I'm 27. She's 23. Everything is checking out: extremely pretty, religious, strong family, culturally conservative, cooks, plays an instrument, loves kids, is slim (so is her mom) etc. etc. I've done my due diligence, and I'm reasonably certain she's a virgin. We are still getting to know each other, but for the first time in a while I'm dating a girl without the motive of taking her to bed. Of course, I have other girls on the side, but I'm interested in taking things further. Marriage + family is one of my goals. While it's fun to fuck around, I want to have a lasting legacy.
Dating in a consciously traditional manner is different, because there's lots of what could be called beta signaling in an alpha frame. Holding doors, paying for the check, switching her to the inside of the sidewalk. I've found that the best way to do this is with an absent air and a firm hand on the small of her back- not looking at her but rather scanning the horizon, and never an obsequious smile, because things like this are just what you do. I think that in a Southern context things like these function almost like demonstrations that you're of the same social class.
It's important to escalate physically, at least to kissing, which is going to carry much more weight for a Christian virgin. All girls want to be kissed passionately. When she's most into it, push her away saying "We should stop." or "It's time for you to go home now," as if you want to preserve her virtue. Meanwhile your eyes and voice are telling her you want to tear her clothes off. If the relationship progresses, I intend to push things, and see where she caves. The longer she fends off my advances, the better. I want a woman with self-control. At first though, I'm going to be even more careful than she would be in cutting off physicality or refusing to allow her to spend the night. it presents a strong image of self-control and allows you to impose a strong frame on the relationship.
Dancing around here, a country two-step, is pretty red pill in nature. They man leads and the woman follows. He usually rests his hand on the back of her neck, which is a domination hold in wrestling. He leads her though a dazzling set of spins and she enjoys herself immensely.
What do you guys think about TRP in intentionally traditional contexts?

Lynda73 13y ago
Would this be acceptable to you if she had other guys on the side? If not, you're a fucking hypocrite.
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Lynda73 13y ago
You know, we aren't animals that are slaves to our instincts, so the 'I can't control myself because of my biology' is a bullshit argument. In the wild, females will mate with multiple males in order to get the strongest offspring (ever heard of sperm competition?). By your own argument, women should be out there mating with a ton of males. That's great that you and your wife have an understanding, but OP is placing a premium on 'his' girlfriend being a virgin while he's out screwing multiple women. THAT is hypocritical.
Edit: Not to mention he says he 'wants a woman with self-control' when he himself seems to have none.
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Lynda73 13y ago
I never said they didn't sneak.....
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Lynda73 13y ago
I also stuck a edit in there while you were replying. I just happen to disagree with your argument about biology explaining why it's 'normal' for males to screw around and not females.
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Lynda73 13y ago
And my point was that it is biologically a good strategy for females to mate with as many males as possible to get the ones with the best sperm. Therefore, the biology argument is a wash.
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Lynda73 13y ago
In most of the newer studies, the infidelity rates are about the same with women and men. Probably more women feel the need to lie about infidelity because of the slut shaming you are talking about, but the numbers are pretty close.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1211104/Think-men-unfaithful-sex-A-study-shows-WOMEN-biggest-cheats--theyre-just-better-lying-it.html
Granted, that's from the daily mail, but it's the first one I came across, and a more thorough search will give you the same results. Women might seek quality when it comes to a life partner, but that doesn't mean they don't cheat just as much as men.
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Lynda73 13y ago
Uh, yeah they did. They are just better at lying about it. Did you even read the article?
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[deleted] 13y ago
Religious? Fuck that!
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rofl
[deleted] 13y ago
Religion is the most beta thing you can do with your life. The difference is that instead of a woman fucking with your head and taking your money its a priest. Also, its just fundamentally wrong, stupid, and provides nothing of value.
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[deleted] 13y ago
I am not reading all of that. How about tl:dr. Also, protestants are fucking with my life, and I am an atheist. Much like the evilest of bitches, religion just can't keep their nose in their own business.
dropit_sphere 13y ago
I'm Mormon. Pro: We're not as different as you might think. Con:we're not as different as you might think. Feminism has made some inroads.
[deleted] 13y ago
To me its not about that. Its the fact that you believe in planet Kolob and magic underwear, and give 10% of your income for magic beans. I can't take anyone seriously who allowed himself to get brainwashed like that. You are the betaest of betas to me.
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You either believe or you don't. Religion (at least according to their official rules) doesn't give you the option to pick and choose what you believe. Those that believe some but not all of it, are most likely atheists like me because they realize the ridiculousness; but they are simply too pussy to sort things out in their mind and come to a hard conclusion.
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If they do and still come out a believer at the end, then they are just dumb.
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Lynda73 13y ago
The numbers aren't quite as disparate as you might think:
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistfamiliesmarriage/a/AtheistsDivorce.htm
Not to mention this doesn't take into account that atheists are more likely to forgo marriage completely in favor of living together, while with many religious people, living together without being married is a big no-no. So, statistics aren't everything.
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Lynda73 13y ago
Ha, that's news? I always say church is for sinners. Bottom line, people are people, religious or not.
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The_Dinosaur_Club 13y ago
Maybe you'd prefer a feminist.
[deleted] 13y ago
Over a jesus nut? Probably.
[deleted] 13y ago
From an agnostic, look at it like this:
All you're doing is excluding yourself from an entire group of women. I have yet to find a "religious" girl who wouldn't have anything to do with me knowing I wasn't religious. I even fucked a girl who passed out anti-abortion literature knowing full well I was pro choice.
The fact is, girl's "morals" go down the tubes once they get blinded by emotion.
The_Dinosaur_Club 13y ago
This is true. If your frame is strong enough, she's inevitably going to conform to some degree. Morality is a male construct.
[deleted] 13y ago
Spoken like a true beta
thelostapostle 13y ago
Story please... you can't tease something like that and not expand!
nicethingyoucanthave 13y ago
I had a girl for a while who believed in creationism. She knew I was an atheist, and she claimed to be looking for The Person God Has In Store for Me (tm). She would drive me crazy by saying things like, "if we evolved from monkeys then why are there still monkeys around? They all should have evolved too!"
I would rage. Like, RAAGE!
Nonetheless, she was quite attractive. Picture Diane Kruger. She liked to go out, and best of all she liked to dance. Our mutual friends were kind of square. So, on more than one occasion, I just cut her out of the herd. While they all sat around talking, I'd get her to leave with me and say to the friends: "Hey, we're going to a club. Can we hook up with you guys later tonight?"
Then at some point, after pawing her all night on the dance floor, I just escalated to kissing her. Textbook stuff. Once a girl is into it, she's into it as long as you don't ruin it. At no point did she say, "wait a second, this violates my religious teaching."
What she did say, after we had hooked up, was "are we going to tell people that we're together?" I told her I didn't mind if people know that we'd had sex, but I wasn't looking for a LTR. Now that made her mad. Fornication in violation of almighty god's commandments didn't make her mad. Being told, after having sex, that we aren't dating made her mad.
So then she tried giving me the cold shoulder. I actually asked her out - I was going to take her on a legitimate, nice date. No response. So I stopped talking too.
The next time I see her she's with three guys and a girl at a high top table outside a restaurant at a big art festival. Everybody is just walking around, having a good time. I'm with a buddy and we walk over to their table. Introductions are made. I asked her how she was. She's like "fine" so I don't say anything else to her.
And I'll never forget this part. Two girls walk by the table, and they are incredibly hot. Dressed up. Just amazing. There happened to be a cameraman there for some website. They obviously knew him, because they made some joke like they were stealing something from his bag. I put my arms around both girls and said, "I'm with security. I think you two are pickpockets. You're under arrest." They laughed.
My buddy, best fucking wingman in the world, doesn't miss a beat. He pushes me out of the way, puts his arms around the girls and says, "I'm with the FBI. This man is a known terrorist. I'll protect you." Now we had them hooked. They were into us, and we just walked away from the table with them.
At any rate, later that night christian girl texts me and we go to a hotel. This time, I really turned up the freaky on her, just to kind of establish the level of the relationship. She liked it. She liked to be given orders.
The whole rest of the time we were together, that was what characterized our relationship. She got turned on by being ordered to do stuff. In the bedroom obviously, but everywhere else too. Sometimes I would text her at work and give her something to write on a post-it note, then make her put that in her bra and keep it there until I saw her. She would be turned on by walking around with this filthy shit about her on paper against her skin all day. Simple stuff like that.
She did come back to the religious thing occasionally. She'd want me to go to church with her. I'd refuse. She would not see me on Sunday.
I think she started getting depressed. She started crying one time and I told her that this wasn't good for her, and she needed to get back on track with her faith - that was the only thing that would make her truly happy.
Didn't talk to her for a while, then she starts texting me wanting to meet up. We try it again, same thing. She's obviously not going to be happy with me, so I tell her we can't see each other again no matter what. I get a few more texts, and I'm polite but firm.
About a month later, a mutual friend tells me she's dating a loser, like some alternative punk guy. We're still fb friends though and I didn't see anything about him on there, so who knows. Soon after that, she's engaged to some guy from church. He looks like a nice guy actually. So, I truly hope that she's happy.
[deleted] 13y ago
I am excluding myself from a bunch of groups of women. Like the morbidly obese group. Or the hood bitches. Or the obviously drug addicted group. The list goes on. The whole reason for women is that they make me happy. If I am not happy at the end, what is the point of any effort? Also, we are talking about marriage/cohabitation here, not just fucking. Normally I don't bring up religion unless its pushed like that, but I don't see how I could tolerate someone who believes in hocus-pocus on daily bases or at least when I am not actually fucking her.
Also, I live 30 min from NYC. Lots of choices.
[deleted] 13y ago
I exclude a bunch of groups, but thats based on if I find them fuckable. If all you're wanting is a pump n dump, christain girls are just as good as any other. You would be surprised what the preacher's daughter does behind the curtains.
[deleted] 13y ago
O ya, agreed. But this guy is talking about marriage. I don't go into these deep topics when its just fucking, nothing good can come out of it.
[deleted] 13y ago
Oh, I certainly agree with you there. Marriage isn't just a religious thing though, there are plenty of secular women who will try to wrangle you into a contract.
I guess my point was, I dont want to marry ANY of them.
[deleted] 13y ago
Eventually I do, or at least common-law marriage. I do want kids eventually, and single parent households are not good for kids.
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The_Dinosaur_Club 13y ago
No matter how alpha you are, inevitably, your wife's gaze is going to stray. It's going to happen. Now imagine if there was an imaginary, unreachable Alpha male, the biggest Alpha male in the entire universe actually. His representatives on earth are celibate and probably gay and your wife can go go spill her deepest secrets in the confessional to them and treat them like emotional tampons. Moreover, there's an entire community of people who would think pretty poorly of either of you for frivolous divorce. Culturally, this community loves married sex, good liquor, and has pretty good parochial schools. This is the Catholic Church anywhere the parishes are stuffed with kids and they still offer the Latin mass. Are you child free?
Newthinker 13y ago
This level of relishing God as a relationship manipulator is off putting.
[deleted] 13y ago
When you find a better way to balance out hypergamy you be sure to let us all know. Catholicism is the last bastion of Natural Law in the First World and you would be wise to educate yourself.
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[deleted] 13y ago
I am an Atheist you soapbox preaching chucklehead, but thank you for the self-righteous crash course on a bunch of shit I already know. Don't you get enough validation in /r/atheism?
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[deleted] 13y ago
I don't want to have a conversation with a self-righteous atheist who is completely blind to value in already established systems. I want to make fun of him without him stealing my lines.
Newthinker 13y ago
Try treating a woman as more than subhuman and watch the loyalty roll in. You don't need a ridiculous religion to do the work for you.
[deleted] 13y ago
You honestly think attractive women are capable of loyalty by treating them as equals? Wow.
Newthinker 13y ago
Way to read. I just said objectifying them as brainless packages of meat won't win any one of them over.
[deleted] 13y ago
Except I do, and it does.
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The_Dinosaur_Club 13y ago
You are a chump for tying yourself to just one woman who could take half your shit at any time because you married her. The only reason to risk/bear that arrangement is for the sake of kids.
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[deleted] 13y ago
ewww... /r/atheism is leaking in
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[deleted] 13y ago
because religion is relevant to the discussion, not your wangsty bullshit. Also,
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[deleted] 13y ago
what the fuck are you on about?
legendofpasta 13y ago
Excellent post. Your down votes come from the atheist spillover who don't get that religious Catholics still reproduce the right way, be they beta or otherwise, and yes, the women are supposed to be keeping a promise to god, the most alpha of alphas.
Religion attempts to curb hypergamy in a big way. Christian values are mostly opposed by feminists because it makes women behave. That's why it's so compatible with red pill ideology.
These atheist dudes are just starting to open their eyes and they don't understand that religion is necessary and beneficial.
Lynda73 13y ago
According to the Bible (unless you are only looking at the old testament where it was 'allowed' because of men's 'weakness'), adultery is wrong on both sides because it is based in lust, which is considered a sin.
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legendofpasta 13y ago
You don't have to believe it exists, you have to know that it works.
I don't believe in Santa Claus but it makes kids behave.
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legendofpasta 13y ago
There are many studies proving all of these things.
Im sorry if that upsets you. The red pill is bitter.
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Bobsutan 13y ago
Quite frankly IMO its not a real relationship until you really imprint on her. Having sex is tge principle means of doing so.
If you can't imprint then she either has mental health problems or rode the carousel so much it broke her.
newbtropic 13y ago
Lucky you. I think you found one of the few marriageable (is that even a word) women. I dated one like that (a devout catholic) that wasn't uptight like most people would expect, but I was 23 at the time and I just wasn't ready for that yet. Regret it now, but whatever nothing can be done now.
Anyways, I would be trying to fuck her asap if I was you. Continue to escalate until she stops you. Once you do she will be hooked. I personally would only do this if you thought that you could marry her, because if you fuck her and leave her you will probably destroy her, and I couldn't live with myself, but this is a decision you have to make for yourself.
ss_camaro 13y ago
Oneitis
VideoLinkBot 13y ago
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iggybdawg 13y ago
Be careful. Sounds like my wife plus religiousness. When I started having sex with her, I felt "hmm, not quite as good as some exes" and I chalked it up to her being a 24 year old virgin, so I went through with marriage and kids. Nope, she's extremely mild sexually, borderline asexual. It takes extreme effort to get things most would call "normal" like bj's, non-missionary position.
For me, I came upon r/theredpill through r/deadbedrooms ... think about that.
Married Man Sexlife is your friend.
AlwaysLateToThreads 13y ago
With a truly traditional girl you don't need the red pill. Devotion and submission to her husband is how she pleases her God. She should be more attracted to a beta provider type than an alpha. Also you've already got frame because she wants her husband to lead.
Problem is these women don't exist in 2013.
[deleted] 13y ago
Outside of religious colleges and universities, they're almost impossible to find. Even then, 50%+ of them aren't even serious about religion and hide behind it after slutting it up and boozing the night before chapel.
[deleted] 13y ago
Or a "wolf alpha"?
Not sure how I feel about being a wolf alpha. It borders on being the beta dream of finding the one true love. But I probably can't relate at all because I'm just a stupid kid with little life experience. Maybe when I'm 40, I'll think differently, and I'll want 5 kids.
doesntknowanymore10 13y ago
You want a woman with self control, but are you a man with self-control? Obviously not if you need to have girls on the side. You have no honor and you aren't good enough for her. She'll see that and get rid of you soon.
thecajunone 13y ago
Wow you might be the biggest douche ever. As long as they haven't had the exclusive talk there is nothing wrong dating other people and keeping your options open. She could very well be doing the same thing.
[deleted] 13y ago
"culturally conservative"
"virgin"
Yeah, totes likely. She's a play-the-field kinda girl for sure.
thecajunone 13y ago
You are silly if you think any woman doesn't keep options.
[deleted] 13y ago
I got $5 which says that, like most traditional, family-oriented 23-year-old girls of conservative, religious upbringing, she has not really been exposed to the idea that consensual nonmonogamy is even a thing, nor that there's even a "the exclusive talk" for them to have.
$5 more says that OP, when he finally can't put off having the "exclusive talk" any longer, will painstakingly structure this talk so as to avoid any unsolicited disclosures about his nonmonogamous activities to date, which he probably won't have to lie about if it never occurs to her to ask directly.
"Wait, so you mean we haven't been exclusive up until now?"
The_Dinosaur_Club 13y ago
Honor is something men owe only to each other. If I was fucking her with no intention of marrying her, I'd be dishonoring her father, because I've lowered the SMV of his daughter who he's spent a lifetime investing in. But I'm not fucking her, and I wouldn't even try unless we were committed, which I'm also not. With most guys I wouldn't care, because they're weak fucks who raised slutty daughters, but hey call me crazy I admire what this guy's built so I'm not going to be an ass. I've also made no commitments to her i.e. haven't given my word. If I did, I'd stand by it, but I haven't. White knight somewhere else.
doesntknowanymore10 13y ago
What the hell makes you say honor is only a male thing? You need years of counseling from a professional.
Newthinker 13y ago
Prove this.
bigskymind 13y ago
Bullshit, what a bunch of crap. She's a fucking adult and has nothing to do with her father.
[deleted] 13y ago
If that's true how do you explain the well known phenomenon of "daddy issues?"
doesntknowanymore10 13y ago
The same way you explain "mommy issues". Your point?
dropit_sphere 13y ago
I'd be interested to hear about your relationship with her father if/as this progresses. Feel free to message me for a redpill ear.
RedditBlueit 13y ago
Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life.
[deleted] 13y ago
Girls are attracted to men with options. Once you are married to a girl, and especially once you have a child (which she will want), you know longer have other attractive options. It is almost impossible to reliable maintain a decent frame once you have put yourself legally in a subordinate position. This is very bad for maintaining attraction.
rickaboy 13y ago
I dunno. If she believes in God and is very Religious .. And you don't.. I'd suggest staying away.
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The_Dinosaur_Club 13y ago
I'm hoping to spark discussion and see if anyone has any similar experiences or thoughts related to not banging a woman (at least not immediately) with the idea of marrying her, whether positive or negative.
[deleted] 13y ago
I was in a similar situation, except I was around 23 and she was 19. Southern, religious, etc. She had never kissed a guy, and was a virgin. Wait, am I writing about the same girl?
Anyway, you hear people talk about "one of the good ones." I can honestly say that I have enough experience and hindsight to know that she was one of the good ones.
At the time I had no intention of settling down, and four years later, I still really don't. I will say this though. After taking her virginity, and having a girl that would do almost absolutely anything for me, including putting up with my bullshit, for over a year, I broke up with her and moved off and on. She started throwing around subtle hints of wanting to get married, but I wasnt even planning on staying in the same city for very long. Trying to start a career and all.
She's been with one guy since me, and they are getting married soon. I'll be honest; when i found out, I was, well, I went out and got drunk.
I'm only telling you that, to tell you this: Be careful. I've never had any intention of getting married, and I still dont want to. But, if thats your ultimate goal, and you think you found one of the "good ones," don't fuck it up. All this is assuming that you're not building her up to be something that she's not.
With all that said, and thinking about "the one that got away," I still wouldn't have done anything differently. I moved for my career, and I would do it again. If push came to shove and she wanted to get married, I wouldn't do it. I just can't picture giving up my own goals for something that will most probably end in disaster, and costing a lot of money and my own happiness.
The_Dinosaur_Club 13y ago
I'm really trying to stay cautious here, both in expectation management and in not wrecking things. I've had it with crazies, junior feminists, and even worse, the decently nice girls who are also high powered careerists. The M word doesn't even cross my lips until I've been dating for two years. Anyone who says good women aren't out there don't know where to look, or don't care to. "But if she's Christian she won't give you anal!" Who cares? If she'll cook and clean, smile at me after a hard day's work and raise me tall sons and lovely daughters I couldn't give a fuck. I'm going to re-build my corner of civilization where the boys can shoot, the girls can cook and there's a bookshelf instead of a TV in the living room.
[deleted] 13y ago
Well first, just because she's christian doesn't mean that she won't take it up the butt. Get that thought out of your head right now.
As far as the rest goes, I honestly don't know what to tell you. I was never looking for anyone to raise kids, I really don't even care if she can cook.
All I really care about is getting laid when I feel like it, and some occasional company. I travel for a living, so I can do pretty much what I want to on the road. I can tell you though, after being on the road, and even spending a weekend partying, it sucks coming home to an empty house, a 12 pack of beer, and a frozen dinner.
It sucks even more having someone up your ass for being gone too much, but still wants you to take them out with YOUR money that you made while you were gone. Fuck that shit.
[deleted] 13y ago
Out of curiosity, what exactly do you do? Getting paid to be on the road sounds interesting.
librtee_com 13y ago
I noticed you didn't say a single word in here about the personal dynamics between you and the girl. She checks all the boxes, but do you two GET ALONG??
bigskymind 13y ago
It doesn't matter, as long as she does what she is told and raises me up some good strong sons and cooks and cleans.
[deleted] 13y ago
Don't let religion fool you. It's the idea of innocence used to cover up people's true identity.
If you wanna risk a marriage I suggest holding out for as long as possible before doing it.
Personally I don't think the traditional mindset exist anymore besides the facade people put up when they want to seem like they live a certain life style.
dropit_sphere 13y ago
The traditional mindset absolutely exists, and comprises a noticeable section of the manosphere, viz. Dalrock,Sunshine Mary, Good Strong Men. It seriously is the weirdest alliance ever (pickup artists and conservative Christians?), but there has been some absolutely awesome stuff going on at dalrock's lately. Even if you're not Christian, I would highly recommend adding at least dalrock to your reading list.
wh40k_Junkie 13y ago
For sure. I'm not very Christian, but Dalrock is by far one of my favourite bloggers in the domain. Guy knows his shit
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dropit_sphere 13y ago
As a Christian, if she's worried about being slutty WITHIN marriage, she's not living her religion.
roe_ 13y ago
This might be true, but sexual shyness can be overcome, with a little patience and work.
In fact, I'd say gently pushing back boundaries is a fun and rewarding part of the sexual dynamic.
The_Dinosaur_Club 13y ago
That's certainly true of pushing for sex before marriage with certain girls. Some girls are just prudes. For most guys it's just not worth the time. However, if she really is a virgin, she'll learn at a fast pace if taken to the marriage bed. Also, today's Catholics and some Evangelicals have a very open attitude towards sex within marriage, see for example Theology of the Body, which is kind of a guiding document for lots of young couples. If we continue, it will be worth it to push boundaries: firstly because I'm a man who finds her attractive, and secondly to gauge her response.
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_Molon_Labe_ 13y ago
80% of men are still going to want sex after marriage.
iasthealpha 13y ago
Honestly, This is the exact point in which I want to find myself at 27 -30. Growing up in a Christian home I can tell you as long as you remain this strong frame she will follow you, unless you step out of the line as a Christian, but it has to be a big taboo fuck up, and even then its iffy. They usually stick to their man, usually.
So as for TRP I think you're doing it right, don't loose that frame, and don't fuck up.