Forgive me if this is sidebar material, but I'm kind of pressed for time here.
I've been with my LTR for a year now. Our relationship has been shaky due to the fact that she is insecure and needs lots of reinforcement. This results in her getting upset with me for ridiculous things, which in turn has caused my attraction in her to fade. Having said that, she is beautiful, fun, smart, and a great partner in my life.
This is not the first time I have found myself feeling that I can do better, or continuously telling myself I need to end the relationship. It is not the first time I have questioned whether or not I am taking a great thing for granted. This leads me to the topic of my post..
Does love exist?
I have yet to feel this, and it is the one thing that has pulled me away from good relationships. I am always longing for more, hoping there is someone out there who consumes my thoughts more than those of myself. Is this just a beta idea? Will I only feel love by succumbing to the beta, white knight mentality?
We broke up two weeks ago. We had been drinking and entered another fight. I had started keeping a log of all the times I had forgiven her - as a reminder. This time, she bluffed, and suggested a break. I called it, ending the relationship, to her regret.
Since then, I have hit the gym, kept myself busy, and felt overall good. But I still can't help but think I just passed up on something too good. So I told her we could grab dinner and see if any feelings are left. Then she began acting like we were together but didn't hold back while telling me about her plans to get a boob job and how she had other men (people I'm friends with) awaiting her return to the market.
This took me from annoyed to angry quicker than I'd like to admit, so I left the conversation and haven't spoken to her since.
I know most of you will say 'next'. I have been on the other side and know it is the simple solution, but I'm looking for some kind of acknowledgement that good relationships are hard to come by, and that maybe I was just being a prick by thinking I could do better. In other words, am I the problem here?
Set me straight.
edwardhwhite 9y ago
Love = dread.
chadee 9y ago
Fuck you just blew my mind.
shemayknowmyusername 9y ago
It's true. I think I've only really felt "love" when I had the underhand in the relationship, or there was still uncertainty about it.
favours_of_the_moon 9y ago
Who cares if "love" exists, and what that is.
It's not for us.
FrameWalker 9y ago
The relationship sounds like it's over and was harmful. You have residual feelings sure but you didn't pass up a good opportunity since she was insecure and dragging you down. Do better.
Don't look for love sickness. Look for respect. The question is does this woman add more to my life or take more away. Is she respectful and kind?
Authority8 9y ago
Sounds like she fucked up. Good luck.
I think I'm falling in love right now. It's going to be so sad if this girl fucks it up by crossing a boundary. So far she's been great though.
I think falling in love is sexual infatuation. It's the honeymoon phase people talk about. It can last a few months at the beginning or long for some people.
Being in love is when you put someone's happiness first, even if it means you have to sacrifice with zero gain. Not to be confused with empathy which is when you feel sorry for them thus sacrifice for them.
Being in love is stupid and be careful with that. Falling in love is fun but keep your goals and priorities in order or you'll end up worse on the other end.
Authority8 9y ago
Sounds like she fucked up. Good luck.
I think I'm falling in love right now. It's going to be so sad if this girl fucks it up by crossing a boundary. So far she's been great though.
I think falling in love is sexual infatuation. It's the honeymoon phase people talk about. It can last a few months at the beginning or long for some people.
Being in love is when you put someone's happiness first, even if it means you have to sacrifice with zero gain. Not to be confused with empathy which is when you feel sorry for them thus sacrifice for them.
Being in love is stupid and be careful with that. I do it a little bit with a few friends, family, and women... as long as it doesn't cross my boundaries. Falling in love is fun but keep your goals and priorities in order or you'll end up worse on the other end.
648262 9y ago
Love is magical word we added to the feelings of pleasure we get from being with a specific other person. It is the same pleasure as you get from a hot cup of coffee on a lazy Sunday morning, though a tad more intense.
Where you draw the line between "I really like spending time with this person" and "I love this person" is up to you, but it's really not something you need to concern yourself with too much.
It is your brain that is feeling these things and it has very little to do with the other person. Stop being a naive little boy who believes in fairytales of yesteryear. Just experience - do you enjoy the other persons company? Keep at it. Does she drain your energy? Move along.
apskidb 9y ago
Love, as you describe it, does not exist. You're seeking something (this love) that is external to you. Don't go back to the relationship.
Work on yourself and do things just for you for now to learn more about yourself and the world. Keep reading and it'll all fall into place for you.
jdgalt 9y ago
Don Draper had it right in Mad Men. True love is an idea that ad men made up to sell nylons.
sunwukong155 9y ago
Here is how I see it.
Love in a relationship is a choice individuals make to work on a relationship. Love is not an emotion you feel towards someone. Love is not trust and commitment. Love is effort and work, which is why many in out community like to say it's detrimental or that it doesn't exist.
Love isn't always fun and it isn't always in our best interests. Our emotions can change and we no longer feel a "spark" or some bullshit emotion towards someone, so we can choose to love them and continue on with things, against the tide of emotion... Or we can follow the current and leave. It's a simple choice.
Relationships go up and down over the years. Women are emotional creatures so it's intensely difficult for them to love, because when it starts to take too much work.. They cop out.
As men, if we want to love, we need to be vigilant and constantly working towards our relationships to maintain attraction and respect.
Stinger86 9y ago
Yo man, my situation mirrors yours very closely.
Here is my recent post if you want to read it.
What you said here: "I've been with my LTR for a year now. Our relationship has been shaky due to the fact that she is insecure and needs lots of reinforcement. This results in her getting upset with me for ridiculous things, which in turn has caused my attraction in her to fade."
I can completely identify with this. The girl in question would blow up at me over small things. Anytime I mention another girl at all, or especially the fact that I USED TO enjoy something about another girl, she will feel crushed and get super upset and uncommunicative. If my sleep patterns don't align with hers (she has to be up for work kind of early and I don't), she will get mopey and depressive that I'm not up to talk to her all through her work hours.
She frequently asks "You love me?" and "You mine?"
All of this stuff, all this codependent behavior, will over time start to wear on the mind and emotions of men who dislike being controlled and desire to be who they are without being molded to fit into a role (loving boyfriend in this case).
When your girlfriend is chronically insecure, what this does is summon up your "nurturing reserves" to placate her and make her feel good. Alpha dudes aren't super nurturing by default. So asking us to be nurturing all the time exhausts us.
Before me, my girl dated a lesbian, which makes sense. Girls, even lesbian girls, are naturally much more nurturing than are guys. Even though their sex life was bad (from what she told me), this previous girl was able to constantly placate my girl's insecurity and nurture her.
My point though, is that what's happening is that your and my girl are asking us to give, give, give that nurturing energy and become mad/upset at us when our supply of it exhausts itself (because we are naturally in short supply of it by virtue of not being touchy-feely beta men).
Does love exist? That's a tricky question everyone has to wrestle with. For my part, I aknowledge that I DO love this girl and probably always will, but that staying with her is emotionally and psychologically unhealthy. It's a kind of brutal codependence rife with peaks and valleys that will slowly whittle away your personhood, your unique individuality, as you are sculpted to fit the mold of the role your girl needs (gentle reassurer).
I can occupy that role from TIME TO TIME, but not all the time, so something has to give. Either you make peace with the fact that you will have to struggle to change a core component of yourself (low nurturing reserve) to placate your girl's insecurity, or she makes a commitment to be less insecure and take ownership over her emotions, OR you leave. There aren't any other pathways I can see.
Asking an alpha guy to be super nurturing is like asking an introvert to do a public speaking tour 365 days a year. You are asking someone to rebel against their very nature, which will of course result in unhappiness. That's what your and my girl are doing, but they don't realize it. They just think "Why is he SUCH an uncaring asshole?" They don't realize that we are being driven into the ground by our inability to meet their inexhaustible desire for sweet tenderness.
So again, can you and do you love her? Maybe. In my case, I acknowledge that I do. But I acknowledge that if I stay there, as things stand, then I assure my slow self-destruction, a piecemeal culling of my natural personality into a cookie-cutter reassuring beta-man.
It's hard, very hard. My girl sent me multiple messages last night telling me how angry she is with me. She is pissed. She feels like she was foolish to try again with me (we first broke up in 2012).
I explained everything to her that I explained to you above, and she said she rationally understands where I'm coming from, but she's still pissed. She keeps accusing me of "bailing."
She's right that I bailed, but if I didn't, I would continue to enter into conflict points centered around her neediness and my inability to placate it to her satisfaction. In the end, her neediness is the problem, not my inability to supply an endless deluge of nurturing energy to her. She is the one making the peculiar and unhealthy demand. She is the one who needs to read-self help (which I sent to her... I sent her the PDF of Psycho Cybernetics).
At some point you have to acknowledge the fact that you entered into an unhealthy transaction with someone you possibly love and care about. Sort of like giving a drug to someone who keeps asking you for it. When you're out of drugs, the person gets mad/upset.
But the problem in the first place is not your lack of drugs, but this person's unquenchable addiction to the drugs.
shemayknowmyusername 9y ago
Fuck man, you got it. I first read your post, then the comments that were made, and I was able to think of it from the outside perspective. You have identified all the options that I saw, and supported my initial reasoning behind the breakup through your explanation. I so want to make things easy for both of us by getting back together, but it's true that her longing for my reassurance will not come from me without a concentrated effort and I know I can't genuinely engrain that into my nature. I really appreciate your comment.
Stinger86 9y ago
You're welcome. Like I said, I'm dealing with a similar situation, so I've been thinking about it a lot.
SunnyJohnson 9y ago
Don't second guess yourself. This girl may be quality, but if you are fighting all the time an LTR is not worth it. As the "love chemicals" wear off in your brain you will no doubt be tempted to fall back. Don't do it.
To answer the second part of your question, that's what love is, chemicals in your brain. You won't ever find that "one, true love" either, that's beta bucks thinking; accept it.
But that doesn't mean don't continue to strive for the best and highest quality women. Your problem of always trying to do better is a good problem, and despite the horror stories from r/relationships and TRP, there are a lot of high quality women out there that make great domestic partners. Find the best one possible and treat her well, hell you can even enjoy the love chemicals while they are strong, but always remember AWALT and never lose focus that your happiness comes first.
shemayknowmyusername 9y ago
So what happens if I have a good woman, the love chemicals have worn off (and I'm content still), and I just have to put up with her needing reassurance all the time? Is that really worth me moving on?
SunnyJohnson 9y ago
Once the love chemicals wear off it gets harder but you if you play it correctly you shouldn't be constantly shit tested (her needing constant reassurance is a red flag). Continue to improve yourself, practice dread game, and don't get comfortable. If all goes well your woman will admire, look up to you and do as you please. It will never be unconditional and will take constant work but it's possible.
There are no unicorns but it's unlikely that you can't do better. Successful long term LTRs are possible but they have to be with a rare breed of woman and it doesn't seem like this woman is up to snuff.
serious_bs 9y ago
I feel you, I've been in the exact same situation (only 4 years of LTR) and I sacrificed a LOT (that's how men love, right?).
You can only be sure if the decision was right, if you meet someone better. If your gut is telling you something is wrong, you just know it's not worth the while.
However, another factor is the easy by which you can get a new girl. If you're good at game/approach/.., then I'd say next and meet someone better. That'll be the best way to get over someone.
If you suck at meeting new girls or you just don't encounter them, I don't know what to do. What's best, live alone (work on yourself, can you be alone?), or be in a non-perfect relationship?
Also, have you really lost attraction? If so, right choice. That shit's important.
Good luck, I'm with you.
shemayknowmyusername 9y ago
It's so hard to determine what 'better' is. I had been single for 2 years before dating this girl and she had high value as determined by our social group ("your girlfriend is awesome", random guys/girls approaching her in public to compliment her, etc). As my girlfriend she went above and beyond compared to any woman in my life. She was supportive of my dreams, my lifestyle, she cooked for me, she did everything for me. I was truly spoiled.
I think I'm pretty good at meeting girls but I have a huge crutch (alcohol and mdma). I realize that these two things take a huge toll on my well-being so I've been able to cut them out of my life while dating her. I fear I will lose my stability if single again.
Attraction. It has faded.
In reflection of my response to you, I think I am having problems with myself and my confidence in myself. It is a dark realization that I have perhaps been using this relationship to mask my own insecurities. Fuck.
serious_bs 9y ago
@better: I catch your drift. Although your relationship can show a lot of good signs (rationally: she's supportive, cooks for you, ..), it doesn't mean it ís a good relationship. The rational understanding is not the only thing that is important. It is known that women fall for higher value man (relative to hers), but the value gap (your own perceived value and her value, and vice versa) can also be too big: you can date any girl who is 1/2/3 and she will cook for you (probably do anything) if she believes you're really into her (been there done that). This 'gap' can also explain why you're not attracted to her (anymore - 'new is always better'/attractive/..). Don't listen to what others are saying. They are not red pill and they don't know what you feel.
Something else you can think about: what made you lose attraction and can you do something about that by being red pill? (e.g. help her over her confidence issues?)
You're pretty good at meeting other women, so I wouldn't worry too much (to me, it seems like you made the right choice). You'll meet someone else.
About the crutch: as you've read on trp plenty of times, love yourself and do everything for yourself. The instability of being single and the mdma/alcohol: realize this is about frame (as is go lift). Don't listen to your emotions (especially in bad times). Do what you have to (and you know you have to, keep your frame, just do it, you will be better after).
So one more thing: rationalize: you've broken up with a girl that did a lot for you, her value is (a lot?) lower than yours. She did things for you, but she wasn't worth the place of queen. This is also part of improving. Don't dramatize shit. Do stuff. You were fine before her, you'll be fine after her.
And don't lose frame!
Stinger86 9y ago
Hey again. Once again, similar situation. This girl is truly awesome. She drove me around when my car broke down to parts places (Sears/Autozone) and took a day off work to help me get all that done the next day. She pays for my meals or at least pitches in frequently. She reimburses me for the gas money I use to go see her. She plays old-school NES games with me. Fucking great girl.
Like you, attraction has also faded. She continues to smoke all day, which makes me not even want to kiss her. The sex, for whatever reason, is painful for me and scratches up my dick. I've used lube and had her trim her hair, but the pain persists. Her skin has been breaking out badly, and she hates it, which makes her even more insecure. I've constantly felt like I'm the one plugging the dam of low self esteem with my finger. Uh oh, she's insecure about that, gotta reassure her. Uh oh, she's insecure about this...gotta reassure her. After a while it becomes brutally exhausting.
The fact that she is a great girl, though, is what makes it so hard. I can't just rationalize it away. She IS a great girl and I DO love her. But attraction HAS faded and I AM exhausted by her neediness. Those are the facts.
So you are put into a wishbone decision of either sticking with the girl you love and enduring her neediness and your lack of attraction, or you split with a girl who is great and who you may love. It is NOT easy. It's a fucking Solomon's choice.
serious_bs 9y ago
So, is there nothing you can do about her insecurity but 'plugging the dam with your finger'?
How about being honest? How about 'the truth'? Red pill = the truth? How about red pill women?
I think she needs to face the fact and practice self acceptance. Her emotions/.. are not your responsibility.
BlackHeart89 9y ago
Trust me. That shit sounds romantic, but its fucking horrible. Its a distraction and it holds you back. And when shit hits the fan, you'll feel like you would have been better off if you were shot dead. And yes. Its beta. But whatever...
With so many women out there, life is too short to wait around indefinitely for something good to "possibly" show up. You've already given her a year. How much longer do you expect to wait?
She was attempting dread game. She miscalculated. Regardless of this, you should next her.
The honeymoon phase is easy shit. Things usually begin to go down here after a few months of a new relationship. Yes. Good relationships are very hard to come by. Without any details, I can't really say who is the problem. But regardless, if you've been with her for a year and longer and you're unhappy and want to end it, go for it. Why remain unhappy? Its not your responsibility to take on all her pain.
Does love is exist? What is love? Does it matter? Is it worth the bullshit that comes with it?
I would prefer to never fall in love again. Ever. That shit is far more trouble than its worth.
RPmatrix 9y ago
noob account UTFSE "love"
shemayknowmyusername 9y ago
I'm not sure what UTSFE is, but this is a throwaway.
RPmatrix 9y ago
UseTheFuckingSearchEngine
shemayknowmyusername 9y ago
OHHH. Yea I did, but I obviously felt the need to bring in my own personal matters for discussion. I guess everyone who posts these things is always looking for an easy answer that will make them feel better, but the answer is almost always to work on yourself.
'Man can not remake himself without suffering. For he is both the sculptor and the marble'. Can't remember the source for that one but I think it's appropriate.
RPmatrix 9y ago
"you" *felt the need" .... are you a girl by any chance?
you 'guess' wrong. Why do you make SO many assumptions?
Indeed it is, you would do well to take your own advice!
shemayknowmyusername 9y ago
You got me. You're so knowledgeable and helpful. Thank you for your precious time. Your username is so deep. You must see things so differently from everyone.
dreckmal 9y ago
This mentality is what makes you you think this is okay:
If you don't love yourself first and foremost, above all others, you won't be the kind of man any woman wants or needs. Women are never ever going to love you unconditionally (your mom is literally the only person in the world who could have). If you really want that kind of love, supply it yourself.
Yes. For doubting yourself. You can do better. Go do it.
shemayknowmyusername 9y ago
I appreciate your words of encouragement, but I feel you might be misinterpreting my concerns.
I believe that my problem is that I always think I can do better. That there must be a girl out there who brings out my beta tendencies, which in turn makes me feel like I am in love. Or have I established myself so well in my current relationship, that I think it must not be good enough?
I'm starting to confuse myself.
dreckmal 9y ago
Isn't that every man's problem?
I don't get it. Are you trying to find a unicorn that makes you weak in the knees? That literally sounds like a female fantasy to me.
I don't even know how to interpret this...