Like many Red Pill Men, I'm angered by the problems wrought on our society by modern Feminism; from travesties like divorce rape, push beyond equality to entitlement, consequences removed (by taxpayers) from indiscriminate mating, false rape accusations without repercussion; to stupid things like the one in five men are would-be rapists claim and affirmative consent policies that fly in the face of natural human sexuality. Rather than complain about it and do nothing or worse argue and worsen the divide, I've figured out how to effortlessly make women realize they're against the most radical elements of Feminism, make this pushback resonate and spread through their social networks, all while sharing awesome sex with them. I'm going to tell you how, why, and invite you to join me in this venture.
Quick background I'm a child of the Womens' Lib era of the early '70s; always a believer in equality of opportunity, but never buying into the notion of privilege for women or retributions and injustices to men. Many of the women I've dated over the decades considered themselves some manner of Feminist, and sooner or later would pick up on some unfavorable hot button feminist meme. I used to get in heated arguments with them, which always resulted in them clinging to the foolish/harmful idea, and often rallying their friends to this idea and against Teh Patriarchy's newest face, namely me! Years of study and activism showed me the divisive harm and futility of arguing like this, effective methods of changing minds, and the power of grassroots effort toward counterpropaganda and pushback against harmful social trends and attitudes, and whatever you consider "The Matrix."
The Socratic Method When you tell people what to think or believe, you invoke resistance and argument. The effectiveness of the Socratic Method was discovered over 2,400 years ago. The best way to get a person to understand a new truth is to ask them a series of pointed questions, that culminate in the person realizing they understand this new truth, in light of knowledge they already possessed. When presented this way, the new idea is incorporated easily, without invoking resistance to an outside or foreign idea.
This proved to be a turning point in dealing with the Feminist inclinations in women I've dated. Instead of arguing about hot button Feminist issues, I'd maintain a calm, interested, benevolent frame, and respond with questions probing faulty assumptions or logic underlying the current claim. Not only does she back down from arguing with me about it, now she takes these unanswered questions to her group of friends who can't find answers either. This makes everyone in the group less likely to pass along the idea uncritically, but rather pass along the unanswerable questions. With the advent of social media, this effect is magnified; bad ideas stop being complimented and uncritically reposted, but sometimes criticized and called out.
Dale Carnegie + Red Pill insight One of his great principles of influencing people is,
"The only way to enter the citadel of a person's mind is arm in arm with the owner."
While pondering how increasing Red Pill knowledge has only improved my appeal and stupidity-deflecting powers among Feminists I date, the above quote made me realize the power of literally being arm-in-arm with a Feminist toward getting her to question and reject the stupid and unjust parts of feminism. Sexual attraction and ultimately sex is like a master key to unlock the blast door between male logic and female emotion. Asking the right questions and sowing doubt can simultaneously INCREASE a woman's attraction to you while potently enhancing her attention to and absorbtion of your feminism-contradicting questions.
Putting it into practice I'm dating a 22yo, very smart and going into neurology; but this semester she's knocking out some required courses including two womens' studies classes. Sometimes I've picked her up all fired up over the class discussion of the day, which I managed to parlay into passion for me and doubting the claptrap she was so certain about.
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Slut shaming I agreed that as a slur it was unacceptable, then asked her about replacement for social controls and outcomes like welfare mothers with multiple nonsupportive fathers. That ended our discussion of it but she later said she brought it up in class.
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Marriage She said something about men complaining about marriage being bad for men, and not understanding how men could feel that way when it's really bad for women. I spoke of the importance of good marriages beneficial to both parties. Then I asked about her knowledge of divorce laws, the aspects of the contract that are enforced against men versus women, child custody, policies that the man always gets arrested when there is a domestic violence call no matter who initiated the call. Then I asked her what risks women face in modern marriage compared to these and she couldn't answer. She said this provoked a lively debate in class, and the teacher wondered aloud what's going on with her.
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One in five men a rapist claim Agreed wholeheartedly that rape is terrible. I asked if she read the methodology of the study, the context of the question, the results of other hypothetical poll questions like would you rob a bank or murder a rival if you wouldn't get caught.
- Affirmative consent policies She started talking about this, and sexual assault being a big problem on campuses everywhere and how good it was that they were doing "something." I inquired as to whether she remembered being asked if I could hold her hand, hug her, kiss her, etc during our own courtship. I asked if she would be turned on by a boy asking over and over if he could kiss her or touch her here or there- vehemently NO! I asked if the rules include all of the clear nonverbal communication that is part of human sexual exploration, and if they really just exist for those men who can't or don't abide by these. THIS provoked a VERY strong and visceral connection in her to how correct I was, and an extra-lively discussion in class and more so with her friend. I hope her professor doesn't fail her.
Rather than unlovable, dogmatic, and man-hating Feminazis some claim are being indoctrinated by colleges across the US, I've found firsthand that not just old-guard Feminists but young women currently immersed in womens' studies curricula are responsive to a Red Pill relationship and ideas.
My challenge to Red Pill Men There are lots of threads on TRP railing against Feminism and Feminists. I understand some peoples' frustration and need to vent and have lived it myself, as well as critics who might say this isn't an MRA sub. That said, the problems of modern Feminism aren't going to fix themselves, and I've seen firsthand that women are especially receptive to subtle challenges from men they are attracted to. Plus, I've been reading all of you who report that Feminists love Alpha cock.
So my challenge to TRP men who are actively dating and might have rejected a woman who claims to be a feminist. See if you can try putting that aside, attract her to your Red Pill self, challenge her Feminist dogma while maintaining her attraction. See how far you can challenge her beliefs with gentle amused mastery instead of considering heated debate. See how this affects her social media behavior- positively commenting and reposting versus ignoring, challenging, and not passing along Feminist memes. See what Red Pill Truths you can get to reverberate around her Womens' Studies class if she's in one. When it winds down, see if you can leave her some level of Alpha Widow, always remembering the man who challenged her beliefs successfully, not the jerk who dumped her and justified the "men are evil" mindset.
Along the way, you are liable to discover that Feminism isn't the bogeyman that so many on this sub make it out to be. Also that even strong "Feminist" women are humans that love to fuck Alphas and can find a Red Pill Man attractive.
Try it and follow up I'm interested to hear what the sub thinks. In a month or two I'll report back how it's going with my girlfriend the erstwhile Feminist, and I'd love to hear reports from anyone else who finds enjoyment and success with this challenge. Edit: fix sentence, format
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therock6658 9y ago
This may get me a lot of downvotes but dating feminists, really?
I'm not that masochistic.
smokingmonkey420 9y ago
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." - Socrates
Sir_Shitlord_focker 9y ago
Sorry but either AWALT and the Socratic method won't do shit for you because they view you as disposable anyway, there's not notion of finding balance through logic or NOT AWALT then we can explore what you're proposing.
Both can't stand at the same time.
ForgeAndTemper 9y ago
Where can I learn more about this? Is it philosophy? Law?
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
Dale Carnegie's How to win friends and influence people is a canonical source for happy and effective human interaction and persuasion.
Debate and argumentation, logic and fallacies help with heavy, info-dense persuasion.
Salesmanship and even PUA material helps with brief encounters and passing simple and light messages.
Epistemology is the science of the nature of knowledge if you want to study deeply. Teaching techniques are the hands-on branch of this subject.
Many areas of study come to bear when changing prevailing belief systems in society at large. So much information is available on the internet; this is truly a golden age for the thinking man!
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FLFTW16 9y ago
Firstly I want to say: well written post. Cogent, well ordered, and flows well. I like your writing style.
OK now:
Everything else written further convinces me that women, even the most capable and intelligent, are mostly incapable of thinking for themselves and must be led by a man. This doesn't make me a misogynist because I love women, I just recognize that they need to be led by a man.
I remember what it was like to be a teen and early 20s college student. Even when I was a thoroughly blue pill entirely brainwashed liberal, when I took a women's studies class my head was spinning due to their bullshit logic. All the women were nodding their heads and balling their fists against the 'patriarchy', and I was the lone person in the classroom that insisted that studies with a sample size of N=28 is not fucking science. It's ideological propaganda. Hell, even my senior thesis had an N of more than 100 and our professors drilled it into us that at the end of the day this is child's play, none of it could be published.
The every day lived experience of men is that women can't use logic. This was common knowledge for thousands of years. And when men built empires and republics they made sure women didn't vote. They were neither expected to die defending the State, nor were they allowed a say in how it was managed. This made perfect sense to men for a long long long time.
I think there is something truly wrong with modern men to have forgotten this. They say that T levels are decreasing every decade. Men are becoming less and less masculine over time. As we lose our own ability to rational thought we are becoming more and more susceptible to brainwashing, like the idea that women are as strong as men, that women are as logical as men, that a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. All of it is bullshit brainwashing. That men have forgotten what women are is because we are less manly than our forefathers.
It is no surprise then that natural alphas tend to be jacked, full of muscle and testosterone, immune to female bullshit--and that men who unplug then recognize the necessity of lifting and upping their T.
newls 9y ago
If I could give you one of those Mars symbols I would for this paragraph and indeed the rest of the post.
I find it amusing how genuinely smart girls are so easy to influence and control.
They're all just little girls inside, desperately wandering around this scary world looking for a daddy to hold their hand.
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68461674897051454980 9y ago
i have bad news for you bro... you are either delusional as fuck, or as emotional/irrational as a woman, which is why their logic doesn't surprise you
i dont know which would be worse
RPB1 9y ago
Probably a woman pretending to be a man. They all argue the same and think they're being clever. It's possible that dude is that delusional; either way it's not worth arguing with further.
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[deleted] 9y ago
Are the points "troubling" (in other words you don't like their tone), or are the points refutable?
AWALT exists because it's useful.
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[deleted] 9y ago
It's useful. Every unicorn I thought I'd found ended up confirming AWALT. Women are followers and need boundaries. For all intents and purposes this should be assumed true in the same way that large game should be considered dangerous. Just because fringe exceptions may exist doesn't mean there's any use in giving a bear the benefit of the doubt.
RPB1 9y ago
You said 'feel' rather than 'think', which already shows that you are operating from the level of emotion rather than logic.
The exceptions do not disprove the rule nor are they relevant; the moment you have to argue a rule with an exception is the moment you prove the existence of the rule.
The very science of psychology, marketing, and social dynamics is based on the notion that All People Are Like That, ergo it follows that men and women exhibit gender specific behaviors that are observable and verifiable.
If you cannot understand how AWALT, then you need to read the sidebar and digest the information properly before coming at us with NAWALT.
Your thinly veiled white knighting is devoid of any substantive rebuttal, considering that the immense knowledge base of TRP was acquired via the direct experience of a statistically significant majority of men over generations that contradict your own.
Similarly, a comment on the internet isn't going to re-write the personal histories of most RPers that can vouch for every principle espoused here. This is what we've been through, not what we speculate.
Whether you like it or not, women can be put into a box of traits. If I say that women have a womb; I don't have to semantically account for those who have undergone a hysterectomy.
Finding an idea offensive is not evidence or proof that it is wrong.
My suggestion is that you thoroughly digest the information and data contained not only within the sidebar but the top field reports.
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RPB1 9y ago
Is that really the best you can do?
If you actually have a pair of testicles between your legs, you haven't experienced much. If you honestly think that TRP subscribers are the only people who have had the experiences that brought us here to compare notes, then you haven't been paying attention.
Bad form buddy.
You mad bro? If you're shooting flak I must be over the target. Thanks for demonstrating you're operating from emotion rather than logic by the way.
Nothing you said resembled a rational or nuanced argument, just not-so-artful dodging and a clear admission that you have no idea what you're talking about.
You're arguing in circles and contradicting yourself while saying absolutely nothing.
You aren't here to discuss ideas or even evaluate them (considering your deliberate avoidance of the sidebar), you're here to proselytize which you ironically accuse me of.
There are so many glaring holes in your 'logic' I would almost suspect you're a woman playing at a man. Wouldn't be the first time. In any case dismantling your 'argument' point by point is hardly worth the effort it would take since you admittedly only care to reinforce your own beliefs rather than put them under statistical or scientific scrutiny.
You can leave TRP now; you got us fucked up if you really think shoddy logic and emotional outbursts are going to get you anywhere around these parts.
You obviously have nothing of value to offer, you have provided no proof or evidence (and refuse to for that matter), and have deluded yourself into thinking you actually know anything about human nature or women. Clearly you are only interested in trying to persuade others that core RP tenets are inaccurate (despite the mountain of evidence supporting them which are also in the sidebar you conveniently ignore).
Just another blue-pill shill. I can smell you guys a mile away which is why I gave you just enough rope to hang yourself with.
Have fun with that.
EDIT: Formatting
qiang_shi 9y ago
In any case, the [deleted] provided a useful canvas for examining the irrational and confused male.
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rpscrote 9y ago
You keep saying we have no evidence. Well post your own contradictory evidence or shut the fuck up. Complaining a point is unsupported by data provides no value to anyone.
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FLFTW16 9y ago
I don't have to. The data seems to point to the fact that women are incapable of managing their own lives. The "I'm a strong woman I don't need no man" bit is nothing but posturing.
The average women is more self-interested and Machiavellian than the average man. This doesn't mean that she is capable of managing her own life in a way that will lead her to lasting happiness. Women require men, and more than that--a patriarchal system--lest they fall into depression.
I don't mean to paint the picture that women are like less-evolved apes that can't parallel park their own cars or hold down a 9-5 job. Clearly they can do just about everything men can do that doesn't require brute strength or courage in great numbers.
Really? Try telling a woman who his getting up there in age that childbirth is best left to "young" women. In fact, try having any rational discussion about age with most women. When the points hit close to home, their hamster can run at light-speed. "Hmmm I'm almost 40 and still single. Better freeze those eggs so I can have kids when I meet Mr. Right when I'm 50! I hear it's the new 30!" This is the lack of logic to which I am referring. While it seems like the logical thing to do when you have already gone down the garden path and you are left with ever diminishing options and time, the truly logical thing is to admit you fucked up your life and you make poor decisions.
You just about never hear of a man hitting 40 years old and then saying to himself "OK I want to be a doctor, now!" It's too fucking late, you made your choices already, you can't go back in time and do all the steps required to get to that. This is what many women are doing with motherhood, today. And the smarter they are (on paper), the more brainwashed and more poorly they manage their youth.
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MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
I've observed the Sexual Politics arena long enough to observe most people reach a peak of leftist/feminist/whateverist radicalism during college years, but rapidly settle into a more mainstream lifelong frame quite soon after college, often on the first day of the job, discovering the hard way that their seasoned colleagues don't toe the radical line or countenance the rhetoric that prevailed in the sandbox of college.
Many of the biggest names and most radical figures of the Womens' Lib era later publically recanted their young idealistic feminist notions, as they matured and found regret in not having families etc.
The earlier young women gain an understanding of the true nature of the radical parts of Feminism, the earlier in their lives they come to this inevitable reckoning and settle into a more realistic adult frame. Inducing this awakening earlier in the college years puts counter-propaganda right in to the heart of radical Feminism's best refuge and incubator.
Debate and arguing alone only hardened these undesirable attitudes; having the influence and credibility of a competent lover opens the door for more subtle, effective, and durable softening and eventual rejection of Feminism.
I'm not writing about how I wish I could change the influence of Feminism in women I've known, I'm reporting what I have actually DONE and have watched WORK!
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FLFTW16 9y ago
You are approaching this topic as if men and women are the same and therefore when I say women are irrational or not logical, that it is implying that they are inferior to men. Men and women are not the same. I am not putting women down.
I'm merely stating the fact that women need men to lead them through life. Firstly, they need a father, if possible an older brother, and finally a husband. Men also need to be led by other men through life. First a father, a teacher, a tutor, a drill sergeant, a boss, a mentor, a priest.
Both men and women self destruct in different ways in the absence of male guidance. I think men are more matter of fact about it. Watching some documentaries on Los Angeles gang members, they readily admit that they had no family, and the gang became their family. I mean, they are fucking telling the camera point blank I NEED A FAMILY OR I WILL LEAD A LIFE OF CRIME.
Women self destruct in more subtle ways. They squander their youth, they convince themselves that they are 9s when really they are 5s. They put off childbearing until less-than-optimal time. They ride the CC. They climb the corporate ladder to the point where they are so stressed they can't cope with it, and never realize that their very presence in that social strata has eliminated a spot for a man, thus making eligible bachelors more and more rare. They vote for bigger and bigger government but it never quite works as well as advertised. During all this they are reading THOUGHT CATALOG articles and learning fat acceptance because real women have curves.
smokingmonkey420 9y ago
True. TRP has been like a surrogate father figure in my opinion. Teaching all the lessons of masculinity and self-respect that no men in my real life seem to understand anymore.
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[deleted] 9y ago
You're inferring that, but it's not necessarily the logical conclusion. Men and women are different and have different natural strengths. Men are demonstrably better leaders than women. Not only are their studies that show this, but biology itself suggests it, because when men lead they experience neurobiological changes that lead them to feel good, but when women lead their neurobiology leads them to feel stressed.
Women, on the other hand, have way more oxytocin than men and thus are generally more nurturing and intuitive. This is one of their strengths.
theHangedGod 9y ago
Man, I'm with FLFTW16 on these points.
The men who without active father's in their lives that I know are all currently in a suck of a relationship with that one girl from high school. Even though 2 out of the 3 have been cheated on. 95% of the people I know well had well structured upbringing though, so I'm not super knowledgeable on this.
Leaders and followers are not so black and white. Your mention of your job is a good example, you follow your boss when she is better suited to lead, but when your are more prepared for a situation she follows you. Protect this into general interaction and life decisions where no one has a degree. A man who can take the lead in any of these general life situations by garnering the support and confidence of those around him, is a stronger person than 99% of the general population and 100% of women. It is the innate nature of an estrogen dominated being. No woman wants to decide where she takes you on the first date, that date would not happen. No woman wants to approach a man in broad daylight and ask for his phone number.
No woman wants to take charge over others, because if her actions were to be denied she would take it emotionally. Women want an out on responsibility for their actions, they want to submit to someone so they can rationalize away any blame and stay emotionally unhurt. Next time your boss makes a questionable decision, ask for the reasons behind that action, see if she defers responsibility to someone else.
As far as the gang member stuff, I think you really need to watch Mike Tyson's documentary from 2008. He was a crook, hoodlum, gang member until Cus D'Amato took him under his wing and showed him how to be. And I think your really limiting what a father figure can be in life.
Personally, my father had given me nearly everything I have (I'm 19 as of now). He is a business owner and gave me a job (when I'm not in college), teaching me responsibility by let me purchase ownership in his business and putting me in charge of a lot of the operation, he has taught me how to act with people (frame stuff), he literally taught me how to take care of myself hygiene, nutrition, and otherwise, he taught me how to think and use rationality to govern myself and my actions, he told me that he would fully support any decision I make with a rational explanation behind it and that's a major influence in every major decision I make.
For the first 14 years of my life he was literally my model for God, now he's my model for myself and my own success. I would say he is the absolute most valuable thing in my life.
KingMinish 9y ago
I wish my father had been in my life.
rpscrote 9y ago
We're not trying to fuck men, so that's irrelevant.
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SILENTSAM69 9y ago
I once did something like this. I often showed up to the feminist groups meetings. The girls there liked to hang out with me despite my laughing off their ideas.
At one meeting I had a lesbian feminist angrily going at me with her ideas which I calmly questioned and pointed out flaws in. She had a friend who quietly listened to us both.
Well to make a long story short her friend left with me and this seemed to annoy the lesbian.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
Great report- this guy gets it! It's pretty bold of you to have taken on actual feminist meetings, but it goes to show that approaching the situation open mindedly with charisma and mutual interest in viewpoints (instead of hostility and rejection) can not only ferry your own ideas into such a "hostile" group, but at the same time YOU come to understand this variety of women in greater detail. This leads to better interactions in the future, and removes any fear of another unknown from our minds, replacing it with another area of amused mastery in our lives.
And it got the man laid! Well played, Sir!
Conphas 9y ago
A quote from Nietzsche which I've always been fond of:
NeoreactionSafe 9y ago
Here's a good example:
Red Pill: "There is a hierarchy to sexual attraction."
Feminist: "No, we are all equal."
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newls 9y ago
"Can you name three women you know who were paid less because they're women? And then can you tell me why they haven't sued, because that's illegal?"
MattyAnon Admin 9y ago
Yeah... no. It is. It really is. You're meeting enlightened intelligent women. All the others will not enter into any discussion about it - they just attack you and attack men.
I am not interested in having a nice gentle discussion from multiple points of view with someone whose kneejerk reaction is to instantly attack me, my gender, my gender's
priveledgeachievements.Feminists are out to get everything and they don't care that it is at someone else's expense. They lie, cheat, trick, manipulate, attack and try to shame me using a bizarre combination of emotion and shaming. If nothing else works, they will bizarrely make an oblique threat to withhold sex to try to control me ("You'll never get laid with those attitudes").
So no... I am not interest in playing softly softly with their delicate feelings nor including the words "warning: trigger alert, potential rapist speaking" before I speak.
I'd much rather start logically and then laugh at them for being fucking ridiculous, and point out that what they are pushing for is the exact opposite of what men want.
spectrum_92 9y ago
Great post, there aren't enough like it on this sub.
Like you said, many on this sub argue we aren't an MRA community or that there's no point even trying to argue with women because they're 'incapable of rational thought' or some ridiculous bullshit like that. The truth is, it's worth challenging the pseudoscience of Women's Studies and making women realise the evils of feminism. Sure, there's no need to make it your life mission or anything, but if you can say you've made a dozen or so women in your life completely turn away from feminism, than i think you've done a small but decent favour for mankind.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
Well said, and I think a lot of critics are responding from a place of defense of their hardcore AFALT beliefs, therefore overestimating the amount of change and effort this would require of themselves, and underestimating the long-term effects it will have on the women they might apply it to, and society at large.
Beliefs and stereotypes are reinforced up or down at every interaction. Sure, if you walk up to the hardest-core feminist AT a rally or protest, you'd have a near-impossible time challenging her Feminist ideas, and the effort would harden her attitudes and the attitudes of every other woman who witnesses and/or discusses the interaction.
However, if you are dating one of her less-radical cohorts, making her happy and satisfied as a woman, while actually living as a Red Pill Man therefore a living embodiment of challenge to hardcore Feminist dogma, every woman who witnesses and discusses this will subtly have the strength of their beliefs challenged and weakened within their own minds, without you saying a word to them! Even the hardest core members of your happy GF's social circle might challenge her aloud, but the cognitive dissonance WILL take place with far greater strength in their minds, witnessing one of their Sisters happy with a man who challenges their hivemind beliefs, than it would if you challenged them verbally.
Vaganusaurus 9y ago
Nothing fucks with an argumentative person more than asking good questions.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
True, and what really kicks it into overdrive is when you become more calm and quiet, the more agitated, loud, and upset they become.
Asking instead of telling helps sneak your ideas past defense mechanisms; so does keeping open opportunities for the other person to save face. Learn not to push all the way to making the person change their mind right there in front of you, and the amount and durability of new ideas retained by them skyrockets.
FrameWalker 9y ago
Don't underestimate the intelligence of your girlfriend. Her girl game was good enough to get you to commit. Its in her best interest to lull you into a false sense of security.
CountOmar 9y ago
Peceptive. After all, women are adaptive. They are often fiercely capable of doing what is in their best interest.
AlphaKarma 9y ago
Love the post. I dont have much to add other then you have put voice to my thoughts very well. Im glad there are other people on this sub who are not automatically against all of Feminism. Did you take any philosophy in post secondary?
Great post. I really appreciate it. I think it is completely possible to be a Red Pill man and accept and even love aspects of Feminism and the women and men who believe in it.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
I chose a career in industry right out of high school; I was an advanced placement student but somewhat of a Sigma and first year college felt like grade 13 with the same shitheads from high school. I've always been an autodidact though, with shelves and shelves of books I've read through, now getting dusty thanks to the internet. Knowledge is awesome, and we're living in a golden age.
Agreed- divide and conquer is a tool of social control, and extreme polarization with hostility to dissenting opinions has become the unfortunate norm in the North American sociopolitical realm. If you think about it, it's really plugged-in behavior and surprising to find so common on this sub.
The reality is, humans don't fall neatly into distinct pigeonhole categories, with all the same positions across the board each with the exact same boundaries and strength. Not only are there infinite variations and gradations within these, people change over time and the timing and pace of this change is influenced by every interaction with others. These changes usually happen slowly and subtly, not in a rapid large conspicuous conversion event like so many persuaders expect.
It takes only a slight shift in thoughts and behaviors for a Red Pill Man to change from blocking and clashing with feminism, to accepting it as a given in society but guiding it the direction he'd like to see, even one woman at a time. For what is a society, but the sum total of all the beliefs and interactions of the people within it?
I suppose one's willingness to consider my thought experiment seriously is down to whether they imagine the apotheosis of Red Pill Man as an apex Dark Triad sitting astride society, or some manner of Ubermensch at an apex position within it.
mykonos_rm 9y ago
You're only engaging in this because you've already established a relationship with her, but really all your doing holding is debating a subject matter she has no real interest in to begin with.
The only way you need to deal with feminist is making them send you a text of context that they want anal.
[deleted] 9y ago
Can you tell me more about the context questions, or show me a link? I'm not debating the point, but I have not heard this and I'm curious.
karmacrunch 9y ago
Thanks its weird ever since swallowing TRP I've found most of the girls I'm hooking up with are feminists, infact I have a radical tumblrista, buzzfeed, SRS, etc etc plate at the moment. She's been pretty deluded, she is very weird when we first started fucking she told me used to tie her BF up and shit, but I simply laughed when she suggested that with us, I've been dominant and rough with her and the sex is great - go figure. I'm somewhat nervous about asking stuff like the above, as I said she's pretty radical and could go apeshit, I've been displaying apathy towards social issues, not engaing her whenever she starts talking about feminism etc, in order to maintain her as a plate.
NightwingTRP 9y ago
A good argument contains some rhetoric to make it easier to swallow. Shame that this whole thing rests on the assumption that the woman is open minded and has the intelligence to comprehend when her views rest upon certain assumptions. This will not work across the board. Many women (thanks to the lowering of standards for everything female) have not developed either an open mind for self-improvement or developed their intelligence and understanding of topics beyond shopping and shoes.
Additionally, once back in their group, a woman will rejoin the hivemind rather than risk becoming a social outcast. Feminists are for pump and dumps. Nothing more. We have no interest in saving them or changing them. If changing the world is your mission, then head for politics or big business and get to the top (assuming you don't have your principles corrupted along the way obviously.) Otherwise, you should steer clear of this minefield.
LadyLumen 9y ago
I actually used to have some feminist points of view. But then after seeing some of the articles on the manosphere (posted by a Feminst friend ironically) I changed my mind.
People can change their minds all the time. If you present the situation like an argument, they will close their minds. But it you make it an open ended discussion, people may be more likely to question their assumptions. Not everyone will, but some will.
After all, just remember that Feminist ideas are very new. So new that women in our grandmother's generation agreed with most RP logic. If women can be convinced to believe in Feminist ideas in just one generation, then they can be unconvinced in one generation as well.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
My discovery in this situation has been that rhetoric makes every discussion an argument, which always ended badly for me. Good lovin' plus small seeds of doubt proved effective in breaking through the impulse to adhere to anything Feminist, adding credibility to my position in her mind, not to mention much fun for both of us.
That's always a risk, but I'm finding that a satisfied girlfriend can carry seeds of doubt that steer the hivemind, sometimes with the agility of an aircraft carrier; but with a penetration I couldn't manage myself.
My selection process filters away these type of college girls, otherwise yeah that would be a problem.
Who's we? I agree this isn't for everyone here nor any Feminist, of course. For those who would next an otherwise attractive prospect at the word Feminist, maybe give it a try.
strps 9y ago
I come from the same era (no pun intended) as you do, when feminism fought for genuine social equality and feminists of the time understood that there were implicit social responsibilities that would come with that. My mom's interest in being a part of those groups had an influence on my outlook growing up, and I definitely believe that legal equality is important in a modern society. I have also spent a great deal of time teaching classes with a focus on socratic dialogue as our means of interaction, so I feel that I really understand where you are coming from.
I agree with you that when used as a means of moving around a topic with questions it makes it much easier to speak and be heard, and maybe even to give up an obsession with one's own point of view. As in learning together. In my experience it is this kind of attitude, the willingness to create and be in a space where everyone's attitudes and thoughts are considered, that usually opens people up to seeing things differently, and logically superior arguments.
Learning together in the sense of including everyone in a discussion doesn't mean accepting people's ill informed arguments as fact or their knee jerk responses as the correct tone, it simply means that I understand that their contribution is part of the whole range of responses to a topic, and is part of the territory that needs to be addressed when formulating questions that can be related to. In the most general terms, it's best not to make enemies out of people I don't have to, and the result is that people (who vehemently disagree with me and my point of view initially) are open to hearing the questions I bring to the table on a subject, which is where we all begin to grow in terms of broadening our perspective. Learning how to talk to people this way is a key to genuine friendship, but is also relevant to many transactions in adult life, including leadership and win-win business negotiations. And it's pretty simple.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
Thanks for expanding on group learning; I've not had an opportunity to teach with socratic method to a group or class, but it has worked well for me on the individual level.
That pun was awesome too.
NightwingTRP 9y ago
Look bro, you want to go waste your time then be my guest. Ultimately TRP takes the stance that there are some agreed facts of reality and then there are some pieces of advice like "don't get married" which are generally agreed upon... but at the end of the day I'm a big believer in the Bruce Lee Principle. "Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own."
From my experience watching how people think and argue, it's a waste of time trying to convince the average person to change their views on anything because they'll forget and change back a few days later. This from the guy who convinced a room of 100+ so-called "liberal minded" students that cold-blooded murder is perfectly acceptable in any situation where I tell them it is. People are mostly sheep and your influence only lasts for so long. I don't tell you this to shoot you down, I'm providing my experience so that you can avoid wasting your time. That said, if you're looking to engage in this discussion to find truth for yourself rather than exclusively pushing your views then I will quickly run down your responses.
My point was missed so I'll restate it. Rhetoric is one part of an ideal argument. This is because it taps into the emotions. It's why it is so good for leading women. My point was a statement, not really a discussion point.
I disagree. They'll just be rejected from their social group or shamed into submission. Since women are naturally submissive, you know how this ends.
So you concede my point that this significant chunk of the hivemind simply can't be changed by your method. Your method has more use for application to LTR theory rather than overall change.
This is the generally agreed upon ideas I mentioned earlier. TRP typically does not think women need to be saved or that it is our responsibility to save them from themselves.
Women identifying as a feminist will still be considered a significant red flag under the LTR theory I've read. It just implies too many negative things which are not worth dealing with. An "otherwise attractive prospect" as you put it would be highly unlikely to identify as a feminist because she would be displaying a number of green flags. Typically such a woman is likely to distance herself from feminism. So I'm afraid I don't buy the application. I'd recommend you continue reading the LTR game theory here because it will help you build the right foundations. However if you think one LTR is going to have any impact on her wider circle of feminist-minded friends then I think you'll be in for a rude awakening.
Take all that how you want. I've contributed what I can here.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
I really appreciate the effort to show and explain your position so well, even though it's down to "You've listed reasons why this won't work and shouldn't be bothered with, and I've listed ways it has and reasons it should be."
Not quite. The hivemind can't be directly challenged by me, or one member dating me; but the one member dating me can and does bring my ideas and arguments back to the hive, spreading them like varroa mites through the hivemind. Direct challenges would obviously raise defenses; I believe that the ideas surreptitiously pass through while talking about each others' boyfriends and relationships.
Thanks for mentioning this, but my motivation is NOT to save women. It is to subtly convert relayers of harmful feminist ideas and memes into terminators and blockers of their propagation. This is for the good of men who are harmed by these ideas and their social and legal implementations. There are benefits to women too, but these are secondary.
I don't hold unrealistic expectations for the short term outcome of ONE person that I am dating. I'm thinking of the bigger picture, a bottom-up "resistance" to the juggernaut of modern Feminism by injecting counter-propaganda through a fun and unique method. I should have specified, this can be applied to whatever length relationship cycle you normally prefer, not only LTRs.
Speaking of LTR info and theory on this sub, it's something I've been most interested in and gotten the most pushback over, from plate spinning types on here. Thanks again for your contribution.
NightwingTRP 9y ago
There's plenty of good LTR information available on the sub. Though opinion is obviously divided between the guys who want to spin plates, LTR or go MGTOW. If you're interested in further reading on LTRs I would recommend:
The basics
This excellent 8 part LTR series
Beyond that, it's down to you to make your own mind up and calibrate according to what suits you individually and your woman.
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dancing_junkie 9y ago
And that classifies you in that group. We all maintain statues of TRP main arguments but with specifics all men go their own ways. Saying we might need to be changed to me and others. I'm not in agreeance with one or the other.
alpha_n3rd 9y ago
Because almost all women self identify as feminists.
spectrum_92 9y ago
I disagree with this a lot, you may have just come across a very particular demographic group, like college girls.
IceBunz 9y ago
When I asked a chick in high school if she was a feminist, she said "ofcourse I am, I'm a woman/female!". Ofcourse I'm a nazi, I'm a German. Ofcourse I'm a dirty communist, duh, I come from Russia.
(This is in Sweden by the way, I don't know what I expected, it wasn't a hostile question or anything I just randomly asked a girl I barely knew if she bought into that ideology.)
hairaware 9y ago
not really. Most women think of the term feminist in a negative way and would rather not be associated with it.
alpha_n3rd 9y ago
you must not live in my universe
hairaware 9y ago
I don't really associate with fat people or ugly women that often. That's likely the case. I work in a gym as well so all my coworkers are fairly attractive and young.
newls 9y ago
I know a girl from school who identifies as a feminist and made one of those Facebook posts holding up a poster on International Women's Day.
Nice girl and intelligent (got top grades in proper subjects) but plain features and has a weird pear-shaped figure. I'm pretty sure she's a virgin. The feminist stereotypes are almost always true.
She blogs about her depression once every few months, so she ticks another feminist stereotype box.
It's ironic, all feminists would probably be much happier with a good strong man in their lives.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
Grooming a mundane Feminist all the way to a RPW is a daunting task beyond the scale of what I'm recommending people attempt here. My suggestion is, rather than reject her out of hand, or walk her all the way down the path of enlightenment; find a sweet spot of enjoying each others' company as lovers for days/weeks/months to taste, and leave her less inclined to accept Feminism uncritically and more inclined to accept Red Pill Truths than she would have been without you. Kind of a camping rule for sexual politics.
antariusz 9y ago
In this next thread/throwaway account, OP will be positing about how we should all be dating single mothers, and after that - post wall women.
Fact: feminists are disgusting and I refuse to reward their terrible behavior with my attentions. Stop trying to shame me into dating them. I'm not interested.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
Irony: To distance yourself from engaging Feminism, you used classic SJW and Feminist shaming language.
Not sure how my post comes of as shaming anyone into doing anything. I'm showing what worked for me and under which circumstances, in response to all the TRP posts decrying Feminism and its effects upon us men, yet offering no practical solutions. Rather than concern trolling these threads, I'm putting into action the "Post the content you want to see instead" idea that was recently discussed.
Even for those who won't consider actually dating a feminist, this could be an insightful thought experiment.
antariusz 9y ago
It's called black knighting.
Feminists are not good for anything but a pump and dump, and the best way to achieve that is using their own language so they can identify with you (there is a term for this form of mimicking their style but I can't think of it right now) and get them someplace private and escalate, the same as any other woman. As soon as a woman actually wants a long-term relationship with a (non-beta), she'll drop the feminist act. This will usually be around 26. I don't mind Af/bb now that I get the benefits of AF relationships with 18-22 year olds.
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MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
It IS a practical solution, on the individual level. Push away anyone who brings up Feminism, never have to deal with it for long. I can't blame any man for choosing this path, and this was my response for the years between arguing in vain, and figuring out ways to engage and modify obnoxious Feminist beliefs in the women I was dating. However, in the big picture this does nothing to address the root of the problem, and by default cedes the social consensus to the always-vocal Feminists.
There have been times in my life when it wasn't possible or desirable to go this route. At this point, with my home and business stable and an abundance of women available to satiate the desire for a variety of new easy lovers, I'm reaching beyond the low-hanging fruit to satisfy the loftier reaches of the hierarchy of human needs. A solution that helps not only myself but possibly society at large becomes worth the extra effort in this position.
antariusz 9y ago
Like I said in my other post, most women drop the feminist act around 26, when they see all their friends "happy" being single mothers, and they want a man to commit to them. This already happens on its own. Don't date feminists, let them get fucked up via the CC, and they'll figure out on their own that they need to change.
vengefully_yours 9y ago
My second wife claimed to be a feminist, and she was absolutely stunned at the lengths my home state went to extracting money from me, the way I was punished for being male, and how utterly repugnant my first wife became with the state acting as her enforcer. She agreed my two daughters should have been with me, but since I am the father it wouldn't happen. She saw the effects on my kids that their mother's poor choices created, the effect it had on her and I financially, and how ineffective lawyers were at making anything better for my kids or her and I despite having money thrown at them.
She saw it all first hand. She also had a job where she was paid more simply because she was a girl, but still believed the Dworkin myth of a pay gap with women on the down side. Pointing that out to her caused cognitive dissonance and made her angry, but when she calmed down, she would realize it was bullshit.
When I kicked her out for wanting to fuck this loser kid while I paid for everything, she got "you go girl" from her feminist mother, sisters, and friends. Her sister told me it's "not your job to protect her" and "she wants to be happy". Now, two years later, she is miserable, lives with her parents at 32, he is 25 and lives with his parents too. She has no money, has to ask her 73 year old dad for money, a car, and everything else. She has a part time job that she is fucking up and is about to lose. Her boyfriend can't keep one because he is a control freak that wants desperately to be in charge but is unwilling to put in the work to earn the position, so he gets fired within two months. It doesn't help that he fucks up everything he touches because he thinks he is an expert, but knows jack shit about fuck. I know about 50 people who worked with him, and everyone she works with including her boss who is a good friend of mine (how she got the job) and this is the resounding consensus about them at work.
But "you go girl" is making her happy. Her friends and family think I should support her because we were married for the last 18 months of our 9 year relationship. So strong and independent they are. She learned something though, not to be a complete cunt like the first one. She didn't ask for anything that was mine, and no support from me. She is learning a hard lesson now, not to fuck up the best thing that will ever happen to you on a whim. Feminism fucked up her life, now she has to live with her bad choices.
User-31f64a4e 9y ago
I think this can work, but we all have to do it.
Below somewhere, veggiegirl writes
Actually, there is. The mass is a bunch of individuals. Just as the feminists were brainwashed one at a time, they need to be deprogrammed one at a time. IF everyone with RP knowledge began to do this, it would have an effect. Just look at the backlash against the excesses of feminism (shirtgate, gamergate in a tangential way, Ban Bossy, UVa Rape Hoax, etc. etc.) - feminism has jumped the shark, and the ground for pushing it back is more fertile now than at any time in the recent past.
==
Numerous comments in here discuss concerns over relapse. Sure. But the thing is once a doubt is planted, it's there. Uncritical acceptance will be just that much harder for a woman who is deprogrammed, even just momentarily.
==
Again, veggiegirl:
No doubt, mangina quislings and collaborators will need to be deprogrammed as well. Matt Binder is as much of a problem as Jessica Valenti; Roger Goodell is as much of a problem as Gloria Allred. Manginas can hopefully be reached with the Socratic method, although there won't be the attraction thing going. Perhaps a greater capacity for logic will help, though.
To be honest though, I don't really have a lot of hope for those examples above; they seem like apex feminists and apex manginas, with their egos tied to feminism. But here's the thing: we don't need to convert the crazies, the apex gender feminists and the apex manginas. Once feminism and women's studies is widely held in contempt, they won't matter any more than the people out there loudly proclaiming that the earth is flat. They are out there, but nobody sane finds them persuasive.
And one of my examples, Roger Goodell, example typifies business generally - like politicians, they'll go which ever way the wind is blowing. Once nobody supports female crazies attacking the NFL, we can go back to letting personal lives be personal and day jobs be day jobs. This applies to media (Kung Fu chicks in movies tossing around guys like rag dolls, a female Thor, incompetent sitcom males, etc. etc.) as well.
==
So the /r/theredpill posts as they currently are, those are fine.
If people want to add suggested leading questions to make people think about their topics, that would be a constructive addition. Sort of like talking points, but rather question points. Not required though, people should be able to generate their own once they master the facts. The simple act of posting relevant material here is appreciated plenty, at least by me.
TheRedPilsner 9y ago
It's nice to see Dale Carnegie mentioned here. How to Win Friends and Influence People really is one of the best self-help books ever written. I've recommended it to countless people. It's definitely helped with my own social interactions.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
Agreed, I've read it a few times and given away several copies over the years. I wish it had been mandatory in High School.
newbie3hunna 9y ago
Sure some dolt college student who has taken 2 classes and you are currently fucking might listen. You are taking time to craft a good strategy and pushing your views in a very non confrontational way. And I agree that in these causes, why not save the stupid bitch? She doesn't know any better and will likely see the error in her ways and fall back into a more pleasant frame.
But in cases with real feminists, you will be called a racist, sexist, rape apologist. These people are just waiting for the chance for someone to try to tell them 1 in 5 men aren't criminally insane rapist. This is what they fucking live for.
That would be like trying to go onto TRP and say, "Why do you think AWALT? Have you considered it's possible this logic doesn't check out?". It would be instantly obvious what the persons motives were and they would be told to fuck off. This is exactly how feminists feel. Trying to make a rational agreement with them is literally the most shit lord thing you can do, even more so than just yelling at them, because it forces them to confront the illogical ideas they are spitting. This will be rejected with everything in their power and they will hate you.
Now is this a good strategy for banging college wanna be feminists and making them more pleasant? Sure! And for that I respect your post. But this idea to basically man up and start spending valuable time convincing jaded whores to see things our way is fucking retarded. Like has already been said, after you get done fucking her and she is back in the wild, all these ideas will be completely gone and people will convince her you were a piece of shit sexist when she brings them up.
I feel you you got one dumb college feminist g/f and now you are spouting this as some sort of holy grail of social change. Just fuck feminist, agree with them, than leave when you find a girl who isn't jaded and mentally ill.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
I understand the skepticism, and agree that for a given Red Pill Man, the pool of feminists with whom this would prove beneficial and effective is limited.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough that women of my generation pretty much ALL self-identify as SOME manner of "feminist." Over the course of my love life, I've gone through decades of trial and error of many ways to deal with the topic when it pops up. This report shows what has worked for me, and points up that it's even proving effective on college-age women IMMERSED in radical Feminism and other ideas.
Individuals are unpredictable as to how much of your influence they will retain and propagate over time. If you go in expecting one woman to change 100% and spread like wildfire, you're in for disappointment indeed. Much in the way of new ideas and information shared with another human will extinguish and die in the wild. With some individuals it sticks, and with a smaller number, it resonates and they propagate the ideas throughout their lives.
RedPillAnonymous 9y ago
"Feminism isn't the bogeyman that so many on this sub make it out to be."
Yes, yes it is.
We know feminists love alpha cock, all women do. Feminists don't deserve it. Here is a better idea, completely cut feminists off from alpha cock, because they are trash and don't deserve tingles. That will impact them harder than any pillow talk will. You just have a thing for a feminist girl, and are rationalizing it with your hamster.
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veggie_girl 9y ago
This is a solid strategy, unfortunately there isn't much to be done on a mass scale.
While feminism as an ideal is a plague on modern culture. The problem in our society isn't the female feminists. They are just a product of their environment. The real problem here is male feminists, their male supporters, mass consumerism, and those who financially support the feminist women -beta males that pedestalize the pussy, and corporations that lobby legislation while taking advantage of the mass female consumerism.
Sir_Shitlord_focker 9y ago
I disagree, we're growing everyday, a few months ago Facebook didn't have anything related to the manosphere, now I see a post almost daily from someone.
I can tell more and more men are waking up, the red pill, like any idea, is a seed and it will germinate.
Hitlers_Boss 9y ago
A part of me takes joy through shadenfreude of watching beta men wholeheartedly join feminists because on the inside they think it will make them popular. Watching some feminist woman shame a beta who is broken but still pedestalizes that shriveled bitching pussy is, how to say, absolutely reveling. You see that omega male hamster turn and turn through the abuse. Now for me, the second a man decides to be a feminist, he is beyond saving with trp or anything else. So i enjoy letting their pitiful soul rot. The omega men who push down their own gender for the sake of god knows what deserve the feminists.
But on the other hand, the feminists are affecting laws which affect me unjustly so I am actively against them.
In another sense, if alphas are olympus, then feminism is Hades and the underground and the male omega feminists are the souls being cast down there.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
In my early 20s Beta Bluepill days, I tried to supplicate to Feminists, who predictably dried up, friendzoned me, and sought out more Alpha cock before my eyes; only to be pumped and dumped, and become more hardcore anti-man for the experiences. Lose-lose.
This is how I found my way to the other side of this equation, only I'm dual-tracking enjoying an intellectually challenging partner, and leaving her with less of the man-hating aspects of Feminism. Win-win, for myself and everyone who deals with her and her affected friends and contacts thereafter.
Sir_Shitlord_focker 9y ago
I actually explained to a girl why we should have sex once.
SQQQ 9y ago
ya gotta b fucking crazy to touch the feminists. i think most men here prefer STD instead.
by definition, feminists r out there to bring down the patriarchy and that means throwing every single man under the bus. those bitches r gonna use the law against u, n ur fucked.
Realworld52 9y ago
I believe that feminists and RP are on the same page, they just don't know it like you correctly showed.
armenia4ever 9y ago
This is a dangerous game, but feminists in real life are very different from the online breed.
One thing that I'm always weary of is that potential false rape accusation considering the mental gymnastics on anything "sexual" that have been infused into their worldview.
I will point out that some of these feminists - sex positive ones - you meet in real life are far easier to hookup with.
Stay away from the unattractive fat ones as they are the most likely to play nasty if you do hookup with them because they know the guys pining for them aren't in abundance, therefore they are likely to take a pump and dump far harder and possibly plan retribution.
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MagneticJohnson 9y ago
I agree. arguing with feminists (or everyone else for that matter) is simply not the most effective way of going about things. it's just another red pill to swallow. but you most let go of your love for arguing.
defending yourself and attacking the other just solidifies the mental walls.
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TruckerJohn 9y ago
Awesome post, mate :) I like this approach... I do get heated in discussion or debate though, even to the point that most of my guy friends find me annoying. I gotta remember to try this here and there.
[deleted] 9y ago
Good God, being spoken to by someone using the Socratic method is annoying. I understand it is useful, but I've been attacked by spergs snidely asking me unanswerable rhetorical questions after taking Psychology 101 and thinking they are hot shit.
Asking a question or two to deflect criticism and change minds is fine, but don't be like that guy and go overboard. You become annoying, which is worse, socially, than being wrong or hateful. You become fedora'd. Hard.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
I understand your point, but developing and maintaining attraction is going to require fine attention to your audience's reception. Keep the pace and intensity of questions in line with the general flow of the conversation, and dial up/down as indicated well BEFORE coming off as pedantic or aspie and annoying her away. For what doth it profit a Red Pill Man, to attract and excite a Feminist by debating her topical bread and butter, but blow the whole thing on basic social skills?
MicroMinion 9y ago
Why are you even trying to solve feminism? There's way greater problems in this world. People are starving of hunger, politicians are completely corrupt and the world is on the world of WW3 with all the trouble in China, Russia and the Middle east...
And you're trying to change the views of some narcisstic shitlords who in the end won't even be able to make themselves happy?
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
I hate to come down a bit harsh on you Brother, but honestly I hate that sentiment.
We can't address the problems of Feminism because WWIII and China. We can't have a space program because there exist homeless. We can't enjoy dessert because starving children somewhere. Where does this nihilism end?
Look at it this way: There's probably nobody among the 100,000 subscribers who will become a Senator and influence China and Russia. However, every one of us dating men on TRP has the means, motive, and opportunity to counteract the worst aspects of Feminism. Right in our own bedrooms, and we even get to use our dicks as one of the tools! This isn't theory, I've been doing it with mixed successes for a long time.
I'm glad to hear everyone else's ideas and variants on how to address this juggernaut Feminism that affects us all personally.
isthatyourdaughter 9y ago
Keep in mind, as /u/NightwingTRP said, women tend to have a herd mentality. So whether it's a woman who goes by her group's consensus opinions, or a woman who has a good head on her shoulders and thinks for herself, every woman is susceptible to the kind of manufactured consensus through outrage fostered by a Womens Studies class. This is intentional, but not nessecarily sinister; if you want to market a good or service to women, you appeal to their collectivism and fad following instincts. That's just how it is.
I agree with you in part; some women are smart enough to change their minds on something they've been lathered up to mindlessly accept, if you can show them why it's bullshit. But I would argue that this is only possible with a woman who sees feminism as a feather in her cap, who doesn't take it dead seriously. Personally, I'm convinced a lot of it has to do with whether the girl had positive and strong male role models in her upbringing. Unless you catch her while she's young enough to rethink things, a woman who is becoming or has become a dedicated, died in the wool feminist? It's an "us vs them" ideology. You ain't reaching a girl like that, you're just helping her practice her debate skills. Probably shouldn't promote her, like ever. Better just to keep her as a part of your rotation.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
I'm not talking about trying to convert the hardest cases out there; somebody you're actually dating, not just debating. I'm idealistic, but not completely Quixotic. This presupposes a woman able to find a Red Pill Man attractive, and good/interesting enough for him to find desire beyond a simple pump-and-dump.
Hitlers_Boss 9y ago
Then it seems that the aim of your efforts is to easily breakdown feminazi arguments and give them tingles in the meantime? That sounds fun and fine indeed, but i wouldnt ever go out of my way to spend time doing this.
I think all rp men know that you should never even ltr a femiinist. Even a plate is risky with clinginess and possible false rape claims and other threats. But I also agree with OP that every feminist challenged in a positive way weakens the overall shitty feminist tidal wave ever so slightly, but this is definitely not the way to social change. If anything, OP has presented us a way to make feminist pump and dumps and plates a little more bearable to be around.
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[deleted] 9y ago
It's both. Men do it, too, but women are definitely more susceptible to it.
rlh1271 9y ago
Props to you amigo. I wouldn't have the patience for explaining anything like that. I simply leave them to trip on their own metaphorical dicks.
the_red_scimitar 9y ago
Honestly, I think the advice is misplaced, because you have a different situation to most TRP men running into militant feminists. Namely, you are in a romantic relationship with her, and thus she is going to provide you a more sympathetic ear.
I'd strongly suggest you pick a classmate of hers who is "on board" with all the stuff in that class, and try this, then report again.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
Actually, my whole point is not to judge and reject a self-proclaimed Feminist based on the most militant 10% or so. Most women I've dated were at most "Feminist Lite," and I've found that gentle persuasion plus good loving can cause a strong and durable shift away from radical Feminist beliefs. They will bring doubt to their far more radical friends, ones you wouldn't date and couldn't easily sway yourself by any method. Of course they won't directly challenge their radical friends' beliefs in an obvious social suicide mission. But the RP truths and feminism doubts you've shown her that she's always believed to the core, will slip past the defensive walls like a Trojan Horse and trickle out during boyfriend talk with the hardcore women.
You won't have the satisfaction of laying pipe one time and watching the woman's whole sorority renounce Feminism overnight. What I have ACTUALLY seen time and again is, I might successfully (in her mind) challenge 75%+ of her most ridiculous Feminist ideas in my GF's mind. She'll go from a me-too supporter of it to a skeptic, and she might influence her least Feminist friends close to the same 75%, on down to the most radical friends conceding 5% of her skeptical points.
The effects of this are chaotic and hard to predict, but tangible results include less commenting and reposting of feminist memes on social media. If you manage to prevent a group of 10 women from retweeting 10-50% of the most absurd Feminist memes and propaganda, in many cases the effect will peter out after a small number of exposures, but in some cases you could stop a chain that otherwise would have resulted in hundreds of thousands of retweets. Episodes like this compound over a period of years, and when many people are injecting Red Pill Truths into the Feminist hivemind at once from many individual sources, the cumulative effect can become incredibly powerful.
Social change and counterpropaganda isn't measured in individual successes; this is a very long game.
As for facing more radical classmates of hers face to face, I look forward to the opportunity; you are correct that this will be a whole different ballgame. I'll definitely include that if/when there's news enough for an update thread.
the_red_scimitar 9y ago
Sorry, but almost all of that was just saying "fuck them and they'll listen", which was my point. Report AFTER you have success with ones you aren't in a relationship. I think we have plenty of reports of "fucking the feminism out of her" by now.
[deleted] 9y ago
That's one read of it. In reality it's a spectrum, from the visceral man-haters to the flighty trend-followers. Larry Niven once said something like "You can't judge a movement by the worst of its followers" but the opposite is true as well - you can't judge a movement by the best of its followers. One person does not a movement make. You've discovered an attractive, pleasant, and rational feminist. That doesn't mean that feminism isn't bad. Feminism is bad for men for all the reasons you outlined and more.
The takeaway lesson here is that just because some dumb broad calls herself a "feminist" doesn't mean that she's a crazed man-hater. The best member of a movement isn't equal to the worst member of a movement. Viz: "[...] the context of the question, the results of other hypothetical poll questions like would you rob a bank or murder a rival if you wouldn't get caught." Ask some chick if she's a feminist, she nods her head and she giggles and says, "sure". She's probably not going to morph into Andrea Dworkin though unless she looks like Andrea Dworkin.
As always, consider the source. Consider that she's 22 years old - not much life experience. Consider that she's taking a feminist indoctrination class. Consider that adopting the label "feminist" gets her accolades from other feminists without any effort on her part - slacktivism. Consider that she's "very smart" and at least decent looking - she doesn't need feminism to get what she wants in life.
So I'd restate your conclusion a little - just because someone labels themselves as a thing doesn't mean that they really are representative of a thing.
newls 9y ago
The flighty trend-followers only identify as feminists because they know that doing the opposite would result in social ostracism. Women have an extremely strong herd mentality.
When my ex left me she seemed more worried what my mother would think of her than me. Nothing is more important to a woman than what other women think of her.
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MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
It's referencing the social function that slut-shaming once served through Marriage 1.0, where there was a strong stigma against single and especially divorced mothers. Feminism went so far in eliminating the stigma without addressing the reality of a society of single mother raised children, basically throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
By tailoring the questions to invoke her own experiences being raised by a single mother herself, and the lives of her siblings and peers, these few questions resonated more strongly with her than several classes before an entrenched Feminist teacher.
zikkitzo 9y ago
Did something similar with my LTR a while back during the Rolling Stone bullshit. My question to her was: 'if you were accused of a criminal act would she be comfortable being guilty until proven innocent?' She relented and said innocent until proven guilty should be applied in all criminal cases. She shot back 'Isn't the accuser then guilty of libel until proven innocent?'. I said 'No not exactly, but if you have physical evidence on(in) your person you had best get to a hospital so you can get your accuser off the streets. Additionally rape accusers are rarely punished unless its a repeated offense with a lot of publicity.'
(Quick break for RP theory: If you wrong a man, they will resolve to take you down, right the wrong, or will simply vow to never let it happen again. If you wrong a women they will retreat into self pity because they are so used to being saved by a strong male and it didn't happen.)
So I responded with 'Then instead of teaching young men not to rape (which they already know), teach young women they will can always seek help at a hospital in complete confidence. If they don't get the evidence, they have no case and the predator can strike again.' She has tried to hamster around the logic, but hasn't succeeded yet. I'll update if she does.
inb4 ltr feminist lol. Yes I know... she's pretty decent when she isn't in feminist mode and she doesn't go feminist mode often.
HakaseJ 9y ago
You are assuming a lot in presuming that feminists care about justice or fairness. All advocates want the same thing. The transfer of power away from their "conspiracy group" to their group. The methods and justifications they use to get power are inconsequential. The goal of feminism remains forever unchanged.
Prattler26 9y ago
Men are leaders, women are followers. Be a good leader and she will follow. No excuses. Feminism is just a giant shit test.
zxsteven 9y ago
I wish we had more posts like this, aside from the context, it's a chance to develop ourselves.
As for the context itself, I 100% agree, we should expand our horizons. Everyone talking shit about it = lazy. There is no reason you can't learn to deal with a new type of personality. Rather than run from a problem, face it head-on.
I will overcome this hurdle ~basically.
Redpillc0re 9y ago
I doubt the Socratic method works with women. The Socratic method uses the person's logic to come up to a logical conclusion. Men are generally more than satisfied when they find a solution that way. Women are just not. Women will doubt the laws of gravity because of feelz . It's only in very rare cases, of women who have repeatedly seen how delusional females can be , that they begin to doubt feminism.
ucfgavin 9y ago
I will say you've always got an advantage over a lot of people in the fact that you've got a chick that also thinks logically and makes sound decisions based on presented evidence. There are a lot of chicks that don't do that, and no matter what logic you actually bring to the table, they don't care.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 9y ago
Like I say, this won't work for every Feminist or Red Pill Man, but I've watched some women become like ambassadors of doubting Feminism, and influence their more hard-core peers in ways I couldn't myself, even if I had direct access and rapport with said peers, which I don't.
If you expect every woman to 100% renounce Feminism on the spot when she hears your views, you're going to be disappointed. Personally, I'm playing a long-long game at this point, which through time and patience has yielded impressive results despite the rampant skepticism here.
ucfgavin 9y ago
I don't even think renouncing feminism matters that much, its more just finding someone that is open minded to other types of thinking. It just so happens that most feminists aren't haha
HumanSockPuppet 9y ago
What you need to understand is this: egregious criticism and calm, sympathetic reasoning are BOTH necessary. They are different tools designed for different situations.
Egregious criticism is used in the public arena, where many voices are speaking across team allegiances and attempts to personalize the issue get lost in the noise. Opposing feminism in this arena should come in the form of ridicule, laughter, and outright ignoring their lunacy. You can't change the mind of a collective, so you simply reduce the significance of their statements with dismissal.
The Socratic Method is used in the personal or private arena, when the number of actors is small and there is a greater investment of reputation and mutual concern. You don't ridicule your girlfriend or your classmate's statements about feminism if your goal is to change their mind. You CAN change the mind of an individual, but you cannot approach it like it's a challenge. Rather, changing a person's mind is an investment. They must believe that you are on their side, or at least that you intend them no harm, in order for your words to gain a foothold in their mind.
fequ 9y ago
who da fuq are you?
not interested.
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kinggluejar 9y ago
I was in a relationship with a feminist for 4 and a half years. I remember mentioning it here on trp and some guy told me to dump her. I just laughed. Didn't even bother to respond. Some people take themselves too seriously.
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TheReasoner94 9y ago
In reference to number 2 what risks do women face exactly in marriage?
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