SMC's Window : The constrained arousal hypothesis
Challenging Dr. Jordan Peterson himself as a way for the readership to understand he is wrong on his views of the sexual marketplace.
Despite his desire for his belief system, which can be most accurately understood as operating as a traditional conservative, with knowledge of a woman's short term mate preferences, masquerading as a short term mate and or "compromise" within a long term relationship to be the optimal relationship structure for a man that wants a family, it is fundamentally misinformed.
The hypothesis is framed agnostically to him, yet as if it where to land on his desk. So for readers who haven't digested the content here properly, where it has distilled itself into some illformed approximation of what you should actually take away, imagine you, are sitting at the desk. Because you likely share some of the same fundamental attribution errors that he does.
| Important foundation content | Title |
|---|---|
| Trying to achieve long term results with a woman's short term mate preferences | Mitch's Purple Pill by Rollo |
| LTR\STR mate preferences | Protectors vs Providers & Killing the blue pill dream by Sadomasochrist |
| Reconciling the existence of "good girls" with female behavior, women as "states" | Schrödinger's (n)AWALT : Right now, she (never) love(s/d) you. E.g. tingles uber alles and why finding a "unicorn" is a waste of time by Sadomasochrist |
Executive Summary
Romantic love is the world's largest mutually shared illusion, and has become an illusory truth we choose to believe because of a significant number of cognitive biases and an inability to view the world through lenses other than our own. Relationship failure is a feature, not a flaw, of evolution which seeks to increase gene quality and diversity.
Discussions of the sexual marketplace itself are put through a patriarchal lens, and argued within a woman's long term mate preference paradigm.
The reconciliation of that last sentence was the dualistic hypothesis. Which only could have been born through male hubris. The idea that men had certain women who were "wife material" and others who were "just for fun" and the idea that women didn't have the same preferences had to die before we could realize that women selected men in the same way.
Endemic to understanding this are three female centric paradoxes. The last two, originate within this hypothesis.
- The female happiness paradox : Where as women approach their stated ideals for happiness, they lag men.
- The female arousal paradox : Where as women approach their stated ideals for relationships, they are sub-optimally aroused. This is self-evident within the results of the dual mating hypothesis.
- The egalitarian family paradox : Where as the more egalitarian a relationship is, the more likely it is to fail, causing less children to grow up in the household of their biological father. This is self-evident in higher divorce rates of highly egalitarian nations.
Men who believe they can use knowledge of a woman's sexual preferences for a LTR attempt to masquerade as STR mates, this is not a solution to "the problem", and can not be, for fundamental reasons.
The solution to this systemic problem, is found within the female happiness paradox and requires a shift in male conceptualizations of women along with institutional recognition of this paradox.
The entire sexual marketplace is constrained on the basis that the female sexual arousal window is much smaller than the male's. And most if not all of the conflicts in long term relationships, family and marriage arise out of this issue. One that we could state is simply that "arousal can't be negotiated." More or less, that the failure point of a relationship is female arousal in the company of the male.
This is not finger pointing, as this is a gendered issue, some time is spent explaining that if men shared the same biological constraints, they'd likely act in similar ways. Pleas to male virtue are likely without basis.
The outcome of this knowledge greatly conflicts with Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's posits to young men everywhere on how they should orient themselves within the sexual marketplace. Which can be summarized as to be "a civilized monster" while still adopting the traits of "a real man." Namely responsibility and family.
Cognitive biases that distort the ability to be able to see the sexual marketplace from the top down
Superordinate cognitive bias
Framing effect : First, we should understand that we're all seeing the same information and interpreting it in our own way. So while we're looking at the same world, we must control for our biases to see the truth that sits in front of us. Without this, we are constrained to an argument that is only addressing our willingness to accept or reject another's view of the same "truth." This is the reason this hypothesis is constructed in the way it is. It must accept that every reader will have a different view of every single facet to it, and attempt to control for the biases implicit to each portion of the illusory truth that has been debated since we've debated the idea of love and romance and whether or not we are monogamous creatures.
The bias that houses the rest of the issues
- Availability heuristic : Potential partners are either good or bad and we are either monogamous or polygamous. These are the first available possibilities.
- Availability cascade : Love is the world's largest mutually shared illusion. This is simply the widespread reinforcement of the availability heuristic. We then extend this notion to "finding good or bad partners and believing in or rejecting monogamy."
- Confirmation bias : Which we reinforce by assuring ourselves that we are able to obtain the positive outcomes we see occurring naturally. These couples act as promotion mechanisms, even though they are very rare. Most people will see their positive qualities in themselves.
- Declinism : Men view traditional conservative relationships and institutions as being "the best." When instead, it is best understood that these times simply represented the best tradeoffs in equity, not equality, and that it was the least suboptimal solution.
Mechanisms of action\Promotion mechanisms
We can understand this as the grease for the wheels.
- Natural declines in "love chemicals" to near depletion typically around 7 years (7 year itch) : This is part of the evolutionary framework which seeks to increase genetic quality and diversity.
- Innate competition for female resources (sex) from men which exacerbate this issue.
- Narrow lens of female perception of male attractiveness starting at top 20% of male attractiveness (does not follow a normal distribution) which blinds her to less attractive mates, making competition a certainty, even when women outnumber men greatly. This is also part of the evolutionary framework which seeks to increase genetic quality and diversity.
- Widespread belief in the ability to negotiate attraction and that we will hold reason over their animal self.
- Lack of widespread belief in the strength of post hoc rationalization and lower than perceived degrees of control over free will.
Female Long Term Strategies
| gamy | Description | Masquerades as | Actual Relationship Orientation | Strategy failure | Typical Failure Point |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Mono | Woman chooses men who have traits of STR for LTR | Long Term Mate\Catch | Short Term Mate | Relationship incongruence | Realization relationship is not a LTR, and is unwillingly to accept this (being "pumped and dumped") |
| Mono | Woman adopts typical relationship norms | N\A | Long Term Mate | Incongruent to female arousal | Loss of female arousal to the male, after retention costs exceed trading costs. |
| Poly | Woman adopts atypical relationship norms | Long Term Mate | Short Term Mate | Zero trading costs | Loss of female arousal to the male, after retention costs exceed trading costs. |
Least suboptimal solution
| Description | Masquerades as | Actual Relationship Orientation | Strategy failure | Typical Failure Point |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Woman chooses man with STR orientation for LTR and relinquishes control | Long Term Relationship | Short Term Relationship | Mate volatility | Chooses male who feigns LTR interest(strategy failure), Evolution itself (System feature, can not be avoided) |
This is a higher risk paradoxical outcome. The only difference between the first "gambit" in the table above is she's choosing a man that would trend more towards "abusive." And rather than seeking to control volatility, she's looking for signs he ascribes to traditional male value systems.
So, despite his proclivity to be a warrior, rather than a diplomat, would you expect him to be in the delivery room? Would he still want to see his child graduate High School?
And that outcome would be greatly influenced by her ability to reject her desire to control out the very things that keep her invested in the relationship. These are the paradoxical issues hundreds of thousands of men deal with every year that are counseled by men across the world.
Naive men ponder idealistic concepts like "whether or not he's spending enough time taking her out on dates." While experienced men are literally tearing their wives clothes off if the situation demands it.
The catch 22 here being that a woman who is certain she needs the control and hands it over to her rational side is being sexually assaulted. The woman that's able to separate out "how it should be" and "how it is" goes along for the ride and thanks him for it.
The "Disney fantasy" in which a woman dates, and appreciates a prince charming, is constrained to women with zero or close to zero partners, in which the man she's dating matches her ideal composite male. That gives him plenty of room for error and allows him to operate in a way suboptimal for attraction.
That woman can both believe in the idea of love for loves sake, and have it. But few women get this, and the ones that do, can jeopardize that in one night away from home. A thousand mornings with flowers will be boiled down to "that was cute."
The ones that don't get that, don't get it because they can't reconcile prince charming with their arousal floor. This can be understood as the likely reason behind the inverse correlation between partner count and stable marital outcome. This form of "lifestyle inflation" is a linear ratcheting mechanism to prevent a woman from rationalizing away problematic attractions that jeopardize her on paper life.
Male Long Term Strategies
| gamy | Description | Masquerades as | Actual Relationship Orientation | Strategy failure | Typical Failure Point |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Mono | Male adopts traits of short term mates, but still is beholden to the long term outcome | Short Term Mate\Compromise\"Deal" | Long Term Mate | Relationship incongruency | Loss of female arousal to the male, after retention costs exceed trading costs. |
| Mono | Male adopts typical relationship norms | N\A | Long Term Mate | Incongruent to female arousal | Loss of female arousal to the male, after retention costs exceed trading costs. |
| Poly | Male adopts atypical relationship norms | Long Term Mate | Short Term Mate | Zero trading costs | Loss of female arousal to the male, after retention costs exceed trading costs. |
Least suboptimal solution
| Description | Masquerades as | Actual Relationship Orientation | Strategy failure | Typical Failure Point |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Male adopts traits of short term mates, only beholden to long term outcome while adventageous | Long Term Mate | Short Term Mate | Evolution Itself | Loss of female arousal to the male, after retention costs exceed trading costs. |
This is the conclusion to the least sub-optimal solution. Which is essentially a mirror to Briffault's law.
The female, not the male, determines all the conditions of the animal family. Where the female can derive no benefit from association with the male, no such association takes place. — Robert Briffault, The Mothers, Vol. I, p. 191
In this case, the male, determines his willingness to provision under the animal family. That is a shared duty of performance.
Men and women believe, or at least choose to believe, there is "a solution" denoting a way to change the world or balance the scales so "everyone wins." Yet the best we can do is select a system with the least number of negative effects, which maximizes outcomes for men, women & children while benefiting society at large by promoting values that can coexist within the socioeconomic system to the extent we can.
There is no way, we can't not hurt each other.
Boiling this down entirely, I believe only one true conflict divides men and women.
Women have a narrow view of arousing males, something around 20% of men and really the top 5% ultimately. And their attraction is fickle. If men were subject to the same, then only testosterone\estrogen would likely separate us.
This I believe is the actual programming of evolution itself. That very mechanism, is the way in which genes are improved, by always seeing the best, and being literally blinded, to inferior mates. Where evolution seeks to increase genetic quality and diversity.
If men were subject to this same constraint, all the claimed loyalty and male values would fly out the window as they saw the women in their lives the way that women see men who they no longer find arousing. Understand I've taken great effort to extend as much understanding to women as possible forming this hypothesis. And in doing so, been able to reconcile "good girls" and "bad girls." And dispute the idea that "men are more loyal."
This entire argument, that we frame as "men vs women" instead can be understood as "those who are easily aroused, against those who are not."
This is exacerbated by the fact that women settle for men, by design, since they select against features of arousal for a LTR. She trades to volatility of a more viscerally arousing mate, for an easily controlled man whom has nurturing characteristics.
And so what? So do most men.
But again, men are not constrained in the same way.
Regardless, to agree with Peterson here means a different thing.
It means to be a great physical specimen, who is narcissistic and arrogant, who walks the walk and talks the talk. Who is either unapologetically polygamous or at the very least has ultra high standards for his monogamous relationship but is capable of it. But likely, this serves as a cope, because the most viscerally arousing men simply have no interest in monogamy. There are viscerally attractive men, top 5% men with no interest. But now you're at a fraction of 5% of men.
To which many would argue that no family could survive such volatility, yet women "turn a blind eye" or "give a hall pass" to these men all the time. This just isn't something that most men are willing to understand or digest, much in the same way Dr. Jordan B. Peterson is willing to send a million men into the grinder rather than accept the message that men have learned in these forums through blood, sweat and toil. Few men in these forums started from a position of amorality. Few of them believed what it would take to save their marriages, how brutal courts would treat them or how duplicitous their wives would turn when their bedrooms turned cold.
These true monsters, balance "The Deal."
The Deal
Men sacrifice polygamy (male value), and embrace monogamy (female value). Women sacrifice hypergamy (female value) for loyalty (male value).
Men take ownership of women (male value), women take ownership of their children (female value), and under one household they share resources, the nuclear family(male value).
Since women are biologically unable to promise monogamy, the male rejects this part of "the deal" and trades her fidelity to him with provisioning. This creates a dual duty of performance. And only "a civilized monster" can pull this off.
This is the gritty stuff that men always let their ego convince them is unnecessary. And the source for the masquerade.
The short term mate schema ends when the effort to retain a mate becomes more important than changing them out. From this point on, no attempt of the male to masquerade as a short term mate, can ultimately be congruent, absent his actual willingness to leave and to upend the lives of everyone in his family strictly on his terms with an unlimited willingness to enforce them. Whether or not this is interpreted as "emotional abuse" or boundaries is up to the viewer. Put another way, a man's willingness to provide outside of the nuclear family while sexually active with his wife, will negatively influence "the game" and its outcome dramatically.
This is where a man is put into a situation where a woman wouldn't tolerate it. Where "being a real man" expects that he accept the deal that would otherwise be seen "as abuse." This, is a manifestation of our innate understanding of sexual competition and selection itself. A subconscious recognition of a woman's superior position as selector.
Put even another way, we could say that to extend this provisioning either overtly or through implication by accepting the legal framework after a relationship dissolution, the man acts as a mechanism to help transition a woman to the second evolutionary stage. As a stepping stool, all with the encouragement that he's being "a real man."
Men and women within a short term relationship operate under the Prisoner's Dilemma. Each relationship is a game unto itself. The game is post hoc rationalized as casual, but its purpose is to promote high quality genetic transfer. Women who "only engage in casual sex with men that would be good fathers" are the loudest, but are practicing atypical selection as per the dualistic studies. When raw arousal and excitement ends, the game ends and players move on. If they reconnect, it's an entirely new game. But the women here more or less understand these men "aren't the father type."
Men and women within a long term relationship operate under the Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma. The game is post hoc rationalized as romantic love, but its purpose is to find a male willing to invest in his offspring at the expense of raw arousal. Settling is stereotypically female, by design. As she is the one selecting and that she selects against features of raw arousal, such as ill-defined jawlines, or features like nurturing (which are negatively correlated to arousal). History is factored into the next "round" of play.
So from the very moment a woman pushes back to the man in the relationship (which is already sub-optimally aroused for arousal) and figuratively says "what are you going to do about it?" the relationship is in peril. At this very moment, essentially anything a man does from this point on will be wrong or abusive. This is why, from a game level perspective, being a "good man" is impossible. The minute she questions your willingness to pull the pin, the gambit is up, either you commit to being the one that cares the least or you demonstrate your subordination by negotiating with her, on her terms.
This is a manifestation of comfort breads contempt. The studies show a clear picture, short term mates in their very being are uncontrollable hyper-masculine men. Arrogant, narcissistic, with low features of nurturing, little future income potential etc. And these things are correlated to arousal. The very opposite of this, is to negotiate a mutual domestication with agreeable men. Men accept and promote this because, in their minds, it relieves them of the duty of performance. Within this context, I'm strictly defining this as a man's competition against other men.
They then shift their duty of performance to their mate and family although she does not recognize this sacrifice because she is not aroused by it. This is an "on paper" transaction that ever penny the male sinks into, he will lose if the duty of performance is jeopardized.
This is the exact point where men are locked into a double bind.
Want to wake up? Know that traits associated with good fathers, are negatively correlated to arousal. Stick that in your 1950s dad pipe and smoke it. Literally turned off by your good nature. Even if you think you're a "silverback patriarch." Which, you're still going to cupcake day at the zoo, buddy.
These paragraphs summarize the reason why dualistic strategy exists for a woman. Since these two types of men can not be assimilated into the same man unless she is wildly tolerant to risk and is willing to risk being left with children from a wild man who has no interest in sticking around. That is a tough gamble, and only the lowest status women typically make this gamble, though women should be leaning more towards this. It is again, paradoxical.
The willingness of a man to enter an honest, above the table, monogamous long term relationship de facto excludes him as a short term mate (in practice and definition), as comfort and high levels of arousal are often at odds for women, though the reverse is true for a LTR, which is why again, men in LTRs often function as useful idiots. Which is another failure point for long term relationships when amorally female, if the male discovers she isn't faithful.
Again, for the women making these choices, they make sense, to her, at the time. They're reasonable, rational choices. And they only have to finally "confront themselves" when they're in a marriage with children and they've lost attraction.
Then, the spark is gone. Then all the "good boy" points a man has accumulated instantly self immolate and the true value of being a good man becomes crystal clear.
Then it becomes real. Then the button up woman, with a degree who works 50 hours a week and is a mom too suddenly finds herself having moral conflicts she'd never had to confront before. Then she becomes the woman she never imagined herself to be, with a husband struggling to understand how his wife could be just like all those women he thought she could never be.
While everyone else either says he wasn't man enough, or that he "picked wrong."
Never accepting the possibility that they each played out their evolutionary script perfectly. And that it hadn't failed, but was just moving on to the second evolutionary stage.
So to any man that wants to be a family man, he must accept this first and foremost, before he starts lying to himself that he's just "responsibility and hard work away." Truly successful relationships are exceedingly rare, where both husband and wife are sexually satisfied through their years and the marriage functions as a useful mechanism for raising children. Though I would say men functioning as useful idiots, oblivious to their wives are common place.
And for the success cases, it probably would not be surprising that they trend more towards what is outlined in this hypothesis. Positive outcomes correlated to female arousal, negative outcomes correlated to female need for control over their mate.
Again, agreeing with Peterson here, men should be monsters, who chose to stick around for their children. NOT whom agree to be civil or domesticated.
The actual incongruence with Dr. Jordan B. Peterson & men who identify with him
This can require some "unpacking." I am on the one hand agreeing with Dr. Jordan B. Peterson here that "women want a civilized monster" or some variation of a monster that cares about her.
While fundamentally disagreeing with his overall message that men adopt traditional conservative viewpoints. The very man he understands and posits a woman would want, fundamentally conflicts with how he wants men to orient themselves in the world.
These very men are not generally going to trend on the side of family man types. However, unless she has without restraint let the dial move all the way over to "unrestrained psychopath type", more often than not, if she's fulfilling a feminine roll, he'll adopt a masculine roll and invest in his children.
I understand, in detail, where he's at through his journey in understanding this, and I do not expect Dr. Jordan B. Peterson to be able to reconcile how he wants things to be with his own knowledge base. Either a change of his message will be necessary, or a refute of this hypothesis.
Which so far, he softens with some degree of "work hard, be a civilized monster, and if she destroys it all, you probably missed some red flags or should have been a better man."
And the reason why this message resonates with men so widely, is because that is the fundamental place that men start from, in one degree or another. It's just a rebranding of the existing illusory truth. It sits as a nice piece of confirmation to the bias you hold, in the same way young men and women accept the idea that we are "polygamous."
Amorality is fundamental and necessary to this arrangement, or else it is subject to the same failure point.
If you came to him because you felt lost in the world and want a family, this isn't the solution to your problem. It's just a rebranding that will land you back in the same spot.
If the reason why you came to Peterson is to reclaim your masculinity, then you should look elsewhere. If you've come to him because you're just a mess and need to start getting back on your feet, then proceed with caution. If you're using him to mine some facts of the human condition, I believe there is no greater man on earth spitting this knowledge right now.
He is without a doubt, the world leader in understanding what makes us tick as people, and understands the individual better than anyone. But he suffers from the same belief system issue that nearly every guy had before his "unicorn" showed him she was just like "those other girls."
The collective knowledge of hundreds of thousands of men dictates that we do not know another way that men reach the next stage. And so, my concerns are that Dr. Jordan B. Peterson is unable to be moved from his position unless his family were to be put through peril. And even if, he'd likely externalize it on his work schedule, failing as a father or a lover, if the issue was instead arousal in say the introduction of a competing male while he was away.
Loss of female arousal to the male, after retention costs exceed trading costs.
Again, the male *must be willing to enforce his provisioning within the nuclear family, while sexually active with his wife, at all costs. Whether or not this man is moral or amoral in his choice of monogamy, extramarital partners etc, actually has a paradoxical outcome on marriage outcome anecdotally within these communities.
Put frankly, a civilized monster would cheat on his wife almost without pause, and yet the men you'd orient to the sexual marketplace, certainly would be draped in morality. Almost certainly, instead, what Dr. Jordan B. Peterson would advocate for would be to "masquerade as a short term mate." To ultimately still be a "real man." This is, not markedly different than the very same men he rightfully bemoans.
This well reasoned, seemingly articulate argument fails at a basic level, which is...
Dr. Peterson, we all tried that. Replacing a low-t, agreeable man who is within an egalitarian relationship with a man with a pair who sets boundaries will not change the fact that failure is a feature, not a flaw of evolution. We will never return to "enforced monogamy" and so only thing men can reply with is to "enforce provisioning."
Monogamy wasn't "legally enforced" it was just enforced de facto.
In a world where women offer freely what was once coveted, this is a fair trade.
And that... is the birth of the real monster. That realization, that women do not accept this compromise, because they can't, is the birth of amorality.
Ultimately, men aren't entitled to a woman's "love" (arousal) and men need to be willing to defend themselves against provisioning once the gig is up, at any and all costs.
I have given you every bit of understanding you need in this post. DO NOT EVER promise to provision outside of the nuclear family, while she is sexually active with you. You have your word, and your balls, don't break them for anyone. If she doesn't understand you, if you don't believe this deep within yourself, if this is not 100.00% congruent to you, then you are not oriented to deal with the world. If you are not capable of enforcing this, work on yourself until you understand this. It is the only thing you need to understand. Not the myriad of legal frameworks, PUA gimmicks, TPR theory etc. Just learn what separates you from the guy you wouldn't talk shit to in the bar. What separates you as men, defines the requisite capability of a man who wants to start a family to protect himself against female nature.
To reject de facto provisioning after the end of a relationship creates her own "duty of performance." Stop ascribing to ideas of women worshipping good men, when they just tolerate them. Women who are not fighting the battle with themselves will never leave a man who is satisfying her in bed, and helping to raise children, even if he does monstrous things.
Again, I agree with Peterson, but only in the way he's not willing to understand accept the very thing he's selling us. We can't in any way claim he "discovered this by accident" or "he's right, but for the wrong reason." Given his level of involvement at a clinical level.
He knows this, he just chooses to believe what he wants to be true, what he chooses to see as the solution. He wants to believe like nearly every man here, that women will respond to "the compromise" and accept the good man with an edge, and they will, until evolution steps in.
Then all the "good boy" points are invalidated, and guys land here look for answers. And they, like Peterson, will push back that we "aren't real men" but instead "little boys who are exploiting women."
Almost none of us started from the position of amorality.
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson, I politely ask that you refrain from pushing the very narrative that has destroyed a generation of men already. There are distinct male orientations and institutional changes (that do not involve "forced monogamy") that can change that, but right now, you are hurting, not helping men in this domain while helping them still find purpose and meaning in their increasingly meaningless lives.
Please, refrain from pushing this narrative until you are willing to have someone challenge you on it. You are equipped to understand this and change the world, if you choose, but you are having an existential conflict where your very morality is up against the truths you've grappled with for 20 years.
You want the men you're talking to, most of whom are in the 50th percentile, to perform to the 95% percentile, and if they fail at that, lay blame at their feet. Which isn't wrong in a literal sense, but doesn't make sense from a pragmatic perspective.
Making men own their lives is important. Marching them into the grinder is reprehensible.

[deleted] 7y ago
You make a very articulate rational for your argument which I honestly commend you for. However, even for a near perfect logic system like a computer, if the input and premises are wrong, no matter how elaborate the process is the conclusion or output is equally wrong. There is no scientific of any reliable basis for the three paradoxes which you mention at all. And here I challenge you to cite a single scientific paper for this happiness in marriage corelates with desire of women of cheat.
EscapeTheGoat 7y ago
Dude I mean. Just take from his teachings that's useful and leave the rest. He's not RP. He never will be because he's too conservative. He is right though that single mothers are shitty at raising children; that much we know for sure.
StudntRdyTeachrApear 7y ago
As if I needed another reason to seriously reconsider my third serious relationship...
This resonates with me. I've made it to seven years, with a woman I settled for, and she couldn't even withstand nature's clock. For me to think it's going to be any different with my current young, blonde, gf with huge tits is mostly just my own ego. It might have to do with the fact that this one is mentally stable and with no serious past, or is that really just me tricking myself into believing that a virtuous life will lead to long term rewards from my woman, when I know deep down it won't, so I lie about the circumstances having any relevancy at all?
Currently still awake laying on the couch while my gf is asleep in bed peacefully, pondering taking the black pill to LTRs for good.
MilkMoney111 7y ago
Don't worry about it my man. Just stay on top of your game, be ready to let go at a moments notice, and keep things moving.
To make you feel better I would recommend flirting with other women. You don't have to do anything with them. But knowing you still "got it" and keeping that abundance mentality will keep you sane and not too worried your girl will inevitably fuck it all up.
Just my two cents and what has worked for me in handling failed LTR's. YMMV
18042369 7y ago
Hey I saw sadomasochrists post on the JBP reddit and wrote this response:
I'm a guy. I have read this essay by sadomasochrist. I've thought about what you have written. I'm not North American but our UK derived laws and culture are comparable, tho different. And I have respect for TRP as I have had a good friend done over in a divorce the same way as they report.
So from an evo-bio perspective, our mate choice evolved in smallish hunter gatherer groups which shared a common language. I expect our sexual dynamics worked fine in that context. I expect we have also subsequently adapted somewhat to the larger groupings that came with settled (agri)culture. That is, I presume the most powerful, (village "bigman", chief, king, etc) assembled/accumulated harems or such like, but over time the societies that persisted were ones where most males and females were more or less monogamous, simply because these societies were the ones that were stable for long enough to exert some evolutionary selective pressure (over say 1000 years as there is good genetic evidence to show this is plenty of time). As an aside this suggests some 'races' might be somewhat adapted to a settled village scale culture (East Asian, anyone?)
For evolution to occur, these more or less monogamous relationships would need to be more fecund than less stable ones. What is fecundity? Intutively, it is having the most grandchildren. In 'village' culture I suspect that those that stay in a committed relationship ("married") have the most successful grandchildren (and great grandchildren etc). That is, while they may not have the most kids or grandkids, long term success probably favors survival and fecundity of their great great grandchildren etc. I haven't looked for papers on this but I presume historical records are available to test it. (I understand illegitimacy rates of village societies are well under 5%, but this may be high enough to offset evo pressure towards monogamy).
We now live in a far more diverse and hugely expanded society that developed only recently, and to which we are probably poorly adapted. That we can do this is miraculous (as JBP has said) and says something about our adaptive flexibility of mind.
The question now is, what is fecundity in our society? If we choose to behave as if this society will persist into evo time, then those that do best in it need to be the most fecund, so that humanity adapts to the society we have created (be assured, culture drives evolution!).
My impression is that woman who are strongly hypergamous (and TRP men that paired up with them) are selected against because children of "broken homes" have not done as well in adulthood as those from "whole" families (let's not get distracted by what whole families are).
My other impression is that the expression of hypergamy is strongest at the lower levels of society (call it working class) because working "married" woman at that level are most exposed to males of higher status and most susceptible to the greater level of (or security of) resourcing that those males might provide.
As such, I'm suggesting that adaption to our society will be driven by 'working class' guys who keep their girl and grow old with their grandkids. So bucko, improve yourself, impress the girls, and choose well!
For TRP guys: Like JBP I don't subscribe to the alpha fxcks-beta bucks dichotomy version of hypergamy. Yes it happens though I think women are mostly more subtle than that. They need both (a bit of 'dangerousness' in a male is kind of reassuring to a female but I have found they respond more to the hierarchies that men create among themselves (male 'bosses' and team 'captains' really do feel sexy to females)). And I didn't marry my 'first' love, I married at 35 after I had figured a few things out. Twentythree years later still going strong, kids looking good. Maybe, my text above is just a rationalisation of how I have lived my life!
As an aside, it looks to me like USA culture is getting pretty tyrannical as mobility between classes is closing down, which might be pretty demotivating to guys.
EdmondDaunts 7y ago
The issue of today is as Charlie Munger would say, about incentives. Human nature is primarily about incentives. Maslows pyramid is built on that.
Western societies currently and for some time have been incentivising behaviour over and above aspects like hypergamy. Hypergamy exists, great. So what?
Men are increasingly lacking or being punished for having contingency. Contingency in income and attitude. So as has been detailed in posts in TRP the extra challenge of dealing with courts or society taking women’s groups more seriously in some aspects than they should, leads to the shitshow.
We are experienxing the decline as per the predator-prey attractor.
So listen to however tou want. Just keep building contingency.
donpek 7y ago
Wait, I don't think I get what "DO NOT EVER promise to provision outside of the nuclear family, while she is sexually active with you" actually means. Some questions spring to mind:
What does this even mean?
Why would I ever provide to anyone who's not a part of my family?
So if she stops being sexually active with me, then I can promise some other woman to provide for her?
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reecewagner 7y ago
Perhaps (shocker), no one person is 100% "right" about everything. Anyone idolizing JBP is as stupid as anyone idolizing Amanda Bynes.
perplexedm 7y ago
JP is nothing but a sad grappling to save self respect which drowned in feminutism. I'll rather thank feminism, just like how you thank satan for showing how bad his side is.
They exposed their animalistic behavior already and have shown how wild it can be. Just how a tiger never forgets taste of blood and how prey animals will be cautious at shadows of hunter, men with self awareness are going be stoic forever.
Paste is out of the tube for gender politics now, do what you want with it.
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Kobinks 7y ago
I think the bigger question is does it really matter if anyone’s right?
Fuck JP Fuck SJW’s Fuck Everyone
The only thing you can do is focus on yourself and be selfish.
Society’s fucked no matter what, would people rather waste their time trying to white knight it or just enjoy the decline and profit off it?
whitesocks2000 7y ago
Agreed, I don’t think older men worry about this shit very much. I hang around quite a few men in there 60s and 70s they are really beyond worrying about women. My one friend is 67 he says he has to take a viagra to jack off. He likes golf, fishing, cigars, poker and scotch and really seems to give zero fucks about pussy.
FeelTheBernieSanderz 7y ago
red pill should be amoral but your opinion is so against natural law it's disturbing. i'm not opposed to you enjoying your life as you see fit, but I do worry about immoral actions in pursuit of selfishness being normalized in the community.
Koryphae_ 7y ago
Yeah but I can understand his point of view as well, he would rather opt out from the discussion rather than endlessly theory-craft and whine, about a subject he is not an expert in, without taking any action.
Kobinks 7y ago
Morality is completely subjective, I don’t deem putting yourself first an immoral action, it’s a natural instinct and a sound choice for the individual.
What exactly is your concern?
wayneinthegame 7y ago
He's not wrong though. He's got Nietzsche and Rand supporting him on this comment, you guys sure you want to downvote it to Hell?
kellykebab 7y ago
Prisoner's dilemma: if everyone acts in their own interest, we are worse off than if we had worked towards the common good
Kobinks 7y ago
Everyone won’t though, which is why i will.
I’m not suggesting everyone turn their back on society, I’m merely saying for your own happiness the select few should put themselves first.
I pay my taxes and I contribute as a consumer within the economic market, that’s the extent of my contribution.
What I’m not going to do is try and change the world unless it benefits me, take charity for example
Person A Has 20k left at the end of the year, they decide to donate it to their old college (They still have a mortgage)
Person B Has 20k left at the end of the year, pays off extra on his mortgage
Is charity the more beneficial option to society? Of course it is
Does being 22 and fully owning my own home with no mortgage feel better? Yeah man, feels fucking great
Example 2
Person A; Argues with SJW’s on the internet, goes to rallies and dedicates loads of time worrying about all wrongs in the world
Person B; Goes to the gym instead and is a narcisstic little cunt about his abs
Is person A making a beneficial difference? Maybe, Maybe not, I’m not fussed either way
Does looking at your gains in a full body mirror like a faggit feel good? Yeah man, feels fucking great
wayneinthegame 7y ago
You guys trying to make him into a psychopath but here's the kicker:
If everyone was like him and minded their own business, then society would be full of happy, productive, self-actualized human beings.
Nashboy45 7y ago
This sounds like JP’s point though. We are far too stupid to be involving ourselves in how to make society good. We should be focusing on ourselves and and what we care about before we even try.
Kobinks 7y ago
Exactly my point...
Congratulations on being the only non sheep that can read in the entire thread.
FeelTheBernieSanderz 7y ago
Well your initial post wasn't nuanced, so you sound like a guy who would have no problem with theft or violence (if you could get away with it) for selfish means. Obviously someone who has actualised these ideas can never admit it, I understand that.
Jordan Peterson has helped thousands of individuals get their life together (including myself). He advocates knowledge, self-discovery and research - not blind adherence to his words. He is a moral net positive to the world yet you dismiss him in the same line as SJW's of whom are immoral and push mistruth.
Kobinks 7y ago
This is where we have a misunderstanding.
I promote a philosophy of Individual > Society
This is not to say I lack a moral compass, to label someone as likely a criminal purely on the basis they disagree with you is in line with far left thinking.
To clarify, when I wrote my first post my point was that this “war” isn’t something any of us can solve no matter how many arguements people have.
Thus it’s better to spend your time and effort working on yourself rather than waste time arguing with SJW’s and writing essays on Peterson.
As to Peterson himself, I have no inherent problem with him, he has some good points and conveys them rationally but in the grand scheme of things I personally don’t think it matters. It’s a ripple in the oceon.
However to reiterate my stance of “Selfishness” Peterson advocates forced manogamy and would like to see a shift from the top 10/20% of men getting the majority of the women as mates, this is a prime example of something that may benefit society as a whole but would negatively affect me.
Society isn’t my problem, I’m just here to enjoy the decline.
wayneinthegame 7y ago
Crime is not a good proposition for the the self-interested, intelligent man because he understands the risk involved in getting caught and the long term effects it has on character and his reputation in society. Crime doesn't pay.
wayneinthegame 7y ago
Crime is not a good proposition for the the self-interested, intelligent man because he understands the risk involved in getting caught and the long term effects it has on character and his reputation in society. Crime doesn't pay.
FeelTheBernieSanderz 7y ago
Tell that to the Wall St bankers...
Crime does pay if you're well connected. No need to delude yourself with blue pill catchphrases.
wayneinthegame 7y ago
Tell that to the Enron execs. By writing them a letter in prison.
[deleted] 7y ago
He only fucked one chick, surprised he got to his level of awareness to be honest.
teamjkforawhile 7y ago
I read the whole thing, it's a masterpiece. I believe Rollo has also talked about this. Found it.
https://therationalmale.com/tag/jordan-b-peterson/
Sonos 7y ago
JBP is speaking from a position where he is in a loving relationship with his wife.
I dont think he knows any better.
Hyper_Sonik 7y ago
I think what you are trying to say is that women need to be held accountable.
max_peenor 7y ago
Why attempt the impossible?
BurnoutRS 7y ago
So long as our conscious, intelligient mind exists to observe our base, instinctual, animalistic tendancies, therein will lie a power struggle that no man is free from.
We must remain vigilant so that we can maintain a proper balance between the two. That was the intent of monogamy inthe first place but we've come to a point where that system cannot work. I fucking love Peterson, he talks about a lot of great shit and has introduced me to things I might never have learned otherwise but the only good he does with the enforced monogamy talk is to introduce the concept so people might become more aware of how we've strayed from the old system. Often we cant truly see what we had until its gone,for better or for worse. So we take the insight from why monogamy worked, apply it to why its not working now and adapt a new system.
in the time when a young woman likely married her first sexual partner, chemically, mentally ,spiritually, etc. he was her only source of dick. By which I mean dick as the abstract concept representing everything a man may present to a woman througb a monogamous relationship through sex and protection etc. And since we had systems in place to keep it so and prevent women from riding the cock carousel, they had a much easier time remaining faithful
We cant do that at all when girls are having sex as early as 12 and can potentially have multiple sexual partners before theyre even legally allowed to drive. Its damaged good man, we gotta face facts. Honestly as much as I love the dream of returning to that safe orderly world its just a dream and I'd way rather have access to a wide variety of women to fuck as I continue to live my life. Will I be sacrificing my childrens future? Or will I live long enough to download my consciousness into an android and not give a fuck about progeny? or whatever the future may bring.
BoogieorBust 7y ago
Thank you for this. I would say though that women need men less is only true if the women is mentally healthy. Few are.
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JamesSkepp 7y ago
If it's really an archetype then if a man is represented by number 1, shouldn't the woman be represented by number 0.7?
Bear-With-Bit 7y ago
It's 0.78, you misogynist!
wayneinthegame 7y ago
GLO laying down the esoteric principles! JBP doesn't seem like he backs down from hard truths. And I trust his scholorship and intellectual integrity more than yours, no offense.
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LiveAFTSOV 7y ago
What if he understands it so well that he brings runes of his current emotions and only when he overcomes his depression will he relinquish the runes.
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LiveAFTSOV 7y ago
I ask the same question to christians who carry the cross.
I know of people who've become so obsessed with a certain occurrence in life they surround themselves of paraphernalia of that situation until they finally let go of those emotions and relinquish the possessions
Im being a devil's advocate, maybe he knows what they mean and keeps them as a reflection of his current emotional state.
People do this through the clothing they wear
wayneinthegame 7y ago
You don't think Peterson, a Jungian, has studied esoteric writings? Bitch, please.
His views on communism are pretty clear.
Jung said those with the greatest capacity for understanding suffer the most.
If I want a synopsis of western thought, I'll listen to JBP. If I want to dive deep into symbolism, I'll read Jung. If I want a personal trainer and a badass Alpha sweatshirt, I'll dm you.
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BlackCraneStoic 7y ago
The same group that owns Hollyweird and utilizes it as a platform to subvert Western values I'm guessing. The same group that created a social structure to ostracize anyone calling out their deeds by labeling them an anti"said group"?
wayneinthegame 7y ago
Oh, I do. But your assuming he has biases in favor of that group that are strong enough for him to dismiss Jung. I doubt he would let that blind him in his search for truth. Maybe your own biases are distorting your view?
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puredemo 7y ago
lol, you never fail to surprise me. You have your own forum or something somewhere..?
karpathian 7y ago
Pretty sure he sorta does, he does contribute a LOT in one called TheRedPill or something.
puredemo 7y ago
Miss me with that reddit shit
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Rapante 7y ago
Depends on how you define weak. Primary selectors for women were born in a time when we were living in caves and fighting sawtooth tigers. One can argue that in today's society other features that are not necessarily attractive (intelligence) determine a society's success to a large extent.
You can criticize the core family unit as uncompetitive from an evolutionary standpoint, but it brings great stability and prosperity. The darwinian approach you advertise sows chaos and societal decline. We can see this in the bad outcomes of single motherhood.
Ganaria_Gente 7y ago
Despite my personal admiration for JBPs advocacy for free speech, intellectualism, and academic freedom and Science, he's wrong on alot of things
One of those things is he's so pro marriage
Dude.... That ship has sailed. As Vasily said, marriage 1.0 is dead in the West
Magnum256 7y ago
That's a really good point. I suppose evolutionarily speaking, it would be prudent for "The Best Man On Earth" to impregnate every fertile woman alive. Makes the Praeto Principle that much more logical beyond just the obvious.
I think Peterson approaches most arguments from the position of a psychologist though, and he has stated that he's a clinician, so likely deals with a huge number of very depressed young men on a regular basis. It's likely that the majority of these depressed young men are not successful romantically or sexually which probably impacts why Peterson sees widespread monogamy as a "good fix" for these types of people, in otherwords what he's saying is partly rooted in compassion for his patients, and to be fair he does advocate "getting your shit together" as a good approach to self-betterment as well.
JamesSkepp 7y ago
Yes.
And that "order out of chaos" is artificial in nature, it's not an philosophical ideal that will hold eternally. It's more like building sand castles from something more resistant than sand. It still erodes, just slower.
Exactly. The default state is a form of chaos (at best controlled by the in-group altruism in non m-f context), b/c no amount of order/civilsation/rules/moral highground will make the women select a mate she's not attracted to. It's always strength/advantage over others, in one form or another.
CRISPR makes this irrelevant. Designer babies are going to be a norm like the stupid designer names in ghetthos. While La'keesha has a stupid name, she has looks literally designed after Naomi Campbell.
ManguZa 7y ago
Perterson made a point about children. It's much better for children to have a mother & a father to take care for then during long time (a t least 15 years). So evolution will select this features.
sadomasochrist 7y ago
Evolution doesn't care about any of that shit.
Evolution is subconscious.
KyfhoMyoba 7y ago
He missed the point that paternal investment (past age 3 or so) is wa-a-a-a-a-y more important than maternal investment. And it follows that paternals ain't gone invest without assured paternity (hint: culturally enforced monogamy)
conflagratorX 7y ago
Evolution is lagging behind modern civilization. Physical strength is no longer required to survive. To be succesful, intelligence (both traditional and emotional) is much more desirable trait. But evolution hasn't catch up yet - that's why big muscles are more attractive than big IQ. And that's why women have dual mating strategy: one selects partners based on physical attractiveness (think bartender Chad) and one selects people who are successful in modern world (think dentist Billy). One strategy is based on pure emotions and primal instict, other one is more rational and forward thinking.
I don't think women are doing great service to humankind by basing only on their pure instincs.
34380 7y ago
Intelligence is desirable? Irrelevant.
Look at who is having more kids, more grandkids.
AlexanderTheBread 7y ago
Actually, big IQ is selected for, just not in the way you think. Your brain requires a lot of power to navigate a social world properly. The ability to think about the way someone thinks you think about them is a higher order thought pattern that is as difficult as any math or physics one may encounter. It's just of a different flavor. So this sort of "social intelligence" is selected for. I bet if you take one such socially intelligent person and start teaching them more and more advanced topics in science, they'll be able to learn faster.
In other words, a person with higher IQ could learn to navigate the social world much better than a low IQ person, but the higher IQ person tends to spend those points on narrower, nonsocial interests like math, physics, computer science etc.
sadomasochrist 7y ago
The word is competency from the studies. Raw IQ is selected against. I posit vanity is inefficient.
Mr-Ed209 7y ago
This is naive nihilist bullshit.
Evolutionary biology based on multiple millennia doesn't give a shit about modern social conventions from the last few hundreds of years.
Except it does.. Societies that did not conform to a mostly monogamous set up failed. They failed to raise enough children on mass to propagate new generations. Monogamy does not exist because it is 'nice' to men who can't get laid. It's because societies that don't follow that set up die.
Demonspawn 7y ago
Some people forget that Darwinism works on a social as well as an individual scale.
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Mr-Ed209 7y ago
Failed by what metric? - That they don't exist anymore and societies that moved from a conventional monogamy set up to polygamy were in ruin within 3 generations.
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KyfhoMyoba 7y ago
How about this metric:
number of descendants
Does that work for you?
[deleted] 7y ago
And something to be avoided.
What makes you think you're strong enough to survive a chaotic world?
JamesSkepp 7y ago
That's fear talking.
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[deleted] 7y ago
Because someone like me is going to stab you in your sleep and take all your stuff.
It's no coincidence that 99.99% of human advancement has happened in the "civilised" part of our time on this Earth.
Order from chaos leads to prosperity.
Your mistake appears to be viewing the excesses of prosperity as a natural result of order, therefore assuming that order = decadence.
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[deleted] 7y ago
That's my point, are you agree with me or arguing against yourself?
Antibiotics so a minor wound doesn't kill you. The toilet paper you wipe your mouth with, the computer/phone your using to read this.
You literally just did call them prosperous
Yes, we are Animals. But unlike the rest of the animals we have a brain that is comically more intelligent then animals. Which we have used to soften the brutality of nature.
At it's most regressive, any living thing creates order from chaos. Entropy is death. Life itself is a temporary respite from entropy.
That's why you're not the strongest. Life has worked this out hundreds of millions of years ago. Animals don't fight their own species to the death. They engage in ritual combat.
tofu889 7y ago
"We should be out hunting, having sex, having multiple children with multiple women, disciplining children properly, fighting, etc."
The minute some group in that proposed society decides to organize themselves in a more civilized manner (division of labor, efficient non-violent trade systems, etc) they will be more successful technologically and hence more powerful. They will out-compete and suppress those who still wish to be brutes.
A society that has a large contingent of beta drones efficiently pumping out technological advancement will swiftly defeat any horde or brutes out there "hunting, fucking and fighting" and therefore what you propose is not sustainable or even possible, and is why society is the way it is.
phoenix335 7y ago
Uncomfortably long text that conflates what is with what should be.
One is orthodox TRP as it was originally developed, as the antidote to sexual frustration and relationship worries of the man in a Disney and feminism influenced egalitarian and promiscuous West. It was and it is an indispensable set of information to young men who, raised in femist and egalitarian values, struggle hard to reconcile these with the failures they experience in acquiring a suitable mate or holding their position in a relationship. TRP however is focused on that particular goal, freeing a young man from the frustration of not getting access to mates and therefore enabling them to pursue other goals while the hormonal pressure is being taken care of. Bedding women may be very important and look like it is the end all be all to a young men that doesn't get any, yet bedding women is hardly a life fulfilling endeavor for grown and older man.
TRP has few descriptions of a situation after reaching that goal of bedding a sufficient number of mates and is more concerned with the how to do so. It is the football coach or older sibling who tells the young man how to win a lot of games, motivate him and build him up.
JBP on the other hand is the wise grandpa that enables men to discover why they're living and how to fulfill someone on a spiritual level after the getting laid part is achieved and has become normal, filling the commandment of "hold frame indefinitely".
alfredosauce85 7y ago
Exactly. The JBP advice in addition, is the advice of the ages, the advice that was always relevant across cultures well before the current Disney/Feminist gynocentry took over, and will become relevant again, if the current frame work collapses, and religion returns as the cement that keeps everyone in check.
Edit: The need for The Red Pill today is a symptom of the modern times. The Red Pill was always impeded in a culture's pshyche and religious stories. People knew how to behave and what discourage as a society, even if the original reason as to why a culture adopted certain values were forgotten, the culture adhered to the stories that contained the original red pill knowledge.
[deleted] 7y ago
Agreed, bedding women is fun at first. It will get old and is definitely not fulfilling long term. However I do believe it is something every man should experience it to an extent. I personally think I took it a bit to far in my early 20s and was reckless. I’m just glad I haven’t had any long term repercussions from it.
RedDespair 7y ago
This is what JP fails to understand.
We are living in a unprecedented gender sexual freedom where war is taking place. We are losing.
Out of this chaos, a sergeant by the name Dr. Jordan Peterson has emerged giving promises and hope based on honor and hard work.
Only to send all those young men to their deaths.
He fails to acknowledge that war
FinancierGuru 7y ago
How many times have you heard this before...work hard, be faithful...and when everything falls apart IT IS YOU who's at fault. JB Peterson is operating out of the history of his generation, he is outdated. He is popular because he supports patriarchy, but that's another pipe dream.
scissor_me_timbers00 7y ago
Yeah he’s pretty purple pill. He understands some red pill insights but he’s still thinking in terms of the 20th century norms regarding the mating market. He probably knows it’s changing but may not be savvy to the whole slew of downstream effects.
GainzdalfTheWhey 7y ago
Oh he's savvy, he probably know that the full extent of redpill, he maintains different views because he puts the society health and preservation of optimal family and child upbringing circumstances.
noPTSDformePlease 7y ago
The only difference between Peterson And this sub is that Peterson is trying to reverse the fall of civilization and this sub is trying to enjoy the collapse.
Same evidence. Same theory. Different plans of action.
destraht 7y ago
You forgot me!! I spend a fair amount of my time in upstart places. Well, ... Ukraine didn't work out so well but other than that it still stands.
Thus, far and wide, they migrate either to the Goths or to the Bagaudae, or to other barbarians everywhere in power; yet they do not repent of having migrated. They prefer to live as freemen under an outward form of captivity, than as captives under the appearance of liberty. Therefore, the name of Roman citizens, at one time not only greatly valued, but dearly bought, is now repudiated and fled from, and it is almost considered not only base, but even deserving of abhorrence.
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Sugarleaps 7y ago
Not saying you should or shouldn't, but what the poster above said is the antithesis to Peterson's message. Watching civilisation burn, having fun while you can, is contributing to its collapse.
We are not bystandards to civilization, we are it's creators.
Meisner1 7y ago
And i think that is totally fine. Individuality.
Galbert123 7y ago
An astute conclusion.
six-bible 7y ago
This was a long diatribe that was hard to unpack. You can probably boil it down to one paragraph of about 6 sentences if you applied the Feyman technique and made it comprehensible to a 5 year old. As it stands I'm a fairly well-educated man, and I can barely follow at some points.
Your main points seem to be -- one, the obvious fact that women are far more selective (for sex) then men (which explains much of dating behavior) - and only go for the top 20% of men roughly if not even higher. Men, on the other hand, have lower standards for a good romp in the hay, but higher standards for a relationship/ wife (this probably has more to do with the lack of biological clock).
Then your main "novel" point ... at least in my view ... that really after 5-7 years, if not sooner, a woman will become "bored" with her familiar, boring ass, domesticated husband. She will find a new "alpha badass" to go fuck after divorcing his sappy ass.
I'm not sure if that is ironclad law or always happens. Assuming it does, then yes, any Long-Term monogamous relationship is doomed to fail. Because the woman loses interest. That's not that complicated of a point to make.
What "strategy" a male should pursue -- and if the mating dynamics as you explained them are actually true -- could probably fill an entire library. Suffice to say, some men make it work (marriage) - maybe even without sexual attraction.
sadomasochrist 7y ago
Replying to thank you for reference to the Feyman technique. However, if you're an "educated man" this is a light read. On top of that, I'm targeting the types that are defending JP the hardest. I wrote, as if, I was writing to him.
And even then, I'd expect him to ask for clarification. But the entire debate is there, to be read.
Anything you'd want to know, in terms of why his viewpoint is wrong, and that you shouldn't treat it as actionable is there. Otherwise you get 200 "what about this?" replies, and then it's a discussion, not a piece of writing.
I also appreciate your input on the "time bomb." This is, I think, more mainstream knowledge that a lot of people acknowledge, so much so it was a punchline in Rick & Morty about marriage.
You can read up about declining levels of oxytocin, dopamine, serotonin etc in LTRs. This is nature's way to achieve the 2nd part of its mission.
Lastly, the reason I write this way, is because if I were to write what you think would be preferable...
It would read even worse. (IMO)
Basically I have to choose between manifesto, white paper, academic\research, hit piece etc.
And even if all this weren't enough for the challenge of this write, I'm essentially trying to demolish a viewpoint that is widely held by median men, formulated and articulated from a guy with a 150iq.
If I had time to waste I would certainly try a rewrite using his technique. So either way, I appreciate the input. I will look to his writing for inspiration.
TrueFacets 7y ago
This was one of the best pieces on trp in a long time! Thank you!
Poster before me said ur main point was 5-7 years in women get bored.
I read your main point as that it is wise to adopt the: Least suboptimal solution. Basically adapt short term traits, and "play" long term game but be ready at any time to completely remove provisioning and/or leave entirely.
One question remains though, what to do if you have kids ?
At this point I think I can hand oneitis and dump the bitch if she acts out but what to do if we have kids already and I want them to do well ?
I completely agree with your assessment of peterson, one can never completely give his "energy" to a marriage or LTR. If the women is only slightly attractive, a few years in there will always be the potential for trouble. Meaning the man wins only if he has other options or is prepared for it, one needs to be at least mentally and financially ready to remove all provisioning, dump her and move on. This makes marriage and the holy 1man, 1women obsolete. And therefore Peterson is wrong.
KyfhoMyoba 7y ago
I have been in conversation with a pastor of a very conservative church. Attempting to red pill this dude has been harder than I thought. These people believe in "Biblical male headship" and it's still an uphill battle.
I think that I found the chink in his BP armor.
Two weeks ago I told him to have his wife ask a dozen women in his church this question: "What 2 or 3 attributes / qualities / behaviors / characteristics make a man sexy? We're talking shred-the-sheets, lose-my-marriage, go-to-jail kind of sexy?" and to note briefly the responses.
Last week I told him (not her) to ask those same women what qualities / behaviors / attributes / characteristics make for the perfect husband.
This week we will be comparing the two lists. Before he shows them to me, I will wager any amount he chooses that there are no, zero, zilch, nada, bupkiss, null set of wrods that are in both lists.
IOW
HUSBANDS ARE NOT SEXY
whatsthisgarg 7y ago
I hope you're going to make a post about it.
And I'm also wondering if this is one of those churches that did a "have sex every day for a month to save your marriage" thing. It was a real fad for a while about 10 years ago, got very positive responses from both the men and the women, and then disappeared from the MSM. I suspect the BP men got complacent and the women got bored, and there was no lasting effect.
btw I've been enjoying your user name for a long time. At first I thought it was an Egyptian king or something, then I figured it out, just because my brain is wired to act like that. (maybe I've already told you that?)
KyfhoMyoba 7y ago
There was nothing in the women's "sexy" list that is not already known and well discussed on this sub.
I don't think that this church is that open about sex.
If you've figured it out, you'll be the first!
And I was right. Dude's got a lot to chew on - 'dem Red Pills can be ha-a-a-a-rd to gets yove teef into. An' deys bitter as fuck, too, yo! BWAAAAA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
whatsthisgarg 7y ago
It came to me all of a sudden about the fifth time I saw it. Every single letter, even the A.
Like I said, that's my attitude toward the world. "Don't fuck with my shit."
KyfhoMyoba 7y ago
Well, I have indicated on various subs that I am a deontological Rothbardian Libertarian anarcho-capitalist. And if you've read Heinlien, you've got half of it.
alvlear 7y ago
Jordan Peterson understands the dualistic nature of hypergamy that we discuss here. The most recent episode on Joe Rogan #1139 proves this. This guy knows that many women settle for betas and then cuck them. This is the darkest side of the redpill, and I haven't heard anyone else in the mainstream say this until now.
He clearly says his solution is not the best for the men or the women, but for the children. It is for the maintenance of society. Spinning plates forever does not a society maintain. TRP does not have a solution for maintaining society. I like society. I like internal combustion engines and penicillin. I do not agree with Jack Donovan's screed to dissolve society back into warring gangs just because this is what our genetic makeup is primed for.
EumenesOfEfa 7y ago
How is having a cheating whore of a mom and a clueless cuck dad any good for the children?
ex_addict_bro 7y ago
I thought it was money.
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duntoon 7y ago
Yep I agree. This is a ridiculous level of over-analysis. If you have the idle time to spend hours debating the nuances of JP vs TRP, you're not busy enough in your life.
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it_takes_the_redpill 7y ago
And tables yo. Don't forget the tables.
crabshaped 7y ago
Lookin forard to your next post.
And pls include the charts because I’m a dumb
Shadowthrice 7y ago
Don't read or think too much; it's dangerous.
crabshaped 7y ago
It certainly can be. Not all the information out there is actually relevant to your life.
I_am_Jax_account 7y ago
You sir are 100% right in stating that he says things which he knows are not true because the things he knows to be true contradict his morality and he chooses his morality over the truth. He knows his understanding of hypergamy cannot be reconciled with his tradcon family morality but chooses to lay the destruction of men out as a sacrifice to that hypergamy by promoting marriage in spite of what he knows. And yes, as you said, he puts the future blame of dissolved relationships at the feet of men who "should have paid more attention".
Tie5o11 7y ago
I am interested how you found your was inside of JP's head and can state with certainty what he knows and does not know?
I_am_Jax_account 7y ago
Because he is too intelligent to understand hypergamy without understanding the implications that it carries with it such as "hypergamy, by virtue of existing, could possibly ruin marriages and, in fact, may be a good reason to not enter into a contractual marriage". He's simply too smart to hold onto "marriage is best" and "hypergamy exists" simultaneously without ever discussing how the two concepts might interact. Add a a side dish of "if a breakup happens the man probably wasn't paying attention" and you have obvious willful blindness.
red_philosopher 7y ago
This is a fantastic post. Well written and analytical.
Shadowthrice 7y ago
It's clear you've put some thought into this. If you're hoping for a reply from the man, I hope you have also contacted him directly.
ShadyMahFuggah 7y ago
The truth, naked for all to see. So naked, that even people who frequent this sub are having trouble accepting it.
buddahbusted 7y ago
I just met a PhD in sociology who teaches gender courses that had never heard of the red pill. Thank you for this.
csqr 7y ago
This is an odd critique, not very well thought through, here's why:
sadomasochrist 7y ago
> The core of his message is tradcon simply...
No. It's not simply anything. He wants men to be high betas, get married and when divorce falls on their feet, blame them. We already have a place for that racket, it's called MRP.
> is less of a downside to having plates
To be clear, Peterson calls men who use TRP's methods "useless psychopaths." So I think you understand much less of him than you think.
csqr 7y ago
So you're saying you understand him better than his statements in the latest Joe Rogan podcast?
But seriously, Peterson's core ethos is the family and children, he criticizes MGTOW and the gaming PUA types insomuch as they are avoiding responsibility for raising their SMV and taking responsibility for building families.
He is very clear in the podcast that he finds nothing wrong with high SMV men who have plates - he has repeatedly pointed out his alignment with evolutionary theory (i.e. AFBB), going so far as mentioning Bill Burr's classic "gold-digging whore" routine https://archive.fo/uyeVh in his lectures.
It seems like the hostility to Peterson's message in some parts of TRP is residual anger phase directed at a guy who wants you to raise your SMV. If you have abundance mentality, why waste time arguing about these fundamentals? I'm a single guy with multiple plates, but surely there is space within TRP for solid guidance for guys who want to both raise SMV AND build a family, have kids....Otherwise we are simply a community of genetic dead ends.
GoCleanYourRoom 7y ago
God damn that is a lot of information to begin to process.
Meisner1 7y ago
Though i do want Jordan Peterson's view as a reality, i do want monogamy, a meaningful partnership more than the typical realistic view of women in this sub.
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TheRedPike Senior Endorsed 7y ago
I'm done having this conversation. There are many types of writing. This is one. If it isn't for you, then ignore it. This isn't /r /RedPillEssayCritique. If you think it is excessively spergie or violates Rule ZERO, hit the fucking report button instead of whining in comments. We really do remove a ton of shit from this thread every day; it happen FASTER if you report them though.
As for this thread? /r/GayLubeOil, notify the train yards, because I'm pinning this fucker.
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Fritz_Frauenraub 7y ago
There's some good stuff in here, but the unnecessary hyper-rationalistic style just obscures it. It's like rollo at his worst, when he goes into "credentialed academic" mode.
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BoogieorBust 7y ago
Could have been written much much simpler.
redpillcad 7y ago
if titled:
DO NOT EVER promise to provision outside of the nuclear family
Would go very far
Rian_Stone 7y ago
It's how he writes. It sounds like you understand it well enough to offer a coles notes version.
looking forward to it
ReacH36 7y ago
I'm someone who edits academic papers for trade publications. This post is poorly written and unnecessarily academic. His fake rigorousness gets in the way of simple communication.
His point can be summed up in one sentence: 'the idea that you have to be worthy of monogamy hurts the bottom 50% of men.' When in reality, it's not hard to rise above people who aren't even trying, or even aware of the game.
Brantmobile 7y ago
"Complexity is the language of the simple mind."
max_peenor 7y ago
Let me know when you start setting libraries on fire. I'll bring the marshmallows.
sadomasochrist 7y ago
> His point can be summed up in one sentence: 'the idea that you have to be worthy of monogamy hurts the bottom 50% of men.'
No.
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jonpe87 7y ago
I don't know why but my gut feels something really dark from Jordan.
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PerplexingPegasus_ 7y ago
This is truly an interesting piece. Definitely need to re-read this a couple of times to fully digest everything.
thebadmanpuntdbaxter 7y ago
Consider the possibility that he does understand AND accept this logical truth about the sexual marketplace. His definition of moral truth is the values and behavior that will yield the highest probability of survival for the individual or group over time, or something like that.
It’s fundamental knowledge with TRP that you can’t unplug someone through your will. They either seek it out or come to the conclusion on their own by way of trauma. So he understands A) his credibility would hurt if he gave the logical truth, and/or B) if he shot to inform all men on the bitter truth of the sexual marketplace, the information would be catastrophic for most individuals and general society. He wouldve ended up here with us if he didnt take a marginally acceptable stance for society.
He understands that a majority of men with the bitter truth would be either crippled or useless. By some combination of physical genetics, low IQ, and short power of will, the logical truth would only cause anxiety in most men who have zero potential to reach the top tier of men. So at any moment there is a man who can make you obsolete to a woman? He’s already promoting every core tenet of self improvement to build a life meaningful for the individual. What he can do is make men aware that there is a dominance hierarchy, is does determine sexual success, and if you don’t play you will suffer.
As well he’s discussed the historical pattern of polygamous societies becoming violent. Polygamy would be the end game if he laid out why marriages fail almost automatically. Men not falling victim to the psychological trap of romantic projection would mean the end of LTRs. Oneitis wasnt manufactured in a lab by women, it’s a result of the creative evolution of our own intelligence. We write stories in our mind about the past present and future with a chick because we anticipate and remember involuntarily. We pretty much romanticize ourselves. She has to trigger the projection through reciprocation of interest. Its not difficult, it’s natural for her and her survival.
Aaronindhouse 7y ago
Peterson talks a lot about the relationship between men and women pre 1940's-50's. He says that men and women generally worked together in order to reduce their shared suffering through rough times. Monogamy was beneficial in rough times because you needed someone you could count on. I generally think this makes sense and agree that monogamy worked for both men and women very well in these times.
However, we live in some of the softest times ever. There is very little conflict, very little suffering. Women have minimal need for men, or for children. With no threat of getting impregnating after having sex, women don't even have to be smart about the frequency or the stock of those they have sex with. Combine that with the state taking on the role of provider and caretaker, their security blanket, they don't really need men as partners in any way whatsoever. Even companionship has become obsolete in some ways. Women don't have to have a man in person to validate them and say pretty words to make them feel better. They can get that validation from a posted selfie on facebook and instagram.
There is no point to marriage if the man and the woman aren't working together to reduce their suffering. Female suffering is at an all time low and so they have very little motivation to stay with a man. I believe this is also why RP game can work in some marriages(not necessarily preventing cheating, but rekindling passion to some extent). Things like dread game introduce some of that danger and threat of suffering(because she is in danger of losing what you have to offer). This particular idea of being together to prevent suffering makes so much sense to me because it even explains why women stay with men that beat them. They stay because the same man that causes them suffering also holds them afterwards and tells them they are beautiful taking away some of the suffering he has caused(let me be clear, this is in no way an endorsement to go beat women so they stay with you).
Every man here desires a partner to face down both the suffering and the joy life has to give them, that's why you see so many guys here who are still trying to make LTR's work. It is difficult to suffer through our problems alone. At the end of the day though, we are still the only ones that know what steps to take to improve our individual suffering and we are the only ones that can act on it. TRP and Peterson both agree on this. Improve your own suffering as best you can always. If you get to a place where you have and continue to succeed at that, you may finally be in a place where you can truly know if a woman you meet actually reduces whatever suffering is left over in your life. If she does, then it may be worth considering the notion of trying to enter a long term relationship, because the woman in question is actually providing something very valuable to you, she is reducing suffering you cannot or have not been able to address yourself. I don't think this strays very far from the TRP notion of finding women who are a nice accessory to your life, an addition, not the meaning of it.
Meisner1 7y ago
And i hate that it has gone to this...
conflagratorX 7y ago
If women suffering is so small why so many of them are on antidepressants and why their level of happiness is lowest in history? I don't buy your explanation.
sadomasochrist 7y ago
This is the female happiness paradox.
Ezaar 7y ago
Physically speaking the point is made correctly.
Mentally so, is a product that is created from the abundance of technology.
You’re describing the issue with men and women in an advanced society.
Aaronindhouse 7y ago
That's a good question. You could ask the same thing about men too. I think the reason for this is people don't live meaningful lives anymore. Lots of the things TRP prescribes men are meaningful things to do for men(lifting, active hobbies, sports, etc.), which is why they turn guys lives around here in a good way. In many ways I think TRP is teaching men what men need to be fulfilled as men because society has forgotten that.
On the other hand, social engineering has attempted to push women into doing things that don't necessarily make them happy. Women are trying to work like men do and live the way men do, and it doesn't make them happy, go figure.
chaseexcellence 7y ago
I did not read this whole post. I felt like I was reading a graduate school paper. I think Jordan Peterson (JP) is right if we lived in the world of Disney. Unfortunately, we do not live in that world. I wish we did. If you watched JP on the Joe Rogan podcast. I think JP knows women and their Hyergamy is a bigger problem for the dating Market. Joe Rogan sorta seemed to not want to address certain subjects when it came to women. JP seemd to have gone full red pill in that interview as if he was speaking to Rollo Tomossi and the whole RMG.
EumenesOfEfa 7y ago
JP sells feel good advice. The complete opposite to the red pill.
Magnum256 7y ago
In another thread someone was saying that Joe Rogan is currently raising his wifes daughter from another marriage (so not his biological daughter) and so he tends to get quiet or change the subject when Jordan Peterson goes in hard on this subject.
antariusz 7y ago
Cognitive dissonance and ego investment.
“I want to agree with you, but I’m not a beta cuck, I’m a hard working “real” father because I’m raising someone else’s child unlike the dude that knocked her up and went on to be free of responsibility”
I_am_Jax_account 7y ago
I just saw the podcast where he talked about his 20 year old?? He literally never mentions them.
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czatara 7y ago
I would definitely pay to watch a Jordan Peterson & Rollo Tomasi interview. OP’s post is awesome, I need more time to fully digest it. It is an excellent attempt to reconcile JP with TRP philosophy,
My life has improved a lot with JP’s teachings, but it is clear to me that his agenda is to save Western society by building better beta men and bringing them back into the plantation, not exactly freeing them.
Moneyley 7y ago
JP hasnt really enhanced my life. So its like, why do people go after him? Since you like him, it feels good to be able to question with you and you attempt to be on the same plateau instead of looking for reasons to polarize. This brings me to my main point. To what extent do people that dont like JP really not like him or endorse his points. He is right in that we live in a nihilistic world. Have you ever noticed when you make a general assessment of something; whether in conversation or generalizing, somebody always wants to come in and provide an anecdote? JP seems to be endorsing marriage on the terms that it is good to contend with somebody not for the terms of bettering yourself. These are two separate ideas. The prevailing problem arises when somebody like myself, yourself or anybody else with less than a doctorate in psychology attempts to conceptualize something that Peterson says and convey it as negative... I dont know, maybe in efforts to disprove him on this ONE thing and then carry on your day thinking "yea, Im as smart/outwitted Peterson on this one". Most of us are not. So, I would be interested in knowing why other people (probably besides yourself) would be out to display their virtue signaling like an alpha gorilla in a jungle? Why do you think people should and do make a bad thing about such ideas as "cleaning your room", "get friends that want the best for you". To me it seems that we've become so independent, liberated and individualistic, that, we cant even accept good advice without trying to be egotistic in some sort of way. "Oh, but I do it this way" ... "Oh, I wouldve said/did it THIS way". I see pieces of this on this article and spread throughout the comment area. What do you think?
Edit: syntax, structure
czatara 7y ago
I am not really sure what you mean.
JP is a very intelligent man and he is brilliant when presenting and summarizing relevant knowledge that is very far away from my abilities and/or interests: Jung, Nietzsche, Dostoiévski, current psychology literature, etc. It gives me access to “hidden” gems in a level that is naturally deeper than what I usually see in TRP.
Nevertheless, I think his views towards women and relationships are really biased, either by his blue pill beliefs or by his tradcon motivation to get us all back into 1950s. He is still in the Matrix, and thus can be turned into an agent of the system.
Moneyley 7y ago
There is no perfect system. We all know this. I think I can agree with you on JP's affinity for how life was in the 1950's. Though it was more systematic, I hope we can both agree that hard working men, usually equated to having a good family (wife) which in turn I think is an intrinsic value that TRP is looking for but cant have because of the new system we are faced with. I've seen a lot of his video's on marriage, including trying to stay married and I think they can be easily misinterpreted and or "straw-manned". For example, its easy to say things like "Peterson says we should get married" while people like me can perceive it as "Peterson said it would be right if you can get married, its ok to contend with somebody else". But he goes on to say in other videos that you must fix yourself before you go out and ask the world to change for you- and since the world includes women, then JP is essentially giving TRP advice that is applicable to today's standards too. As you amass power, financial security and are physically active, you get to be more picky in the type of food you eat, the places you go too, when you go to them, the women you date, and when you want to date them (this includes any women you feel may be considered for a LTR). Yes, he endorses marriage but we cant even get to the prospects of marriage if one hasn't fixed themselves first and thats TRP philosophy.
L3T 7y ago
THis article is ridiculous and reads like someone who overdosed on modafinil and 'thinks' they are now smart, but they are running away with their own delusion.
JP knows where its at, but he is very careful to package his content such that he is not labelled as red-pill or anything in particular. ie. he is still PC, but is working positively to break down those PC barriers. He should be celebrated for someone who is able to do that.
TheRedPike Senior Endorsed 7y ago
So the cock is only half-way in his mouth then?
Do you belong here?
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xXMillhouseXx 7y ago
Hypergamy has been in decline, especially in Western countries, for many decades. Its basically a non issue when it comes to dating/marriage.
Tie5o11 7y ago
That is an interesting hypothesis. Do you have any evidence to back it up?
xXMillhouseXx 7y ago
Rutter, Virginia (2011). The Gender of Sexuality: Exploring Sexual Possibilities. Rowman & Littlefield Publishers (Gender Lens Series). p. 19.
Satou4 7y ago
So it's a quote from a book by some woman on gender studies? Should I even ask what HER source was on that scientific claim?
JamesSkepp 7y ago
Can you quote the page or the relevant paragraphs?
BoogieorBust 7y ago
Is it the result of women making heir own money?
KyfhoMyoba 7y ago
Largely. When a woman can provision herself, what does she need one of the 80% of men [betas] for? Why not just chase alphas?
BoogieorBust 7y ago
I drive for Lyft in Austin on weekends and I believe I see this amongst the successful young women I drive around on dates. I seem to have it made. Young, beautiful, 2500$ apartment, dates anytime they want.
Fryborg 7y ago
Hypergamy is in decline? you mean to say, that women have been branch-swinging less and less in the last few decades?
I_am_Jax_account 7y ago
Yeah that doesn't sound right. I think decades ago due to socially enforced monogamy they were branch swinging less but now since divorce isn't really frowned upon, they have upped the branch swinging.
Fryborg 7y ago
It doesn't sound right, because it isn't. I didn't want to just smack the guy around with facts, so I asked because maybe he's got some definitions mixed up or whatnot, but If he doesn't he's just entirely wrong. If hypergamy was a non-issue, every guy in this sub would be married with a near zero divorce rate.
I_am_Jax_account 7y ago
Well maybe he's a Jordan Peterson superfan or something. As interesting as I find JP, some of his fans are delusional fucking cult followers who jump down your throat if you even challenge one of JP's ideas such as "maybe hypergamy and marriage are not compatible and can't really exist simultaneously".
Fryborg 7y ago
Hypergamy never goes away completely. If factors like modern technology, and socialist government safety nets like food stamps and welfare are removed, and the labor of the average man can only be bought with chastity, women may not branch swing, but they are still going to pick the available mate that will increase their status in the social hierarchy. In other words, the daughter of a serf, if she is the most beautiful gal in the land will marry the prince instead of the boy next door if given the chance. One is hypergamy run amok, the other is hypergamy in check, but they are both hypergamy. So they can exist simultaneously.
I_am_Jax_account 7y ago
Right. I should have instead said maybe "hypergamy and no fault divorce, social media and marriage cannot exist simultaneously". What I meant was that without enforced monogamy like JP talks about, maybe marriage is not a good idea due to the unchecked hypergamy which happens when enforced monogamy isn't there. And quite honestly, I agree with what OP said about this topic which is that JP might have some cognitive dissonance going on when he promotes marriage because his tradon values are overriding his intellectual knowledge of hypergamy and its modern manifestations in a world of social media and no-fault divorce etc.
edit: actually what op instead was saying that JP flat out doesn't care about hurting men when promoting marriage with his knowledge that hypergamy will likely enter into the picture and cause of world of trouble through divorce for the man. I kind of agree with that also to be honest. He's too smart and aware of the world at large to not see how marriage laws and hypergamy will combine to crush a lot of men.
BoogieorBust 7y ago
Makes you wonder who the real father of that beautiful serf girl is. Her LTR father may have been one of the useful idiots JP talks about.
[deleted] 7y ago
Peterson, Rogan, feminists....all on the other side living out some fantasy.