We talk a lot about "Frame Control", but many people misunderstand the term. I have noticed more and more people using the term generally, to mean something like "standing up for yourself", and more and more people asking about it on askTRP, because the overgeneralized use of the term has confused them as to its actual meaning.
Frame control isn't just conversational dominance. Frame control isn't just winning an argument. In fact, winning an argument without controlling the frame can be a very bad thing.
Frame is the process and context in which you interact with another person. It includes such things as the topic of discussion, the tone and manner of the speech, who is allowed to speak and when, and so.
Therefore, when we say "Frame Control", we do not simply mean standing up for yourself or not backing down. We mean control over the process of the conversation.
Example:
-
Lose Frame, Lose Argument
Larry Summers: There may be some inherent difference in mathematical ability between male and female populations.
Horde of Angry Feminists: Misogynist!
Larry Summers: I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry (resigns post). -
Lose Frame, Win Argument
MRA Larry Summers: There may be some inherent difference in mathematical ability between male and female populations.
Horde of Angry Feminists: Misogynist!
MRA Larry Summers: How dare you call me a misogynist? Here is my track of promoting female employees, donating to women's charities, promoting breast cancer research, etc, etc, etc.
Horde of Sheepish Feminists: Oops. - Control Frame
TRP Larry Summers: There may be some inherent difference in mathematical ability between male and female populations.
Horde of Angry Feminists: Misogynist!
TRP Larry Summers: We're talking about mathematical ability, not your feels about whatever you think my feels are. Do you have anything useful to add to this the discussion of mathematical ability, or are you just going to squawk like a wet chicken?
You see, in the second example, MRA Larry Summers has won a battle, but lost the war, because he has won the battle that his enemy picked for him to fight. The point he was trying to make it forgotten, because the feminists successfully derailed the conversation into a discussion of Larry Summers' feelings and implied moral worth. They have successful avoided the question of whether men and women differ in mathematical ability.
TRP Larry Summers displays frame control. He refuses to be drawn into the discussion that the feminists want to have. He is having the discussion he wants to have.
Without proper frame control, even a dominant conversationalist will lose out in the long run. This is because he can be drawn into discussions he doesn't want to have, and distracted from his own goals in the interaction.
The most critical form of frame control, as we shown in the example, is dealing with the accusation shit test. To directly confront and attempt to refute an accusation, even if wild successful, is a defeat, because you have:
- Allowed someone to steer the topic of conversation to something that has no good outcome for you.
- Shown that the accusation bothers you, which weakens your image.
In any conversation, the controller of the frame is the one who acts, rather than reacts. Many shit tests are, at their core, an attempt to push you into a reactive mode to see if it can be done.
Some Principles of Good Frame Control:
- Focus on your goal in the conversation, and focus what you say on that goal.
- Do not simply react to whatever anyone else says. Consider what direction you want the conversation to take, first.
- Do not cooperate with an attempt to change the subject unless it serves your goals.
- Ignore, call out, or laugh at accusations rather than denying or defending against them.
- Reward cooperation with your frame with active listening and positive reinforcement. Frame control does not mean monopolizing the conversation.
- Punish attempts to break your frame by ignoring the speaker or calling out the behaviour.
- Always finish your sentences. Ignore interruptions as if they did not happen. Be loud if necessary.
- Reward those who tolerate your (deliberate or accidental) interruptions by quickly finishing and then explicitly calling on them to finish their thoughts.
- Do not attempt to control the frame merely to control the frame. Have a frame in mind, and be only as controlling as you need to be in order to establish that frame.
- Do not hesitate to leave a conversation if circumstances render the frame uncontrollable. You lose more face by being dominated than you do by retreating to fight another day.

SmilingWatermelon 10y ago
Amazing post. Something I really needed to read.
bsutansalt 11y ago
Here's an example of physical frame control I found on /r/socialengineering. He just straight up dominates the guy into leaving without getting violent or overtly aggressive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGwOZSrFayI
IMO turn off the volume and watch the body language and the tons of arm and shoulder touching going on.
-Universe- 11y ago
How about telling them to shut up and not to interrupt? is that good frame control?
alphantares 11y ago
Excellent format. More side by side examples are needed.
PantsonFire1234 11y ago
You make one mistake. You're talking about 'controlling' a conversation. You lead a conversation. You don't look to control, you look to lead.
Women desire control over their surroundings because it suppresses their emotional insecurity. Control means forcing another party to yield to your demands. To lead means to give the other party the choice to follow.
The latter is the hallmark of any good leader. When people have a choice and choose you, that implies respect. Forcing people to yield to your demands breeds contempt, not respect. It's childish and doesn't befit a man. Basically you're slowly losing frame.
Strive to be a leader, not a controller.
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billcosbyeatsbabies 11y ago
Since OP's post is popular now, this would be an excellent change that could be made to improve the post so that people are not misled.
aptway 11y ago
It's better to be adamant about being wrong than timid about being right.
[deleted] 11y ago
The pressure flip is probably the most effective but challenging response to a girl who is quite the Machiavellian and strong frame. While we often call upon amused mastery to handle situations and indeed humor is a mature ego defense, amused mastery will often set someone who is hostile off in an even more negative down spiral. But if you can stop them in their tracks and get them to become self-conscious with a pressure flip, then you have won. Often times you can combine the pressure flip with humor to win.
example:
Her: "Are you gay?"
Agree & amplify/humor response: "Oh totally, me and my bro do anal on wednesdays"
Pressure Flip: "Why do you want some good blow job tips?"
example:
You: "Hey you're all kind of sexy girl, watsup?"
Her: [eyes roll] "Leave me alone"
Pressure flip: "Whats a matter, can't handle honest man? You probably can't handle an honest relationship"
If your frame is strong, she will become self-conscious and start thinking "Wait I do like honesty, I'm honest"
The thing is, pressure flips have to be snappy, said with conviction and very quick so as it fires off the tip of your tongue to immediately throw her under the bus. Any hesitation and it gives her a chance to pull out of the frame.
Master the pressure flip, and you're golden
edit: One response you can use in a lot of situations is "You wish." Its borderline not even a pressure flip but it does put it back onto her. It's a good way to get started but like anything its a tool and better responses have their places for different situations
cleftscout 11y ago
I am genuinely appreciate this post, especially with the edit. I've had trouble clearly explaining the concept of the pressure flip to friends I'm introducing into TRP. I've also been trying to integrate the pressure flip into my general speech more frequently, but aside from an uncharacteristic stroke of brilliance when not trying to be witty, wasn't sure how to begin.
Geleemann 11y ago
Another good response to the Gay one is "I'm not, but I fucked someone who is"
[deleted] 11y ago
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Ripred019 11y ago
And when they call you out on the fact that you just said something that makes no sense?
[deleted] 11y ago
When hitting on a girl and she responds with "You wish", it is easy to imagine agree & amplify response.
What would be a good pressure flip response for you?
[deleted] 11y ago
Though I never had a girl pull the "you wish" on me. some standard ones you could say that are a little more prosaic than situational witty pressure flips: "You practice that line on all guys don't you" or "Haha you project a lot girl (if she's half smart)"
But once you calibrate to certain situations you can be more witty and go beyond the ones I just mentioned. Anytime you make a sexual comment and the girl tries to back out of the frame and force frame you, for instance, you say "Let's get out of here" but she responds with "No you're just going to try to have sex with me and that's not happening" the key is to play their game of plausible deniability and accuse them of being sexually minded "Sex? umm who said anything about that? LOL We know whats on your mind little girl"
Whenever at all times possible keep the frame that you are the prize and she is the one after you.
Nieben 11y ago
Your second example seems weak at best, but the first one seems pretty solid. I'd even go as far as to say, as an addendum to the first one, "You could try your skills on me and I could give you feedback."
My own personal flair would be, "...though my feedback might be muddled with moans." (With a shit-eating grin.)
[deleted] 11y ago
I could only give the second one an example because I tested it myself to have worked. I've tried other things to a cold response like "I bet you do that to all the guys", "Hey do me a favor girl (point to my mouth) smile!", or just plowing with whatever. All with varying degrees of success. The honesty bit seems to catch them off guard for some reason, like they aren't used to hearing something like that out at night like it interrupts their thought pattern. Who knows. Its worth at try if nothing else works on a cold girl.
rp_valiant 11y ago
pattern interrupt is a very effective tool for influencing people and bringing them into your frame. Anything unexpected throws the other person into a temporary state that's susceptible to suggestion.
666Evo 11y ago
How would you use "You wish." in the "Are you gay?" situation?
Or is that test a bit above the beginner level so it would be more prudent to A&A or withdraw altogether?
sir_wankalot_here 11y ago
Stop eyeballing my cock big boy it is starting to get me all excited. Its OK come out of the closet big boy, sucking my cock doesn't make you any less of a man.
[deleted] 11y ago
I've actually used it in that situation but just talk past it after you say it. Even though it doesn't make sense at a logical level, underneath the hamster she is wondering "what did he mean by that, why did he say that" Truth is there was no rhyme or reason. But confusion and mental dominance is a huge part of seducing a girl. Saying and doing things that oppose one another just feeds into their chick crack man.
I personally like the Pressure flip better
White_Phillip 11y ago
Women care less about the actual words and more about the meaning behind them. I've found you can say shit that doesn't make a lick of sense, but they'll eat it up if you say it the right way.
666Evo 11y ago
Right. So pressure flip is more about trying to force a state of confused hamster than it is forcing a conscious self-analysis.
More "What did he mean?!" than "Was he right about me?".
I can see how that could be of benefit. Forcing a conscious (or even subconscious) self-analysis takes her mind off you and onto herself, however momentarily. Confusing the hamster will keep her focused on what you meant and what you think of her.
Appreciate the clarification. I understand terms like A&A and pressure flip conceptually, but putting them into the context of a personal interaction has been difficult!
asymptotic_salvation 11y ago
It's more that a pressure flip can have various successful effects, each with pros and cons.
Conscious self-analysis is far more profound than just being confused for a number of reasons, the biggest being Mastery. Patrice O'neal makes a great point on an episode of his Black Phillip show when he says that you need to Pimp her mind.
However, with Mastery (of anything of worth) comes difficulty, and this kind of pressure flip often requires a greater level of social awareness and wit on your part.
On the other hand, inducing confusion need not necessarily be witty and thus difficult (see "You Wish" response for example) but you're unlikely to get the hamster wheel spinning if she's not invested enough in what you're saying (see confidence, SMV etc).
A beta could make a passing comment that could reveal something about a woman to herself, but his vague retort is unlikely to bother her for long.
[deleted] 11y ago
Great post, great examples. One question: if the conversation is too boring/flat, is it advantageous to try and be bombastic, so long as you can hold the frame?
MentORPHEUS Senior Endorsed 11y ago
This is an important concept in verbal judo. Communication often has several layers, many of which are unspoken presuppositions. Manipulative people get you to respond to the presupposition, and they've won the discussion.
sir_wankalot_here 11y ago
Basically you lead the other person into a trap, where what ever answer he gives is the wrong answer. Usually you do this by asking provocative questions to cause the person to become emotional.
The PC has this down to a science.
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Gawernator 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beg_a_question
Ultimativity 11y ago
Great examples. There are people at my office who disagree by stating, "help me understand blah blah blah." I ignore their request and ask them, "what is it that you want?"
If they can't answer confidently, I know they aren't sure what they want. They just want to criticize my work without contributing anything. In that case, I tell them, if you come up with a better way, then tell us. Otherwise, let's move on."
YouDislikeMyOpinion 11y ago
Your frame is how you live your life, what you allow around you and what you do not.
Watch Ayn Rand hold her frame: https://youtu.be/3u8Jjth81_Q?t=1665 Shit test after shit test and she just holds frame.
[deleted] 11y ago
damn that's impressive. all that crowd and even the host pressuring her to conform to their views. none of them actually recognized the passive aggressive nature of the question?
Nieben 11y ago
I honestly think this example shouldn't be an impressive feat but rather an example of a norm. I suppose you can't just build a frame out of strictly theoreticals but rather through vast experience.
That being said - for all others reading, GET THE FUCK OUT THERE, PLAY THE FIELD AND IMPROVE YOURSELF PSYCHOLOGICALLY. (Not just physically through lifting!)
billcosbyeatsbabies 11y ago
Excellent frame right there.
RedSugarPill 11y ago
I watched right up until she called the entire state of Palestine savages. Kind of lost interest there..
YouDislikeMyOpinion 11y ago
Savage (noun) (chiefly in historical or literary contexts) - a member of a people regarded as primitive and uncivilized.
I don't know enough about the topic to debate it. I can say that this was the definition of savage that she used.
RedSugarPill 11y ago
"Savage" said the philosopher to the
literary historians.third wave feminist mothers skipping their family obligations to attend a taping of Phil Donahue.sir_wankalot_here 11y ago
MRA and other groups lose the fight every time because they never fight on the grounds that equal opportunity does not mean equality.
Two guys that are great with holding frame are Trump and Putin. Trump is a self serving bastard in my opinion but you have to admire him.
Both Putin and Trump have managed to snatch victory out of the jaws of defeat repeatedly because they held frame. Trump with his countless bankruptcy, Putin with what he pulled off in Crimea.
emt03gh 11y ago
I've been looking for something like this. I recently started a LTR and get a shit test every now and again. I used to wig the fuck out everytime I would end up in an argument now. I've been holding frame and been pulling a 75% to 85% on the 16 commandments of poon and it has been going very well..Except in the mornings I'm a major bitch in the mornings. Do any of you gentlemen have any ideas?
[deleted] 11y ago
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billcosbyeatsbabies 11y ago
Yep. Buy good quality running shoes, use em often. Before you go to bed, fill a large glass of water and put it beside your bed. As soon as you get up, drink it. Not sure why it works but it wakes me up faster. Shia labeoufs motivational video helps me out a lot to get shit done too actually. Hes quite inspiring.
cleftscout 11y ago
The most ambiguous situation that I have found is when speaking with a superior, i.e. a higher level manager at work, and another manager shows up and interrupts me to tell the first manager something important. What is a good thing to do in that situation? I generally have decent frame control, but the majority of my managers are women, who feel their opinion necessary and important to blurt out whenever it comes into their head, even if they are not involved in the conversation.
Most of the workers recognize that they are rude, but none of us feel we can do much about it.
[deleted] 11y ago
The problem is you have female managers. Never have female managers, it is below your dignity as a man, change work.
frys180 11y ago
Yeah sure he'll get right on that!
cleftscout 11y ago
I'd appreciate if you could give me some tips on how to make as much as I do now whilst in between jobs in a small town. It's beneath my dignity to choose to not have a job over chosong to work for an income.
If you are willing to assist me in living by your standards, mail me a check. Otherwise, you can offer some advice to my situation other than for me to blame others. That's below my dignity as a man
[deleted] 11y ago
There's always a way. Start asking around for another opportunity or move location if you have the possibility. I've had all the jobs people consider "shit jobs", but I prefer that to having a female boss. I'd much rather make less if the option is having a female manager.
I don't know much about your situation and your skills to give advice that would be useful to you, but having a female boss will slowly eat away your soul. It's not natural.
cleftscout 11y ago
Women are in the workplace. I work a job cleaning out foreclosed homes where I fear stepping on used herion needles. I work with a few chicks there too. A great man is the leader in that line of work, but hours can be very, very infrequent.
Working in a fast food place, office, home or almost anywhere in a modern society isn't exactly "natural." Hunting and gathering is the work men do that is natural. My female boss (the highest level in the building, still below other men is my favorite employee at the place. She does her job extremely well and is great at motivating all the employees and resolving conflicts that have happened or haven't begun yet. She does her job well. Since I'm not doing my naturally chosen job (at my age, I'd already have a few kids that I would be stabbing a deer to feed rather than typing his right now,) I'd like to adapt to my current one, where I am rapidly approaching taking their positions, just as human have adapted to work unnatural jobs.
My question was about some of the female managers and how to maintain frame, which spills over into other situations. Had they been rude men, I would have asked the same question. So pretend I didn't include their sex in my initial post and refer my question to someone else.
look_good 11y ago
Thanks for the reminder. We're allowed to dismiss irrelevant questions tactfully used to derail us. I don't consciously do this enough.
_whistler 11y ago
Frame is who you are. Frame is where you live. Frame is who owns your balls.
S_0ci0path 11y ago
That's beautiful. I always wondered how I could keep frame but at the same time be charming and less of a douchebag. This has changed my perspective on frame. I believe frame is a solipsistic mentality. In essence,
momomotorboat 11y ago
These are the kinds of substantive posts I love to read.
BobBobCan 11y ago
Is 'frame control' essentialy the same thing as 'presence of mind' ?
[deleted] 11y ago
I've found presence of mind to be underpowered and would much rather have blaZing speed as my first tier talent choice
SkorchZang 11y ago
Very much so. Think of a long tapestry from the middle ages, lots of knights on horses and shit like that, documenting invasions, beheadings... all embroidered on it - and it is all telling a story. What happened to what King, etc.
Now imagine you took a good look at this tapestry, this thing that goes on for room after room, after room at the museum. And you found your one favorite part, cut away everything else and then claimed to your buddy that this is the whole tapestry, and moreover you are the actual King that it shows kicking everyone's else's asses.
This metaphor shows you pretty exactly what always happens (naturally, without any special frame techniques) in conversation, with perspectives and points of view. There is always going to be that struggle going on between your story and someone else's.
Is that because one of these stories is objectively false? Far from it, instead it's usually because noone has the time to unravel the entire tapestry. The conclusions are already made, set in stone. Everyone already picked THEIR favorite part, and they are now here to push it in your face, make you accept that this is the tapestry. Even if they are meticulously truthful in their representation of what's on the actual tapestry cutaway part (never happens, but suppose it did), it is still always only a part of it. One that they specifically selected to make their point.
This is where the idea of Frame Control comes from. You start picking up on when others try to shift the frame and take away the spotlight from your favorite part of the big tapestry, to instead put it on their own favorite part, where their stupid ideas may well make perfect sense. And then you don't let them do it. You instead force or invite them into your frame, and keep them there. It's almost inevitable that they will see things your way if they stay in your frame long enough, especially true with women who are like children and tend to accept any strong frame that is offered them, as if it's self-evident truth.
Obviously this can be used for good or for evil, that's up to you.
aherne18 11y ago
Amazing response! Almost incredible to hear people at least as intelligent as I am. Never thought they exist, but here I found so many that I hardly need to say anything:)...
I can weave the tapestry in an opposite manner saying of same reality: we don't have to demonstrate Frame Control to others, we can simply ignore those dishonest to us. As for women throwing shit at us, we can simply ignore their antics and... keep on touching them with obvious sexual intent (our purpose being just their pussy)*. The way tapestry can be weaved is endless...
Losing frame, either by defending yourself or attacking as a cornered animal, isn't just detrimental to how others see you, it also strikes a blow to your self-image. We all KNOW when we are defeated, no matter how many excuses we are making for ourselves...
BobBobCan 11y ago
Alright, good example there.
I really don't label things as good or evil. I much prefer to see events(and results of these) and then form a moral code that is as fluid as my circumstances allows them to be. Amoral you could say.
But is it necessary to establish frame control outwardly or is inwardly enough? Usually I nod and agree with people to whatever they might say. Mostly because their opinion doesn't matter to me in the long run or simply because I find most people to be resistive to argumentative communication. I've found it more effective to just 'enter their spirit' to lower their resistance and then subtly turn them over. Inwardly I am very well aware and in control of my own duplicity. But I guess this indeed is frame control, although in a passive and indirect sense.
SkorchZang 11y ago
If you've got "no irons in the oven" in a certain conversation or interaction, then I don't see what's the point of expending all that energy on controlling what you called "the outward frame". Unless you're doing it to practice your skill, or ambiently make a dominant impression on some women present during the convo, it might just be a waste of effort. Good old smile and nod, smile and nod.
[deleted] 11y ago
This is what I always say (sometimes even to my girlfriend, but that's of course futile. I'm not enough RP yet, really).
It all depends on context, who controls the context, and switching of context.
In certain contexts my girlfriend is always right. But place the situation in a different context, and she's all wrong, because she has no control there.
Thanks to OPs definition/redefinition/explanation of "frame", I see now fully that what I have called "context" up to now, is simply frame.
SkorchZang 11y ago
TRP nabbed the idea of holding frame from psychology and neurolinguistic programming, simply because it's so crucial when dealing with women & their shit testing. It was originally deployed to help with sales and similar, where it's quite useful. It's got lots of different names in the field, all meaning the same thing - I'm certain I saw "context" being used to refer to the same concept in the literature before, so you're far from alone in that terminology and basic insight.
Beats me which of them is simpler or better, the latin "context" or the colloquial "frame control", but hey the name stuck on TRP and acquired a hallowed sort of status, so doesn't hurt to just run with it.
[deleted] 11y ago
The concept in itself is more important than the name by any means. OP just made me realize I'm talking about the same thing. For some time I was reading TRP and thinking of my concept of context and now it completely fits together. I just need to work more on executing. My GF is like she has a PhD in shit testing. I'm quite good at keeping frame with her but sometimes she obliterates it completely. One one side she's pretty intelligent, but on the other not the brightest bulb in the socket. If she wasn't so good at shit testing or getting control of the frame she would lose out every argument to me because logic.
I always say "Just because logic has been shoved into the corner doesn't meant it isn't still valid over there". But that is exactly what women do. They switch off logic (or have none in the first place) and it's like you're talking to an alien who is simply so far removed from your concepts that you are not able to influence it with your own logic or make it understand something.
Then she drags me to the pure emotional level and before I even realize it I've lost frame control in the situation. Another way to put it is she isn't always right in the end, but she believes so strongly that she is, combined with the frame control she just ripped out of my guts, that she comes out as the winner. Then retroactively re-hamsters the whole argument in such a way that it seems as if she has been right all along.
And my GF is so good at all this that she manages to do all of this in one step with a slam-dunk sentence which then ends the argument. Well, what a life I have.
SkorchZang 11y ago
Ha, that's delicious dude. Keep up the good fight.
From a red pill perspective, we know that a woman normally does not want logic, she wants to be charmed, teased and ultimately, dominated. Holding frame is one way to dominate a woman's entire world, often with delicious results to be enjoyed by both parties.
When it's your LTR, of course you'll have to drop some logic from time to time as well - it's 100% the man's natural responsibility to educate and "bring up" his woman the way he wants her to be, which includes giving her that new option (of being more logical) that she may've never had before in her feels-based worldview. She will resist out of pride, but surrender out of love, and then praise you for teaching her those things "those other miserable bitches will never get".
[deleted] 11y ago
Yeah she's LTR, we're together now for almost 5 years. And I'll admit it - a was a whiny bluepill idiot for a very long time, and for the most part in this relationship.
Whenever she'd shit test me, disrespect my ways or ignore me, my thinking was (it's pretty shameful really) "Why in gods name doesn't she just see that what she's saying is wrong / why doesn't she simply 'see' that I'm doing enough to be respected?"
Classic pathetic blue pill. Now, I'm not saying I've become Chad by now, but I know now that it's my responsibility to make her see stuff. It just doesn't work any other way. Without me doing it she will never come to understand it on her own. That's just how it works. It also has an entertaining side. Mastery is pretty enjoyable once you get the hang of it. And again I'm not saying I'm a master of Mastery, but one thing is clear, if I want to stay with her (and she has a lot of redeeming qualities): she has a PhD in Shit Testing, so I need to acquire one in Mastery and holding frame.
I now see it as an exercise (lifting comes to mind, which I still need to pick up).