A pretty surefire way to know that someone is new here is if they're asking a question about whether or not they're doing one specific thing right. It doesn't really matter what it is, because the fact that it can be right or wrong is usually an indicator of an external locus of control and a lack of a personal mission.
They're looking into the future, calculating the moves to their end point, despite their interest not being the endpoint itself, but what they want to extract from it.
They want to start a business selling frozen banana's because they believe such a thing to be profitable or that it'd be a good way to launder money, rather than being interested in the concept or experience of running the stand itself.
The poster who is wet behind the ears asks "how much time, is too much time, playing video games?"
The optimist says "Nothin' wrong with a little bit of game time. Play to your heart's content."
The blowhard says "that is a waste of your time, it's trash."
The answer is individual and somewhere in between.
Most issues, will with enough introspective honesty be easy to rectify and will allow someone to deduce the way forward. As it turns out, human beings are rife with self deception.
Mark Manson addressed this meta debate in depth as a critique in his book Models, which I never really stop talking about because it so greatly understands and articulates how to solve the problem that men who lack vision to their future end up encountering when they start trying to checklist and research their way into the future without a real end goal in mind outside of "best practices." A very male problem, but one with maturity that solves itself.
The mistake that most people make when they're starting out is that they're trying to reverse engineer their way forward to an end point. Which can seem similar enough to moving authentically to the same end point (which instead we'd call self growth).
The classic example Manson gives in his book is to contrast day game culture with a more authentic approach to the same thing.
The day game PUA, taking Roosh's game plan approaches every woman who passes the minimum threshold of attractiveness and subjects her to his incongruence paying him pity unless he is so viscerally attractive their wants overlap by chance, not by skill at all. And so, the vast majority of these men report back approaching 1000 women with 990 rejections, 10 phone numbers, 5 of which are bogus, and a couple dates from women who took pity on them. Because he wants sex and believes that this will validate him, not because he wants to increase his skills of talking to women he wants to talk to.
I would argue that most, even the vast majority of men using this approach to meeting women as part of their skillset do not enjoy this. They do it as a form of compulsion or a means to an end. Many of them referring to themselves as robots.
Instead, Manson argues that men should approach women they are actually interested in, a certainly blue pill look at the world, but there is a truth nested inside of this message.
The irony is that for some men, being the pick up robot is authentic to their being. And these are the very men that end up being successful with this approach.
What they want, and how they will get it, are congruent. These are the RSD Julien's and the like of the world. Whether or not these men stage their interactions is mostly irrelevant. It's not really the point. The larger point, is that these are guys that have created a world, let's call it a "mission" for themselves where the way forward to their end point, and how they want to get there are completely congruent.
And so these two men, hopeful blue pill PUA and the professional PUA each given identical banana stands will have vastly different outcomes. Not only would we expect authenticity to drive a higher profit, but overall happiness can be derived from the process of running the stand rather than it being "a job."
Toyota has a concept called Kaizen, which is an internal manufacturing ethos to drive continuous self improvement. It is a form of the scientific method crossed with the very concepts we're talking about here.
Roughly, the process is this.
- Plan
- Do
- Check
- Act
Starting at point #1, we can expect that these two men will have similar plans having similar end goals. They will play out similar game plans approaching women, but this is where the similarities will end.
They will have vastly different outcomes and how they move forward.
Men who live authentically see each challenge as a learning experience and part of the bigger picture, they are motivated by their failures as much as their victories. This entire process is organic and logarithmic.
While the man who has reverse engineered his path to the end goal, instead can only refer to others on how they may achieve another man's goal.
That is why these questions are so telling.
If you had a mission, the answers would be obvious. The difference between one man's or another man's answer would be superfluous.
This is an absent meta discussion involving famous PUAs. What makes their lives possible or even worth living, for the time, is that it is their life. And if you read enough of these guys telling their life stories, you ultimately find out they did the whole thing for validation.
An external locus of control, authentic mission to find validation through sexual success.
Looks like it's back to plan.
So now we have a good origin story of how a man arrived into the dysfunctional relationship(s) he has in his life. Now lets rewind that relationship you had before she blew your ego and soul into a million pieces and ask your former self some questions.
What did you want in your relationship, and what did you do to make that possible?
For most men, they arrived at this relationship by accident, without a mission and maybe even gamed themselves into the chair with her. For most guys, they didn't get the girl because they had a mission and were really all that great. They were Children with Dynamite, coined by Ross Jeffries.
And the reason why, they were children with dynamite, is because they were an incongruent mess, without boundaries.
The writings here are rife with descriptions of how to manage this very dynamic of her pushing boundaries and perception within the relationship. But ultimately, the failing of most men who land here is that they lacked boundaries and willingness to enforce standards on their relationship(s) on top of the fact they had no real mission.
The origin story of these men is necessary because boundaries and expectations can only be enforced reliably by men who are operating in an authentic frame.
They demand things from their partners that inexperienced men scoff at, that they can't believe. Because the frame of these inexperienced men is desperate, the only expectations they can create and reliably enforce with the women in their lives is desperation.
And so, when she pushes, if he were to push back, she replies in a way that sub communicates you are desperate.
She laughs at him, derides him, storms out etc.
Most men identify with this perspective because their "mission" is her. Enough has been written to this end so I wont rehash it. Instead, to focus on the point being, that you can only enforce boundaries of a frame you actually own.
And so, outcome independence and an authentic mission are prerequisites to boundaries and requirements in a relationship.
And so now we've covered the origin of the incongruent man, and steps to an authentic frame to enforce expectations and boundaries in your relationship(s).
The cap stone, is that you get the relationship you deserve.
If you are an incongruent man without a mission who is not doing things women find desirable, you should expect to be treated like an incongruent man without a mission who is not doing things women find desirable. And from that, we would expect he has no boundaries and can't enforce them.
If you are a congruent man with a mission who is doing things women find desirable, you should expect to be treated like a congruent man who has a mission who is doing things women find desirable. And from that, we would expect he has boundaries and can enforce them.
Between these two men, one will have the relationship they want the other will not. But they both get the relationship they deserve.

BarracudaRP 7y ago
Fucking phenomenal post. There is a lot to chew on here. I've struggled with what you describe - the reverse engineering of a goal, which usually ends up being what I thought I wanted at that time. And like going to the gym, we should end up falling in love with the process of becoming better.
Your points on authenticity were spot on and gave me a lot to think about. I've used the advice of RSD coaches, to follow your example, which is a fine start but isn't really successful until it's authentic. Until then, it's cringey and uncalibrated. But it's in that grey area, where I was learning to be authentic, that's where the "fake it till you make it" comes in. A lot of guys get started with faking it, find it too uncomfortable (incongruent), and give up.
[deleted] 7y ago
There’s always money in the banana stand.
Auvergnat 7y ago
Mark Manson is pandering to female opinion.
His subtitle to Models "attract women through honesty", or his insistence at being "congruent" are the typical female advices of "just be confident" and "just be yourself" by other names. In short, it calls for the men who are already attractive to women to just keep doing what they already do, while calling for unattractive men to not change a thing to what they do so that they don't "trick" women into sleeping with betas.
His message makes perfect sense from the point of view of a guy who is already at the top.
But what is the guy who is not confident to do? Become confident? But that wouldn't be "being himself"! Maybe he could approach 1000 women until he becomes confident? But that would be being a "social robot"!
For these guys, there are methods to learn Game the hard way: through practice. If a girl is hot, she's a target to practice your social skills. It's not a pretty method but it gets you there.
Manson is the master guitarist who teaches you to "feel music" and "develop your own style" and "play what you love", but hardly ever touch a guitar. Works if you're already good, or gifted.
Roosh is the master guitarist who teaches you to practice your scales and arpeggios 1h every day for three months or until your fingers bleed. Works if you start from zero.
Manson was a PUA yesterday who fucked his way through 100s of women, and today a mainstream author selling his latest self-help book by the millions.. thanks to his opinion pandering to the feminine-approved way of seeing relationships.
Roosh was also a PUA yesterday who also fucked his way though 100s of women, and today a pariah of society, a provocateur who needs to organize security to ensure his family is safe from the SJW mob.. thanks to his TRP-inspired opinion catering to males' actual sexual needs.
sadomasochrist 7y ago
More succinctly I'm disputing learning guitar to get women within this context. If you want to learn guitar because you like the instrument, absolutely shred your fingers till you bleed. You'll get the spoils of your sacrifice.
But if you're learning it because you think it'll get you women, your fingers will bleed but it's unlikely you'll end up being any good.
We may be on different sides of the PUA camp. A lot of guys think of PUA as marketing, but it's IMO more like HR best practices. How not to destroy what visceral attraction gives you. In the TRP vs PUA debate, I consider our viewpoint much more effective, because you're improving your product. And anecdotally we see a lot more success here from guys than the PUA guys seem to see (unless they're already fairly attractive and they're just putting themselves out there).
And lastly to this end, I'm advocating that time invested in trying to hoc your product randomly isn't an effective life strategy unless you are actually interested in the idea itself (eg. RSD guys).
Then hit the streets and give out your mix tape. With Manson, ultimately I agree with his message of congruence and I dispute the idea of trying to learn inner game as opposed to growing it through authentic masculinity (which we boil down to the concept of having a mission).
And from an authentically masculine man with strong inner game grows boundaries and an ability to enforce expectations, where as the man who has "faked it till he made it," will lack the robust world view to authentically defend his frame.
Some men can fake this authenticity, but they're rare. Which is why we call men who do this at the highest levels artists. Con artists.
You're advocating practice to grow to this end as a worthy strategy, I'm considering it a fools errand, where as instead I consider standard TRP practices best practices. Work on your mission, lift, keep your eyes peeled, the rest follows.
Though I understand this is not a completely settled topic within TRP, we are on different sides of this debate.
Proto_Sigma 7y ago
I think that you two aren't so much opposed as seeing two parts of a greater whole.
I'd say male sexual strategy is analogous to selling, not marketing. It's similar but not quite the same. You are a product, and simultaneously, since you can not expect anyone to advocate for you, you are the company that makes and sells your product.
If you can't market your product, it doesn't matter how good it is, most people aren't going to buy it. And if your product is bad, or your service is shitty, or your HR department is occupied with SJW guilt instead of actually running the company smoothly, no matter how well you try and polish that turd at the end of the day it's going to be a turd.
There are fat, out of shape, loser guys who have spent so much effort approaching women that they experience some modicum of success, because approach and seduction are both skills that have to be honed via practice. And there are jacked, good looking, high value guys who get tongue tied and cowardly.
Both will probably experience some limited success, but each would be better served by working on their flaws. Men should lift, get stronger and healthier, and learn skills; aside from raising your value on the Sexual Market Place it increases your quality of life and gives you a foundation for a rock solid frame. But simultaneously they should approach women as they are, especially if they are bad at approach, not because they enjoy the approach itself but because the best way to get good at something is to try, fail horribly, figure out what went wrong and then try again until you figure it out. People love doing things they're good at, and that will come with time.
Blackhawk2479 7y ago
There’s always money in the banana stand.
Mr-Ed209 7y ago
The biggest thing I can preach is just getting to a place where you understand women more and can honestly judge yourself as to where you stand in their eyes. Remove your ego and cut/remove interactions that don't fit your needs and play along where they do.
For example I currently have a nice 2 plates spinning.
Plate 1 is an old friend. We're old party buddies from way back and hook up whenever we end up drinking together. She respects me, I respect her. Neither of us expect anything out of it, and I'm in no delusions that she views me as some mega alpha or anything. I'm just that cool guy who knows how to flirt with her and vacant enough times that when we do cross paths we're both usually keen to fuck. The sex is, well sex. But it's more about enjoying a drink together, enjoying each others company and going home together because we both find each other attractive, so why not.
Plate 2 is a tinder conquest. 20 years old and some of the freakiest sex I've had. Now to her I am viewed as alpha. We met when I was taking trips to her city for work, where I was always staying in nice hotels or apartments. That combination of my being older, being sexually forward (that I know guys her age aren't capable of) and having a seemingly put together life makes her bow to my frame immensely. She always turns up dressed to the 9s and turns heads in every bar we go to. In the bedroom I'm fully dominant and she loves it. Our meetings are purely sexual.
With plate 1 I could never get away with being that guy. She knows me from years back and it would get weird if I started slapping her around and choking her out. And likewise if I started getting to chatty with plate 2 she would lose interest. Not every encounter has to be a battle of frames and out alphaing. Just being aware to the point of reading girls intentions and fulfilling them where you can is usually the best way to go.
ex_addict_bro 7y ago
First part of your post reminds me what Steven Chandler (coach, writer, not related to TRP) wrote about selling. You forget yourself, you focus on the customer, you focus on how can you serve the customer.
It's the same with women. What do they want? Strong, manly leaders, who won't respond emotionally to her fluctuations. Focus on what women (really) want, then focus how can you give it to them.
"a congruent man with a mission who is doing things women find desirable"
Focus on the customer. Forget about yourself, focus on the mission, focus on the lifts.
As for the second part of the post, every single man around you has in his life exactly what he wants, doesn't matter if he says it is so or not.
X_fire 7y ago
This one pretty much sums it up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYlPhFj_3T0
[deleted]
[deleted] 7y ago
But u can have such missions that women will not meet you on them.
sadomasochrist 7y ago
Then you have authentically become MGTOW. Otherwise return to
[deleted]
[deleted]
Solomint 7y ago
calm down dude, forget about the colors of the various pills and just make sure to take the ones the doctors gave you..