Settle in fellas, pull up a chair, get yourself a cup of whatever you drink (I recommend white tea with no sugar) and get comfortable. This is a long post., and there's no TL;DR because I can't condense it enough for it to be worth it.
So I got down to reading that EMSK post for about the 10th time, because there was always something a little... off about it in my mind, something I couldn't place, and if I feel like that, I know I'm not the only one. Now, other people have responded to this post, particularly u/StuffDoer's popular (and rightly so) post a month or so ago, but I couldn't find a post that actively went through it point by point and talked about each one. Some people might think that the post has been done to death and just wish we'd stop going back to it, but I thought that something like this could be of benefit to newer people who're still wavering.
Also, this post deals more with LTR-oriented stuff, as the original EMSK doesn't talk about PUA stuff, so my response won’t either.
To give context to this post, here's a link to the EMSK post on Archive.Today, and here is the same post in redditlog.
TL;DR: It's unfair that men suffer from sexual strategy, but that doesn't make it okay to flip it and make women suffer instead. No one deserves to be emotionally abused.
For the record, I disagree with u/TalShar. Nobody deserves to be abused full stop, but that doesn't make it "unfair" that men suffer from sexual strategy, because it's not applied unfairly. The application of sexual strategy is universal, across men and women (and others), and I can't think of a fairer system. What we're saying is that it's unfair that men aren't taught about it - it's just expected that they'll know when the teaching of such principles is being discouraged as "unfair" (ironic, isn't it?) and the teachers derided as "stuck in the past". That is where the suffering comes from.
[Edits 3 and 5 removed because they're not relevant].
Now, let's get started.
Foreword: I realize that this isn't your typical EMSK entry, but I view it as essential advice to any man who wants to be happy in a heterosexual relationship. Nothing against men who want to be in a non-hetero relationship either; this is just addressing those who may be getting pulled in by the "Red Pill" philosophy.
Ok, we're getting off on the right foot here. u/TalShar is laying out his reason for writing this, and also talking about who it applies to. I wish to do the same:
I realise that this might not be your typical Red Pill entry, but I view it as essential advice to any man who has read the EMSK post that spawned it, and was couldn't help but feel that there was still something there in TRP, that they couldn't quite put their finger on, but there nonetheless. This isn't addressing those who are "already red", as it were, though you are of course welcome here. It's simply addressing u/TalShar and those who agreed with his post on what I believe to be the strengths and weaknesses of his post.
For the uninitiated, "Red Pill" is a term co-opted by the types of people who frequent [Link to TRP] (enter at your own risk, lots of lady-hate in there).
Alright, fair enough, there are quite a few posters here still getting over the anger phase, and it's understandable that they want to express their feelings. Personally, I do think that we could do with toning it down. A post that is just venting is all well and good, but unless it's contributing something worthwhile and not just "women are all whores and I hate them", I don't think it belongs in TRP. Not sure where it could be directed (except toward lifting), but we need to keep it a bit lower-key.
It's a reference to The Matrix, in which Morpheus offers Neo a choice of one of two pills... a blue pill, which will make him forget and allow him to contentedly go back to a life of brainwashed mediocrity, or a red pill, which will wake him up to an unpleasant truth but grant him great power.
Well, yes. This is the intent of the name of the subreddit. It's a little tongue-in-cheek, as we explicitly don't believe it gives you "great power" (<facetious> that's NoFap's domain</facetious>), but do believe that it gives you the information needed to do your best in the world in which we live. TRP doesn't believe in an "alternate world" that you access by accepting it, it believes in "pulling back the curtain" of the world you live in.
The idea of the "Red Pill" as is commonly used now, is that men are constantly losing a war of what [link to TRP] users refer to as "Sexual strategy." Essentially the premise is that women have what we want (sex), and they can make us bend over backwards to get it. They have us wrapped around their little fingers. Those who "take the Red Pill" awaken to their true male potential and learn to get what they want without having to submit and forfeit their masculinity.
I don't see how this is a bad thing. According to the premise of TRP, refusing to let others take advantage of you is a good thing, and women have been taking advantage of men who don't know better is what TRP prevents.
The subreddit is rife with success stories from men who claim they've gotten what they want out of their relationship. One guy claims (and I'm paraphrasing), "She does my laundry and dishes, we have sex whenever I want, and she knows that I don't belong to her, and if she ever slips up or takes me for granted, she’s gone."
It's not that I doubt what he's saying. I believe it. The problem is, what he's describing is emotional abuse.
Now on this account I must disagree, because there's not enough data. The poster didn't mention, and TalShar isn't trying to find out, why a woman would tolerate such a situation. It couldn't be that she's happy with it, could it? It couldn’t be that she's getting the benefits of an LTR with a guy who she genuinely likes, and sees doing the dishes/laundry as an act of love? Maybe she's a woman who's willing to work at a relationship, and the poster hasn't discussed what he brings to the table (and you better believe he's bringing something, else she'd be out of there faster than a hamster out of cage) The other thing I wanted to focus on from this paragraph is:
if she ever slips up [snip], she’s gone.
TRP teaches that this applies equally to males. Failure to hold frame, showing weakness, giving in to her shit-tests, all of these will lead to her becoming less attracted to you, and once it gets to a certain point, leaving. Is it emotional abuse to say that you'll drop a woman if she doesn't perform? Maybe, but since a "slip up" is likely to be something major (like kissing another man) and not "I haven't ironed your shirts because I had a visit from my friend that took longer than I anticipated", it's hardly the massive issue u/TalShar makes it out to be.
What the Red Pill advocates is taking advantage of common weak points in the typical female psyche (most of which are present in your typical male psyche as well; everyone has weak points, and most of them are common to all humans, though some are more pronounced in one sex or another) to put pressure on women and bend them to your will. Users advise doing things like keeping her guessing, changing what you want and then berating her for not keeping up with your whims.
Yup. TRP advocates taking advantage of women to bend them to your will. It absolutely says "the best basis for a good relationship is Stockholm Syndrome". It doesn't say "she does it because you make her happy and she wants to reciprocate". When we tell people to "Be clear, but most importantly, be *decisive. Make a plan and stick to it", we are absolutely advocating "changing what you want" and "whimsy".
Several advise that you never show affection for her unless she’s done something to please you.
Yes and no. Positive reinforcement is great, but we don't say "don't send her random little gifts as surprises". I've never once seen a post on TRP saying "women hate to receive a bouquet of flowers without doing anything to deserve it." Also, is u/TalShar saying "never initiate" or "you should show affection even when she's not behaving"? For the record, I think that they aren't, but the statement was a little ambiguous (that could be our fault too).
You break them like you'd break an animal.
My mind is struggling to comprehend where this came from. We advocate treating her like you would a child - gently, rewarding good behaviour, and making it clear through our lack of reaction that she won't get anywhere with bad behaviour. This is akin to saying "You must break a child like you would an animal". No. Just no.
And it's damned effective in some cases. It'll get you what you want if you do it right.
Including if what you want is a stable, happy, loving marriage. Thanks go to Ian Ironwood and Dalrock for proving that TRP and marriage are more than compatible, certainly more than our detractors (and some of our own) claim. It's just a shame that "doing it right" isn't what u/TalShar thinks it is.
But you shouldn't want that, and here's why.
...I shouldn't want to get what I want? I shouldn't want to know how to get what I want? I shouldn't want to know how to keep a woman happy in the long term? u/TalShar re-frames it as "red pillers abuse people to get what they want", but that's not what we do. Sure, there are people like that, but that's because there are people like that in every walk of life. It's not that TRP makes X% of its readers assholes, but that X% of people generally are assholes, and this applies to TRP as much as anywhere else.
The Red Pill subreddit is also full of "Blue Pill Stories," in which guys get emotionally abused by their girlfriends. They lament being used for their money, their homes, their emotional support, what have you, and then being left when they weren't "Alpha" enough to keep their girlfriends around. It's a shame, it really is. Nobody deserves that kind of abuse.
Ok, it's emotional abuse when women use a man for commitment without providing sex and leave when they've had their fill. That much we agree on. I also think we could do with reducing the number of "blue pill" stories we have submitted - yes, it's great that you've found another example of a man who's behaviour is something we want to avoid. I'll just add it to the rest of the examples we already have.
"Nobody" includes women, though. What the Red Pill strategy does is flip that power dynamic on its head. When it works, now it's the man who is in power and the woman who is suffering. The man gets the sex without having to commit any real effort to the relationship, aside from making sure that his SO's emotions are brutally crushed on a regular basis. You haven't fixed anything, you've only made sure it's your SO who's suffering and not you.
Ah. Ah. I had wondered when we were going to get to this bit. The whole "Red Pill behaviour makes her suffer" argument. You seem to think that it's a dichotomy - either the woman is in power and the man is suffering, or it's the other way around, and the only other option is what you propose. My rebuttal to this is that there is no reason that the man being the more dominant one (yes, the one "in power", but that phrase doesn't convey the subtleties of a relationship dynamic) necessarily means that the woman will suffer, especially if the man is a proponent of TRP. Additionally, the man most certainly does have to commit effort to the relationship - it's how he keeps her happy (and willing to provide sex). The idea that you, her emotional rock, would attempt to crush her emotions, is beyond absurd. In fact, it's crossing the line between distortion of the facts to fit your agenda (everyone does that) and outright lying about the other side. That's called propaganda, and I am disappointed that you resorted to it.
And the reason she stays is the same reason Blue Pill guys stay in their relationships: They don't want to be alone.
Actually, the reason most Blue Pill guys stay in their relationship appears to be the hope that if they just appease her enough she'll give them more sex. Sure, some stay because they don't want to be alone, but a dog takes care of that quite handily (apart from the sex, you perverts), leaving sex as the only reason that a lot stay - it's because as little as they get now, they've been conditioned to believe that a) this is normal b) they shouldn't ask for more and c) they won't get any at all if they leave, and some is better than none.
And as long as you keep that power dynamic active, you will never know what love is. Because love means that you feel what your lover feels. If she hurts, you hurt. If you hurt her, you feel all of her pain and all of the shame for knowing that you're the one that caused it.
So what you're saying is that if your woman is
If you really love someone, you'll never want to hurt them.
Absolutely true. However, TRP doesn't advocate "hurting" anyone, any more than it advocates "controlling" them.
And make no mistake, that's what the Red Pill is: cold, calculated, systematic emotional torture meant to produce a desired response.
Really? Could you please give evidence of this? I mean, as far as I could tell, that's never been what this sub is. How is making yourself more desirable through working out emotional torture? How is ignoring a woman's attempts to manipulate you emotional torture? If anything, it's refusing to succumb to emotional torture. You know what emotional torture is? When a man deliberately utterly annihilates a woman's self esteem so that she will sleep with him. Treating her like a normal person who doesn't get special treatment until they've earned it is emotional torture? Ye gods, I don't think you know what emotional torture is!
Methods like keeping your prisoner guessing, changing what you want, keeping them off balance, those are all interrogation techniques meant to break your prisoner down on a mental and emotional level and produce a compliant charge.
keeping your prisoner guessing, changing what you want
That sounds suspiciously similar to a shit test to me. As far as I can tell, Red Pill men tend to be forthright about what they want, and it rarely changes. It's the same as what every man wants - regular, passionate sex, loyalty, and love. I'd like to see some evidence of where TRP actually says "the best way to make a woman stay with you is to mentally abuse her and break her will". As far as I was aware, the core tenet of TRP is "You cannot force a woman to want you, but you can make yourself something that she wants." As a way of giving an equivalent example, I personally do not like the texture of cheese. However, if you melt it, the texture changes and I'm fine with it. You cannot force me to like it, but you can change it so I like it. Is this not a self-sacrificing thing to do? To work to change ourselves for the benefit of others (because let's be honest, most of us wouldn't work out if we hadn't realised that women want a guy who does - no matter what TRP says about "do it for yourself", a lot of us started for the female attention) - is that not a triumph of putting the wants of others before your own?
Put quite simply, someone couldn't ever do such a thing to someone they truly loved.
I agree. If you love someone, you won't emotionally abuse them. You will, however, be their rock, their bastion of safety, and their lighthouse in the darkness. You will not attempt to deceive them, nor will you physically abuse them. If you love someone, you will understand how to keep them happy, and TRP equips you to do this.
There is one thing that Red Pill has right. Sexual strategy sucks. But the solution isn't getting better at it than your SO is. The solution is agreeing with one another that you're not going to play the game. If a game is going to always suck for one player, and both players care about one another, they're going to find a better game to play.
Again, no. TRP explicitly doesn't say "sexual strategy sucks". It says "This is what sexual strategy is" and leaves it to us to make value judgements. u/TalShar also assumes that people can "not play the game". In the (slightly mis-remembered, I have no doubt) words of Robert Greene, "You can't choose not to play."
You want a healthy, stable relationship that is going to be rewarding? Here's the secret. Remember that your SO is just as complex, intelligent and vulnerable a human being as you are. She has needs just like you do. While she might place different values on her various needs, while she might express them differently, they're every bit as important to her as yours are to you.
Now, this is interesting, because it's exactly what we say. We acknowledge that women also have needs, but the difference is that they're different to a man's needs. She needs emotional stability, reliability, security and occasionally, for someone else to take the reins completely and let her relax. You might need these things too from time to time, but it can't be from her. It can be your buddies, your parents, your brothers, but not your wife. TIL not putting emotional baggage on someone you love is "mental torture".
Life is a war. But if you want to win it, you and your SO need to be on the same side.
Again, we don't disagree. We just disagree on what will cause her to stick by you.
You don't need to break your girlfriend or wife. You need to talk to them. If they're doing something that hurts you, you need to tell them. And not "I wish you would quit that." Tell them "This hurts me when you do that." If they care about you, they'll take action to prevent causing you pain. To position and strategize to get what you want out of your marriage is to deny your most potent asset: An intelligent human being who cares about you and wants to see you happy above all else, and who wants to be happy alongside you.
Again, you started off promising, and then it all went to hell after the first sentence.
And if you don't have that in your SO, you either need to get to that point or get out. There are many, many worse things than being single. One of them is being in an abusive or emotionally vacant relationship (on either side, abuser or victim). Don't view your time as being single as a sexless desert. View it as a time to grow and realize who you are. You need to be able to define yourself as an individual before you’re ready for a relationship.
Human beings are as diverse as life on this planet. For every type, there is a countertype. There is someone out there for just about everyone. However, none of your relationships will work out in a healthy manner until you realize that women are people too, not animals to be broken. You don't need to be an Alpha. You're not a damned dog. You're a human being. Human beings can communicate complex concepts, rebel against their base instincts to find better ways of doing things, and above all, reflect on their actions and empathize. You don't need to establish dominance, you just need to find somebody that's willing to actively pursue your happiness alongside their own; and you need to be willing to do the same for them. If you're not ready to do that, you're not ready to have a healthy relationship.
There is not "someone out there for just about everyone". There are people who you wouldn't mind spending the rest of your life with, but that sounds a little close to "you'll find someone who loves you for who you are, you don't need to change!" territory, and we all know where that road goes.
I may not be a dog, but I am a social animal, and like all social animals, there is a social heirarchy, with the people on the top taking the lion's share of everything. You also misunderstand the concept of dominance. Sure, it means being the once in charge. It also means being the one with all the responsibility, the one who has to bear the weight of their problems alone, that those under them might be free of such a burden. Dominance is listening to those you lead, because they do have good ideas, and to discount them because you didn't have them is a bad thing.
But there's good news... Something else human beings are good at is changing. You want someone to be willing to change for you, you have to make sure you're willing to change yourself a bit. Everything's a two-way street. Just make sure you're changing for the better. Being willing to change doesn't mean flopping over and doing whatever is asked of you. Here, change is a bad word for this. Be willing to improve yourself. Nobody's perfect. Spot those places that need work (I assure you, they're there, and if you can't spot them, I guarantee the people around you can), and start improving on those things.
This paragraph is pure gold. You must be willing to constantly strive for improvement on your terms. You shouldn't just give in to demands, you should strive to better yourself every day. Nobody is perfect. Accept this. Good stuff, u/TalShar.
In order to have a healthy relationship, you have to be a healthy human being first. A healthy human being doesn't use sexual strategy. You'll only ever have a healthy relationship if both parties refuse to play that game.
Once more, the first five seconds of Save Me express my disappointment. This isn't War Games. This is your high school's PhysEd lessons. You play whether you like it or not, the only thing you get to choose is how well you do, and the first step is to accept that you're playing.
I mentioned earlier that Morpheus's "Red Pill" was originally symbolism for awakening, both to truth and to power, while the "Blue Pill" was a metaphor for staying asleep and maintaining the status quo.
In truth, the Red Pill as they represent it isn't a true awakening at all. It's a capitulation to a false dichotomy. A true awakening is realizing that the people around you are more than just faces, that they all have their own stories, their own thoughts, hopes and dreams, and that they are just as complex as you are. A true awakening is realizing that you don't have to win the fight (and thereby habitually hurt someone you ostensibly care about), or lose it. That you can take your ball and go home.
First off, there is not "fight". There is no "win" (I will address in the next bit). We already know women are as complicated as men are - probably more so. However, what we didn't understand was how they differed, and how to accept and deal with that. TRP does not say "she must give up on her dreams to be with you". TRP does not say "she is worthless except as a silent, submissive, sexthing". TRP does not say "women aren't complicated". TRP says "you're not the only one who has to work at a relationship."
The Morpheus of sexual strategy is offering you two pills: Red and blue. Win sexual strategy, or lose it.
Not really. Sexual strategy is something that "is", not something that you "win" or "lose". Sure, it has precepts for better outcomes (of two otherwise identical men, the richer/more muscular/more confident/taller {delete as appropriate} will be more desirable), but those aren't "win conditions" because you don't "win" sexual strategy.
Punch him in the face and tell him you're not playing his bullshit game.
Once again, there is no "opt out" button. You can punch morpheus all you like, but don't expect things to change because of it.
CheesyFedora 11y ago
You forget that women are special little snowflakes and not treating them like they're special is "emotional torture"
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Hunter__Wallace 11y ago
Quality post. You should post this in that thread, if you haven't already.
IVIaskerade 11y ago
Eh, it's 3 months old. I try not to be a threadomancer if I can avoid it.
Hunter__Wallace 11y ago
Yes, but it's highly voted and will still be seen many, many more times.
IVIaskerade 11y ago
I'm going to say it here because the post was a bit long, and I like to keep the end short and punchy:
Thanks to whoever took my gold virginity! I'm not certain what I'm going to do with it yet, but I'm having warm fuzzy feelings inside just looking at it!
I'm listening to L'Estasi Dell'Oro on repeat in your honour.
MagnanimousGenius 11y ago
Great post, shame none of the detractors will take a moment to actually read through this and consider your view point
[deleted] 11y ago
Thank you for this. I was bothered by his post because it sounded alright, but it was very false.
Also the comments! As a RPW it kinda makes me laugh when they claim we are either abused or actually male to stay with an Alpha. No my husband treats me like I am precious. I'm his princess, and he's my king. I'm happy. I couldn't have found a better match, we are perfect for each other. I think LTR strategy is really a very important part of the RedPill that are not discussed a lot when we are hated on in other subs. RP in LTR has led to greater stability and happiness for both parties.
ENTP 11y ago
Also: you can punch morpheus in the face but then you're just stuck in the matrix.
Cacciaguida 11y ago
we should have a (Weekly, monthly?) vent thread, anyone who vents out of place should be redirected to that thread.
IVIaskerade 11y ago
Weekly. We're an active enough sub that a monthly thread would get buried, and having multiple stickied threads at the top isn't what we want - most internet people's attention spans don't extend that far.
ENTP 11y ago
Its not so much about "controlling" as it is giving your woman enough confidence in you to be comfortable in doing things your way.
Ill_mumble_that 11y ago
Even acknowledging our retarded detractors is giving them more attention than they deserve. Talshars post was shit. Do you save other peoples shit and show it to friends and talk about it in lengthy posts? Fuck no, you flush that shit down the toilet and move on.
Don't give this kind of attention to detractors and haters. They are loud and whiny because they have no value and cant get attention through more constructive efforts. Like a typical feminist, they squeak louder and louder until a man comes along to solve their problems or give them attention.
IVIaskerade 11y ago
It's more for those wavering on the edge, who've read that post and were wondering if we had anything to say about it.
Also, as much as I'd like to just ignore the post, it got a lot of attention, and you can't just ignore something like that and hope it goes away, because people will point to the lack of rebuttal and say "see! it's all true! truuuueeee!"
CarrotTrees 11y ago
Funny how r/punchingmorpheus is dead and one of the top posts is "ladies what are your tips for approaching guys." You can't take something out of nothing.
Movonnow 11y ago
Yeah, maybe. I won't discuss whether or not it's emotional abuse. But let's assume that it is. Well, women does that to men all the freaking time. So the real question is : is it right to punish someone who harms others on a regular basis? If women does that to other men, then they are 'bad' (sorry I'm not a native speaker, I can't find a more relevant word but I'm sure you get it) and why should we treat well someone who doesn't treat others well?
Well, I'm pretty sure most of us here tend not to break women but to prevent them from breaking us.
I'm tired of all these guys telling me what to think and how to act.
I laughed my ass off on this one. Women? Being alone? Apart from fat and ugly chicks (and even then), all women has orbiters and girlfriiiiiiiiiiends <3 so they are unlikely to be alone.
Fuck that man, that's what she wants. She wants to be in a relationship where she is hurt (I'm not advocating physical hurt or anything serious, just not always making sure the sweetheard never gets hurt about anything). When she finds a blue pill beta boyfriend who respect her and everything, she leaves him and return to the bad boys who will crush her heart. Those are facts. Who the hell is this guy for telling men not to give women what they want?
Yeah, surrender yourself completely and give her your balls. This guy has plenty of Disney in his head. He makes me think of the male equivalent of the fat and unattractive feminist who writes shitty post on the internet.
"Love". lmao
That's unhealthy.
Of course man. What kind of freaky psycho would want to hurt anyone anyway? Women are sweet.
So tell me why even the girlfriends who were very attracted to me did this to me on a daily basis. Fucking tell me.
Yeah. Lala land. You HAVE to play. The game will be played and no one will ever stop playing it for you.
Yep. But as we know, if we show weakness or find a better man she will be the first to stab you in the back.
I agree 100%. I don't want to break my girlfriend, wife or anyone. I just don't let them do this to me and NOT by breaking them (or anyone).
Haha. Who the fuck has already successfully solved a complex issue with a women by talking to her rationally? Raise your hand!
Fucking guy needs to get out of lala land.
Yeah, show her that you are weak and that you are reachable. Does this guy actually tested what he suggests here and got actual results to back up what he is saying?
No. If they do X, which hurts you, you leave. That works, not the "let's work things out, ok honey?".
To elaborate a strategy to get what one's want out of a situation is basic human logic which ensure survival. Someone who wants me happy above all else? yeah, right. I won't even answer to that. This guys must not have been in any LTR before.
You can't change people. That's unhealthy and disrespectful.
Come on, relationships are always a matter of power. One partner has the power. So according to what he says, all relationships are crap and no relationship are worth it.
YES! I agree wholeartidly!
Yeah, the ONE myth. See Rollo's book on that. All this guy is doing is spitting out some cliché without any statistics, proofs or reasoning. I hate that. PC everywhere.
YES! Women are human being, differents than us. They have flaws just like we have. We don't hate women (at least after the anger phase), we hate the fact that we weren't told what women's flaws are and that we grew up being told lies.
That depends on what his definition of alpha is. I will not debate that, it's sunday afternoon, the sun is shining and I've got better things to do.
Movonnow 11y ago
Yeah, men are like that. And a few women. Read all /r/theredpill to understand why I say that.
But...but that's what they want, moron. I don't know for you guys but when I was dominant women loved it whereas when I was not they hated it. They even stated that themselves, telling me dominance was sexy. Did this guy ever interacted with a woman in the first place?
I promess. If I ever find a woman like that, I will do what this guy say.
Again, that's unhealthy and that does not work. THIS IS NOT REALITY
I don't want anyone to change for me. That would not be sexy. If I ever enter a relationship with a girl, it's because I found her attractive and sexy in the first place. I don't want her to change. And if I didn't find her great like she were, I would not enter a relationship with her so I would not want her to change.
Everything is a two-way street? Listen fella. There are two types of people in this world. The first kind of people is people who will suck the blood of the second kind of people, without remorse. Society is jungle. Everyone out there wants you to fail and to die in order to take from you what you have. Only the weak and those who has been brainwashed and breed to be shaved like a goat believes in "I will give him/her freely what I own". No. You don't give anything and you take everything. Because that's why all people will do for you (except for the fucked-up blue pill beta who will believe "it's gooooooooood and it's the right thiiiing to give away my money/time". That's quite an extreme opinion and it only engage myself, not the whole /r/theredpill sub.
This guy is not hopeless. That's ironic because I'm pretty sure he got this idea from TRP.
YES!
Dude, come on. That's not reality. Everyone is using sexual strategy and finding a woman who will refuse to play is very, very unlikely.
I don't know if it's just me, but I find this red pill as fuck. I litterally love it.
Yeah. I would love that. Really. But, sigh, that's not reality man.
ITHOUGHTYOUMENTWEAST 11y ago
How can you deconstruct something that has no substance? Nowhere in TalShar's post does he ever, at all, provide any evidence of why his ideology is right and where we treat women like "animals to be broken" or whatever.
Such a lacking post on his part, the entire thing just appeals to emotion with lines that sound pretty good and at times, barf inducing beta garbage.
In the comments a guy responds that emotional men are seen as weak, TalShar responds with "find a woman that doesn't conform, find a moderate feminist."
A moderate feminist. Where has this man's balls gone. Actually, he isn't even a man. Dropping to that level of bullshit just so a woman will lie to me and tell me she loves the way I cry like a bitch at night is a worse sentence than death. Fuck TalShar and any of those "men" that were stupid enough to fall for his senseless reasoning.
adrixshadow 11y ago
Most people aren't that rational.
Nerf_Circus 11y ago
A big shout out to /u/TalShar for the publicity.
I'm sure without looking he got gilded for his post. The reddit gold obtained as he sends new people straight to our sub.
IVIaskerade 11y ago
Only 65 times (equivalent monetary value $265.35). Most-gilded post on reddit when it was made.
I'm fairly certain that at least 90% of those people were gilding because they agreed.
Nerf_Circus 11y ago
Wow, 5+ years of reddit gold.
Number of people on the red pill swayed by him; maybe ~10
Number of people who checked out the sub because of it ~1000. (numbers out of my ass)
TheMr2fast 11y ago
Such a great post, such insightful analysis. This could easily be sidebar material. My congratulations.
IVIaskerade 11y ago
I don't think it's quite sidebar material - it analyses a criticism of TRP, but it won't drastically improve you as a person in any meaningful way, which is what sidebar material should do.
Thanks for the recommendation though!
Robdogx9001 11y ago
What destroys men is rejection.
Average_Black_Man 11y ago
Only when you don't know how to deal with it.
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trptw 11y ago
I really like this. Even though the post was quite some time ago, that thing got so big nearly every redditor gets a bad taste in their mouth when they hear "the red pill" (not that they would take the time to understand what it is besides reading one post from a guy who claims it will "kill you inside")
I think the most important part of this post is refuting the claim that we complain about sexual strategy. I had talked to some of my friends about TRP and every time I brought it up they would tell me "That's just a bunch of losers who can't get laid so they come up with some big excuse". It wasn't any use arguing them, so I told them "just read the sidebar, and think about any time you've been successful with girls. I guarantee you implemented at least some of the tactics that TRP teaches."
Sure enough, one of my buddies took the bait, and once he started reading he can't stop. He's more concerned with TRP strategies when it comes to game, and he's eating it up.
Men are rational. When posts like these are written, naysayers who come here to try and understand what it is they hate can see a calmly, rationally-presented argument like this and begin to understand what exactly it is and why it's the best way for a man to live his life.
Nice job.
Gimprome 11y ago
Before the red pill, i've had one relationship. It wasn't that I was not successful with women, it was just in high school i didn't bother because I didn't care enough to try. Looking back at specific events, i did things what TRP preaches naturally and it worked like a charm. Most notably, i never asked her out. I told her I was going somewhere and that she should come along (movies. Whatever, it was high school). We go in, immediate kino and escalated. Just kept escalating. Next time we hung out we fucked like rabbits. It sucked, but we tried. I took the lead the whole way and never looked back.
Reading TRP now is great because everything makes sense, and my eyes are open.
[deleted] 11y ago
Good shit.
You can't have it both ways. There can't at the same time be "someone out there for everyone" and a spectrum of SMV. That's a straight up contradiction. In reality the higher you are on the SMV spectrum, the more people consider you to be "the one". You can't recognize that and at the same time completely disregard it and say everyone has a match no matter where they are on the SMV spectrum. It's amazing that all the mindless sheep who upvote this junk fail to see how inconsistent it is.
Also one notion I disagree with. I do think there is a "fight" that you need to win with sexual strategy. Her shit testing you, testing your boundaries and trying to manipulate/play you is the fight that you need to win by passing her shit tests and holding frame. And that's the only optimal scenario, where the man wins that fight, because only then can they both be happy. Women need their rock in the storm and men want a loyal woman.
ForcesMTAria 11y ago
Great post! After seeing that post on EMSK I felt a little shaky on my belief on TRP, but after reading a previous deconstruction and now this one I'm back to being rooted again. Guess I gotta hit the books more.
Thizzlebot 11y ago
I remember reading that post and rolling my eyes so hard they almost popped out of my head. The whole false argument is that "someone is suffering" in relationships. That's a false premise because once you fully understand RP your relationships with everyone become better and everyone is happier. They can shine their white armor as much as they want though because ultimately at the end of the day we win. I also felt that it was ironic that a lot of people were claiming they would "never use RP" but the reality is if they had a good relationship with anyone they were doing it naturally.
BluepillProfessor 11y ago
The author keeps saying TRP is about 'hurting' your SO. Does anybody have any idea what she is talking about?
The man taking charge and making decisions is "abuse?" The man controlling his emotions and responding to provocations (aka shit tests) with humor is "abuse?"
Is she talking about 'negs' or does she just really have no idea?
TLDR of Quoted Post: Men and women are not competitive with one another, our sexual strategy is the same, and we are all equal, so be good to everybody all the time. TRP teaches you to "hurt" your wife/gf.
Also, anything that improves the male strategy over the female strategy is evil especially if it works, even though our sexual strategies are the same, and even worse TRP teaches men to be good only when their wife/gf is behaving herself and not to worship her. This is bad because hamster.
adrixshadow 11y ago
In our current horrible society it is paradise for women.
Then after hitting the wall they fall in hell and burn in despair.
If you want to mess with this equation this means "hurting" women.
Basically women want to commit social suicide and we are not letting them.
clear_lights 11y ago
Relevant discussion: http://www.redditlog.com/snapshots/1124473
redbluepilling 11y ago
Ah yes, I remember this bestof'd turd. I feel like the top comment on redditlog is interesting:
So, they succinctly provide examples of all the good, yet fail to provide examples of the alleged "bad". Just like the original post, everything that's accurate about TRP is explained and shown easily, but then suddenly it devolves into woman hating, break her down, prisoner rhetoric. No evidence, no nuanced thinking. It was a post entrenched with bias.
We_Are_Legion 11y ago
Of course it was. The entire post was an exercise in dealing with cognitive dissonance.
I've always found it interesting that Red Pill is such a boogeyman. I mean, we have our own cheerleaders in TBP and all, but they're girls, and I can understand why they'd hate us and gossip obsessively about us(objectively dictionary gossiping btw). They're not what I mean. Whats strange to me is that there's always been an undertone of TRP discussion permeating reddit. Its a charged topic. In the askreddit poll threads, we outrank spacedicks, greatapes and whatever have you in infamy every time. Every instance of a random jackass "discovering" abuse is blamed on the corruptive and far-reaching influences of the redpill. In reddit forums all over, we spontaneously spout fountains of hate on the slightest mention, hundreds of comments long, circlejerking to the last, striking dissent in angry spasms of self-righteousness. If I wanted right now, I could sneak into just about any thread and whisper "^Redpill. You're welcome" and ruin 100 people's day. Everyone jumps on each other to grind their teeth at redpill while masturbating furiously. In fact, trashing us was a sure-fire way to end up on /r/bestof and alike.
Or at least, that was the atmosphere at the time. But one thing they could never do, was explain why they couldn't stop thinking and talking about us. Saying the same things over and over... but nobody addressing the one answer that mattered.
Into this atmosphere comes... /u/TalShar. What he did different to every other circlejerk was... he addressed that burning itch.
In a momentous "Every Man Should Know" post... The no.2 all-time post on that subreddit... The post linked into by almost every subreddit with a glancing subject matter relation... The all-time record holder for most golds for a single post... Talshar addressed the last gnawing concern. He admitted redpill worked. and explained why you could still hate it... ending the internal torment of many a redditor.
Moreover, he fulfilled the prophecy of redpill, and took its challenge to BPers; That the pill is difficult to swallow. And many of us, even long-time vets hate what we've internalized sometimes. Giving us an alternative that worked, might convince many of us to switch. TalShar attempted this, and in a single last-minute edit won 2000 people over to subscribe to his punching morpheus sub. He was their messiah from the neccessity of the red pill. He didn't make much of a dent to RP itself though because a lot of what he was saying was inaccurate to anyone who'd actually had a cursory understanding of red pill and detracted from his credibility.
The end.
IVIaskerade 11y ago
I think that most of the anti-TRP stuff was explained by RickRollsOn's comment in the post "Men are not happy":
These are what people tend to object to (and I am inclined to agree). They tend to be highly machiavellian, being exactly the kind of highly calculated emotional manipulation that TalShar rails agains.
However, I'd say that at present, it's less than 5% of the sub.
Dream4eva 11y ago
Men are not happy is one of the top 5 posts ever here IMO
busior 11y ago
hey how often do you see people bashing women for their use of Machiavellian techniques ? You know even some basic stuff like don't respond to texts right away, show emotional distance, don't have sex on the first date etc. ? Even if you only use techniques that your average teenage girl is familiar with and uses on a regular basis you're seen as an amazing controlling and Machiavellian dickhead
oceanlifetime 11y ago
I enjoyed your post.
In my field I see so many blue pill men who are destroyed by divorce and giving up their home. Generally both the husband and the wife would be better off if the man took TRP and avoided letting the wife run up expenses and treating him like dirt. Women in relationships remind me of children who don't clean their room. Every fitness test is like a piece of clothes thrown on the ground, if you let the kid continually get his way to avoid a fight you'll end up with a filthy room. If you let a woman get away with fitness tests because you are a nice guy you end up with a divorce.
redbluepilling 11y ago
They're only seen as "manipulative" "tactics" because they're being attempted by inexperienced guys and it comes across as unnatural. Outer game is just specific examples of alpha behaviour.
IVIaskerade 11y ago
Yes and no. Some of that stuff is genuinely twisting the knife to get a girl to sleep with you. Most isn't, and you can get away with a lot more if you're hot, but some of it is just plain mean.
For example, breaking a girl down piece by piece, relentless, never giving her time to recover, piling flaw on flaw until she's a quivering wreck - whereupon you extend the hand of "friendship" and offer to help her out of the hole "she's gotten herself into". If you've seen Nip/Tuck it's the infamous "we can fix you" scene. (If you haven't here you go)
abcd_z 11y ago
PUA here, we don't even advocate that.
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Dev_on 11y ago
since when? I've been out of the game for a while, but it's literally fake it till you make it. outer game has it's cube, and other little parlor tricks, and helps you understand the process that seduction goes through, inner game, which is the important part, is no different than here.
the closest you can find to a trick is LMR tactics, but at that point, the girl wants to sleep with you, and just wants reassurance that she's not a slut. giving people what they want is not a trick
vengefully_yours 11y ago
Apparently giving them what they want is "rape" when they want reassurance they aren't sluts. That's what they try to claim, but to them anything is rape, even if they want it.
confuseacatlmtd 11y ago
Wholly fuck...my family did this to me over years. Like, almost this exact scene but over years.
Mother mentioned that my left eye is slightly smaller than my right. When I was 18 asked my sister if I was balding in front of me (27 still haven't). Said my nose was slightly crooked.
Sister told me that I look very masculine for having a small chin. Always on me about acne that wasn't that bad.
Mentioned that I furrow on eyebrow too much and it looks weird.
Grandma always mentioned how short I was. They said all these things for years.
Almost this exact scene. For years. Creepy as fuck. Mind blown.
Last month I turned down fucking a working model because she admitted she had a fiance. The girl I'm fucking now gave me her number without my even flirting with her.
For year people told me I should model or act, because I was so good looking. I could never believe them...
Sorry, I know this isn't redpill (except the fixing my insecurity part over the last few months) but this really puts into perspective how insane my family is.
larrythetomato 11y ago
I am really late (3 months), but this wasn't addressed properly.
Most women are not sadistic. It was never their intention to break you down. I know that because that is exactly what my elder sister had been doing to me me entire life. What they see is your insecurities: you on your 'balding', on your 'crooked nose', on the fact that you react to these things, and they think it's funny. They think you shouldn't have these insecurities, but they don't know how to tell you. So what they do is they poke at your insecurities, constantly making fun of it until they numb your response to them. Then they find something else to make fun of (heh).
Ironically for males with low self esteem like yours truly (for 20 years), it wrecked me and made me an angry, bitter, anti-social child. But you can't change the past you can only grow. You should relish when you are teased relentlessly by close girls (friends, family, girlfriends), they are telling you exactly how you need to change for the better. They just suck at the communicating part.
confuseacatlmtd 11y ago
I understand how someone with a normal family may think that that is what I am talking about. I am sorry that you are insecure, and it seems like at least you had a normal environment to grow up in with normal woman who cared about you. Best of luck.
[deleted] 11y ago
Remember Beauty and the Beast? A nice bit of the beginning showcases Belle--being clearly upstanding, kind and also physically appealing--getting harassed by the townsfolk, who mock her for being rotten and all these things that she clearly isnt. The reason I bring that up is that when you're a good looking person, society places a lot of pressure on you and a lot of expectations. Ugly people will endlessly try to find your flaws so they can justify an excuse as to why they aren't living how they want to live. You're a scapegoat for others shortcomings
Dev_on 11y ago
theres also gaslighting, could be that
IVIaskerade 11y ago
Have you checked out RaisedByNarcissists? It sounds like you might've had a similar experience.
confuseacatlmtd 11y ago
No I'm a member already. I just didn't realize that the appearance aspect had been one of the issues to such a huge degree! I am over the stuff they did to me but I had not realized how much they had impacted my view of my looks.
Come to think of it, no one has ever said ANYTHING negative about my looks except for them.
Thanks for they link though, I let as many people know about it as possible!
seeing-red- 11y ago
This is a top-notch post.
The main issue I saw with the EMSK post was that the author assumes that women can be rational about their sexuality, when they have strong biological incentives not to be. Also lots of failure to recognize differences between genders.
Thank you for writing out your rebuttal and taking it much farther than those two problems I noticed right away.
Nach_Rap 11y ago
I think the "Yes Means Yes" law proves your point. They can't be rational about their own sexuality.
IVIaskerade 11y ago
It was an EMSK post, it ain't exactly aimed at women. That said, I thank you for your criticism. I'm still a little unsure of which bit you're talking about though. I don't think I expect women to be rational about sexuality, but if I came across that way, I'd appreciate an example so I can either ammend it or annotate it.
seeing-red- 11y ago
Oops, I meant "issue with the EMSK post", not "issue with the deconstruction". Edited to reflect that.
The EMSK post was very heavy on the "just talk to her" angle, and I think the reason that doesn't work is because hamsters. I prefer Vladimir Putin's approach: "It's better not to argue with women."
mercuryg 11y ago
This is a top quality post, about time someone exposed this emsk article for what it is, plain feel good bs.
If i were to throw him a bone and agree that TRP will indeed "kill you inside", then TBP will in comparison be something like this. TBP will not only kill you inside, it will bring you back to life, just to kill you inside many times over again, until you're a shell of a man, so confused and frustrated you have stopped trying to figure wome out, until you've just accepted that you have no control and that women are playing you like puppeteers. You will go through your life with constant cognitive dissonance, the worst part is that you will become accustomed to it too.
That is the blue pill reality, that is the alternative, i've been through it, and quite frankly, i don't understand how one can go on living like that. So yeah, i will choose the red pill alternative every time, i'll just let trp kill me inside once and get it over with, so i can start over and rebuild myself, and maybe have a brighter future.
RedPill115 11y ago
Lol, that is absurdly true. There are some ways that TRP will kill you a little inside, absolutely. But TPB process is just longer, and kills you over and over and over again.
In my opinion, there's nothing to listening to feminism, but if you take societies blue pill and the red pill, and average them out, that's about the best you're going to get. Some hope, with actual success.
Synthtwo 11y ago
I always find it completely fascinating exactly how much energy TRPs detractors put in to attempting to thwart our message. Like, in order for this guy to drum up sufficient motivation to make an essay of this magnitude he clearly believes that not only is TRP flawed but it is threatening his core life philosophy. He just dedicated a few hours of his life to thwarting an opponent.
If your opposition dictates your life that powerfully, it's time to rethink your position. He could have been enjoying life, but he feels the threat is SO DIRE he HAS to make a massive post to make himself feel better.
It's allegorical to good vs evil in the way evil is proactive (TBP perpetually goes out of their way to attack us) whereas good is reactionary (see the above post).
I'm not attempting to dichotomize our positions, I just saw a similarity. The reactionary vs proactive dichotomy has many incarnations.
svogliate 11y ago
Shit's long. I propose to refute EMSK/TalShar in 3 quotes.
Remember. All I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more. – Morpheus
Ninety percent of everything is crap. – Ted Sturgeon
I refute it thus. – Boswell, Life of Johnson
Talshar's main point is correct, of course - relationships are to be for the benefit of both participants. That's not an area of major debate around here. That's why most of his post consists in knocking down straw men. He gets it; and that means he's as RP as anyone on this board, even if he doesn't like it.
Ill_mumble_that 11y ago
I think we all know the real truth about relationships and who typically benefits: only the woman. Try to change that so it's more equal and suddenly you're a misogynist.
IVIaskerade 11y ago
I take issue with this - I think you're only what you identify as, because otherwise, we get into all that stupid "you're just a feminist/liberal/pastafarian who doesn't know it" malarkey. Sure, you can point out that someone is aligning with the views of a certain ideology, but they don't necessarily agree with all of it.
Also,
Well, I did warn you at the start.
gekkozorz 11y ago
I would refute the last one as being a prisoner's dilemma.
Let's be overly analytical here and assign some fake numbers. Let's say that if you and your partner both refuse to use sexual strategy, you will each gain 5 utility, for a net gain of 10 between the two of you. This would be that happy Nicholas Sparks relationship everyone dreams of where the woman's a unicorn and the man's a Prince Charming. No games, no manipulation, nothing. Just a pure, happy, equal relationship.
Now let's say that one partner swears off sexual strategy, but the other doesn't. The player gets 8 utility in this case, and the non-player gets 2. This is what happens when you have a dead bedroom relationship where the woman kills the sex life once she gets the ring, then gets her thrills from side strange while the husband updates his spreadsheet and masturbates into his tears. Or when Don Draper bangs his secretary, and Betty knows he's doing it, but she has to stay with him anyway because he's such a badass. The player wins, the non-player loses.
TalShar argues, "See, the BEST solution is for both players to not play! Because they both get 5 utility and there's equality for all!"
And a man might see that logic and accept it - with honor being a male abstract and all. We all had that phase where we believed the Disney movies and believed women would be Unicorns if you treated them right.
But the thing is, we know how women are. Hypergamy's going to call. She's can do math, she knows that 8 > 5, and she's going to want those juicy extra 3 points. In fact, thanks to feminism 3.0, she'll feel entitled to it. And she's not going to care if the man's utility gets shit on in the process. So she's going to go for it. The romantic beta sap doesn't play and gets 2, the hypergamous woman plays and gets 8.
And that's why we preach that you look out for yourself.
twinyix 11y ago
This is a great! You should write a post about this.
There's an underlying truth to the way a prisoner's dilemma works. You have human nature, or better yet our hindbrain that controls our emotion and instinct, versus our cerebral cortex that makes the complex judgements we define as sapient.
We have grown as a society because we took were able to nullify our emotions and think objectively about situations. We were able to reach the conclusion of the prisoner's dilemma where we all "win". However, we have to take into account that men and women are not equal in the way they make decisions.
It's easier for a man to make decisions not based off of his emotions than a women. That's where the second choice comes into play. Of course 8 > 5. If we only think about ourselves and feed our emotions we will always play this way.
It's the exact reason why we cannot have perfect communism. It's impossible to expect everyone to stop playing the game. It sounds beautiful in theory but in practice it's impossible.
The only thing you can do is realize that we are in fact playing a game and make a decision from that. The RedPill show's you the truth. It is up to you to decide what you want to do with it.
guy2435 11y ago
Thank you very much. I enjoyed your post, I can't say it enough. I've read u/TalShar's post first and felt that he really has good points in there, but there was something that makes me "Wait something here bothers me but I can't put it into words." Your post has eloquently made those thoughts readable for me. And have also helped me understand more truly, what some of the TRP teachings and ideas that I'm finding difficult or conflicting for me to really understand. Still beta and glad that I'm still here in TRP. Thank you.
FishFoxFerret 11y ago
I think TRP as a whole is this: we are animals. People forget this, and some don't accept this.
Modern times have forgotten that we are animals and have cast aside real world actions/results in favor of a ideal world where we aren't animals and males and females have the same needs.
Males and females do have different desires and needs. TRP accepts this and says that a good relationship (of any kind really) will work well with an Alpha. Which just means he won't buckle at her every whim and need. He is strong, confident, decisive, and in control. NOT an overly sensitive, non-risk taking, unconfident, worried-they-might-hurt-her-feelings because they touched her arm guy.
^^^^^^^Also, ^^^^^^^it ^^^^^^^isn't ^^^^^^^only ^^^^^^^about ^^^^^^^girls/relationships.
IVIaskerade 11y ago
Well I'll be damned. There was a TL;DR.
leftajar 11y ago
EMSK guy actually believes that if a couple is smart, Liberal, and has good conflict resolution skills, they can just rationally discuss everything.
What he doesn't understand, probably because the truth is bitter, is that power dynamics are as much a part of life as doing laundry. It's impossible to have a relationship without power dynamics unless both parties are highly autistic.
Ironically, in calling out a post for trying to sugar-coat reality, your response needs to go a step further: women, like children, need to be lead in order to be happy. Women are happier, more relaxed, and more effective within the context of a relationship with a dominant man. That's what they're designed to seek out and enjoy. It's the fucking species.
My response to that thread was this: "Have you asked those women if they were suffering?" Downvotes, because they couldn't handle the possibility that women liked it.
IVIaskerade 11y ago
But, but, but, they've internalised the repression so that they don't recognise that they're not happy! They just think they're fine with the situation! Anyone can see that nobody could possibly be happy with a strong, supportive partner!
batfish55 11y ago
Awesome point-by-point rebuttal.
But he never really addressed "why TRP will kill you inside," just kind of bitched, "this isn't for me, for the following reasons."
If anything, the only troubles I have with TRP is with my own cognitive dissonance: the logic the TRP presents is pretty damn well thought out, all encompassing, and unassailable, and that's in direct opposition to the disney-fied feelz I was raised with.
graymark3 11y ago
Get off your white horse sir white knight. This sub isn't just about objectifying women. They do that themselves. This subreddit is about becoming a man.
RedPillSafe 11y ago
Red Pill is simply our modern equivalent of bible truths.
The medium is different (the internet) and the stories are different (derived from a movie) but the core theme that men and women have unique natures is the same.
Feminists are expected to hate the Red Pill because they hate truth generally.
yummyluckycharms 11y ago
Op: completely missed what TRP is about.
Simply put....its about continual self improvement that leads to one becoming a better man and to gain greater understanding of the true nature of women. Upon doing so, achieve greater success in the sexual marketplace.
Thats it, and yet such a simple concept was missed and never even tangentially alluded to by OP.
IVIaskerade 11y ago
The Red Pill: Discussion of sexual strategy.
I don't follow. The main advice given to newcomers is not "lift for yourself" it's "lift because more women will want you". The "hey, this feels pretty good, I'm going to do it even if I'm not looking for girls" bit comes later.
yummyluckycharms 11y ago
I must respectfully disagree. When I see people talking about lifting, its meant to re-energize yourself, self improvement, and to gain focus. Picking up women is a side effect of that - it comes after you get your shit together - not before.
Remember: if you do something because you think others are expecting it of you, then you will never be able to be truly happy. In fact, red pill is all about putting yourself first, learning a hobby, learning how to let plates come and go, etc.
Long_dan 11y ago
There is a grown up on here. First time I've seen it. Bravo. A little much for the bitterboys to handle. Rather mature for reddit. I commend you.