First ever post here. I want to add my experience in light of /u/KageRyu's series where he helped a friend get out of a shitty situation. In this post I wanna introduce my friend, add some background, describe and analyze his behavior and conclude with some thoughts on how to avoid wasting your precious time on people who frankly do not deserve it. I appreciate any criticism and apologize for any mistakes, English is not my first language.
A friend of mine that I met in highschool is constantly crying in a WhatsApp group (instant messenger in case you don't know it) of me, him and 2 others about how shit his life is, his depression and hatred for humanity, openly lets himself get dragged down by nihilist ideas, that he never even dated a girl etc etc. Just an hour ago actually sent a text saying he just woke up. It is fucking 3PM right now where I live. So this guy, lets call him Jeff, is complaining about life in group chat all the while sitting on his ass, doing the minimum for uni, playing videogames till 3AM and just being unproductive as fuck in general. He's socially inept, scrawny and incredibly nerdy. Adamantly liberal and anarchistic, quite elitist not only about his political views. You get the idea.
I decided that I was gonna try to help Jeff when he voiced his opinion on women in some disussion. Jeff said that he is looking for a smart independent woman that loves him for who he is and whom he can have scientific, philosophic or whatever kind of somewhat intellectual debates with. He thinks modern women are worthless since most are not intellectual individuals and lowering his standards to accomodate that is not an option for him, he did say however that looks don't matter to him past a certain minimum. Here's the kicker though - he decided that the best way to acquire such a woman is simply by doing absolutely nothing, not even motherfucking going out on a semi regular basis, and waiting until she magically falls into his lap while doing jack shit to become a better man (or rather a man in the first place). Yes, I'm serious. He actually thinks this is his best bet, and if it won't work he's just gonna die alone while seething in self pity.
Now for anyone who knows TRP his dream woman is pretty much textbook bluepill fantasy on top of his "plan" being unrealistic as fuck which should be obvious to anyone. Jeff is pretty much the male equivalent of a blue haired feminazi 400lbs tumblrina hamplanet asking where all the good men have gone and rambling on about muh inner beauty.
I told him that his expectations are not proportional to what he can offer and that he has unrealistic expectations in the first place, that a relationship between a man and a woman is not based around intellectual exchange. That couples in a traditional marriage with traditional gender roles are happier and less likely to divorce which I backed with statistics and pure evolutionary logic. That yes, men and women are adapted to their gender roles (men do not fucking give birth to babies and neither do they have bodily features that can feed one). That just because society has been degenerating over the past 50 years or so doesn't mean intergender relationship dynamics have catched up to Feminist views. That Feminism started out with equal rights which is desirable and then went from the equality lie through to the absurd bullshit we deal with today. That women largely prefer muscles and not brains, asked him if he sees Mensa International members drowning in pussy or if it's rather gymbros getting all the girls.
Jeffs reaction boils down to a lot of ad hominem, a lot of mental gymnastics to question my statistics (they only examined married couples, surely the fraction of couples that never legally marry are totally different for whatever fucking reason), total disregard of evolutionary logic even though he is an adamant atheist, that he'd rather die alone than adapting his standards. He said going to the gym is not an option because there are only primates there. In response I laid down the various advantages of regularly going to the gym with emphasis on discipline and confidence. He said he is disciplined (yeah fucking right, and gets out of bed at fucking 2PM) and that his appearance does not have any effect on his confidence at all. The discussion went on for hours in total and we ended up in a place where he was pretty much proven wrong. He then went on to say that he's gonna disregard my advice because I have no clue what I am talking about and cannot possibly be right. He seriously made remarks that I vape as if that's a fucking argument. I asked him to show me a single time where he could refute my theses with tangible proof. He told me to search for such a passage myself, and at that point I realized I'm wasting my time and gave up (should have realized that way way way earlier).
I think Jeff values intellect so much and disregards everything else because he's a smart guy, mentioned he has ~120 IQ or something but has literally no fucking quality beyond that. He is trying to bend society around this quality of his. Feminine mindset. He is trying to cover his insecurities by telling himself that only IQ should matter in today's society, that his appearance should be disregarded and since it obviously is not that way society is at fault and not him. He said my advice does not apply to him because he's different, special snowflake syndrome. He failed to explain in what way going to the gym could possibly be detrimental to his psychic or physical health, but kept claiming it's not for him since he's different. In short, his bluepill reasoning is literally the stereotypical feminine mindset discussed here constantly. Complete with victim mentality, snowflake syndrome and shittons of rationalizations. Cannot deal with the possibility that he is wrong. Will completely disregard any input if it is not in line with his views.
[TL;DR] / Conclusion:
Point is, you cannot argue with people whose heads are this deep up their asses. Who are this bluepill. I know many people here used to say don't talk about RP stuff IRL but if you truly want to help a brother out or more generally speaking if you want to argue about ANYTHING, before you begin assess your chances of success. Think about whether it will be worth your time if you get into this argument. I know I certainly have a problem arguing far too often, especially on reddit, and I don't think I am alone with that. Even if they seem like good people, they might still be completely resistant to different opinions. If you happen to know how they act in ordinary discussions that'll give you a good idea about their openness towards other ideas. If they're adamant about politics (especially progressive views) they're probably not gonna accept RP truths. If they're adamant about feminism, FUCKING ABORT MISSION. Do not waste your time on futile arguments. Do not argue with people who do not want their mindset challenged.
The story I mentioned in the beginning might be inspiring but don't expect to replicate that kind of success.
I'm still hoping I could at least plant a seed inside his head but I'm probably just rationalizing the hours I wasted on this. Don't make this mistake guys, your time is better spent fucking jacking off than arguing with a wall.
^(Resubmitted: removed link)
SMGPthrowaway 8y ago
Late to the party OP. I've opened a few friends to RP. My advice is to not give a fuck if they decide it's not for them. Tell them about it, link them a few good articles (my favorites are articles about sexual psychology, such as hypergamy values), and tell them it worked for you and opened your eyes during hard times. That's about all you can do. You lead the horse to the water.
I have a friend that's been constantly having trouble with women. He's more fit than me, if a little less handsome. Despite that he's still a virgin and keeps getting LJBF'd. He asks me advice every now and then. I give it, then if he continues asking I link him RP material. Finally I showed him the sub. He says it's not for him and I'm okay with that. His loss. He knows in the back of his mind that I'm way more successful with women but his BP mind is fighting it.
Let them man. Not worth your time to convince these guys.
ecosci 8y ago
Throw him to the wolves its the best thing that can happen to him he will see the errors one day most of us have been there and laugh at our old self now.
kealh 8y ago
Yup. Made this mistake many time trying to help my beta friends. It's a waste of time. Fuck them, sit back and enjoy their suffering. God I fucking hated myself for telling them all my moves.
MrBellsprout123 8y ago
I've been trying to get my mother to fall into my frame and it has been impossible. I tried EVERYTHING. Maintaining frame, dread. I hadn't spoke to her in 2 months before I came home from Christmas in hopes she would get the message. She is constantly barging into my private life, yelling at me for the dumbest things, nagging me constantly, always shaming and guilt tripping me.
She wrote me some sappy letter with a bunch of hamster nonsense saying I was just putting up walls that weren't necessary and that I needed to let people in, and she went off crying.
Finally I walked up to her, got right in her face, and told her exactly what she was doing that was bothering me. I was pissed,I've said all this stuff to my mother about 1000 times before, but she never listens or takes me seriously. But I maintained frame and was firm and concise in what I said. I said my piece, and just left.
Next thing you know I have my father come into my room telling me I can't speak to my mother like that, and that if I ever speak her like that again I'm not allowed in the house, and that I HAVE to show my mother respect.
So I said to my father:
"So no matter what Mom does, no matter how out of line she is, no matter what her actions are or how badly she behaves, or what she says or what she does, I have to respect her?"
And my father responds:
"Yes"
Some men you can't help.
[deleted] 8y ago
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dpape39 8y ago
Thanks for the advice. It's kinda ironic because this guy is adamantly pro rational thought yet I didn't see a hint of rationale in his argumentation. Guess that's what this type of mentality results in.
[deleted] 8y ago
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awalt_cupcake 8y ago
what do you mean by conditional acceptance? "I'll get back with you if you do x" sort of power play between a woman and the guy?
And emotional arguments, what do you mean by that
[deleted] 8y ago
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awalt_cupcake 8y ago
that just sounds like a normal insult
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Stationarity 8y ago
My i.q. is nearly 160. It hasn't helped my social game one bit.
OmegaMan2 8y ago
In my experience, I found that women can and do enjoy a good intellectual discussion, BUT it's with men they are attracted to.
Even a decently dressed Beta will not elicit the same intellectual fervor in a woman as it will with a man she desperately wants to fuck.
[deleted] 8y ago
If he is not a valuable social asset to you dumb his ass. His negative energy is going to spill over into your life, and I don't think you want negative energy in your life.
dpape39 8y ago
Yeah, after this I decided to stop arguing with him no matter about what. Time will tell if he is a worthy friend
Mckallidon 8y ago
Fuck them. Let them learn by trial. And if they don't you can't have survivor guilt about leaving them in the dust. Even your best friends and parents are selfish, self-serving cunts. Don't waste your time trying to unplug someone who hasn't arrived there themselves.
butter_coffee 8y ago
If his views are so "correct" why is his life so miserable all the time. Obviously they are not working and wrong.
Docbear64 8y ago
Many people are more comfortable with their miserable routine and thought processes versus the challenge of improving themselves. It's more comfortable to think you're good enough , life and opportunity just hasn't rolled your way and just wait out your time no matter how weak or lacking in ownership of your life that perspective is .
The biggest takeaway though should be how a person who considers themselves logical , analytical , and intellectual can be absolutely none of those things when it comes to relationships or understanding the sexual market place . I know too many men whose intelligence is their only attractive quality and are depressed to find that women don't get wet for that big juicy brain alone.
Shiva-Lingam 8y ago
We do drown in pussy, but it's true only for high level Mensans and we keep it secret from all the others :P
All jokes aside, sometimes there are actually cute girls attending Mensa events, especially bigger events and the competition is nil. Teach your friend a few things and get him to go to Mensa events, at least he has a better chance than by doing nothing.
Although with 120 IQ he most likely won't be able to enter, but it would depend on which test he took.
MomentumRising 8y ago
"I'm still hoping I could at least plant a seed inside his head but I'm probably just rationalizing the hours I wasted on this."
-nod-
"your time is better spent fucking jacking off than arguing with a wall."
This is worst.
Flash-Lightning 8y ago
The more emotionally invested someone is in an idea, the harder it is for their opinion to change in the face of rational evidence based thought. This is why you see so many cults, religions..etc. The only way for him to take the red pill is for him to be fucked so hard by the blue one he has to see his life for what it is. He sounds young, maybe he needs to find a job, start paying for his own shit before he realizes his poor lifestyle choices.
BestSC86 8y ago
"120 IQ"
Mine is 10pts higher but I understood early on that it is a meaningless stupid stat which will get you nothing without hard work, social acumen and creativity.
Your friend is one of those people we talk about regularly.....those "smart" boys who are always the stupidest people in any room or discussion. He is smart only his own mind but actually a truly stupid person.
It is really hard to help stupid people especially the ones who actually believe that they are the smartest people in the world.
dpape39 8y ago
This is 100% true. Talent < hard work < hard work and talent
I'd call him lazy or close minded rather than stupid, but yeah definitely a futile effort to try and argue with that kind of people.
AcrossHallowedGround 8y ago
Not stupid in the common use of the word, more ignorant really. The only thing they learn about it what can maintain their interest. These vast and loft complicated topics. And that's all they have. Try talking about something mundane, and yes, they appear as stupid as a person can be.
Yeah I'm at 115 or something. I do some cool stuff but it didn't come to me without hundreds of hours of work or more and constant fuckups.
I learned recently to start doing stuff that seems "stupid" to me. Last night I spent about 4 hours resurfacing and polishing a clutch lever I had laying around. I was able to prove/apply a new skill. Was it a 'stupid' thing to do? Absolutely! I will never get any use out of the damn thing. And I couldn't be happier.
Keep the knowledge you learn from school kids. Forget everything else. Do what makes you happy, not what makes you 'smart.'
Stythe 8y ago
High intellect that isn't used to better yourself and your life is like a big dick on a monk. I want to know how big the line is between autism and giftedness, because the people I meet who are intellectually difted are RETARDED when it comes to basic human interactions.
kremer5 8y ago
a big dick on a monk, that's a great line
Stythe 8y ago
Thanks, I'm seriously trying to work on blunt, tactless analogies. They're so useful.
foreverstuckinDEL2 8y ago
IQ is best described as how fast you can pick up things and learn new things. Its not an indication of actual knowledge. A person with an IQ of 200 will learn how to operate a technical device faster than someone with an IQ of 80, but the guy with 80 can be smarter.
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Koryphae_ 8y ago
Isn't IQ more logic and algebraic based test? How does it exactly say about picking up/learning new things?
foreverstuckinDEL2 8y ago
Logical thinking helps you to understand things quicker.
theONE843663 8y ago
The IQ trap it's fucking real bro. Wisdom > Raw computational ability. Srs I died laughing at "...Gymrats are primates" lol if he's so smart, he should know that humans are the most evolved primates LMFAO. What a fucking poser!
AcrossHallowedGround 8y ago
That's what a lot of people don't seem to get. That's all IQ is is raw computational ability.
TyrannyVengeance 8y ago
Intellectual quotient moves as well. It's not static for life, like any other gay fucking test made by nerds for nerds it's bullshit, yeah I kick ass on computers and today's virtual systems and databases , so what, my real job is always gonna be people.
Marcus1138 8y ago
It can also be trained, and diet can have a big effect.
But that's not to say that having a high IQ is useless. Sure, being wise and good with people is more valuable in day to day life, but having a high IQ makes it easier for you to "put the pieces together" - whether that's with a RP theory, your math homework, or a new business.
NotUpToAnythingGood 8y ago
When I have those kinds of discussions with non-RP people, I generally state what I do and how well it works. I will also drop a small nugget of truth which plants that seed. Sometimes it germinates, sometimes it dies.
Several of my friends & acquaintances are amazed at how happy my life is despite ignoring the adage "Happy wife, happy life". Like hell if I work my life to make her happy. I make me happy and she gets on that train to join me. That's not saying I shit on my wife, but I do me, she wants to partake in that success, and does what she has to do so.
I lead because I have to. It's hard to show that to someone who doesn't understand.
It's a large part of why the usual party line is to not discuss anything RP with non-RP people. The ROI is generally rather low.
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jeezydasnowman 8y ago
I think you are way to invested in your friends. Pay more attention to yourself and don't worry about your friends' problems.
boscoist 8y ago
Go watch the matrix again, some people aren't ready to be unplugged. And even if they are they may struggle with the new reality.
muddynips 8y ago
You can only help the willing.
Battle-Scars 8y ago
Parts 2 and 3 of the inspiring story you reference is fiction. When trying to expose a friend to Trp the results you got are closer to real life.
dpape39 8y ago
I mean, yeah might very well be, same as many other field reports. But that story was one of the factors why I decided to try and help Jeff so I'd still call it inspiring even if pure fiction. May also call it mental masturbation I guess
Herbooo 8y ago
Youre friend is a fucking loser.
Fontess 8y ago
how I see things, your friend is bitter because girls are not sucking his dick "just" because he is so smart and special and they should ignore the fact that he is complete loser. You cant help someone who doesnt want to help himself. From my experience, you are just wasting your time with person like him. They dont want to change. So while he will try game women with tools of a woman and wonder why woman dont want to fuck him, you fuck them like a man. Dont talk with him, actually show him that your tools work and that he can put his intellectual stories in his ass and actually start to be a man.
chahmana 8y ago
Man you ever wonder what happened if the dogs all around us started to become conscious, make sense out of all the shit around. It will be madness and chaos. And ofcourse you won't have a pet anymore. The point is bro, your a superior being, that is the fact. And you are superior to your friend ( if you can ever call him that again ). Accept the fact and make friends which share your ambition. Your old dude needs to have the gut to digest RP in its raw form. Don't serve it on a platter. Rather encourage him to indulge in new experiences.
midlifedick 8y ago
The way you talk to someone is usually more important than what you are saying. You started off with "his expectations are not proportional to what he can offer" , those probably aren't the exact words you used but it doesn't matter. You hit the ego at the start, and that is when he shut down. No amount of facts, arguments, talking, whatever is gonna open him back up for that talk.
Read up on influencing people instead of arguing. Find Influence by Cialdini and study it. Read Dale Carnegie.
You will have another chance, but don't try to stuff your view into his head, invite him into your world. Don't stand there with the door open waiting, just open it and go back to your business.
deeman010 8y ago
I introduced TRP to my friends but in the manner in which I only gave out small tidbits of knowledge every time they asked for advice concerning a particular girl. Sooner or later they start asking on what you read or why you know xxxx and I try to keep it a because of how strong the inclination towards feminism is.
On topic, I can't think of a way to help your friend. You probably need to wait for him to realize his own mistakes which is something that could happen so many years from now.
Utterberetacht 8y ago
“The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.” - Morpheus
[deleted] 8y ago
I just gave a copy of The Rational Male to my best friend last night. He's also listening to in audio format. What's funny is his wife started reading the book when they showed up at my house last night. This is going to be interesting.
wtf793 8y ago
Fuck this man. Don't go about trying to enlighten people. Your intentions were noble, but that guy's a fucking dick.
CollaterLDamage 8y ago
a thing it seems everyone seems to misunderstand is that, you are breaking the matrix. imagine going your whole life, thinking your a man only to find out you are actually a women. just imagine how that would flip your whole life. if you want kids, you need to sleep with a man. your dick is fake and youve been carefully conditioned not to know otherwise.
if i told you this, you would tell me to go fuck myself, its all bullshit and im crazy.You see, to get a mouse out its whole, you dont hit the whole with a hammer, you put peanut butter at the door.
what im trying to say is, forcing your reality on someone isnt going to make them listen. you must lead them to your conclusion. both man and women. if im to make you believe me, i need to make it seem like it was essentially your idea in the first place. slowly reeling you in, till you see what i see.
segagaga 8y ago
Perfect example of both iamverysmart and Idiocracy, what with Jeff there being so smart that he's practically breeding himself into extinction.
fcmcmvii 8y ago
Deja vu. I just had one of these go-nowhere debates with a friend who parallels the guy OP knows.
For guys like this who argue, hamster, deny, blue pill, and top it off with proclamations of their intelligence, the infallibility of their logic, the superiority of their reasoning... What amazes me is that if they're so smart and superior, why is their life such a fucking mess?
Head in the sand. The "debate" finally petered out when the only reaction I could muster was bemusement. Which was not what he wanted.
DigitallyDisrupt 8y ago
Future mass murderer. I guarantee it.
mbillion 8y ago
Stop trying to convince people, there's no point. Seriously part of truly understanding is understanding that the world won't change just because you did. Go about your business and keep your business personal
Conceited-Monkey 8y ago
A lot of "smart" people are actually quite stupid, because they use their intellect to rationalize whatever crazy ideas they want.
KageRyu 8y ago
Well, I'm happy that you found some inspiration from my posts to help your friend. However, I only attempted to help him once and that was when I took him to the bar and talked to him. I left it all to him after that and waited to see if he'd call me back asking for help or if he'd just live his life as a bluepill and be taken advantage of by his now former fiance. If he didn't call me back, I'd know that he was a lost cause and I'd have given up on him. I suggest you do the same thing too. Attempt to help once or twice and then move on if he doesn't budge. Good luck.
Also, intellect doesn't mean anything if you can't apply it to better your life and his mental issues are preventing him from doing that. Try to help him out of his depression first and be a friend before you try to introduce him to TRP concepts.
[deleted] 8y ago
You have to really trickle RP truths to your friends if you want to help them. If you just go and unload the whole pill on them you are going to have a bad time.
And don't forget that a huge number of males are genetically predisposed to be like this. They are not supposed to mate. Humans have evolved with less than half of men reproducing.
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TheJedi_Lied 8y ago
He's got a point... you do vape.
In all seriousness, leave him plugged in. When he gets a oneitis go plow her while staring into your phones camera and flexing like Patrick Bateman.
Teach by example.
MakeEmSayAyy 8y ago
haha i said the vape thing before i saw your comment
[deleted] 8y ago
IQ of 120, what a fucking pleb
bgrinnie 8y ago
I slowly mentioned red pill advice to some of my closest friends without talking about this subreddit. After a few weeks we eventually ended up having an entire discussion about how our conventional knowledge about how men should behave in the modern world is based on lies. We all started agreeing about how much of what we have been taught will not get us anywhere in our career, happiness, or with women. I told them that it's the unconventional, masculine, and alpha type mindset that time and time again leads to greater success and can make you strive to be the best man you can be. They were speechless, one friend swallowed the pill so hard he didn't want to move onto another conversation. I finally proceeded to tell them about and send a link to this subreddit. I told them to take the subreddit in its entirety with a grain a salt, but that it's quite easy to discovery plenty of information that you can use to improve your life. A day later and they are very happy that I shared this hidden gem with them.
Drakonlord 8y ago
On the other end of the spectrum i itroduced a friend to trp and he took it so far as not even being my friend anymore.
I was competition to his bitches and he became extremely self centered, went with the full dark triad thing.
He went from a virgin to fucking like 11 girls in 8 months - but I lost a friend.
kamenr 8y ago
I put losers like this on my D-list and do not give them any of my precious time or attention.
Stick with the winners.
Stythe 8y ago
I've tried to enlighten people. They don't want to hear it. I'm in the camp of keeping my mouth shut. Occasionally I come across people who think like me and I actually enjoy the conversations we have. I'd rather enjoy the brief convos with those people or if possible build a friendship than try to convince others to see what I do. I'll drop a line at most amd if someone bites, cool. If not, I know what's up and play my part while living how I want.
Jedi5241000 8y ago
You must have recently discovered TRP. I remember when I first discovered TRP l couldn't shut up about it. But you'll realize soon enough that it's a waste of time trying to change people who don't wanna be changed
aazav 8y ago
Rule #1. The first rule of Fight Club is: You do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is: You do not talk about Fight Club.
It's not your job. People come around on their own or they don't.
bgrinnie 8y ago
It depends man, obviously still be careful who you share this information with. I was pretty beta growing up, but not really by choice. I just didn't know any better but I always knew something wasn't right. Starting college definitely changed my behavior to match what I had always known to be right. Last year my friend slowly introduced me to RP advice and I slowly looked into this subreddit. I would never have known about it if he didn't bring it up. I believe it has improved my life for sure. Maybe he was able to read into the type of person I am, I don't know. If you're hesitant to mention anything that might be good advice to a close friend because you're only 99% sure that they are going to respond positively, then you're just being afraid and beta quite frankly.