Xposted from the RedPillNonmonogamy subreddit, a place to discuss multiple relationships without LTR, slut, cuck, or cheat shaming.
DISCUSSION THREAD: How is your ability to form pair-bonds affected by having multiple lovers at once, past or present?
This is relevant to multiple lovers and LTR/marriage. If you're young, only spin plates, or are strongly monogamous/anti-cheating, you're not wrong but this probably isn't a thread of interest.
We're probably all familiar with the Red Pill Canon that the ability to pair-bond in the face of multiple lovers can become compromised in women but not so much in men due to differently evolved sexual strategies. According to this, a man's affair is much less likely to pose a threat to a long-term primary relationship or marriage than if the woman has an affair. To wit: Women riding the Cock Carousel may damage their ability to pair-bond even much later in life, whereas men riding the Vagina Velodrome are likely to retain it.
There do exist women who can love more than one man expansively rather than diminishingly; Heinlein fans know the type I'm talking about. However, they only exist as rare exceptions to the rule in my own observation.
There has been a lot of heated debate on the merits of this theory, but little actual evidence brought to the table. Let's put the debating aside for the moment and focus on discussing our personal experience with multiple lovers and bonding. This is a research and discovery thread, and it would also be interesting to hear from any lurking women with nonmonogamy experience.
My background: Grew up in an intact nuclear family, and I've always preferred LTRs- never had a one night stand in my life. My BP 20s were a mindfuck of doing everything I "should" do, only to have it work exactly against me; from severe early-onset oneitis to staying too long with toxic partners in the name of faithfulness.
Frustrated by wasted years of trying to make serial monogamy work, by 30 I came to nonmonogamy by hitting an anger phase (I thought of it as a "Fuck-it phase" before finding TRP) and started overlapping relationships. Branch swinging soon turned to branch crawling, needing all four limbs and a prehensile penis as a metaphor for the occasional peaks of overlapping plate activity.
Abundance and experience soon caused anger and frustration with women to give way to amused mastery and enjoyment. The next 20 years saw periods of monogamy, multiple partners, and MGTOW all of my choosing.
Through it all, I have always preferred LTRs, with a model of a main public girlfriend and part-time but long-term plates. Plates come in knowing they are in a shared position, and the negotiated terms of endearment vary widely with each individual; that said, even the lowest-tier plate has some manner of bond or sense of special connection otherwise I wouldn't be having sex with them.
How nonmonogamy enhanced pair bonding for me
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I've had primary relationships that held together for many additional years BECAUSE of nonmonogamy. Wherein vanilla sex was accepted until stepkids moved out, or a strong companionate love remained when medical issues affected her sex life.
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It takes the pressure off a main partner to be everything I need in a partner, which is a nearly impossible standard to reach even with great mutual compromise. This applies to both sexual and cultural/recreational variety.
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Potential resentment of shortcomings is nipped right in the bud. Time together is spent enjoying the positives of that particular partner.
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The feeling of Limerence, or strong infatuational attraction to a new lover has not diminished for me. Being able to wallow in it without neglecting a main partner is possible, but not necessarily simple even with practice. Becoming able to compartmentalize effectively when needed prevents crises, but setting up nonmonog relationships correctly in the first place reduces the required effort to nil most of the time.
- The abstract desire to pair-bond, possibly exclusively, has not diminished in me either. I'm willing and able to drop all plates just like that if a strong match comes along.
Challenges nonmonogamy has presented to pair-bonding for me
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Far and away the biggest, a much lower threshold of tolerance for games, manipulation attempts, and poor behavior. I'll pick the plates right back up again, or just walk without remorse. Part of it is because of Abundance Mentality, but I attribute a majority of it to the general cynicism of age and experience.
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Divided time. Whereas my ability to love an individual is not diminished by additional lovers, my schedule is a zero-sum game. Even with careful prioritizing and time management, it's an ongoing challenge to parse out attention fairly by my own standards.
- Maintaining ability to pair-bond means never completely extinguishing the built-in human sense of loss at departure; I don't recommend elimination, but management. Experience and abundance has mostly removed anxiety and anguish from breakups, but I still feel a wistful sense of "wish I could keep ALL the good ones!"
Bottom line: Having multiple lovers for over 2 decades has NOT eliminated my desire or ability to form strong, ongoing pair-bonds, though it has certainly tempered and fine tuned the ways I form, manage, and ultimately end them. Edit: Format
TeflonDon3000 8y ago
How do you introduce the idea of non-monogamy to a serial monogamist?
Very interesting post on something I've been working on. While I have two plates I consider "girlfriend" level, I had one plate that was just a FB. She made a push for monogamous commitment. I was honest and upfront about my non-monogamous lifestyle and told her I wasn't willing to compromise on it. The plate broke.
I lost her, unfortunate but not devastating. But to prevent future situations from repeating this pattern, what's your advice?
How do I massage the non-monogamous perspective?
Note: This is strictly a question for non-monogamists with experience in multiple relationships. Do not tell me to lie, I can't and won't. And do not tell me to just let her walk, because I always do.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
There are two schools of thought. Some consider plates to be "auditioning" for LTR status; others claim that FBs and plates are by nature not LTR material at all. I agree that the latter is usually true of women who knowingly and specifically signed up for FB or plate status. The few times I've tried this with a plate, it failed in a matter of days with only one exception. The quality outliers in this area are women who don't want multiple partners but can't fully commit due to an important obligation like a full class load, caregiver for a dying elderly parent, where their whole life really does change. The rest, well let's just say, they befit the term, "There's a reason she's still single."
The "auditioning" model is the only approach most quality women have a chance of filtering through, and there is an initial period of gaining mutual buy-in during the courting dance of negotiating the man's commitment in exchange for her sex. There is an ethical sweet spot of delayed disclosure and limited hangout for a reasonable period during the initial courtship, but not so long it's arguably a dick move for stringing her along necessitates lying in response to direct questions.
You're correct that good messaging is required to "sell" the idea of nonmonogamy to those who aren't currently considering it. Most people have no idea of the variety of nonmonogamous relationships available to them and practiced all around. People are either "faithful" or "cheaters" in a lot of worldviews; this is much of what you'll find yourself battling initially with most people. Here's my take on nuanced yet ethical selling of the concept.
There is no need to outright lie, but choosing words carefully and presenting the concept in a gradual and structured way is necessary. Manipulative? As fuck, but love is N-dimensional chess and open-source for both genders; bring mental checkers skills to this game at your own peril.
Consider what each of you DO mutually want, and sell THAT, and don't introduce any ideas that would dissuade her. Learn the "Foot in the door" or "Get them saying yes" sales techniques to get agreement on elements of your relationship plans. Use fogging (nominally agreeing with and deflecting objections so they're like punching into fog) to postpone a final determination on difficult points until your position is more fully understood. For example, if I genuinely wanted someone on a long-term part-time basis I'd recommend:
Instead of "I don't want to be exclusive with you," offer, "I want to be with you, not a one-night stand or anything, but for the long-term."
Agree and amplify the points you want. "Are we in a relationship?" I was hoping you'd ask; I really do like you and we should keep seeing each other!
Don't lie but redirect to mutual interest. "Are we exclusive?" I haven't been wanting to commit to anyone because [legit reason;] but you're better than average/special/appropriate flattery and I want to be together with you.
Check out the MoreThanTwo site, starting with this article.
Nonmonogamous relationships are best set up correctly from the start; the Black Dragon blog has a lot of great information on the topic as well.
always-be-closing 8y ago
The plural of anecdote isn't data.
Nota Bene: No one should legally marry until the laws change, almost all should forgoe LTRs until they've had their fill of plates, and the problems of commitment are entirely those of women to fix.
But young married virgins have more stable marriages, when you look at just that factor in a vacuum.
And if you're asking does sex affect men and women differently, absolutely.
If you want, I'll link you to literature later and you can read up on how hymen penetration pain encourages pair bonding, how sex (and even semen in a woman's womb) makes them pair bond, and how multiple partners hurt their ability to form relationships in a way that isn't true for men, whose gamete refractory period is way shorter and regenerative as opposed to once a month release of lifetime finite supply.
Instead of reading a bunch of pub med and Nature and pnas publications, though, you could realize trying to find a virgin for a pair bonding long term exclusive relationship is a reality that's been murdered since the pill and women being shoved into the workforce.
In a sense, the virginity of a young woman is pretty much coincidental to other factors (and I do mean co-incident, the incidence of virginity in a woman who isn't going to divorce rape you being related to other important factors), like her relationship with her father, her IQ, her cultural background, the stability of her parents' marriage, etc.
Furthermore, given that the overwhelming majority of girls will have had one or two sexual partners by the end of high school, and certainly the end of big kid high school, most men from now until an eternity will not have the control and security, loyalty and devotion their grandfathers, great grandfathers and stronger male ancestors before who never suckled iced coffees with syrup and asked women about feelings ever had to forgoe.
But, the upside is plates. Plates from here to China and back.
Second prize, frankly, is not that bad, and given the sheer numbers of betas that feminism has created (or is it that beta men allowed feminism to rise? Food for thought), being relatively alpha and crushing Great Grandpappy's poon high score isn't too hard.
The bottom line, once again: men and women are different, have different responsibilities and outcomes for different roles and failures in those roles.
Men, if we put effort in, still win when women refuse to be gatekeepers of sex - because winners hold the gate of commitment to any particular one.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
Good point; this is praxeology rather than science, so I should have said anecdote rather than data. The idea has been frequently mentioned as fact here, so I was hoping to collect personal experiences to support it and discover the parameters. Ideas that are thoroughly discussed as opposed to just repeated can't be dismissed as a circle jerk.
[deleted] 8y ago
I'd be interested in reading those studies if you don't mind linking them.
always-be-closing 8y ago
Have fun doing a shit ton of reading.
(No, really; have fun reading the studies and looking at their implications in the lens of TRP ideology)
https://archive.is/yIsfx
You can just go to the URL directly (can't link it here) and navigate to the links directly, but I'm going to toot my own horn and say you should read it all.
[deleted] 8y ago
Thanks bruh! Fun will be had
[deleted]
[deleted] 8y ago
Been with the same girl since she was 16 and I was 19 was her first, can confirm I don't deal with half the bullshit you lot do. Unicorns are real, but if you're past 21 forget about it. However, the exception does not make the rule.
DRMMR76 8y ago
The past prevalence of virgins wasn't what made them better wives and less likely to divorce rape, it was another byproduct of the real cause: a culture and society in which every part was committed to functional families, traditional values, and fidelity. They weren't better wives because they were virgins. They were better wives and virgins because their parents, grandparents, clergy, and neighborhoods all valued women being virgins at marriage and good wives. This sort of thing used to be taught to young girls by women. It was the mother and the grandmother who were responsible for teaching their daughters how to be good girls, better women, and great wives. They knew the health of their entire family line depended on it. A wife who fucked around not only demeaned herself in the eyes of society, but it also cast shame on her husband, her brothers, her parents, their parents, etc.
always-be-closing 8y ago
Same reason I would argue the men of the past were in shape, and largely employed in addition to being far more likely to be married. It's a hand in hand, not a this then that, type arrangement.
No one has ever found working in fields more fun than relaxing and enjoying free time. (I mean, maybe some of Teuton extraction)
But letting down your wife? Your children? Your aging parents?
Unacceptable. Entirely unacceptable.
It is still like this in so many cultures: What is talked about by us in the morally depraved West as gender performance or whatnot, is fulfilling human obligations and the primacy of others before the self as the ultimate action of a strong individual, whether male or female.
It is the mindset which resolves the dialectical tension between individual desire and collective interest and which built civilization after civilization across the world.
[deleted]
TRPShill 8y ago
Exactly. Good luck finding a virgin. BUT a girl with a low partner count to whom you are Chad is a close second. She is also never wondering in the back of her head, is this the best I can do? with a couple beta partners before you she knows you are the shit.
-Anteros- Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
Trigger Warning: This is going to be negative, put on your big boy pants, faggot.
For fucks sake. Can anyone just slap "RedPill" in front of a term and automatically get some credibility now? Disclaimer: before we had LTR section I made the (now defunct) RedPillRelationships subreddit to discuss LTRs/Marriages. Cheating is beta behavior and cucks are no better than vomit. Let alone the use of the word "shaming". Thank god this garbage does not have a place in our subreddit. Now, fucking multiple women while being in a relationship, there is something useful. Only an idiot would go in looking for some sort of parity.
If any of you ever wonder what it looks like when SJWs/feminists infiltrate a community here is what it looks like:
Disguise statements as questions: For example: OP makes a big to-do about this being a "Discussion thread" for "PERSONAL experiences" Then injects supporting personal experiences as statements. Stating questions with self serving answers is innocuous but a very effective persuasion technique.
Focus on edge cases within the cultural spectrum: "There do exist women who can love more than one man expansively rather than diminishingly"
Remove gendering from conclusions: "It takes the pressure off a main partner to be everything I need in a partner"
Make up new terms for bullshit based on equality: "Vagina Velodrome"
There are probably more examples in this post, outside of some tangential knowledge but I don't have the time for this poisoned candy.
[deleted] 8y ago
I laughed way too hard at this. Other than that insightful points made on the libshit invasion tactics.
[deleted] 8y ago
Post more, your comments are always insightful.
redpillschool Admin 8y ago
Very good points. I'll add:
A big portion of SJW infiltration is about normalization of new/different ideas and concepts in order to subtly steer conversation. Some obvious examples:
Can we tone down the anger? Too many angry people. Surely we would be okay if we got rid of some of the anger!
And from your example:
This is a very clever form of infiltration because what it does is first make you accept the premise (well, yes, some women have done xyz), and then make you modify your tone to make exceptions in your speech:
Instead of "All women will xyz" they want you to say:
"Some women, and some men as well, might do xyz, but it's important to note that both genders do it and it's not uniquely feminine."
That's a race to the bottom, attempting to correct all speech politically based on a few outliers, essentially lowering the bandwidth and effectiveness of our communication.
But our mod team is good, we won't have it.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
I understand and appreciate the hyper-vigilance needed to keep actual SJW invaders at bay for the good of this sub. In this case, a serious inquiry has been misunderstood.
Do you have any personal perspective on this topic that you would add to the body of RP praxeology, RPS?
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
The central idea (pair bonding affected differently in men vs women with multiple partners) is often mentioned as fact here, but I've never seen it directly discussed or supported by personal experience. I offered my own life experience as an example supporting the idea.
Hmmmm.
And the next sentence after that acknowledges that these are edge cases in my own experience.
The sentence references my own numerous main partners over 20 years.
I made it up on the spot because the alliteration mirrors the term CC. The intent was humor, interesting that you took it as some unwelcome effort at equality.
So you responded at great length as though this was a SJW invasion, but ignored the topic when you have personal experience which supports the premise in question? Way to go, Senator McCarthy.
-Anteros- Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
I'm not calling you a Witch and advocating burning you at the stake, I am saying you are doing Witch things that should be burned at the stake.
The idea is still being introduced for some reason, along with the advertisement about "a place to discuss multiple relationships without LTR, slut, cuck, or cheat shaming". Subtle Witch behavior.
In my view, your experience is limited. According to your post you said: "[I have] Never had a one night stand in my life." I would not support anyone who has not slept with at least 25 women gets into a long term relationship, this is likely to include one night stands.
This is still removing the gendering. Also, timeframe is near useless for this analysis. All that matters is what you did with it.
Drawing these parallels is still Witch behavior, even if the intent was humor.
Poisoned candy is still candy. Stop handing it out. Only a Witch would do that. Communists are probably assholes too.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
That sub spun off precisely because of the way this discussion skidded off topic. It's usually young members choking on the term LTR or dismissing any situation where a female has more than one partner as "LOL cuck3d". I didn't expect it from a seasoned member with multiple partner/LTR experience. If you could take a breath and share your own perspective on the topic, it would be valuable.
I agree that inexperienced men are usually better off not starting on a LTR --> marriage track. My own experience exceeds 25 partners, though unconventionally in parallel relationships, so I see how you may have gotten that impression.
You're reading something into this that I did not intend. Try reading it as my main partners instead of a main partner. I'll take care not to write in a manner that could be perceived as gender-neutralizing in the future, but damn, dude.
Shoot, you're on to me. Dons pointy black hat and flies away /s edit: a word
battleof_lissa 8y ago
Women who prefer monogamy/LTR always branch swing. It's the nature. Some cheat some don't but 100% branch swing then return in some shape or form. They need to, to feel better about letting go, with no concern of the male's plight.
While some men enjoy watching the unicorn enjoy the gifted taste of their pasture, she's calculating every tiny seed to ensure it's greener on this side.
Edit to add: No worthy woman is truly single. A woman sans a man (single) has a Chad.
riverraider69 8y ago
Had an interesting discussion about that over the purple subreddit. Bullet points:
no documented evidence about pair bonding per se being affected by many STR
STRs are documented in multiple studies to be associated with depression in women. CC is not good for you, go figure
in personal experience, I am just as likely to fall in love and be stupid at 35 as I was at 15
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
Thanks for your useful input on the topic. I wondered whether I should post here or in PPD, but I don't hang out at PPD much so I took my chances on the main TRP sub.
[deleted] 8y ago
The high brow part of me loves the Spanish tapas experience. The low brow part of me loves the Chinese all you can eat buffet experience. In other words, I am pair-bonding with the experience and not a particular dish.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
A simple and elegant metaphor, thanks.
[deleted] 8y ago
Thx. Fwiw, I am a limerence junkie and I appreciate you using the concept here. Nothing feels better. But it will drown you every single time.
aiguo888 8y ago
I live in China, where most girls don't sleep around much and the local girls I know who were unable to lock down high status white guys are all broken beyond repair, jumping from alpha fucks to beta bucks and back and seem to be totally unable to bond.