one.
Yes. Because they're expected to bear all the traditional responsibility without any authority whatsoever. (As you point out here). Women OTOH, can expect to have all the authority without any responsibility. This is immoral, but no individual man is able to stand up to the government and that's why walking away is the only viable option that remains.
Authority without responsibility is tyranny, responsibility without authority is slavery! Today we have government backed female tyranny and male slavery...
[deleted] 3y ago
We need to have some principals though! I can’t tell you how many dudes I’ve seen date thots especially in high school. Luckily I think men are wiseing up, dick discipline hopefully will take over and just pump and dump the thots.
BluepillProfessor 3y ago
Those weren't dates.
[deleted] 3y ago
I meant get into relationships
ReddiReaders 3y ago
This post is so gold.