I don't really know what flair to add to this post, or where does it land, but I guess culture would be the best flair for this.
I was having a conversation with my father the other day, telling him how I stopped believing in love and romance, thinking that it is built on nothing but shared benefits and common beliefs and nothing else. Then I went on to saying the only people I'd think I have an idealized companionship with are my best buddies since kindergarten.
He then shoved a huge red pill in my throat telling me that love and friendship are identical, and told me about how he and his childhood friends grew distant after receiving a promotion at work while he decided to remain in place because he'd have a more malleable schedule, and grew closer to another batch of his friends.
The thing is, a friendship, no matter how long and how strong it is, will fade away once there is no longer anything to benifit from it, be it built on entertainment, cultural enrichment, sport, entrepreneurship and business, religion or whatever.
People say that a friendship that can last over seven years is a friendship that lasts forever. this is far from the truth.
People change with time, so will their attitude. They may find the red pill, the blue pill, drugs, God, Buddha, Odin. They may win the lottery and/or amass a huge sum of money, or whatever. If their newly reached state and newly found belief is challenged by some of their connections made, they'll gladly walk away from it.
We say:
AFC are like crabs trapped in a bucket, when one tries to escape, other AFC will try to bring it back inside the bucket.
Friendship is kind of like that.
That being said, how can friendship be any different from "Love"?
They belong to the same genre, Mythology and Fantasy.
WoodleyWarrior85 6y ago
I'm not sure most men even know how to be friends these days. Especially after graduating, guys get busy with careers and girlfriends and daily routines, and start to neglect the importance of building their tribe.
By "tribe," I mean a network of high-value men that enjoy worthwhile activities together. Pick-up basketball, golf, building businesses, taking cool trips, etc.
This kind of social capital - like other forms of capital - abides by the Pareto principle. Alpha guys can put together a foursome for a round of golf the night before. The majority, on the other hand, give up on socializing after graduating from school.
It is what it is.
UncleChido 6y ago
One of the truest words ever spoken on this sub.
As I get older, I see the manifestation of this saying more often - “there’s no permanent friend or permanent enemy, there’s only a common interest”.
Nobody loves you except your family. Your bros or hoes promise to take a bullet for you? Sorry to break your heart mate. It’s all bogey talk.
It’s a cold world. Your best friend should be a steel bar (lift it). Read. Meditate. Develop yourself. In the end, your duty is to watch out for yourself and your family.
chazthundergut 6y ago
You've made the mistake of assuming that just because women are fickle and nothing lasts forever that love is a myth
And just because friends come and go and friendships wax and wane over time that friendship is a myth
Let me explain something to you, and the other youngsters who have recently had their childhood illusions destroyed: nothing lasts forever
And that is 100% okay.
That doesn't make it any less real or meaningful to us in our lives. In fact just the opposite.
Love and friendship are not myths and fantasy; they are the most real and meaningful experiences we have as humans.
Accept that no woman will love you unconditionally for who you are. Accept her fickle and hypergamous nature. And love women anyways.
Accept that no friendship will last forever. Accept that everyone will disappoint you, no one will fully live up to your expectations, and every frienship has it's time and its end. And love friends anyways.
Good luck
SmoteySmote 6y ago
You can know love exists because a pet, dogs most commonly but cats and other pets as well, will risk its life to save an owner/family/tribe/pack member out of sheer love. They will run into a house on fire and pull you out or alert you to danger, they often die doing it. Tell me love is fantasy. Will a family member, neighbor, friend save your life? That is love. Love is being willing to give your life for someone else (whether this is a reasonable or sane choice I am not debating here).
Love created the internet. The love to want to share. The love of humanity with all their flaws. The love for a chance to evolve and improve and advance for a greater good. There is an altruism when you can share freely your mind to benefit humanity without need for materialistic or ego driven gain.
Love of freedom won Americans their freedom, they risked life, limb, family and wealth for it. They tried to protect future generations from having inhibited freedoms. They loved people that hadn't been born for hundreds of years. And all the wars, of anyone that ever lived, has been for love of home, family and property on one side or the other.
It's the small minded people full of hate and fear that will turn great things to evil means. That is another proof of love; it has a counter force. Hatred, malice, sadism, greed, narcissism, bigotry, violence, megalomania all types of the same anti-love. The type of force that doesn't understand humor is the best sugar to take with the medicine of reality sometimes, and it still will sting.
And if you aren't aware, families matter most, usually, to people with children (or at least they say they do - it's for the childrens). So when the people you know, including yourself, have children and a mortgage and full time job, they change tremendously. Love is not friendship. Love is getting more intimate with someone than you ever have before. Love is what makes monkeys and humans mentally deficient if they don't have a mother hold them in the first, hours, days, weeks, months.
Love is trust too. If your family and friends don't find you trustworthy you probably wont feel love(d).
There is platonic love, like a master craftsman might love their apprentice, mentor a protege, student to teacher, neighbor to neighbor, teammates, owner to pet. You want to engage, protect, help and share affection without attraction or sexual relations.
Love of art, in any form, and music. If you have never felt love of a song, where it hit you viscerally, then I just feel wish you can and do someday. Love of life and a sunset and mountain air or country hay or the sea. So many better ways to life life choosing to love things, love good things, love many things, love them good, than hating and saying it's not possible when the only limits are those you set on yourself.
Yes love can get twisted, and love can suck because it hurts, and it is how you can get the most damaged, but there are also no greater (sober) highs than love, of anything. Realize the higher you highs, usually the lower the lows. Try to find someone that matches that, the tempo of life you have set for yourself, the interests you have and share. I think you can find the love you are looking for.
AnjaJutta 6y ago
Do not expect anything from anyone, but always be ready to give and receive.
nehardElhidine 6y ago
This is the saddest thing to accept but also the realest fact.
Everything moves and changes, so do you, maybe for a lot of people in our lives, we ourselves are “at fault” for growing distant. It is how it is.
rpsheepdog 6y ago
This is why the whole best friend wife/girlfriend narrative is such garbage to be telling people. You don't want to fuck your friends, you want to be friends with them. If you chose to be in an LTR it's important to be able to spend time with that person on a regular basis, but the primary goal is sexual and not a friendship goal.
I've always felt that people/friends fill a certain role in my life. I have some friends that are drinkning/going out friends, some that are lifting friends, some are common experience friends. They are basically like plates, if something happens and they fall off, well it sucks, but there are always new people to meet.
[deleted]
oneorigin 6y ago
Friendship = relationships for profit + oxytocin. Just like most LTRs.
AlfredKinsey 6y ago
I read this as oxycontin and felt like you were overgeneralizing.
Rommel0502 6y ago
Relationships are all the same - they exist as long as market forces allow them to exist. As soon as better options are available for any investment you make - be it money, time, status, whatever, then those options are typically exercised.
Trust me, this RP stuff, in fact ALL human interactions, are much easier understood when you view them in a market based context. Do that, and the answers become beyond obvious.
Demiurge_Decline 6y ago
Market based. Haven't thought of it that way until now. Makes too much sense.
MrTrizzles 6y ago
I’m sorry, but how does your inability to sustain normal healthy friendships help me get laid?
And as an adult man, if you’re not adding another life-long friend every 10 years or so then you’re doing it wrong.
Jesus fucking Christ what has this sub come to. Stop trying to normalize your condition.
Cutch22 6y ago
Agreed. Of course, we all know that friendships may not work out. That's obvious to anyone that has lived on this earth longer than 20 years. I have some life-long male friends that I consider closer than my own family. Sure, things might not work out with them, but if you're a man with any decent social skills and not a sociopath, like how could you not have at least a few good friends or find some new ones?
This isn't some "red pill", it's common sense. You will have some life-long friends. You will also likely lose a few friends. I still say romances are not forever, but friendships can be life-long.
ex_addict_bro 6y ago
u/abdada wrote that friendship is usually not friendship but two or more addicts doing their fix together, be it alcohol, TV, vidya...
Tldr everything’s transactional. I’m happy for the people I cooperate with - if they have any hobbies or any personality. First there’s a common ground for cooperation. Then we can have a little chit chat here and there.
[deleted] 6y ago
Truth bomb. Or hamstering for not having any lasting friendships... I had friends that i played sports with, studied together, fooling around together, drinked together, smoked weed together, but no best friend that could always help me when i was in bad places. This is normal right?
ex_addict_bro 6y ago
Or both.
When I had that drinking problem of mine, it is obvious that some (most?) of the social network had to go.
But, but, but... how about guys that I met at the therapy? Making friends with sobering up people was encouraged. I did. After some time I realised, that even if we seem to have the single goal, we actually aren't that similar. After some time I realised that the guy who was the closest to me had a really hard codependency problem.
So for me that thing u/abdada wrote is both truth bomb and some hamstering for the past.
Today?
Today I fucking hate people who are in the bad places. I despise them, I hate them, I don't want to be any close to them. I want to be far fucking away in some better place. Fuck bad places and fuck people in them.
People probably are going to downvote this comment into oblivion again. I couldn't care less. I feel this stance of mine is actually justified because of what I did in the past, as a codependent. All the people in bad places, I was there for them. What did I got? Nothing. What did I lost? If you add me being cpt Save-a-hoe and divorcing, I lost helluva lot of time and money and nerves.
So, tl;dr: fuck people in bad places, fuck BPDs, fuck suicidals. They go absolutely NO love from me.
[deleted] 6y ago
I totally understand u. Depression is a bad bad disease. The suferer can only be cured by himself or pills. No one else can save them. It's a bottomless pit of despair.
[deleted]
swipedstripes 6y ago
Couldn't agree more, I have a couple of friends that will go through fire for me, but that's forged by jail, fighting and lots of other "red pill" and manly behavior. In the end, all the blue pill cowards stabbed me in the back.
But that was always kinda clear for me, the hardest lesson I've had to learn was to not do shit for people that don't do shit for you.
carrotriver 6y ago
Can relate. BP friends have been backstabbers, RP friends live by an honor code and have had my back in hard times
JinxsLover 6y ago
This resonates with me a lot. I made some mistakes last year and ended up in jail for a few months. The only person to write to me or visit that wasn't a family member was my ex. Some girl I knew for two months and she cared more about when I got locked up then my bros I spent a decade kicking with. It's always bullshit when we talk now and it was an eye opener. Can't Imagine my best friend getting locked up and not trying to see how he is. The only reason I talk to one is when we play video games other then that he doesn't care which is scary since we hung out for 15 years
swipedstripes 6y ago
Tells you enough right there, use it as "free signs" to see who to trust and who to invest into.
JinxsLover 6y ago
Yeah it's been rough trying to rebuild after I lost a lot of friends
[deleted] 6y ago
[deleted]
JinxsLover 6y ago
Sure her previous bf was abusive her mom called her a while and a slut when we went our to the movies and a bunch of other horrible things. Pretty sure I was the only person to give her positive compliments and reinforcement in a long time. She wrote to me a lot in jail and visited twice a week. Really meant a ton to me even though it's over now she meant more then most friends I knew for years
[deleted]
JinxsLover 6y ago
I think they will make better partners if you want to make them your number one priority. I had no problem doing that with her because a lot of people turned on me when I started trying to improve myself like hitting up the gym reading tons of improvement stuff and going out a lot. So me and her spent most days together. I agree with you on dependency being a issue. It wasn't with her cause she knew when I wanted time to write or read or hit the gym she would just say call me when you are free again . Really was the best girl I could find kick myself every day for fucking that up.
adam-l Endorsed Contributor 6y ago
This.
Friendship, or as a famed psychologist prefers to put it, buddyship, is forged in common struggle. Most men, at least in the West, don't do any struggle at all - let alone a common one. As many have commented, it is quite unlikely to find a buddy from "hobbies". You need to care about smthg, and get deeply involved - and find other common minded people. Again, most people today don't really care about anything, they just live their life in a haze.
[deleted] 6y ago
Could you give us examples of the struggles you are referring to? I was thinking of sharing depression, addiction, the strive at the gym, school work?
[deleted] 6y ago
Sharing a struggle can be like being on a sports team with your team mates.. you all share the struggle to win. Or with a business partner,youre sharing the struggle to compete in the market and make more money together.
This is why men miss the military so much. They miss the struggle they had with their brothers.. they miss knowing that the guy to their left and right were capable of anything and they could really trust them. The comraderie. Or in a sales company,the struggle of hitting sales quotas. Team with your buddy,work on that quota together.
firezenukes 6y ago
War, shared loss, etc. My mom and her six brothers and sisters learned to lean on each other in a house with a binge alcoholic father and depressed mother who eventually committed suicide while they were all still kids. They get along better than any other group of siblings I know except for the oldest brother, who was 17 when his mom killed herself, and he ran away and still hasn't connected with his siblings the same as they did with eachother. The older kids got jobs and helped bring food home, and the younger ones kept the house together, while their dad locked himself up in his room and only came out to walk to the liquor store or sober up for a couple weeks at a time.
adam-l Endorsed Contributor 6y ago
I've personally been involved in activist politics. Made a few friends I can trust with my life. Facing adversarities together, having common responsibility, being tested together, these kinds of things forge a friendship.
School, University etc should be a setting where most people can make real friends. Provides some level of challenge and community. It is externally organized, though, so not much space for common responsibility. Unless you get involved in some serious, politically minded, committee or fraternity or smthg.
[deleted] 6y ago
Never share depression. Trust me. Ive been depressed since i was a kid and I actively avoid depressed toxic people. Its one of the laws of power, they will only hold you down. Find those people that are winning and super happy and lucky and put a smile on your face. Be around those people. Their happiness and luck will rub off on you. Generally,make friends with the people that have the opposite of your bad qualities.
Prone to loneliness? Make friends with people who are always with other people.
Prone to sadness or depression? Make good friends with the happiest person you know.
Dont forget to give to these people. Invest your time and effort into them and they will pay it back. Listen to them. Be very interested in everything they have to say. Remember little things about them that would make them well up with tears if you brought it up. Care for them. And your life will be so much better in return.
[deleted] 6y ago
But those people or often depressed. I've seen those exact people telling me how fucking bleak and hard life is and they only want other people happy and it's really hard to pretend that they're happy all the time. And i'm the same, almost all the time i'm happy as fuck and hyped, but then i have periods i just wanna be dead already...
[deleted] 6y ago
This message hits home on another level, woah. I have been struggling with loneliness, its summer holidays here and I have been forced to step out of my comfort zone to avoid it. I have in the past just filled it with video games and porn. Porn is dangerous everyone, I am 18 now and have been addicted to it since 11, I have always watched videos where the female instructs you in how to masturbate. I think all these years it filled that gap but I recently found out I was addicted as f*ck. I often think about the friendships and family connections I could have had, its painful. Anyone reading this please stay away from it, it will ruin your life, especially if you are young.
llkkzz 6y ago
i am 25 and just now getting out of the porn crap. good on you for getting out early
[deleted] 6y ago
It is by no means too late brother. Hang in there.
[deleted]
lostbuthopefull 6y ago
It's never too late to change my man. You're aware of your problems, now it's a matter of finding out how you'll leave them in the past and build a new self.
sdrawkcab_kaeps_i 6y ago
Don’t worry mate. You can beat porn. I was just like you. I got addicted at a super early age and just kept doing it. But now I’m free from PMO and life is so much better! Every day is a struggle to avoid the urge to PMO, but take it one step at a time. I know this sub doesn’t really like it, but try NoFap - it really does work, just takes a shit tonne of discipline.
[deleted] 6y ago
Yeah I am totally into the nofap and semen retention stuff, its actually quite fascinating. I have recently just read this
https://selfdefinition.org/celibacy/quotes/napoleon-hill-sex-transmutation-part-1.htm
https://selfdefinition.org/celibacy/quotes/napoleon-hill-sex-transmutation-part-2.htm
Check it out even though you may not totally agree, its eye opening at the very least.
Skywave28 6y ago
It's all about the transfer of information, be it every which way
[deleted]
drty_pr 6y ago
If you view friendships and love in the same category, you're an idiot.
Love is built out of desire, romance, achieving a common goal, trust and sacrifice for one another.
Friendship is built out of companionship. Nothing more.
They are completely mutually exclusive. The problem arises when people start putting expectations on their friendships that you would expect from a spouse. Friends will be in your life to level you choose to have them in, but a lover is either in it or not. If you go into life expecting the qualities of a lover from your friends, your in for disappointment.
WhirlingDeath 6y ago
BZZZT.
No one cares about anyone but themselves.
Cycloptichorn 6y ago
Now this is some sad shit to read
[deleted]
drty_pr 6y ago
BZZZT.
No one cares about anyone more than themselves
[deleted]
Jetirk 6y ago
Friendships are the result of comfort and convenience. I've known this since I finished middle school.
JinxsLover 6y ago
Sigh learned this the hard way last year needed a place to stay and get away from my house a few days and my closest guy who had been through everything with me wouldnt take my calls and called me crazy saying I needed pills. Guess 20 years of friendship aldodnt mean anything to him. Can't even count the number of nights I took him in when he needed a place to crash.
[deleted] 6y ago
Jesus. That sounds absolutely terrible. As an Aspie, I've always been the one contributing, offering Value while never even getting a penny in return. So I never allowed people like your said friend to live at my place. I didn't explicitly say "No, you can't live with me," since I was never explicitly the ruthless, cunning, dominant person in the so-called "friendship" but evaded it. I deduced and figured- "hey, I pay the bill, I am the one helping him, and I don't even enjoy the meetings since there aren't any shared interests. So why be used like that when I have nothing to gain?" and that's how I saved myself from being leeched off of and used even more.
I also figured, the guy who I would supposedly be helping in terms of resources would simply not be around for me when the time to repay it came...
That's how most so-called "friendships" have been for me anyway.
JinxsLover 6y ago
Drugs and women change a lot of people even if it's just weed and booze. I also got in legal trouble so can't smoke or drink anyway so why would he want to be around me apparently
[deleted] 6y ago
This is completely backwards. The closest bonds of friendship are formed as a result of hardship and necessity.
Jetirk 6y ago
Hardship and necessity create strong comfort and convenience.
[deleted]
prankster999 6y ago
Aristotle said that friendship is based on utility. Go figure...
RPInjectionToTheVein 6y ago
He classified three types of friendship. One based on pleasure one based off of mutual gain and the final which could only occur between two more or less equals--friendship based off of virtue where the main idea is the utility and benefit of the other party. Needless to say he stated that the third type can't occur between men and women lol.
hemlock35 6y ago
Yeah but Aristotle was a little sexist. I’m a philosophy major and Aristotle has perhaps the greatest contributions to philosophy and scientific epistemology, but he had a sexist layer that wasn’t so hidden. He only thought men could achieve his good life and saw women as an inferior species.
afkb39sdfb 6y ago
Between the Internet and scholarly books from the library you can learn philosophy for free.
Major in something that will put food on the table, a nice roof over your head, and a decent car in your garage.
[deleted]
[deleted] 6y ago
Virtually every man that ever lived before about 1950 would be considered "sexist" by today's standards. Could it possibly be that they knew what they were talking about and men today are actually the clueless ones?
[deleted] 6y ago
Welcome to the red pill. You can leave at any time.
hemlock35 6y ago
The red pill, where it’s subscribers claim to have objective truth but refuse to engage with a minor objection/correction in a civil way. I didn’t even disagree with the OPs points as a whole.
dulkemaru51 6y ago
Social science is not physics, yet. RP theory works. One day, it will be viable to point to a certain pattern of neurons firing in the brain to perfectly predict what TRP already, by collective observation, claims to be objective truth... unless female nature up to this point has merely been a glitch in the universal syntax.
Who was uncivil???
majaka1234 6y ago
Fair point - a lot of the ideas you'll find here are akin to philosophy anyway; regardless of the mainstream attempt to paint every man posting on here as a woman hater.
Just like some philosophers were full of shit, others have nuggets of gold that are absolutely worth clinging onto and learning from.
However, you'll find men at various stages of personal growth and particularly the anger and bitterness stages can shine through into shutting down discourse that goes against them.
Personally i think you are being down voted because most of what you would classify as "sexist" is likely explained on the sidebar.
In this particular context the concept is that dogs are loyal companions whereas women are fickle and their love for you can change in an instant (the lightswitch effect) and this has been extended to cover all relationship types in this particular post.
Likely every man reading this has personal experience with this so to say it isn't true is almost akin to saying the sky is green.
This is essentially a self evident truth that is obvious to anyone who has been through a break up or spent any significant time around women so to say it's sexist to apply it to women is laughable at best.
It's a generalisation, but so is philosophy and sociology, yet that doesn't mean that there isn't value or truth to be found in the observation.
You won't find anyone to sugar coat things for you here, however... Which is why you're being told you can leave if it isn't attractively packaged for your palate.
Again, "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" and the mode of delivery makes no difference to the value of the point, assuming it's not a terrible point being raised.
TangoZulu 6y ago
It wasn’t an objection/correction, you were virtue signaling. Nobody here cares about that shit.
Rudedabega 6y ago
When a dam is cracked and spilling out water you don’t allow it to continue to crack open. You patch it up before the town is flooded.
Concern trolling both online and off have contributed to the decline that TRP has adapted to. Doesn’t mean we have to tolerate it.
Sexism is a sensationalist term used all too often in today’s age when addressing differences between sexes. It has no purpose unless you’re trying to sell something to a mass audience. I won’t buy it.
hemlock35 6y ago
Calm down, cowboy, I’ve addressed this in the responses.
Rudedabega 6y ago
You’ve addressed it with anecdotal unicorns.
That kind of hole can only be climbed out of with more life experience. Wish you all the best.
trp_throwaway_88 6y ago
You didn't object to anything in a factual sense. Calling something "sexist" is not a correction or objection that carries any importance.
hemlock35 6y ago
I agree that my definition of “sexism” is left ambiguous, but I do mention that Aristotle (see Politics) sees men as “naturally superior” and views women as only existential subordinates to men. So when he says that men and women can’t be in a virtue-based friendship (which is false I have three virtue based friendships with women, two of which I sleep with occasionally) I naturally distrust him because of his view of women as inherently inferior.
We_Are_Legion 6y ago
Normally, I use the "men and women are not better or worse, just different" copout too. It's easier than going into details of how "different" can easily mean "superior" or "inferior" under different belief systems.
In this context, I'll absolutely support Aristotle's view on friendship. It's easy to see why Aristotle's value system would say women's differences make them inferior.
Men are evolutionarily protectors, providers, and creators of value. Women are evolved to extract value from men, in return making children.
It's not hard to see that, in general, men will be incentivized and have the instincts to create the Good Life, while women won't. Men will be used for utilitarian purposes by women. No need to be good yourself. In friendship, the woman will extract value from the man. The man, not being an extractor by nature, can have true friendship, but will probably be thinking about sex with her.
If Aristotle used that to say women are inferior, he's not wrong. Though personally I respect Machiavellianism and say "why is working hard and creating value superior to manipulating someone to give you value instead?"
Outside of a virtue based perspective, the latter is more impressive.
EDIT: You don't have unicorns. You give reach other gendered value
xddm2653 6y ago
by evolution they are naturally superior though. In strength, reflex, survival, etc. I don't think Aristotle cared enough about PC culture to ignore this truth
trp_throwaway_88 6y ago
Undergrads are so refreshing. At least you're spending more time on Aristotle than 21 Savage. (hopefully)
Being an erudite young man, I'm sure you understand that the inevitable rare exceptions to a rule don't disprove said rule -- and that three women out of three billion currently alive, and roughly 24 billion women in human history (if the 14:1 ratio of people who've died : people currently alive is true), are among the most exceptional of exceptions.
Congrats on your stable of unicorns, try not to get too disillusioned if (when?) you wake up a few years from now and realize they're just horses wearing party hats. We'll be here for you if (when?) that happens.
hemlock35 6y ago
Yeah of course, I understand but I also see these kind of relationships in my friends. After witnessing a phenomena like this one, I start to speculate why certain relationships do in fact run in parallel to various ideas such as RP philosophy, and certain relationships seem to not follow suit. I come to a temporary conclusion and compare my speculations to your speculations, and we converse on those differences, and I have at least temporarily come to the conclusion that the RP philosophy oversimplifies societal and personal relationships. (Though if you’d like to discuss this in detail PM me, would be happy to listen)
trp_throwaway_88 6y ago
All theory oversimplifies. Theory on human behavior is essentially heuristics. Even the 'hard science' studies on human behavior rarely draw incisive, definite conclusions.
There's a utilitarian value to oversimplification in this case, too. TRP isn't merely about finding the most accurate explanations of human relationships possible, or else you'd end up with a bunch of carefully-qualified statements that give little direct guidance on how to live. The ultimate goal of TRP is to give men the tools they need to succeed in modern society as efficiently as possible. Parsimony and efficiency are sometimes more important than raw accuracy, since the ultimate goal isn't total accuracy but operational usefulness. Sometimes you find legitimate exceptions (which is why I was only playfully dismissive earlier - you may really have found exceptions in your own life, and if so, sincerely, that's good).
Have you taken any economics classes in school by any chance? TRP reminded me a lot of conventional economics classes in a sense -- you're starting with premises that are mostly true because they allow for a lot of efficient and internally-consistent extrapolations on how to act rationally as an individual with particular needs. The goal isn't absolute accuracy, but finding the most efficient actionable rules of engagement. Sometimes you need to deviate from those rules to get the best outcome you can get.
The reason you'll see some of us posting like this is Gospel isn't because it's literally 100% always true, as a religious text would have you treat itself -- it's that TRP's core principles are that great of an upgrade in accuracy and efficient recommendations for self-improvement relative to what we were taught growing up in American/Western society.
Stick around. You're smart, you'll find some use for this stuff even if you're not on board with some of the concepts in here.
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
caleyjag 6y ago
I can't really get behind this. Maybe it's the sports I played growing up (rugby, soccer) but I far prefer to be part of a squad than a lone wolf. Having a close group of trustworthy men that I can count on and confide in is invaluable to me. Talking about teams, the key part is to make sure you pull your own weight.
Admittedly I'm finding LTR, kids, job and location have made it sometimes hard to maintain these long term relationships, but so far my oldest and closest friends have been there when I need them.
saganist91 6y ago
That is the tricky part, especially if your of theirs values completely change over time and for example and you or they consider a career in organized crime let's say (as a thought experiment). When you are alone for the most part you are not being held back by others, your are more free to go down all sorts of paths (which may not be a good thing).
caleyjag 6y ago
That is certainly true, but your friend group can evolve to omit people that have made bad decisions or turn out to be bad eggs for whatever reason. I've had to do that several times in my life so far. Generally speaking though, most of the guys that were solid in my youth are still pretty solid today and I would imagine (hope?) that is going to be the case more often than not for most men.
Ragnarok314159 6y ago
Men in particular have two sets of friends:
1) Utilitarian friends. These are the most common. The work buddies, the class friends, to a lesser extent Army buddies (those have a different, lifelong loyalty especially if you deployed together) and other 9-5 archetypes. Once the utility of the underlying relationship is lost, the friendship fades away. It happens, and it is not something to mourn. All of us here would likely go have a beer with the cool dude from work, but it won’t ever happen.
2) Your really close friends that you can keep your entire life. Let’s face it, these seldom happen in the male universe. This can be for a multitude of reasons, be it the machismo culture where we don’t talk in depth to one another, busy schedules that only has room for utilitarian friends, or just a complete lack of a need to share emotional issues with others. Instead, a lot of guys just share the things we have learned.
Friendship and love is not an interchangeable set of items. The two are very different, especially once children are involved, but there are strong utilitarian aspects to love and friendship.
Your father isn’t wrong, but somewhat incomplete. I do know guys who have a best friend. I am not one of them.
[deleted] 6y ago
1 is rarely sustained in the male universe because male friendship and bonding are based on mutually shared activities and hardship. Working and living together towards a goal and experiencing hardship builds these bonds. It simulates the bonds we felt within our hunter-gatherer kin groups when men hunted together and fought other bands together.
High school and college friends partly re-create this feeling. You see each other almost every day and your "goal" is to have fun together. Sports teams as well. Fraternities and the military are the closest because you actually live together.
Corporate life just does not re-create these feelings. There are women mixed in, which screws up the dynamic, and it is almost by definition a solitary affair. Even if you work in teams, you have your own salary and you are there to benefit yourself and no one else. Not to mention that sitting in a desk and staring at a screen is a completely depressing and does nothing to help men bond.
[deleted]
CasaDeFranco 6y ago
I would concur, an old mentor of mine lived a successful life as a businessman, big family, young wife, three children.
In his youth he was in the Russian organised crime. When we would play squash, he removed his rings, on his wedding finger he had this tattoo of a cirle with a dot in the center.
One evening drinking I asked him what they meant, the one his wedding finger he said "Trust no one but yourself".
Wise words.
nofilmynofucky 6y ago
On 4 separate occasions, I've lost what I considered to be a fantastic friend when he realized we definitely were never going to hook up. I've gotten better at spotting 'closeted gay/bi dudes who think you might be one as well' types and don't invest in the friendships as heavily.
all that said, I'll be the first to admit that I'm clearly gay bait
[deleted]
Mr-Ed209 6y ago
Absolutely. You realise why men tend to lose most of their friends as they get older and struggle to make new ones. In a 'traditional' sense men move around for work, get promoted and whatever else and drop friends consistently.
I left my hometown around 4 years back to travel and work. Now im back things are same but different. Friends have moved on (rightfully so) with LTR's or moving for work, the ones who still do the same shit just no longer appeal to me (im from a pretty nothing town). These are friends i've known since childhood. I'll hang with them because theres no one else. But come a month when im due to leave again i dont think ill make any effort to return. Maybe the odd christmas and holiday it will be cool to cross paths and catch up. But beyond that it would be forcing a relationship that isn't there anymore. We do different things, we dont have the bond of sharing school, college or the excitement that existed going to bars at say 22. You see a lot of people in regional pubs that have had the same circle of friends and life in their mid 50s and it for many guys it sparks a feeling of - fuck this i need to go and live new places.
ObjectiveInitial 6y ago
One hell of a red pill right here. Preach.
bountyhunterdjango 6y ago
If you were diagnosed with cancer and had 3 months to live, how many of your friends do you think would spend time with you and help you out till the end? If you can pick a few, which I hope you can, hopefully you'll understand that friendship is not pure utility, just as humans are not purely logical creatures. You have nothing to gain from a close, ill, dying friend, but hopefully you wouldn't abandon them as soon as their 'usefulness' expired.
TangoZulu 6y ago
This is true. I would fully expect a girlfriend to bail on you in rough times before a close friend would. I think the difference is that women only value relationships (and men) for their utility, whereas men will remain brothers through good times and bad.
wheel_ 6y ago
This is what my aunt told me one time I was having life conversations with her:
Who were your friends 5 years ago? Who are your friends now? Are there any names that answer both questions?
I simply let out an empty “damn”.
People change and time goes on. Some friends stick around, others don’t.
jizzledfreq 6y ago
What about Rhett & Link from "Good Mythical morning" on YouTube? Dudes have been best friends since 1st grade and are in their 40's now.
EdwardBarnes1913 6y ago
I’ve made this point before.
Putting men on the pedestal will hurt you as well.
I was Red Pilled on “friends”/Male associates long before women (wish it was the other way round but hey ho).
Same rules apply mostly just more lightly.
And both work in tandem. If like a lot of us you struggled through youth I don’t believe the vast majority of your childhood“friends” will ever respect you. They will either continue to disrespect you or resent your success.
Women pick up on this then act accordingly.
If you were low value the absolute first thing you need to do is drop your friends. They will always be looking to “put you back in your place”.
mishasam89 6y ago
so painful to realize this...
UniversalFapture 6y ago
I rather just ride solo at this point.
slumdog-millionaire 6y ago
Working on becoming wildly successful in the near future, haven't made it quite yet but been wondering all along how "friends" I've known since I was a teen will react if and when it does happen. Wouldn't be at all surprised if the reality is what you say it is, I put friends in quotes as my relationships with these people are basically nonexistent at this point but I'm likely to still see them even if its once a year.
But yea I think what happens is those people will try and say "Oh they've changed, they made some money or found some success and it went to heir head, they're not the same anymore" basically putting the fault on you and saying you changed, you're the bad guy etc. that's why we're not friends anymore when really the concept of friendship is a myth just as OP said.
A friend is just someone who adds value, that's it, always been true, true now, will be true all our lives
Arabian_Wolf 6y ago
First impression lasts.
Tried it with so-called childhood friends, all I got was both disrespect and resentment, cut them from my life for over two years, which was the last time I saw them.
[deleted]
BeATrumpet 6y ago
This is so not true in a 100% concept. I have multiple friends from childhood that we absolutely root each other on and support each other. We push each other to succeed and develop. One is a lawyer and I root him on and he roots me on with losing weight and getting girls.
EdwardBarnes1913 6y ago
I used the term “vast majority” as admission that in say a gang/friendship group of 20 people - a quarter may be decent. But to access them you have to put up with the negative majority which is a net loss. So the decision becomes an easy one.
Also this only applies to boys like me who lacked confidence/strength/esteem in relation to the gang.
If you were medium to high value in your group this will not apply just I know us late developers are wildly over represented in the manosphere for obvious reasons.
[deleted]
Failwood 6y ago
If you leave your basement it’s easy to make friends!
DropDeadTyrant 6y ago
If there's one thing I learned in hs, it's that friends don't last. I never had many friends nor do I strive for that. But, every year I made at least one quality friend. Even though I still desire to be popular, deep down I know that having that one quality friend, no matter how temporary, is better than having 20 acquaintances.
kgncpro 6y ago
I realized a long time ago, I don't have friends. I have family and acquaintances. Family is not always blood either.
Demiurge_Decline 6y ago
This sounds like a badly modified version of MGTOW. The next thing you know somone will suggest not having any male friends at all but just being a hermit. I think anyone that compares male bonds to LTR's have no idea about true friendship. Yes, many of us dont have strong male friendships but we do have friends that have best friends and no real man would suggest its fake. I had my best friend for years until his decisons even ones of a sexual kind, seperated our friendship.... Male friendship are invaluable, and cannot be put in the same catergory as any woman/male relationship. Ask the greeks/Romans and your favorite philosophers....
[deleted] 6y ago
You really missed the point and went way off target. I wasn’t saying that there are no meaningful and profound friendships, so why bother building them. What I’m saying is that any friendships no matter how meaningful, with time, can fade away. So we shouldn’t be saddened by the loss and keep striving forward. The thought process behind it is akin to the “She’s not yours, it’s just your turn” philosophy. But who knows, your turn might indeed last forever, just like that kid with massive amounts of pennies clutching to that one arcade game in the arcade hall.
Demiurge_Decline 6y ago
nice neg. Seems you missed a vast number of comments that were more or less geared towards oh your friends are going to leave you one day so be on guard and other insecure non sense. It makes sense to understand that friendships change like your tastes do especially with ag and growth. But some comments seems as if you will inevitably be alone and view male friendships as just as temporary and volatile as woman and I disagree. it's just your turn philosophy turned towards men will cause too much thinking that is self fulfilling prophecy. Yes, you will get sad but dont expect people to leave you, sounds like insecurity. next bluepill men will call spinning spoons ie male relationships or some other bs red pill.
[deleted] 6y ago
[deleted]
[deleted] 6y ago
Average Frustrated Chump. Your typical beta male.
[deleted]
UseryMcNameface 6y ago
Agreed. Also, you touched an important point with love and friendship being inseparable. There's that old lie of "let's be friends" after a relationship breaks down, but if you couldn't work out as lovers you almost certainly can't be friends either.
Krelious 6y ago
I would say while you are right perhaps theres a more insidious reason for it ie social engineering rather than something human nature itself. I mean human beings are naturally pragmatic, most people are not going to go out of their way to be friends with you if it is costly for them to do so.
You also do not take into account the lasting impact you can have on someones life in terms of the influence you have in terms of giving them direction or just fond memories. Are you are saying its a bad thing that people dont bend themselves over assbackwards to maintain friendships?
Life is extremely complex and nuanced being in this "red pill" mindset is a good idea to maintain objective reality and composure but do not allow it to make you feel jaded or have a sense of moral/intellectual superiority over others.
[deleted] 6y ago
OP correctly lays out the symptoms, but he misdiagnoses the disease. Fading and superficial friendships are a symptom of our atomized modern society, not the nature of male friendship.
It's just hard for men to maintain friendships as we age because male friendship, or more accurately brotherhood, is built around doing things together. The more dangerous and important the thing, the closer the bond. Sports teams, fraternities, military all create the closest bonds. Living and working together to accomplish a common goal simulates what it was like for us when we lived in kin based hunter-gatherer bands. It's very hard to re-create these things later in life. Corporate life is a fundamentally solitary affair. That's why these work relationships usually seem so superficial, no matter how hard you try to get close to other guys at work.
If you really think that all male friendships are superficial and for convenience only though, I feel really bad for you. Care to explain why some men are willing to literally die for each other?
[deleted] 6y ago
The same reason why some men tend to grovel at the feet of their ONEitis.
[deleted]
cafeitalia 6y ago
In our lives, hundreds of people come and go. We call them friends and twenty years later you have no idea where they are and only thing left if a few moment of memory. Same with love. There is no love. There is no need to love a woman. And there is absolutely no need to fall in love with a woman. Just like hundreds of people you called friends both male and female, all the woman you sleep with, date, made a plate, fucked and left, or married etc are just passing. Do not be attached to anything or anyone!
UncleChido 6y ago
True words. It’s a fuckin cold world.
Truedemocracy4 6y ago
Ever hear of "no such thing as a free lunch"? Everything in life, including relationships, is transactional. You will not live a happy or fulfilled life if you go around all your friends and trying to see what you gain or lose with each one.
As you progress yes you'll have crab in bucket friends. Recognize this behavior and cut them out. You'll also have friends that are below you in accomplishment. That doesn't mean cut them out if you enjoy the companionship and if they are loyal. this world can suck sometimes and most of you guys are young and haven't faced true adversity. It's nice not to go through it alone.
IPunishIron 6y ago
Average Folks make Average Friends, likely most friends you make in School/High School are just guys going through the same deal. Real friends are guys you might meet later in life and well, might be 1-2 of them. And yea the Masculine Struggle thing is real, you do share common ground and it becomes just like seeing a family member and like mens therapy to a sense..you just enjoy being in the others company.. you know? But most folks wont get to see that. Remember most folks are blue pilled, most folks dont care for more, just beer and sport or haha hehe hipster types. you do you, I do me. all the best.
[deleted]
ozaku7 6y ago
Most blue pill men have the believe that they can own a woman like an object, and then get pissed they have their own will and don't want to be "owned" by the beta male.
But yes, love is basically like friendship, except you have some lust and serotonine addiction in the mix which makes you addicted to the person you are "in love" with. Same like your best friend, but you don't have any lust towards him.
zyqkvx 6y ago
I'm not religious, yet that's the lesson of Job. He lost everything, wife left in hot second.
For me the big ones were:
Slowly realizing my entire family were California-style sociopaths and my purpose in life was to be the official cat's claw and scapegoat.
Friends are merely acquaintances on a pedestal. Best friends move on to new locations to live out their lives; time passes and said friendship becomes irrelevant.
hammerhearth 6y ago
I love your last point. It's not that Job concluded that there's no such thing as love, or that life is hard, but rather there's straightforward no god.
What a red pill mother fucker
JaspersChest 6y ago
I'd like to see the evidence for this conclusion about Job.
[deleted]
ding3 6y ago
Totally agree. That’s why I have given up on the concept of friendship a long time ago and just roll with people that happen to be somehow connected to me at the time be it by proximity, circumstance, interests, blood ties etc. Even family is romanticised bullshit. I’ve cut out some family members out of my life because they bring no value to it.
Poloyatoki 6y ago
This is spit on when you change and friends stagnant and you improve they tend to be less important since these days friendship is based wholey on gain. Much like female love.
JinxsLover 6y ago
I would say friendship is based on convenience in your 20s there were a couple guys I was close to but now I've realized they are only around when it is easy or they get to do their favorite thing. Hung out with a guy 15 years and now a combination of his weed and fortnite have divided us completely turns out we were only friends so long because we had the same interests.
Poloyatoki 6y ago
You hit it on the head man. My best friend is 25 and I'm 27 while I'm moving up my career ladder he is doing a 4 year degree for 6 years which at best will make him a fifth of what I earn. Yet all he wants to do is hang out and drink with girls that friendzone him and expects me to foot the bill because I work. I met him when I was 6 years old. I've tried red pilling him multiple times because I care, I want him to see that he needs to take up his burden of performance for Himself and get his life in order. But alas all we ever talk about is going to parties something I now do once or twice a year because I have goals. We here on TRP are all goal oriented.
JinxsLover 6y ago
I'm just glad I found you guys been needing a kick in the ass to get doing something different. I just had like a year on autopilot video games youtube and school and now I'm like holy shit I just threw away a year. Trying to kick the video games and get back in shape.
in-site 6y ago
I'm not totally sure I understand your post, but I'll throw my two cents in...
"Love" refers to a ton of different emotions. I think we're talking about romantic love, but even there, there are different kinds of romantic loves. I've loved every boyfriend a little differently. Every relationship I've had has started out with friendship, but it feels like it advances beyond that, way beyond 'friends with benefits.' Maybe it's deeper trust, vulnerability, or affection, I don't know...
I can't break down exactly how friendship and love are different, but I can say that without exception: friendship exhausts me, love gives me energy/comfort/drive. No matter how much I love my friends or family members, I'd rather be alone most of the time (I'm suuuper introverted). But with my romantic partner, whoever he is, I could spend every moment of every day with him. So there's something different going on psychologically (or socially, or physiologically, or neurologically).
They're definitely different things, but both powerful and worthwhile.
[deleted] 6y ago
They are different, but they are similar in some ways.
milo0o 6y ago
Nice read, and it definitely has some merit to it. I fear you may be looking at it too biologically and forgetting you can make a conscious effort to keep friendships if you value that person. I have a friend that I met in gifted in second grade and we became best friends when he taught me how to play chess (second grade me is probably 9000% better at chess than current me), and we've maintained that friendship still.
I rarely get to see him, as hes moved across the state. The times we do hang out though, it's like nothing has ever changed. We still make the same jokes as we did in 8th grade, have the same hobbies, etc. One of my best bros no doubt.
On the romance side, I'll have to agree on the biological part. It's hard for me to believe in love anymore, no matter how hard the oneitis hits me. But on the plus side of it, that leaves more room for me to do the things I want instead of for that one girl I was obsessing over.
LiveAFTSOV 6y ago
Great post. I enjoyed it. Nice one guy
hulk_hogans_alt 6y ago
There was a post recently on the social skills subreddit by a guy who said he was happy he got friend zoned. Of course I got downvoted for calling it for what it was. People just don’t want to listen because they’re programmed by feminist culture and this idiotic idea that everyone gets to live a romcom.
[deleted]
hulk_hogans_alt 6y ago
The amount of cognitive dissonance in that thread was ridiculous.
Wolfgang985 6y ago
It's a bit déjà vu for me coming across this comment. I had this exact conversation with my father last week.
In short, a buddy and I were talking about a friend of ours we never talk to anymore. We both reminisced about how we used to be "the trio" during our high school and college days.
Eventually, we all became career focused and moved in different directions. No feuds. No malice. Life just moves on for everyone.
I have noticed, however, that there is a very small group of friends I have never lost touch with in all my years. I may not see them for months on end, but we touch base somewhat often. The reason is simple: we all have many shared interests - whether that be golfing, fishing, weightlifting or real estate.
As life progresses, previous interests no longer become interesting; in turn, friendships fade as a result. That said, there are numerous interests and activities that exist across all age spectrums. So, I slightly disagree with OPs assessment of long term friendships - they can certainly exist in some scenarios.
[deleted]
Acslaterisdead 6y ago
That's why one has to be pragmatic. Especially since time is such a valuable commodity.
AshyLarry27 6y ago
I've always sensed friendships are maintained in this manner after college is over and everyone is working. It's important to live a fulfilling life with aspiration and adventure in it, not just for yourself, not just to bring something to the table with women, but people in general. If you have nothing to bring to the table, you are useless. BB is a big concept even in friendship. To throw money and material things at people to keep them around shows you're a one trick pony that they will happily take advantage of.
ThePsyentificMethod 6y ago
How do you explain that instant connection you have with an old friend after not seeing each other for months or years? You pick up where you left off, it is like you never left. Just because you don’t talk on the phone every day doesn’t mean your not friends anymore.
Compeliminator 6y ago
i agree, i have a few friends that ive had for 30 plus years and i will have them for life
[deleted] 6y ago
Are you as close to them as you were before?
Did they move on to other things?
Do you or they still enjoy the same activities as they did when you were still in town?
You might still be friends since all of you left on good terms, but can you guarantee that you'll still be as close to them as you were before?
ThePsyentificMethod 6y ago
Nothings guaranteed but it has been 10 years and one of them just called me to ask my advice on getting a divorce from his abusive wife. Idk I just think it’s more complicated than the post made it seem.
acenumber902 6y ago
Yeah i agree with you , there's no absolute truths about anything .... sometimes things arent just black or white they can be gray too , that's my view
mithra97 6y ago
Good, because I have no friends!
RoiMartel 6y ago
This is mostly true as I've experienced this myself. But there's another type of friendship between men - warbuddies. Those who've gone through hell and back with each other. In my case it came from a particular, very stressful, very competitive job experience where we, as a team held together to keep our sanity. We've all gone our separate ways since then but still keep in touch and get together about once a year to reminisce, party and share a few drinks. Our experience is the bond and our continued relationship is monitoring those still in the field and swapping stories/experiences related to it. I've not been through it myself but I can't help but feel that this is similar to what military men have gone through.
How is that different from "Love?" Hell if i know. I've tried extrapolating the concepts and devotions I've felt with these friends to women in my life and none compare. If both are attracted passionately that should help somewhat - but women will drop that like a hot potato for their hypergamous ways wants the passion fades (and maybe this is part of the reason they like drama - to increase "bonding" through intense, but in this case fake, experiences). Another shared experience like that would be raising a child together but in today's society of single mothers and the father only being a seed and cash dispenser there's not much room for bonding that way either.
Blud_swit_tirs 6y ago
I have a female best friend from my blue pill days,and I still keep her around because it allows me to see the red pill in action,she has a boyfriend and yet she enjoys the company and attention of other men very gladly and he just doesn't bat an eye(what not to do in an LTR),so I guess she is a useful study subject in a way,and I practice some TRP principles on her,e.g. Don't listen to what women say,watch what they do,for instance,we recently had an argument and didn't talk for a week or so,during the argument she mentioned how her life is in a way getting better and all that and how she in a way doesn't need me anymore,after a week when I got into contact with her,because I thought that its better because she does add some value to my life,we talked and argued a bit more and she seemed distant,after that I saw her once or twice and all of a sudden she is closer to me than before and she now messages me more often,what I understood after that is that women can mostly just talk,but actions are not their strong point,she said her life is better without me but she knows deep down inside she's lying to herself,because even this new social circle of hers is probably gonna go down hill in a few months,because its a group of like 8-10 people and 5-6 are a tight group from before,and all of us who have been in one of those groups or had one know that they fall apart within a year or so,I know from experience because I've had like 4 of those and the end result is the same
ya_stepdaddy 6y ago
Yeah I know what you mean, I ended up smashing all of mine from my blue pill days. Just do it, you know you want to.
MarcosDomingues 6y ago
Lmao she doesn't need your friendship, she just needs a cuck friend to serve as an emotional tampon to cry on.
Blud_swit_tirs 6y ago
True,but I'm in sort of a pickle since she is my Alpha best friends sister,and I know most of her family and our mothers are friends so I can't really throw her away without any problems later on
stylesm11 6y ago
Yeah dawg my friends don't have hissy fits, that sounds unbenificial to you, but still interesting concept
Blud_swit_tirs 6y ago
Well,she does add some value e.g. 5 months ago when I was sick as a dog she came to my house with medicine fruit n shit,she was the only one to do it,she is a good person but she is still a woman and has her moments
pastastick 6y ago
This is an interesting study of yours I guess but I think you’re forgetting that some men can also be “all talk”. In general, you should always look for actions instead.
Blud_swit_tirs 6y ago
Yes,but I've become accustomed to them and can see through men's bullshit,but it's a little harder with women