I generally agree with this with one caveat: how is marriage any different?

• Cohabitating with a woman? Kiss your freedom goodbye. You no longer have the freedom to come home from work and do what the fuck you want. You no longer have the freedom to be by yourself at home and unwind. You no longer have the freedom to go out when you want and do what you want. Each time you leave the house you have to check in with your woman and say where you are going and why and for how long and when you will be back. You no longer have the freedom to cook/eat what you want, when you want to.

Not in my experience ... which is pretty extensive

Having cohabitated with numerous women, never did ONE of these things ever become an issue.

I don't change the way I live just becoz my gf lives with me.

That's what having a strong frame does, it's my 'frame' and she participates, she never 'rules'.

Nor do I make any 'demands' of her, as I don't need to. After all, she wouldn't be living with me If there was the need for me to do so.

It's "her Life and she lives it". If her lifestyle is incompatible with mine, she's gone. I make it crystal clear from the very start of our time together, what my boundaries are.

Every girl I've lived with has been well aware of my 'ability with women' ... I don't need to remind them of what I'm capable of. (going out and easily picking up someone just as cute) They've seen it, having experienced it personally.

I don't do Dread ,, if the relationship has got to that point, it's time to move on.

IMHO Dread Game is a desperation move to "keep the oneitis" (and/or the 'sunk cost' *fallacy associated with 'her') IMO it completely goes against the concept of 'abundance'.

If things got to the point it was my only option, I'd take my other option and leave the relatioinship.

Just becoz you live with someone does not mean you become their servant!

And I don't do marriage.

In fact (correct me if I'm wrong) BUT I didn't think TRP ideology subscribes to the concept of "marriage" ... I certainly don't!

"This is what men strive for. Freedom. Men want freedom, women want access. As a man, there is nothing better than being completely free. Being financially free. Being addiction free. Being free to do whatever the fuck you want, when you want"....my absolute ultimate goal in life, nothing remotely comes close to the euphoric feeling of being able to do whatever you want

It doesnt matter she will do whatever she wants anyway its called female nature no safegaurds or methods are going to help you just have options and be ready to leave her if she crosses the line a man should have a "suitcase mentality"when dealing with women these days.

how about don't be in an LTR for too long either? i don't live with my gf of 7 years but there is no sex 90% of the times we hang out. they just stop putting in sex after a while no matter what, i've seen studies indicating the longer a girl is married, the more her desire to fuck her husband dies. you cant avoid this by avoiding co-habitation. all you will achieve is making the deadbedroom happen at a later date, than if you were living together.

I can see how cohabitating can fuck your shit up. I have been living together for 4 years and we see eachother A LOT. And although I can do whatever the fuck I want and dread is definitely not non-existant. It really is trp on hard mode. But I think it can be done with good results. MRP is the place to be if you still want to live together.

Tl;DR : what OP says is definitely true on some level. If you reaaaally want to cohabitate though it can be done with satisfying results.

I've only lived with a girl once, for 8 months. Safe to say, I'll never do it ever again. When I lived with her, the worst parts were:

• Total loss of freedom/personal space. There's nowhere you can go without being harassed. She will nag you, talk to you when you don't want to engage in conversation, and when you're arguing don't expect to sleep well, or at all. I constantly had to go back to my parents' home (thank god it was near) or simply leave the apartment that I paid for because someone was being bitchy and disrespecting my personal space.

• I saw the worst of her. I saw her without make-up, I saw her in unflattering situations (e.g. binge-eating in front of the TV in home clothes), I smelled it every time she took a shit, I saw her hygiene practices (or the lack thereof), etc. There was a gradual loss of attraction. This goes both ways; she didn't need to see me in a mess.

• The constant shit-testing got really exhausting. Let's face it: most RP men can deflect shit tests now and then, but when they come at you 24/7 maintaining frame is going to be impossible. I lost my temper several times, and boy do girls push your limits the moment they know you can't evict her as easily as you want.

• I had no place to fuck other girls. I had to fuck her even when I didn't want to, just because she needed validation.

• Betaization sets in. I got fatter (no incentive to improve/lift with a constant stream of sex), and it became very inconvenient to do what I wanted anymore (e.g. go out with friends, meet other girls, pursue my hobbies, etc.), as now I had to take into account her interests, likes/dislikes, etc. It often became more convenient to just do what she wanted me to do to avoid drama and loss.

• She took full advantage of her ability to ruin my life. This is one of the biggest drawbacks of cohabitation. She could burn down my apartment if she wanted to. She could shout into my ears all night long to stop me from sleeping. She could wreck my car out of spite. She could slam a sledgehammer through my TV/laptop just to get back at me. She could physically hassle me, and I can't leave, because why should I anyway? I paid for the apartment. It's my fucking place. I locked her out once; she made a huge scene crying and pleading outside the door like I was the bad guy. Remember that, because of this, she now has additional leverage against you.

• All the standard gripes about a roommate situation still apply, because you're sharing your living space -- so communal living rules apply, except that you're not only sharing an apartment but also a bedroom and bed. Jesus Christ. She'll move shit around, interfere with your personal belongings, share the resources, you have to tip-toe around when she's asleep, etc.

Living close-by might be the furthest I'll go in the future... that's if I ever had the misfortune of pursuing another LTR.

If you are not paying 100% of your own rent/house payment. You are at the mercy and whim of others.

I dated this one girl for 3 years. It was easily the best LTR I'd had up to that point by a long shot. Super chill, no drama, basically perfect. We dated for over two years and a half years, then decided to move in to an apartment together.

Big mistake.

Intimacy and connection was gone within 6 months. Sex stopped. Her hamster started. Irrationality, despite my best stoicism, reigned supreme. Moved out and felt like shit for the summer trying to "logic" how "a switch flipped" in her head.

Wait. What? You are saying that we should get married?

[deleted]

I co-habitate with my gf at the moment. We are doing fine. Sex on tap, no issues. I'm still running dread because i work in retail where 90% of the staff is female. Sorry to break the dogma, but it's definitely possible.

Everything maybe fine at the start, but eventually everything said in the post will happen, and is true. It may take up to like 2 years, but eventually she will realize the power she holds over you, and you will not even realize how much you have regressed as a man. You need to be your own man.

I just read this and realize how stupid I am. I moved in with my gf of roughly 6 months. I have lost my confidence with a lot because of her shitty attitude. Reading this makes me feel so damn dumb.

She told me last night. I've lost my edge. Fear of rejection from a beautiful woman I've fucked makes me sick to my stomach. I'm an idiot. Holy shit.

I couldn't imagine marrying someone without living with them first. People can hide the crazy, but when you're spending all day with them, it is alittle harder.

So "don't cohabitate with a woman you aren't married to". Okay. But then another TRP principle I've seen voiced strongly is "don't get married". So basically, never cohabitate with a woman then? Wtf?

Can you talk without cussing every sentence and calling us retards? Do you think you have life all figured out already?

I've got a friend who was unbreakable Dark Triad, tight game with this easy to play girl. Healthy long relationship but eventually they moved in after graduating college. They are hitting the rocks now and we all saw it coming. I tried to warn him but he didn't listen.

I think it all comes back around where no matter how good something is. People get tired of it after a while. I love pizza and I once tried eating it for 1 week straight. I got so sick of it I didn't order pizza for a whole year.

Same with relationships, no matter your tight game you just aren't equipped enough to handle the daily drag. When you lived apart you'd only see eachother at high moments. The rest was left up to the imagination of 'what could be'.

Turns out that what could be is fucking boring.

I was able to save enough money cohabitating to pay off my house.. Just saying

And I was asking myself why people make fun of this sub...

Depends on your objectives.

I used cohabitation as a vetting process. I wanted to see the dynamic we would have living as couple with both working full time.

At the start, she would come home in a bitchy mood from being tired from work. I made it clear that path only lead to separation. I only proposed when I was sure I wasn't going to be surprised by any other random shit.

7 years into my marriage, I still think it was the best thing I could have done, and would do it again.

It all comes down to the leverage.

Also letting one sleep over for 4 days in a row constantly or even just making sleepovers the norm leads to similar problems. I think it ruined my last LTR. She felt it implies to sleep over every time she came over because she lived so far away. I didn't feel like driving her there and back late and she didn't feel safe transiting. I just wanted a gf to occasionallly sleep over if I let her. I suppose the logistics were the real problem.

Never rent off a woman, never live in a group house where a woman holds the lease.

If you are thinking of moving into a group situation, look around. Are the common areas of the home mostly or exclusively full one chick's stuff? Her furniture in the living room, her pots and pans in the kitchen, her dvds next to the player, her personal items scattered around the house and very little of anyone else's stuff?

If so, you are better off sleeping in your car. You are better off in a crappy motel. You are better off ina "swags for the homeless" swag.

Moved in with a chick group house, and the psycho who held the lease told me "Goddamn, it's like there's a revolving door on this place - no-one stays for long". I should never have moved in. Nice as pie when she was getting her own way.

If it's a comfort test, living together would be passing it, not failing it. It might be overkill to pass one comfort test but my point is that I think you're misusing the concept.

This is just another post on how doing X is not red pill or smart and frankly I find it to be a joke.

Just like /u/PanzerBatallion said; if you can't do X in the relationship it's your own damn fault.

You can run dread game and have freedom easily in a relationship. You don't always have to come home straight from work. You don't always have to sleep at home.

100% agree. There are many reasons NOT to cohabitate. There are zero good reasons to cohabitate.

Top of my list is legal reasons. Had a buddy who had to call cops and fight a legal battle to get rid of a girl. Took him like 60 days and she WASN'T EVEN ON THE LEASE.

But I see the hamsters are already spinning in the comments, so...

Translation - you spend so much time trying to learn how to be single that you have no idea how to be in a relationship.

That's fine, but realize it's your own shortcomings that are causing the problems. If you can't leave when you want, that's your fault. If you can't come home and do what you want, that's your fault. If you don't have a basement/garage/workshop that's your area and off limits to everyone else in the house, that's your fault.

Don't blame the relationship turning shitty on the woman. Blame yourself for letting it turn shitty by letting her run things. If your first mate is running the cohabitation show, you are not the captain.

That only seems to apply to scenarios that are not hipergamic enough. Its not an orthodox idea, so I will explain in more detail:

If you are a 7.5 or 8.0 male dating a 4.5, 5.0 female, you can move in with her and have her pay for shit while still Dreading. This gives you a lot of freedom.

I agree its not reasonable to let her move in with you on the situation you describe, but your point does not seem to adress the reverse scenario: you move into HER house while she makes more money than you.

The Strategy, then is:

If you only mate with women in the lowest possible biological bracket that you can still satisfy your "intimacy needs" with (sex+ emotions), instead of following the PUA ideal (and "biological imperative") of hooking up with the best possible mate, things might end up being objectively in your favor for the very same reasons you identify as disfavorable to us.

It is an adaptive strategy that only works in western feminist scenarios. It is a parasite strategy in many ways. But I believe it is probably objectively superior to solo MGTOW strategy in many ways (even if arguably less ethical and hard to pull off because most men do have high moral standards and take themselves seriously)

[deleted]

I don't know how this works in the US, but in some countries if you have a LTR and is living together for some time, the law consideres it almost like a marriage and if you broke up with her you could own money to her because "you made it during the relationship and therefore both are entitled to it"...

This is enough to not do it

I like most of what I read in this sub, but this is some dumb bullshit. Completely depends on the lady in question. OP obviously never lived with a cool chick.

Cohabitating with a woman? Kiss your freedom goodbye. You no longer have the freedom to come home from work and do what the fuck you want. You no longer have the freedom to be by yourself at home and unwind. You no longer have the freedom to go out when you want and do what you want. Each time you leave the house you have to check in with your woman and say where you are going and why and for how long and when you will be back. You no longer have the freedom to cook/eat what you want, when you want to.

LOL. This is not true at all. I live with my woman (unmarried), and she knows that I can (and will) do whatever the fuck I want, when I want.

But I get it, not everyone has it like this. You kids would rather live with your parents than face responsibility.

I think it's focusing on the cons only. I think this rule is reasonable as long as you have ,,Don't get married rule as well''. Because i can't imagine getting married with woman i havent shared home with for longer period of time. Hard to pick on Red Flags without it before getting married. And i sure want to test her before getting married. PS. Sorry for my english

Great post, OP. Something that needs to be mentioned: In many jurisdictions, you can NOT kick a cohabitator out without an eviction process once they have lived there 30 days! As a cop told me when I was having problems with a long-ago BPD GF, "If her toothbrush is on the sink, we can't remove her, you have to go through an eviction process."

Until she actually became violent and I was able to obtain an emergency move-out order from a judge, it was a 60-day process to remove her. Mind you, this was MY HOUSE I had lived in for 15 years at the time, and she'd lived there rent-free for around 6 months. As far as the law was concerned, she had at least as much right to be there as I did. (She tried to bait me into hitting her in order to live there in my house while I sat in jail, which I later found she'd done to two other men in the past.)

Dating in my late 30s and 40s has been much better; the women have their own houses and jobs.

Heed OP's message: Do not cohabitate before marriage!

Seriously, there needs to be some kind of easily accessible material on the sidebar that stresses why cohabitation is bad because these idiots come on here floating the idea like its not such a bad idea.

Agreed, I'll see about curating this on the AskTRP sidebar.

Here are some factors that make cohabiting so difficult today:

• Couples don't have children who would take the woman's attention and make her appreciate the man more.

• Communities have disintegrated by modern life which means most women don't have a group of friends in stable relationships with whom she could unload, so she needs to take it out on her man.

• Modern women are too dumb to understand they also need some alone time and ask for it, so she will act like a bitch to her man instead not even understanding herself why.

• Modern comfort and living standard means men don't have much to do outside work besides lounging in the house. Doing hobby things that are not needed will be interrupted by the woman.

• Pubs have become venues for hooking up and for alcoholics instead of places for men of the community to socialize.

• Property rights for women and made-up jobs for women means they own half of the place or pay half of rent. This lowers her respect for the man.

• Women despise a man who spends much more time with them than for sex.

• Keeping her missing you by working on/off schedules is more difficult because since no community exists anymore she will cheat on you without anybody finding out.

So what can you do if you want to cohabitate with a woman or are already doing it?

• Start ridiculous bullshit drama before she does so she can have something to be emotional about.

• Go visit friends for drinking and gambling in the nights. More difficult today since many jobs require you to be sober and many people have driving commutes.

• Get a job that is a week on/off or even a month on/off. Difficult because the lack of community means she can cheat on you without you knowing. Then again depending on job you increase your own opportunities to chase women.

• Build a man cave or work on another hobby like millions of other losers who can't even be in their own house because of their woman.

Solid post OP, but you could go easier on the Drill Sergeant Hardass writing style, too many contributors here use it already, it's getting tiresome and it hinders your message.

This advice simply doesn't make sense to me.

"Normal" LTR go this way. You 1st start dating, then 2nd you move in together (to see how well you handle each other in a totally different and new environment/dynamic) and lastly 3rd you get married. There's also the 4th step that comes later with divorce.

What OP is suggesting is to just skip 2nd step and that makes no sense at all. Living with one person is very very different than just hanging around together, even if all the time. It's really important in my point of view to have this test and live with the girl before even considering marrying her.

In fact cohabiting with someone only after marriage can become such a complication. Not only you get all the problems OP mentions but an extra layer of complication with all the stuff (legal and so on) that marriage involves.

Living together with your girlfriend allows you to share tasks. I arrive from work tired as f*ck! It feels great to have someone to cook me a meal and then afterwards I do the dishes or take the garbage out, or do some laundry, instead of having to do all this by myself.

Also feels good to arrive home and have someone to talk with, chill out or if I'm in the mood to be alone, I just go to a different division of the house and close the door, put some music or movie or tv-show or even read a book and there I am, completely alone.

Last but not least, the idea of not having to tell your LTR where you are going or what you will be doing just because you are not living together, is ludicrous! If you go frequently AWOL, most likely you have a fuck buddy and not a real girlfriend. Also most likely she is fucking around with other dudes while you are nowhere to be found. Expecting her to be at home all day waiting for you while you go skying is just silly. She will do other stuff, meet other people (which includes dudes) and you know what comes next when women have this type of freedom and time...

I'm disappointed by the amount of men on her who are trying to hamster away the fact that cohabitating is bad. Keep trying to say "well she's different and things are great." For now, but over time, she will nitpick everything you do and slowly lose attraction. Any drama you guys have is compounded, because you can't just leave or have her leave the place, because you both now live together.

I learned my lesson in my first LTR. We didn't even start living together, I stayed at her place a few nights a week because I was having trouble with a drug addict living in our shared accomodation.

I noticed the romance and passion slowly dying and she became more and more intolerable and more distant. I invited her over to break up with her and she did it before I got the chance.

I think what motivates most guys to live with their LTR is a constant supply of pussy and validation whenever they want. Unless you are way above her SMV and run impeccable game, the opposite happens. Just don't do it.

Even if you think you are RP as fuck, living on your own is waaaaay better anyway. Tomorrow I'm going kyaking for the first time and my girlfriend doesn't even know. That wouldn't be the case if we lived together.

Enjoy your freedom gents.

Cohabitating is fine. However, only in an RV. A man should be able to move his domicile at a moment's notice--leaving her hamstering by the side of the road. When she desperately texts/calls, you can genuinely reply, "I've moved on."

Learnt lesson hard way. Never ever this going to happen in my life again

TLDR of entire thread: If you are a low test pushover shitsack with no life goals who eats pizza everyday and can't even lift one fourth of your bodyweight don't let her move in.

The exception to this post: Family

You can look half dead but at the end of the day, blood is blood.

I lived togheter with 2 girls.

First time I wasnt redpill aware(not bluepill tho) second girl i knew about TRP.

With the first one it was really great for like first 8 months or so. Then she started to get bored or whatever.She tried to control me,massive shitesting,sex not everyday anymore etc. At first I tried to find out whats wrong and I was trying to change myself for her blabla - obviously didnt work. Then I decided to move out(we were renting togheter so no problem) - she apologized and started to try really hard to keep me around. When we kind of settled up BOOM! same situation again. Only this time I started to party hard,go out for whole nights come back drunk etc. Guess what happened? Yeah,she was jealous AF and started cooking,cleaning,taking care etc. I left her soon after anyway.

Second one I was TRP aware.She moved in to my house. From the start I proved her she can get replaced at any moment, I came out on my own whenver I wanted,said cleaning and cooking is her job,fucked her rough everyday etc. She was happy,cooking cleaning,buying me gifts and shit. The problem was that we were living in my home,so when we broke up it was kinda hard I that had to kick her out.Second problem was I didn't have a place to fuck other girls.

I'd say never let a girl move in to YOUR home. If you have a place you can go back to whenver you need,can keep frame and dont mind fucking that one girl only(or cheating on her) then you can try.

[deleted]

Who's "we"? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

This should be read as an opion piece.

You forgot a 3rd point, which is intertwined with the above:

The legislative bull that follows cohabitating

In a few select states (and countries I presume), once you have been cohabitating for a number of years (months), you would be viewed as being in common marriage, or just marriage, with all the perks and fun that it contains.

You want to throw her ass out of YOUR HOUSE which YOU PAID FOR? Well too bad, you can't!

Listen to these two very similar yet very different statements in court by men and women:

Woman: your honor, I got accustomed to a certain life style!! (queue the mild crying and the sad face)

Man: your honor, I got accustomed to a certain life style which I have worked my ass for. I bought this house. I bought the car. I payed for the yearly continental vacations. I bought every piece of furniture that's in the house.

Perhaps we gents here know what the right decision for a judge should be, but historically, it's rather evident that the justice system doesn't share our views on justice.

I have never cohabitated with a woman and never will. This post is gold. Think about it. You have to be on your A-game 24/7, when you are living with a woman. You go to work and you have to be focused around people. Then, you have to be home and "game" her and all that.

Plus, with a woman, you want to look as attractive as possible at all times. You don't want her to see you "at your worst" when maybe you are home lounging around in sweatpants. Or maybe you had a bad night out, feel like shit and threw up a little bit. That makes you look "vulnerable."

The problem in our society is living with your girlfriend is usually considered the next step. For some guys, you then think that "hey, I'm around my girlfriend or wife all the time, so more opportunity for sex." Unfortunately, that's not how it works.