i love the "extremist feminists aren't real feminists" argument. indeed, sweetie, they just run the political organizations, head the gender studies departments, write the majority of literature on the subject, and comprise the bulk of the activists. so who defines feminism?
A survey done in the 1990s in the US found that more people believed that aliens had visited the country, than believed being called a feminist was a positive description.
Part of this whole "red pill" endeavor I've been on means actually enjoying myself on dates instead of being stressed out. I recently talked to a woman for at least half an hour about aliens just to see what she'd say or do.
The next day she told me she thought it was the craziest thing anyone had ever said on a date ... but that she loved the confidence and passion.
I've explained to a girl my zombie plan in a dead serious tone, as if I were actually planning for a zombie apocalypse..... Which I am of course. Who doesn't have a zombie plan?
I honestly feel that our eccentricities, passion and confidence let us stand out from the crowd. The fact that we won't bow down to societal pressure to act or think a certain way is what attracts others (especially women) to us.
Also, fuck yes you need a zombie plan. You should also have a bug out bag, know your exits and be able to quickly asses threats.
can travel short distance through the air in large droplets effectively making it an airborne virus
male survivors may be able to transmit the disease via their semen
current cases growth rate is 20% per week
there is no cure!
That is as close to zombie apocalypse as we will get.
I would say the "zombiness factor" is not the bloodthirsty mindless packs looking to attack the healthy (movie stuff). It's zombiness just when carriers stupidly behave in ways that actively spread the disease, which you see in Africa right now, but can happen everywhere.
That's hilarious. In a way it's almost a shame to see how much more widely accepted feminism has become now in 2014 compared to back then. Although we're seeing the backlash against it it's still quite a considerable movement with its fair share of advocates
What could you possibly mean by feminism "keeps men down in their place"?
If you spent half as much time working to understand the complexities of feminism as you clearly have spent building women up as a collection of controlling, manipulative, oppressors, you would understand the silliness of your claim.
Historically, feminism has been fragmented. Sure, there have been (and likely still are) radical sections of feminism that are "anti-men". But these groups DO NOT represent the majority of feminists or the only line of feminist thinking. In fact, much of modern feminism is focused on helping men. Modern feminism recognizes that women aren't the only ones who suffer when there are rigid gender roles. Men suffer from the social standard of masculinity. Boys suffer when they are told to "man up" rather than express their emotions. Men suffer when they are ridiculed for aspirations that fall outside of the social order that has been set.
Look up some of Michael Kimmel's work on the development and repercussions of masculinity (he wrote an amazing book called "Guyland", if you're interested). Look up a documentary called "Tough Guise". Look up Jackson Katz. I think that these are the kinds of feminist pursuits that get ignored by people who argue that "all feminists just want to keep men down" and I think these are some feminist pursuits that are really important in the western world today.
Men suffer from the social standard of masculinity. Boys suffer when they are told to "man up" rather than express their emotions. Men suffer when they are ridiculed for aspirations that fall outside of the social order that has been set.
This isn't a bad thing, men should try to be masculine. This further proves the point that the goal of feminism is to emasculate men and give women all the power. Feminism tells men they should feel okay with not being masculine, and that they shouldn't follow "social standards" that encourage masculinity, all the while telling women that they should be strong and independent because that makes them empowered from men.
Men shouldn't let their emotions get the best of them, they shouldn't be afraid of feeling them, but if your emotions dictate your life then you need someone to act as a sort of "manager" for you because you can not control your emotions. If you act like this, you need a partner who is able to control their emotions. In a traditional society with gender roles, women where expected to let their emotions dictate their lives, whereas men where expected to take care of these women. If both men and women let their emotions run rampant then the result will not be good.
Women are natural manipulators. As they are physically weaker than men, and they are more protected, more provided for; playing social games of power and manipulation is second nature to them. Women who can't do this aren't successful. Manipulating men is an especially important instinct. I don't attach any moral judgement to this.
Historically, feminism has been a political movement to gain more power for women. I don't see how this has changed. Different women may have different ideas how to go about it. Feminism is one part lust for power, one part octopus ink.
Men being told functional truths instead of manipulative lies and distortions means women losing power over men.
I am also not interested in what other men say about how I should live. I have things I want out of life and I go after them. I do not care if other people consider that as masculine or not.
It seems to me men being out of control, out of reach of the claws of female manipulation is terrifying to them.
That's the thing: you CHOOSE to go for the things you want, regardless of the social standards for your gender. That is awesome, and that is one thing modern feminism is all about. However, you shouldn't blow off my suggestion for future research. If you're going to spout nonsense like "women are inherently manipulative" and "feminists just want to keep men down", don't you think you ought to have all the information you can?
Most feminists don't want power over men. In fact, many feminists are men, are in relationships with men, and/or care about men a lot. I've said it before, the negative stigma built up around the word "feminist", and the ridiculous stereotypes the come with it, are founded on a very small group of radical people. Using this image to define all feminists is a lot like looking at the Westboro Baptist Church and then deciding that all Christians are insensitive, vulgar, lunatics - which is absolutely ridiculous.
It's more like looking at the Westboro Baptist Church and deciding that all the members are equally insane and toxic. Of course they are not, but they are still members.
It's not though. There are so so so many different segments of feminist thought and practice. Each group has different goals and ideas about what feminism means. Lumping everyone together under the radical umbrella ignores the diversity that exists.
Western feminism is very homogeneous. Whine, bully and intimidate to get more power. Use excuses like equality, social justice and blaming men for everything as leverage. Minimize personal responsibility and accountability.
The feminine imperative has many goals and women are very smart in how they go about achieving them.
Everything is cyclical until an equilibrium can be found.
For, most of human history, men have dominated every aspect of civilization. Its only been a couple generations since women in the United States, and most of the free world, have had the same rights as men. What we are seeing now is the pendulum swinging in the other direction to help advance women. Once people feel things have gone too far it will swing back.
Any advantage men had throughout history was generally paid for by obligation to serve the state through military action. Of course, "war hurts women the most", but since women are still exempt from selective service registration when they turn 18, they are enjoying the benefits without the responsibility. Such is feminism.
Its just a bunch of unattractive women who don't get any from men or the men they want attention from, so they push this new age feminism bullshit. A lot of good guys are so afraid of acting naturally around attractive women that they try ignore them which leads to sluttier and more revealing clothing in an attempt to do what they want to do naturally which is get mans attention. Feminism is about dragging the more successful women down to equal standing in attractiveness to the opposite sex by their equivalent of beta females.
Other peoples' opinions are not our concern. Outsiders commonly mistake us for male rights activists. Their misunderstandings and ignorance of our beliefs are not our responsibility.
RedPill is a philosophy, not a movement. Advocacy and recruiting are discouraged. There is no organized effort or goal to change the outside public. Our focus is changing and educating ourselves.
The concept of feminism is, in itself, contradictory.
If women were truly as strong and independent as feminists say they are, why do they need a social movement to solve all their problems? Why can't they just get shit done on their own?
Isn't the fact that they need a social movement to save them indicative of dependency, AKA, the opposite of independence?
It's even easier to argue against "pro-equality feminism", which is conveniently nearly all feminists nowadays. I've posted this before, but just point out that "feminism" and "patriarchy" are gendered terms, and thus gender roles, even though feminists justify themselves by claiming to be egalitarian/against all forms of gender roles. Therefore It is hypocritical to claim to be both feminist and pro-equality. I've never seen hamster wheels take off nearly as fast as when you bring that up.
Well, in this case that's not a fair point. Black people needed a movement. When men are in a bigger shithole than we currently are, we'll need a movement too. Whenever something is engrained in law or culture you need a pretty big push to get it out.
But this is strategy and politics. Has nothing to do with the group. The issue with feminism is that , as a group, those hamsters didn't spin very fast. The result is worse off for women. They traded protection and stability for what? Being Able to sleep with alphas? Beta orbiters? That entire movement destroyed the protection and stability most women need so that the 1% of women can live more prosperous. That 1% that already had all the freedoms that money brings.
Last time I checked, black people never claimed to be strong and independent. The reason feminism falls apart under logical scrutiny is because it has two claims which contradict each other.
Women are strong and independent and can do anything a man can do just as well or better
Women need special help from society
You can have one premise, but you can't have both. You're either strong and therefore you don't need society's help, or you're weak and you do need society's help. Pick one.
Let me guess. You're the type of person who wants to believe that both premises can exist concurrently. That a woman can be super duper strong and independent; just as strong as any man... but also that women are victims and they need society to come in and rescue them from the patriarchy's evil ways.
And you started to type up a retort to my comment, but then you realized, holy shit, I'm right.
So instead of a logical response, you just gave me this extreme reaction.
Ok. Well, that's a kind of roundabout way of telling me that I'm right, but I'll take it, thanks.
No, I believe that African Americans do call themselves strong and independent, yet call for extra assistance like affirmative action. So many points like this in TRP are logically flawed and all over the place.
I don't believe black people go one way or the other on the strong/independence front. Maybe some do, maybe some don't.
But the whole "being strong/independent" thing is a major part of being a feminist. It's basically the whole point of the movement - that women are empowered and can do anything a man can do.
That's the main difference here - feminists say "I'm super strong and independent, but I want you to give me free shit as if I were weak and dependent," whereas black people who believe in affirmative action are simply saying, "I want you to give me free shit."
I don't agree. The civil rights movement and subsequent black power movements all refer to black people as being a strong, willful, powerful, and independent race. Yet they call for affirmative action and other "equalizing" legislation. The dichotomy isn't limited to the feminist movement.
The "black power" segment of the AA community certainly exists, yes. But that's a subset of AA culture, not an underlying aspect of the entire culture.
Makes no difference either way. Whether women are assumed to be strong or independent already or whether strength and independence are the objective, the fact remains that strong/independent people shouldn't need entitlements.
If women are going to get special bonuses from society, that must mean that women are weak and dependent. You cannot say that "women are independent" out of one side of your mouth, and "women need society's help" out of the other, as the latter implies dependency.
This reminds of a post I saw from 2X on the front page today. About a woman in a female dominated office who was afraid to speak up against the 'hazing' of a newly hired male employee. Reading the post, it struck me how, due to their 'feminist conditioning', most of the women (and the few Beta men) were perfectly alright with it. Luckily the OP and one other colleague were sensible enough to realize that, had they been in that position as women, they would have kicked up an HR shit storm. OP might not have acted but at least she had the sense to use a bit of empathy which is what feminists completely ignore. I think more and more women sooner or later are going to realize that 'ideal feminism' is just a dream and will never exist because it directly contradicts the feminine imperative. Women don't want to be equal to everyone else. They want to get their way regardless of how it affects everyone else.
This is not an accepted term, explain what you mean. To me it either means nothing or whatever the reader/writer want it to mean which is even more useless.
Then what would you propose is a better term? Whichever way you wish to describe it the feminine imperative boils down to one thing: survival (not to be confused with simply staying alive as long as possible). The feminine imperative is the reason for the hypergamic behavior of women as they seek to maximize their chances of survival by attracting the most valuable mate to provide the most comfortable lifestyle to ensure the greatest chance of survival of their offspring. It's basically an extension of their solipsistic nature.
Is "redpill" an accepted term? Dude, Feminine Imperative gets thrown around here pretty often. How about you lurk for a few weeks instead of asking questions that a simple google search could answer. Not trying to be a dick btw.
Prof Bulbeck said in the late 60s and 70s, when it was illegal to work if you were married and women had to be paid less than men, gender oppression was much more visual.
Nowadays it is more hidden and Prof Bulbeck said many people did not understand the structural disadvantage.
This is awfully close to the "my dog ate my homework" excuse.
So guyz, women are still oppressed, but it's super secret underground oppression and you just can't see it.
But remember, people who criticize them are silly and think there's a conspiracy theory to take away their video games and make them apologize for being men.
But there's a secret, endemic, societal trend intending to oppress women.
Well, I understand that some women don't want to be cat-called while walking down the street and that some men really do just want relations with women if sex is involved (e.g... "the friend zone") but this is just the reality of being a living human being. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH OR WANT TO BE AROUND.
Solution: Just say "fuck 'em".
I also deal with people who I can't stand on a daily basis. But what the feminist movement doesn't understand is that THAT'S LIFE. Equivalent to cat-calling.. Some idiot driving by and yelling some stupid shit at you in traffic, a drunk moron at the pub picking a fight. I don't need to start a movement to let these people know that I refuse to stoop to that level. This world is not paradise, plain and simple. DEAL WITH IT.
Yeah, like how a single childless woman makes more than a single childless man, assuming they have the same education level. I forget the exact stat, does anyone have it? That stat alone nullifies the whole income inequality bullshit.
Remember that this is an Australian source, not an American one. Considering that Commonwealth countries tried dumb shit like effectively criminalize women playing soccer, I wouldn't be surprised.
Mate, no offence to anyone, but people doing PhDs and postgrad studies in social sciences can get away with a lot of shit.
I personally don't have much intellectual respect for them. It's more about how much work you can read and how much you can write in a way that makes it harder to understand and make you sound intelligent.
Social sciences are not maths. You can have two people argue about something for ages, it's not "1+1=2 PERIOD".
Feminists always talk about equal pay. They very rarely mention that maybe on average a female accountant makes less than a male one. Its usually in the guise that a call centre operator deserves to be paid as much as an electrical engineer. And they're never willing to see that maybe male accountants work harder.
But it's too late. Feminism has done so much damage that if it were to end today it would take 50 years for society to recover. That won't happen any time soon they have embedded themselves into leftist politics. Its one of the reasons why the right still gets elected even though the right us often very detrimental to the middle class and poor. In Australia we just got rid of a leftist woman PM because we just couldn't stand the PC anymore. So not only are feminists doing a lot of damage to man/woman relationships, they are hurting the finances and well being of the middle and lower classes and preventing progress you usually get from the left like clean energy.
I like how th whole thing is over because w pretty woman who married a very wealthy, unattractive man with a history of beta tendencies posted a picture of herself styled as Rosie the Rivetter. feminism proven.
Women who rely on a social movement in order to justify their feelings and actions is the equivalent of men who rely on PUA tricks and manipulation to sleep with women. If you're a natural (an independent woman or a "natural" man), then you don't need someone else's ethos to dictate your self-worth.
Also, I can't stand people who talk smack on folks who are OKAY with traditional gender roles. It's not affecting you. I don't give women shit for not shaving their armpits and opening independent books stores where 90% of their selection is gender studies. In fact, I'm happy those people are standing up for something they believe in.. However, I'm going to live my life the way that I want, if I'm an "evil privileged straight white male" for doing so in your eyes, then so be it.
The year is 2014. You are a 18 year old man drafted into the army against your will. War has erupted in the west. Where once you stood in the busy streets of NY, you now stand in a blood stained valley of corpses. You are not even sure where you are anymore. You had no choice, because if you did choose otherwise, it'd be a life of imprisonment. You were a businessman, a successful one at that. But none of that matters anymore. As you stand in the field, the long winding sound of sirens fills the air around you, although you hardly notice it. Ahead of you you see the advance of a battalion of troops and tanks, moving down on your position. Friends and comrades alike have all started to take their lives. What else could they do? You're all trapped. Soon the enemy will capture you and you will be tortured for information. You'll beg for death, and want to give them information just so you can die... but it'll never come. Your screams will fill the halls of the dungeon, like so many more around you. Maybe that bullet in your chamber is your salvation...
See.. I can write up stuff too. This is also real stuff that has happened to real men who arn't so much alive today, but fought so these women could live the lives they enjoy. The stories my grandfather would tell me.. wow.
I like to attribute it to the new use circle jerk. Every so often someone will throw down a good piece of humor and I'll chuckle, but will have a mostly negative score. Same kind of thing I imagine.
I really wish that people like you would stick around and defend the things you post. But you're always drive-by posters. You get your little dig in, and then you're gone.
In this case, someone replied to this stupid blog post and all you could come up with is the tired, "you don't understand" response.
I mean, you could defend yourself here, or on neutral ground like /r/purplepilldebate if you like. But you people never do it. One or two posts and you're out. It's quite pathetic.
anything from feeling uncomfortable when a man catcalls you in the street, to feeling scared walking home alone at night in a secluded area – and are treated with love and respect by every man in your life
That right there is the problem with modern Feminism.
Poor girls in the third world, they need equal opportunity. Sure.
If you say you want equal treatment, but then expect special treatment, you are a lying hypocrite. Men don't get any of that shit. So why should you?
Trying to conflate the two situations is disgusting.
The gap between Equal Opportunity and modern Feminism, is where modern Feminism is wrong.
Men are objectified on the basis of their body, AND wallet. (Flagrantly). Most of this subreddit is angled towards leveraging that fact to your advantage.
Only part where the article is right is that women need better access to abortion in some states. But nearly all TRPers would agree on that. Not having to pay 18 years of child support when you don't want to is awesome. TRP is largely pro-choice.
So again what "facts" about the need/virtue of modern feminism are we so oblivious about? I'm not seeing any.
For the first article, your use of the phrase "nearly as likely" is subjective. The figure was 38%.
I'll give you the fact that men are probably equally as likely to be victims of domestic violence.
I'm not sure why you would want to use being objectified to your advantage. No one wants to be objectified. Feminists don't want anybody to be objectified. It does happen more to women though. How often have you gone to a bar and felt like the only reason you were there is to be hit on? How often have you been at work and received blatant unwarranted flirting or inappropriate remarks? Women deal with that constantly. They are made to feel like their only redeeming quality is how attractive they are. It's not hard to get with a woman because they think they are above you, it's because most of us men can't think of anything better to say than "Hey beautiful." I'll stop here to avoid the risk of sounding redundant. That's just the tip of the iceberg.
I'll agree that men are more likely to be harmed in public.
The first article about pay gap admits that the gap is still there. The second article is good news to me if it's true! I haven't done anymore research on the claims that were made, but it's great if women are starting to make more and are becoming more successful. Personally, I think it might be because young males of our generation are kind of lost in some weird stage of pseudo-adolescents and we can't seem to grow up or figure out where to begin our lives. Women have been forced to be steadfast and hardworking. They have to work much harder to get to where they want to be. That's what I think the pay gap more is about. Men don't have to work nearly as hard to be taken seriously. I see it at my job everyday., I dunno, maybe you live in a more progressive area if you don't see it.
I'm glad we can agree on pro-choice, although I don't think I can agree with your attitude about children you don't want. If you want to have sex, you should be prepared to deal with potential consequences maturely.
One of those surveys is the 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, for which the Centers for Disease Control invented a category of sexual violence called “being made to penetrate.” This definition includes victims who were forced to penetrate someone else with their own body parts, either by physical force or coercion, or when the victim was drunk or high or otherwise unable to consent. When those cases were taken into account, the rates of nonconsensual sexual contact basically equalized, with 1.270 million women and 1.267 million men claiming to be victims of sexual violence. “Made to penetrate” is an awkward phrase that hasn’t gotten any traction. It’s also something we instinctively don’t associate with sexual assault.
That said, women are lucky as hell that they don't need to approach men hardly at all to begin relationships. That responsibility almost always falls on the guy. And given our culture, guys have shitty game. But really unless guys are encouraged to be more adept at gaming girls, or girls start actively asking out guys on a regular basis. Guys are going to ask. And how the hell is a guy supposed to know other guys talked to you earlier in the day. He's not psychic. So don't blame a guy for not knowing something he couldn't possibly know.
But besides which though "blatant unwarranted flirting or inappropriate remarks". Essentially this gets into "Creepiness", I.e. undesired sexual advances. Problem with that, is that it's entirely subjective to what a woman is comfortable with, and how sexy the guy is. (I.e. You're expecting guys to be able to read your mind.)
Guys hitting on girls in bars? Well fucking duh! A guy isn't paying a shit ton of money to go to a loud bar, to buy overpriced alcohol and snacks just to hang out and talk. He's going there because the girls are, by definition, older than 18. They have alcohol to make them less inhibited towards sex. And the girls intentionally dress sexier. If you're looking for beer and conversation, go to a dive bar. Otherwise it's like you signed up to OKCupid or SpeedDating just to meet friends, and are trying to shame people who take it as an open invitation to show sexual interest.
As far as sexual attractiveness being a primary aspect of what makes a woman attractive to a man. Consider this.
http://youtu.be/5oyrG3PcgLk
And just for the hell of it I'll toss this in there. (Women are lucky all they gotta do is as simple as gym+diet. Simple. Relatively easy!) http://youtu.be/qbJOLq5wXwk
As for the pay gap thing, I think you're projecting a lot of assumptions beyond the facts. But in nearly every study men work longer hours, more stressful work, more dangerous, worse schedule, and less fulfilling positions. There's 3 women graduating college for every 2 men, but all but a tiny minority graduate in "hardworking" STEM majors. A vast majority go into "pink collar" jobs, which are notably more comfortable, albeit lower paying.
As far as "dealing with the potential consequences maturely", I'm totally okay using condoms, and if an unplanned pregnancy happens anyways, I'm cool paying the $2000 or so for the abortion.
But you have to admit, it's pretty fucked up that if an unplanned pregnancy happens, a guy has zero legal rights if he doesn't want to support this kid for the next 18 years.
Just because a girl is good at sex doesn't mean she's what you're looking for in a mother, or someone you want to spend the rest of your life with.
Religion as a restricting aspect on female sexuality is dying out. And rightfully so. But it's unfair and cruel that you're expecting men to still uphold anachronistic religion-based sexual responsibility. Feminists are supposedly for Equal Opportunity, right?
So why is it that men should be held to a higher standard of responsibility than women?
Holy fuck you are incredibly sexist. I can't take you seriously anymore after basically telling me that the only reason women are at bars are to potentially please you sexually and be taken advantage of. The way you worded that made you sound extremely creepy. You know what? You win. Good day sir.
And you seem to be saying guys shouldn't have anywhere in public where it's deemed socially acceptable to openly express sexual interest to women.
Which is kind of ridiculous. And in your own words "Extremely Sexist". To the express the view that male sexuality should be restricted to the point of near non-existence in public life. Simply because it would give you a bit of an ego boost.
Thank you for demonstrating what it means to be a "True Feminist".
You don't understand modern feminism if you think feminists (which include men and women alike) want special treatment for anyone.
Edit: I expected the downvotes due to the misogynist nature of this subreddit, but damn your responses are disturbing.
True feminism preaches equality for all. The extremists are usually the loudest of any group, but they certainly don't speak for the group itself. What you all fail to realize is that every shitty thing that men had to endure that women didn't wasn't because women were cowards and didn't want to. They weren't allowed to do much of anything up until the last century or so! It doesn't matter who has endured what throughout when there are still atrocities CURRENTLY happening to millions of women around the world. Yes, men endure hardship as well, I'm not speaking lightly of that, but you are seriously ignoring facts if you think women don't have it worse, even by today's standards.
Anyways, I'm wasting my time here. Good luck in your endeavors.
Edit 2: by the way, true feminists will agree that these tumbler feminists and similar folk are fucking retarded, try researching a little outside of your little boxes.
Modern feminism is like the Tea Party or Occupy Wall Street. They had a purpose when they started, but then they got hijacked by extremists. After a while, most people regarded them as crazy, unintelligent idiots. If you actually believe in equality and you call yourself a feminist, then you are actually in the minority of people who call themselves feminists.
As the article says:
A survey done in the 1990s in the US found that more people believed that aliens had visited the country, than believed being called a feminist was a positive description
It's not my opinion, it is what everybody else actually thinks about feminists. TRP didn't even exist back then.
/r/TumblrInAction speaks volumes about modern feminism.
Even moderate fems are pretty ridiculous at times. There is no patriarchy in the US. If you think there is, you're part of the problem with modern feminism.
Feminism was needed when women were truly oppressed in this country, but now, calling yourself a feminist is like saying you want special treatment, otherwise you'd call yourself an egalitarian.
Sure, they are interested in equality for all as long as the effort put in benefits women. Feel free to prove me wrong by showing me a feminist movement fighting for a strictly male problem.
Do you not fucking SEE the fallacies when you write them? No true feminist this no true feminist that... Does your brain just ignore that? How does that even work? Do you not read what you write?
Disturbing responses? Where? Because they do not agree with you they are disturbing?
And you telling us to research outside of our "little boxes" is hilarious.
So you got "You don't understand, you're just ignorant" fallacy.
A "No true Scotsman" fallacy. Which ignore the actions taken by Feminists, and just restates their supposed intentions. But actions speak far louder than words.
A "you disagree with femenism, that must mean you're a woman hater" fallacy. Seriously? That's a pathetic cop-out, and you know it.
A refocus on girls in poor countries, even though virtually none of us are looking to date girls like that, so it's kind of irrelevant.
As far as "Seriously ignoring facts". What facts would those be?
I presented a heavy supply of facts myself. So far you've just stated an opinion.
It must have been "fake feminists" who lobbied against equal parenting rights legislation, lobbied for the Tender Years Doctrine, lobbied for VAWA and the Duluth Model, lobbied for no-fault divorce legislation?
Is it "fake feminists" who lie about, cover up, and skew any research or data showing gender symmetry in negative behavior or contradicts their consistent "woman good : man bad" message?
I have a bunch of feminists on my facebook. They all link random feminist articles, this one included. They all also do jack shit for the women of the 3rd world. All the articles they link revolve around the feminist movement in the first world. Fighting for more rights for women in the first world. Because they believe the propaganda that women are still treated with less rights in the Western world than men. Show me a feminist that is actually truly concerned about the 3rd world and I'll show you 5 that are more concerned about the Western world "Inequality".
Reminds me of how Michelle Obama and various Hollywood celebrities were recently furiously hashtagging "#BringBackOurGirls", and accomplished exactly jack shit. Because apparently tyrannical African warlords are kind of casually indifferent to people yelling at them on the internet.
"Ban bossy" for instance. I.e. Be selectively nice to girls.
I.e #YesAllWomen. Which practically treated all men with the hyperbole as potential serial killers. Despite the fact rape rarely happens to women by strangers, where as men are more than 3x likely to be murdered by a stranger. So men are asked to go out of their way to alleviate women's paranoia.
And while women aren't well represented as CEOs (as you hear so often), there are more women in management positions than men. (Especially interesting considering women participate in the workforce 10% less than men) * http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/statistical-overview-women-workplace
Like I said above, the gap between Equal Opportunity, and modern Feminism, is where modern Feminism is wrong.
The textbook answer feminists always give to anti-feminism is "but it's about equality."
That's powertalk. They are simply saying that because it's what they're "supposed" to say. No one wants to say "I am opposed to the equal treatment of women!" So now the burden of explanation is shifted from the feminist to the anti-feminist.
Take a look under the hood, and it's pretty clear to see that feminism doesn't give two shits about equality. It's all about a) more free shit for women, and b) language control so no one can say bad things about female behavior.
RedPillington 11y ago
i love the "extremist feminists aren't real feminists" argument. indeed, sweetie, they just run the political organizations, head the gender studies departments, write the majority of literature on the subject, and comprise the bulk of the activists. so who defines feminism?
Catch11 11y ago
I had a lesbian gender studies teacher that wasn't a feminist. She was cool as fuck.
[deleted] 11y ago
Pure comedy gold.
CornyHoosier 11y ago
I believe in aliens. Ha ha. But seriously, I do.
Part of this whole "red pill" endeavor I've been on means actually enjoying myself on dates instead of being stressed out. I recently talked to a woman for at least half an hour about aliens just to see what she'd say or do.
The next day she told me she thought it was the craziest thing anyone had ever said on a date ... but that she loved the confidence and passion.
Boom.
[deleted] 11y ago
I've explained to a girl my zombie plan in a dead serious tone, as if I were actually planning for a zombie apocalypse..... Which I am of course. Who doesn't have a zombie plan?
CornyHoosier 11y ago
I honestly feel that our eccentricities, passion and confidence let us stand out from the crowd. The fact that we won't bow down to societal pressure to act or think a certain way is what attracts others (especially women) to us.
Also, fuck yes you need a zombie plan. You should also have a bug out bag, know your exits and be able to quickly asses threats.
johnnight 11y ago
A zombie plan can always be used as an ebola plan.
bama79rolltide 11y ago
First case in America on Yahoo! today.
iluminatiNYC 11y ago
Facts on the zombie/Ebola connection. In fact, that is why the US Centers for Diesease Control periodically comes out with zombie defense plans.
fathak 11y ago
funny how the CDC "let go" half of their top guys not too long ago...
[deleted] 11y ago
But I dunno, should we start shooting Ebola victims in the head?
whatsazipper 11y ago
If they try to escape quarantine?
Definitely.
CornyHoosier 11y ago
I say yes. Better to err on the side of caution.
gprime312 11y ago
Yes, just make sure your mouth is closed when you do.
Iupvoteforknowledge 11y ago
And you are wearing a paintball mask.
johnnight 11y ago
That is as close to zombie apocalypse as we will get.
I would say the "zombiness factor" is not the bloodthirsty mindless packs looking to attack the healthy (movie stuff). It's zombiness just when carriers stupidly behave in ways that actively spread the disease, which you see in Africa right now, but can happen everywhere.
manslutalt 11y ago
If it spreads to Iceland and Madagascar, humanity is screwed.
magnetard 11y ago
sigh time to boot up Plague Inc.
Cypher211 11y ago
That's hilarious. In a way it's almost a shame to see how much more widely accepted feminism has become now in 2014 compared to back then. Although we're seeing the backlash against it it's still quite a considerable movement with its fair share of advocates
joncho 11y ago
Feminism is a big business and politically profitable, but it has never had very positive valuation among people, not even women.
Thats why you see the disconection between popular opinion vs political positions and media presence.
STARVE_THE_BEAST 11y ago
The great pussification marches onward.
human_bean_ 11y ago
Feminism is supported by marketers and big business, because it feeds the machine. Women are the natural consumers. Men are not.
Feminism is supported by the political elite, because it makes things more predictable and more easily manipulatable.
SabrinaPaige 11y ago
What could you possibly mean by feminism "keeps men down in their place"?
If you spent half as much time working to understand the complexities of feminism as you clearly have spent building women up as a collection of controlling, manipulative, oppressors, you would understand the silliness of your claim.
Historically, feminism has been fragmented. Sure, there have been (and likely still are) radical sections of feminism that are "anti-men". But these groups DO NOT represent the majority of feminists or the only line of feminist thinking. In fact, much of modern feminism is focused on helping men. Modern feminism recognizes that women aren't the only ones who suffer when there are rigid gender roles. Men suffer from the social standard of masculinity. Boys suffer when they are told to "man up" rather than express their emotions. Men suffer when they are ridiculed for aspirations that fall outside of the social order that has been set.
Look up some of Michael Kimmel's work on the development and repercussions of masculinity (he wrote an amazing book called "Guyland", if you're interested). Look up a documentary called "Tough Guise". Look up Jackson Katz. I think that these are the kinds of feminist pursuits that get ignored by people who argue that "all feminists just want to keep men down" and I think these are some feminist pursuits that are really important in the western world today.
RedditReddiRedd 11y ago
This isn't a bad thing, men should try to be masculine. This further proves the point that the goal of feminism is to emasculate men and give women all the power. Feminism tells men they should feel okay with not being masculine, and that they shouldn't follow "social standards" that encourage masculinity, all the while telling women that they should be strong and independent because that makes them empowered from men.
Men shouldn't let their emotions get the best of them, they shouldn't be afraid of feeling them, but if your emotions dictate your life then you need someone to act as a sort of "manager" for you because you can not control your emotions. If you act like this, you need a partner who is able to control their emotions. In a traditional society with gender roles, women where expected to let their emotions dictate their lives, whereas men where expected to take care of these women. If both men and women let their emotions run rampant then the result will not be good.
human_bean_ 11y ago
Women are natural manipulators. As they are physically weaker than men, and they are more protected, more provided for; playing social games of power and manipulation is second nature to them. Women who can't do this aren't successful. Manipulating men is an especially important instinct. I don't attach any moral judgement to this.
Historically, feminism has been a political movement to gain more power for women. I don't see how this has changed. Different women may have different ideas how to go about it. Feminism is one part lust for power, one part octopus ink.
Men being told functional truths instead of manipulative lies and distortions means women losing power over men.
I am also not interested in what other men say about how I should live. I have things I want out of life and I go after them. I do not care if other people consider that as masculine or not.
It seems to me men being out of control, out of reach of the claws of female manipulation is terrifying to them.
SabrinaPaige 11y ago
That's the thing: you CHOOSE to go for the things you want, regardless of the social standards for your gender. That is awesome, and that is one thing modern feminism is all about. However, you shouldn't blow off my suggestion for future research. If you're going to spout nonsense like "women are inherently manipulative" and "feminists just want to keep men down", don't you think you ought to have all the information you can?
Most feminists don't want power over men. In fact, many feminists are men, are in relationships with men, and/or care about men a lot. I've said it before, the negative stigma built up around the word "feminist", and the ridiculous stereotypes the come with it, are founded on a very small group of radical people. Using this image to define all feminists is a lot like looking at the Westboro Baptist Church and then deciding that all Christians are insensitive, vulgar, lunatics - which is absolutely ridiculous.
human_bean_ 11y ago
It's more like looking at the Westboro Baptist Church and deciding that all the members are equally insane and toxic. Of course they are not, but they are still members.
SabrinaPaige 11y ago
It's not though. There are so so so many different segments of feminist thought and practice. Each group has different goals and ideas about what feminism means. Lumping everyone together under the radical umbrella ignores the diversity that exists.
human_bean_ 11y ago
Western feminism is very homogeneous. Whine, bully and intimidate to get more power. Use excuses like equality, social justice and blaming men for everything as leverage. Minimize personal responsibility and accountability.
The feminine imperative has many goals and women are very smart in how they go about achieving them.
CornyHoosier 11y ago
Everything is cyclical until an equilibrium can be found.
For, most of human history, men have dominated every aspect of civilization. Its only been a couple generations since women in the United States, and most of the free world, have had the same rights as men. What we are seeing now is the pendulum swinging in the other direction to help advance women. Once people feel things have gone too far it will swing back.
crazyex 11y ago
Any advantage men had throughout history was generally paid for by obligation to serve the state through military action. Of course, "war hurts women the most", but since women are still exempt from selective service registration when they turn 18, they are enjoying the benefits without the responsibility. Such is feminism.
LukesLikeIt 11y ago
Its just a bunch of unattractive women who don't get any from men or the men they want attention from, so they push this new age feminism bullshit. A lot of good guys are so afraid of acting naturally around attractive women that they try ignore them which leads to sluttier and more revealing clothing in an attempt to do what they want to do naturally which is get mans attention. Feminism is about dragging the more successful women down to equal standing in attractiveness to the opposite sex by their equivalent of beta females.
[deleted] 11y ago
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MooMooMooN 11y ago
It's a delicious new way for them to get attention.
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blahbergstein 11y ago
All women are like that, but some women are more like that than others.
[deleted] 11y ago
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RedPillington 11y ago
pretty sure that's an animal farm reference. and yes, some women are indeed more slave to their impulses than others.
Average_Black_Man 11y ago
At least it is a beneficial bandwagon.
[deleted] 11y ago
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lucifa 11y ago
they even fight between themselves, 2nd and 3rd wave feminists and the like. all about who's the biggest victim
tobynomates 11y ago
do any of you guys realise how ironic it is for you to feel this way about it when youre basically the exact same as feminists in peoples eyes?
RedPope 11y ago
There is no irony or hypocrisy.
Other peoples' opinions are not our concern. Outsiders commonly mistake us for male rights activists. Their misunderstandings and ignorance of our beliefs are not our responsibility.
RedPill is a philosophy, not a movement. Advocacy and recruiting are discouraged. There is no organized effort or goal to change the outside public. Our focus is changing and educating ourselves.
Subtletorious 11y ago
"Peoples" opinions do not determine reality. Leave the post-modernist bullshit at the door, and if you can't, pick it up on your way out.
genuine_walrus 11y ago
The term "feminism" is stupid to begin with.
gekkozorz 11y ago
The concept of feminism is, in itself, contradictory.
If women were truly as strong and independent as feminists say they are, why do they need a social movement to solve all their problems? Why can't they just get shit done on their own?
Isn't the fact that they need a social movement to save them indicative of dependency, AKA, the opposite of independence?
[deleted] 11y ago
It's even easier to argue against "pro-equality feminism", which is conveniently nearly all feminists nowadays. I've posted this before, but just point out that "feminism" and "patriarchy" are gendered terms, and thus gender roles, even though feminists justify themselves by claiming to be egalitarian/against all forms of gender roles. Therefore It is hypocritical to claim to be both feminist and pro-equality. I've never seen hamster wheels take off nearly as fast as when you bring that up.
DirtyNamesGetBlocked 11y ago
Well, in this case that's not a fair point. Black people needed a movement. When men are in a bigger shithole than we currently are, we'll need a movement too. Whenever something is engrained in law or culture you need a pretty big push to get it out.
But this is strategy and politics. Has nothing to do with the group. The issue with feminism is that , as a group, those hamsters didn't spin very fast. The result is worse off for women. They traded protection and stability for what? Being Able to sleep with alphas? Beta orbiters? That entire movement destroyed the protection and stability most women need so that the 1% of women can live more prosperous. That 1% that already had all the freedoms that money brings.
incraved 11y ago
What happens if you apply this same argument on, for example, black people in the US?
RedPillington 11y ago
i think he overstates his point, but women are 50% of the population, not 10%.
gekkozorz 11y ago
Last time I checked, black people never claimed to be strong and independent. The reason feminism falls apart under logical scrutiny is because it has two claims which contradict each other.
Women are strong and independent and can do anything a man can do just as well or better
You can have one premise, but you can't have both. You're either strong and therefore you don't need society's help, or you're weak and you do need society's help. Pick one.
giraffecakes 11y ago
This comment is one of the most idiotic things I've ever read for so many reasons. Holy shit
gekkozorz 11y ago
Let me guess. You're the type of person who wants to believe that both premises can exist concurrently. That a woman can be super duper strong and independent; just as strong as any man... but also that women are victims and they need society to come in and rescue them from the patriarchy's evil ways.
And you started to type up a retort to my comment, but then you realized, holy shit, I'm right.
So instead of a logical response, you just gave me this extreme reaction.
Ok. Well, that's a kind of roundabout way of telling me that I'm right, but I'll take it, thanks.
giraffecakes 11y ago
No, I believe that African Americans do call themselves strong and independent, yet call for extra assistance like affirmative action. So many points like this in TRP are logically flawed and all over the place.
gekkozorz 11y ago
I don't believe black people go one way or the other on the strong/independence front. Maybe some do, maybe some don't.
But the whole "being strong/independent" thing is a major part of being a feminist. It's basically the whole point of the movement - that women are empowered and can do anything a man can do.
That's the main difference here - feminists say "I'm super strong and independent, but I want you to give me free shit as if I were weak and dependent," whereas black people who believe in affirmative action are simply saying, "I want you to give me free shit."
giraffecakes 11y ago
I don't agree. The civil rights movement and subsequent black power movements all refer to black people as being a strong, willful, powerful, and independent race. Yet they call for affirmative action and other "equalizing" legislation. The dichotomy isn't limited to the feminist movement.
gekkozorz 11y ago
The "black power" segment of the AA community certainly exists, yes. But that's a subset of AA culture, not an underlying aspect of the entire culture.
incraved 11y ago
I think they want women to be strong and independent, they aren't saying that they are already strong and independent.
gekkozorz 11y ago
Makes no difference either way. Whether women are assumed to be strong or independent already or whether strength and independence are the objective, the fact remains that strong/independent people shouldn't need entitlements.
If women are going to get special bonuses from society, that must mean that women are weak and dependent. You cannot say that "women are independent" out of one side of your mouth, and "women need society's help" out of the other, as the latter implies dependency.
Complecs 11y ago
Hashtag WomenAgainstFeminismForAttention
JustTruthful 11y ago
I don't mind as they are quite pretty on the average, unlike their feminist counterparts. Strange?
LineOfCoke 11y ago
to be fair most of them are covering their faces.
Complecs 11y ago
True, but it's posted to their instagram/Twitter, so sort of not really.
incraved 11y ago
So basically instagram/twitter is for attention?
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balalasaurus 11y ago
This reminds of a post I saw from 2X on the front page today. About a woman in a female dominated office who was afraid to speak up against the 'hazing' of a newly hired male employee. Reading the post, it struck me how, due to their 'feminist conditioning', most of the women (and the few Beta men) were perfectly alright with it. Luckily the OP and one other colleague were sensible enough to realize that, had they been in that position as women, they would have kicked up an HR shit storm. OP might not have acted but at least she had the sense to use a bit of empathy which is what feminists completely ignore. I think more and more women sooner or later are going to realize that 'ideal feminism' is just a dream and will never exist because it directly contradicts the feminine imperative. Women don't want to be equal to everyone else. They want to get their way regardless of how it affects everyone else.
Edit - some words
[deleted] 11y ago
This is not an accepted term, explain what you mean. To me it either means nothing or whatever the reader/writer want it to mean which is even more useless.
RedPillington 11y ago
Hey guys, I just wanted to stop in to let y'all know I've accepted the term "feminine imperative" now. We're cool.
Cheers,
RedPillington
balalasaurus 11y ago
Then what would you propose is a better term? Whichever way you wish to describe it the feminine imperative boils down to one thing: survival (not to be confused with simply staying alive as long as possible). The feminine imperative is the reason for the hypergamic behavior of women as they seek to maximize their chances of survival by attracting the most valuable mate to provide the most comfortable lifestyle to ensure the greatest chance of survival of their offspring. It's basically an extension of their solipsistic nature.
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mutantradio 11y ago
Is "redpill" an accepted term? Dude, Feminine Imperative gets thrown around here pretty often. How about you lurk for a few weeks instead of asking questions that a simple google search could answer. Not trying to be a dick btw.
http://therationalmale.com/category/the-feminine-imperative/
[deleted] 11y ago
Oh, I see, I thought I was in /r/MensRights.
elysius 11y ago
Who is in charge of accepting terms?
Pornography_saves_li 11y ago
The Patriarchal Inner Circle. They meet every third Tuesday of the month at Denny's.
Aaron565 11y ago
Here are some direct quotes from twitter #womenagainstfeminism:
Those are just my favorite, the rest are feminists complaining about the hashtag.
gekkozorz 11y ago
This is awfully close to the "my dog ate my homework" excuse.
So guyz, women are still oppressed, but it's super secret underground oppression and you just can't see it.
That's convenient.
TheIronViking 11y ago
It's like an oppressed hipster
My oppression is really obscure, you've probably never heard of it.
[deleted] 11y ago
But remember, people who criticize them are silly and think there's a conspiracy theory to take away their video games and make them apologize for being men.
But there's a secret, endemic, societal trend intending to oppress women.
[deleted] 11y ago
Well, I understand that some women don't want to be cat-called while walking down the street and that some men really do just want relations with women if sex is involved (e.g... "the friend zone") but this is just the reality of being a living human being. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH OR WANT TO BE AROUND.
Solution: Just say "fuck 'em".
I also deal with people who I can't stand on a daily basis. But what the feminist movement doesn't understand is that THAT'S LIFE. Equivalent to cat-calling.. Some idiot driving by and yelling some stupid shit at you in traffic, a drunk moron at the pub picking a fight. I don't need to start a movement to let these people know that I refuse to stoop to that level. This world is not paradise, plain and simple. DEAL WITH IT.
MooMooMooN 11y ago
They want to make it illegal for a man they consider unattractive to pay attention to them.
Nothing ruins a woman's day faster than someone they deem beneath them calling out to them.
Now sexual assault or yelling out "NICE <BODY PART HERE> BITCH/STUD!!!" is not acceptable from either gender.
And they simply do not want to take ANY responsibility for their actions.
Perpetual victims.
fapuffin 11y ago
Yeah, like how a single childless woman makes more than a single childless man, assuming they have the same education level. I forget the exact stat, does anyone have it? That stat alone nullifies the whole income inequality bullshit.
internet_terrorist 11y ago
Probably before counting government benefits.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-27/when-work-punished-tragedy-americas-welfare-state
[deleted] 11y ago
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RedBigMan 11y ago
Lets compare stripper income to just guys who work at 7/11.
nicethingyoucanthave 11y ago
[citation needed]
iluminatiNYC 11y ago
Remember that this is an Australian source, not an American one. Considering that Commonwealth countries tried dumb shit like effectively criminalize women playing soccer, I wouldn't be surprised.
RPDBF 11y ago
Yes Rosie the riveter was locked up -__-
PhilipeNegro 11y ago
Seriously. That's one hell of a claim to make without citing policy.
AlmostRP 11y ago
That's coming from someone who has a PhD... incredible
incraved 11y ago
Mate, no offence to anyone, but people doing PhDs and postgrad studies in social sciences can get away with a lot of shit.
I personally don't have much intellectual respect for them. It's more about how much work you can read and how much you can write in a way that makes it harder to understand and make you sound intelligent.
Social sciences are not maths. You can have two people argue about something for ages, it's not "1+1=2 PERIOD".
whitey_male 11y ago
Feminists always talk about equal pay. They very rarely mention that maybe on average a female accountant makes less than a male one. Its usually in the guise that a call centre operator deserves to be paid as much as an electrical engineer. And they're never willing to see that maybe male accountants work harder.
But it's too late. Feminism has done so much damage that if it were to end today it would take 50 years for society to recover. That won't happen any time soon they have embedded themselves into leftist politics. Its one of the reasons why the right still gets elected even though the right us often very detrimental to the middle class and poor. In Australia we just got rid of a leftist woman PM because we just couldn't stand the PC anymore. So not only are feminists doing a lot of damage to man/woman relationships, they are hurting the finances and well being of the middle and lower classes and preventing progress you usually get from the left like clean energy.
[deleted] 11y ago
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whitey_male 11y ago
Yeah yeah that's the standard excuse from leftist faggots. Much easier to blame others.
LineOfCoke 11y ago
I like how th whole thing is over because w pretty woman who married a very wealthy, unattractive man with a history of beta tendencies posted a picture of herself styled as Rosie the Rivetter. feminism proven.
[deleted]
[deleted] 11y ago
Women who rely on a social movement in order to justify their feelings and actions is the equivalent of men who rely on PUA tricks and manipulation to sleep with women. If you're a natural (an independent woman or a "natural" man), then you don't need someone else's ethos to dictate your self-worth.
Also, I can't stand people who talk smack on folks who are OKAY with traditional gender roles. It's not affecting you. I don't give women shit for not shaving their armpits and opening independent books stores where 90% of their selection is gender studies. In fact, I'm happy those people are standing up for something they believe in.. However, I'm going to live my life the way that I want, if I'm an "evil privileged straight white male" for doing so in your eyes, then so be it.
[deleted] 11y ago
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Average_Black_Man 11y ago
Same, man. It seems like the problem is grossly distorted sometimes.
Catch11 11y ago
There are a lot of things that the internet would make you believe are a big thing. Like hipsters.
[deleted]
untouchedURL 11y ago
Here is a non-mobile link: http://news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/womenagainstfeminism-goes-viral-as-people-explain-why-they-dont-need-feminism-anymore/story-fnixwvgh-1227010590106
Sourcecode | How am I doing?
ConfidenceMatters 11y ago
feel like i contributed to this.
forreal
[deleted]
t_rev99 11y ago
http://iwantedwings.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/a-response-to-women-against-feminism/
Edit: doubt all of you will see this, but a relevant article I read this morning:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/30/feminism-makes-women-victims-sexist-women-against-feminism
TattedGuyser 11y ago
The year is 2014. You are a 18 year old man drafted into the army against your will. War has erupted in the west. Where once you stood in the busy streets of NY, you now stand in a blood stained valley of corpses. You are not even sure where you are anymore. You had no choice, because if you did choose otherwise, it'd be a life of imprisonment. You were a businessman, a successful one at that. But none of that matters anymore. As you stand in the field, the long winding sound of sirens fills the air around you, although you hardly notice it. Ahead of you you see the advance of a battalion of troops and tanks, moving down on your position. Friends and comrades alike have all started to take their lives. What else could they do? You're all trapped. Soon the enemy will capture you and you will be tortured for information. You'll beg for death, and want to give them information just so you can die... but it'll never come. Your screams will fill the halls of the dungeon, like so many more around you. Maybe that bullet in your chamber is your salvation...
See.. I can write up stuff too. This is also real stuff that has happened to real men who arn't so much alive today, but fought so these women could live the lives they enjoy. The stories my grandfather would tell me.. wow.
Average_Black_Man 11y ago
Not sure why you're downvoted. It's extremely easy to appeal to emotion, which is pretty much all feminists do.
TattedGuyser 11y ago
I like to attribute it to the new use circle jerk. Every so often someone will throw down a good piece of humor and I'll chuckle, but will have a mostly negative score. Same kind of thing I imagine.
nicethingyoucanthave 11y ago
I really wish that people like you would stick around and defend the things you post. But you're always drive-by posters. You get your little dig in, and then you're gone.
In this case, someone replied to this stupid blog post and all you could come up with is the tired, "you don't understand" response.
I mean, you could defend yourself here, or on neutral ground like /r/purplepilldebate if you like. But you people never do it. One or two posts and you're out. It's quite pathetic.
Pornography_saves_li 11y ago
They're called 'seagull feminists', they fly in, shit all over the place, then fly away.
DirtyNamesGetBlocked 11y ago
Its an argument from emotion. There's nothing to defend. Outside of "you haven't been brainwashed to think like we do" they have no actual arguments.
RedBigMan 11y ago
That is what the downvote button is for... crappy links with no support behind them.
t_rev99 11y ago
Check out the link I replied to CaptainFalconer with of a relevant article I read this morning.
nicethingyoucanthave 11y ago
and what happens if I take the time to read it and attempt to have a conversation with you? You'll just ignore whatever I say, right?
jobs33ker 11y ago
ppd is NOT neutral ground at all. It's run by the mods of TBP
osc_a_lot 11y ago
Yeah man, and like, they're totally run by lizard people too!
CaptainFalconer 11y ago
That right there is the problem with modern Feminism.
Poor girls in the third world, they need equal opportunity. Sure.
If you say you want equal treatment, but then expect special treatment, you are a lying hypocrite. Men don't get any of that shit. So why should you?
Trying to conflate the two situations is disgusting.
The gap between Equal Opportunity and modern Feminism, is where modern Feminism is wrong.
t_rev99 11y ago
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/30/feminism-makes-women-victims-sexist-women-against-feminism
CaptainFalconer 11y ago
Men are near equally likely to be sexually harassed. And equally likely to be victims of domestic violence. http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html http://jezebel.com/5509717/domestic-violence-are-women-as-abusive-as-men
Men are objectified on the basis of their body, AND wallet. (Flagrantly). Most of this subreddit is angled towards leveraging that fact to your advantage.
Men are 3x more likely to be killed by a stranger. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf
As discussed above, the pay gap is nearly zero, would be far better if women negotiate as often as men, and in women's favour if they are childless. http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html
Only part where the article is right is that women need better access to abortion in some states. But nearly all TRPers would agree on that. Not having to pay 18 years of child support when you don't want to is awesome. TRP is largely pro-choice.
So again what "facts" about the need/virtue of modern feminism are we so oblivious about? I'm not seeing any.
t_rev99 11y ago
For the first article, your use of the phrase "nearly as likely" is subjective. The figure was 38%.
I'll give you the fact that men are probably equally as likely to be victims of domestic violence.
I'm not sure why you would want to use being objectified to your advantage. No one wants to be objectified. Feminists don't want anybody to be objectified. It does happen more to women though. How often have you gone to a bar and felt like the only reason you were there is to be hit on? How often have you been at work and received blatant unwarranted flirting or inappropriate remarks? Women deal with that constantly. They are made to feel like their only redeeming quality is how attractive they are. It's not hard to get with a woman because they think they are above you, it's because most of us men can't think of anything better to say than "Hey beautiful." I'll stop here to avoid the risk of sounding redundant. That's just the tip of the iceberg.
I'll agree that men are more likely to be harmed in public.
The first article about pay gap admits that the gap is still there. The second article is good news to me if it's true! I haven't done anymore research on the claims that were made, but it's great if women are starting to make more and are becoming more successful. Personally, I think it might be because young males of our generation are kind of lost in some weird stage of pseudo-adolescents and we can't seem to grow up or figure out where to begin our lives. Women have been forced to be steadfast and hardworking. They have to work much harder to get to where they want to be. That's what I think the pay gap more is about. Men don't have to work nearly as hard to be taken seriously. I see it at my job everyday., I dunno, maybe you live in a more progressive area if you don't see it.
I'm glad we can agree on pro-choice, although I don't think I can agree with your attitude about children you don't want. If you want to have sex, you should be prepared to deal with potential consequences maturely.
CaptainFalconer 11y ago
On the first bit, I was referring to this:
That said, women are lucky as hell that they don't need to approach men hardly at all to begin relationships. That responsibility almost always falls on the guy. And given our culture, guys have shitty game. But really unless guys are encouraged to be more adept at gaming girls, or girls start actively asking out guys on a regular basis. Guys are going to ask. And how the hell is a guy supposed to know other guys talked to you earlier in the day. He's not psychic. So don't blame a guy for not knowing something he couldn't possibly know.
But besides which though "blatant unwarranted flirting or inappropriate remarks". Essentially this gets into "Creepiness", I.e. undesired sexual advances. Problem with that, is that it's entirely subjective to what a woman is comfortable with, and how sexy the guy is. (I.e. You're expecting guys to be able to read your mind.)
Guys hitting on girls in bars? Well fucking duh! A guy isn't paying a shit ton of money to go to a loud bar, to buy overpriced alcohol and snacks just to hang out and talk. He's going there because the girls are, by definition, older than 18. They have alcohol to make them less inhibited towards sex. And the girls intentionally dress sexier. If you're looking for beer and conversation, go to a dive bar. Otherwise it's like you signed up to OKCupid or SpeedDating just to meet friends, and are trying to shame people who take it as an open invitation to show sexual interest.
As far as sexual attractiveness being a primary aspect of what makes a woman attractive to a man. Consider this. http://youtu.be/5oyrG3PcgLk
And just for the hell of it I'll toss this in there. (Women are lucky all they gotta do is as simple as gym+diet. Simple. Relatively easy!)
http://youtu.be/qbJOLq5wXwk
As for the pay gap thing, I think you're projecting a lot of assumptions beyond the facts. But in nearly every study men work longer hours, more stressful work, more dangerous, worse schedule, and less fulfilling positions. There's 3 women graduating college for every 2 men, but all but a tiny minority graduate in "hardworking" STEM majors. A vast majority go into "pink collar" jobs, which are notably more comfortable, albeit lower paying.
As far as "dealing with the potential consequences maturely", I'm totally okay using condoms, and if an unplanned pregnancy happens anyways, I'm cool paying the $2000 or so for the abortion.
But you have to admit, it's pretty fucked up that if an unplanned pregnancy happens, a guy has zero legal rights if he doesn't want to support this kid for the next 18 years.
Just because a girl is good at sex doesn't mean she's what you're looking for in a mother, or someone you want to spend the rest of your life with.
Religion as a restricting aspect on female sexuality is dying out. And rightfully so. But it's unfair and cruel that you're expecting men to still uphold anachronistic religion-based sexual responsibility. Feminists are supposedly for Equal Opportunity, right?
So why is it that men should be held to a higher standard of responsibility than women?
t_rev99 11y ago
Holy fuck you are incredibly sexist. I can't take you seriously anymore after basically telling me that the only reason women are at bars are to potentially please you sexually and be taken advantage of. The way you worded that made you sound extremely creepy. You know what? You win. Good day sir.
CaptainFalconer 11y ago
And you seem to be saying guys shouldn't have anywhere in public where it's deemed socially acceptable to openly express sexual interest to women.
Which is kind of ridiculous. And in your own words "Extremely Sexist". To the express the view that male sexuality should be restricted to the point of near non-existence in public life. Simply because it would give you a bit of an ego boost.
Thank you for demonstrating what it means to be a "True Feminist".
t_rev99 11y ago
You don't understand modern feminism if you think feminists (which include men and women alike) want special treatment for anyone.
Edit: I expected the downvotes due to the misogynist nature of this subreddit, but damn your responses are disturbing.
True feminism preaches equality for all. The extremists are usually the loudest of any group, but they certainly don't speak for the group itself. What you all fail to realize is that every shitty thing that men had to endure that women didn't wasn't because women were cowards and didn't want to. They weren't allowed to do much of anything up until the last century or so! It doesn't matter who has endured what throughout when there are still atrocities CURRENTLY happening to millions of women around the world. Yes, men endure hardship as well, I'm not speaking lightly of that, but you are seriously ignoring facts if you think women don't have it worse, even by today's standards.
Anyways, I'm wasting my time here. Good luck in your endeavors.
Edit 2: by the way, true feminists will agree that these tumbler feminists and similar folk are fucking retarded, try researching a little outside of your little boxes.
Edit 3: relevant article I read this morning: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/30/feminism-makes-women-victims-sexist-women-against-feminism
noblepaladin 11y ago
Modern feminism is like the Tea Party or Occupy Wall Street. They had a purpose when they started, but then they got hijacked by extremists. After a while, most people regarded them as crazy, unintelligent idiots. If you actually believe in equality and you call yourself a feminist, then you are actually in the minority of people who call themselves feminists.
As the article says:
It's not my opinion, it is what everybody else actually thinks about feminists. TRP didn't even exist back then.
[deleted] 11y ago
/r/TumblrInAction speaks volumes about modern feminism.
Even moderate fems are pretty ridiculous at times. There is no patriarchy in the US. If you think there is, you're part of the problem with modern feminism.
Feminism was needed when women were truly oppressed in this country, but now, calling yourself a feminist is like saying you want special treatment, otherwise you'd call yourself an egalitarian.
[deleted] 11y ago
Sure, they are interested in equality for all as long as the effort put in benefits women. Feel free to prove me wrong by showing me a feminist movement fighting for a strictly male problem.
RPsixthree 11y ago
Do you not fucking SEE the fallacies when you write them? No true feminist this no true feminist that... Does your brain just ignore that? How does that even work? Do you not read what you write?
Disturbing responses? Where? Because they do not agree with you they are disturbing?
And you telling us to research outside of our "little boxes" is hilarious.
CaptainFalconer 11y ago
So you got "You don't understand, you're just ignorant" fallacy.
A "No true Scotsman" fallacy. Which ignore the actions taken by Feminists, and just restates their supposed intentions. But actions speak far louder than words.
A "you disagree with femenism, that must mean you're a woman hater" fallacy. Seriously? That's a pathetic cop-out, and you know it.
A refocus on girls in poor countries, even though virtually none of us are looking to date girls like that, so it's kind of irrelevant.
As far as "Seriously ignoring facts". What facts would those be?
I presented a heavy supply of facts myself. So far you've just stated an opinion.
marzoopial 11y ago
It must have been "fake feminists" who lobbied against equal parenting rights legislation, lobbied for the Tender Years Doctrine, lobbied for VAWA and the Duluth Model, lobbied for no-fault divorce legislation?
Is it "fake feminists" who lie about, cover up, and skew any research or data showing gender symmetry in negative behavior or contradicts their consistent "woman good : man bad" message?
Those damn "fake feminists" who have made volumes of bigoted anti-male statements?
Equality for all? Please point us to:
We'll wait. Maybe try researching a little outside of your little box.
kborz1 11y ago
What is modern feminism then? Can you explain it please?
phomaniac 11y ago
I have a bunch of feminists on my facebook. They all link random feminist articles, this one included. They all also do jack shit for the women of the 3rd world. All the articles they link revolve around the feminist movement in the first world. Fighting for more rights for women in the first world. Because they believe the propaganda that women are still treated with less rights in the Western world than men. Show me a feminist that is actually truly concerned about the 3rd world and I'll show you 5 that are more concerned about the Western world "Inequality".
gekkozorz 11y ago
Reminds me of how Michelle Obama and various Hollywood celebrities were recently furiously hashtagging "#BringBackOurGirls", and accomplished exactly jack shit. Because apparently tyrannical African warlords are kind of casually indifferent to people yelling at them on the internet.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bnn9A-jIcAEsV6j.jpg:large
bam2_89 11y ago
Their biggest concern about the third world is usually "cultural appropriation."
CaptainFalconer 11y ago
Bullshit. Nearly every feminist campaign I've seen is asking men to give "positive freedoms" to women. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_liberty
Previous first and second wave feminist movements were all about "negative freedoms". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_liberty
"Ban bossy" for instance. I.e. Be selectively nice to girls.
I.e #YesAllWomen. Which practically treated all men with the hyperbole as potential serial killers. Despite the fact rape rarely happens to women by strangers, where as men are more than 3x likely to be murdered by a stranger. So men are asked to go out of their way to alleviate women's paranoia.
"I deserve equal pay, even though I don't do equal work. And I hardly ever run the risk to negotiate for pay raises or starting bonuses."
Heck, for single/childless women in cities, (of which the vast majority of Facebook feminists would be) they earn a median 8% more than men. http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html
And while women aren't well represented as CEOs (as you hear so often), there are more women in management positions than men. (Especially interesting considering women participate in the workforce 10% less than men) * http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/statistical-overview-women-workplace
Like I said above, the gap between Equal Opportunity, and modern Feminism, is where modern Feminism is wrong.
gekkozorz 11y ago
Correct. ♂
The textbook answer feminists always give to anti-feminism is "but it's about equality."
That's powertalk. They are simply saying that because it's what they're "supposed" to say. No one wants to say "I am opposed to the equal treatment of women!" So now the burden of explanation is shifted from the feminist to the anti-feminist.
Take a look under the hood, and it's pretty clear to see that feminism doesn't give two shits about equality. It's all about a) more free shit for women, and b) language control so no one can say bad things about female behavior.
t_rev99 11y ago
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/30/feminism-makes-women-victims-sexist-women-against-feminism
gekkozorz 11y ago
This is powertalk. Of course no one's going to straight up say "I want to be a victim." That diminishes the whole point of being a victim.
If you have something to say, don't be a coward and hide behind articles full of feminist drivel. Use your own words.
t_rev99 11y ago
I tried and everyone accused me of logical fallacies.
gekkozorz 11y ago
So instead you're linking us to articles filled with logical fallacies? That'll show us.
trpbot 11y ago
Confirmed: 1 point awarded to /u/CaptainFalconer by gekkozorz. ^[History]
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