TL;DR: Met (Girl A) while helping a friend move. She showed high interest (playful, compliant, invested). Got her number, waited 5 days, then tried to set up a date. She flaked/hesitated several times, answered once with uncertainty, then missed my confirmation call. I’ve decided to next her. Her Roommate (Girl B) showed IOIs; considering whether to pivot or focus on grind. Need blunt feedback.
BACKGROUND: I’m a guy in my mid-twenties who has been deeply studying Red Pill philosophy and Game (Have read, Swinggcat, Mystery, Rollo Tomassi, Corey Wayne etc) after realizing my own past beta tendencies. I'm actively working on building a high-value frame. Here’s my current situation:
FINANCES: I just finished university. I'm not rich yet, but I'm financially independent through freelance tech gigs, able to cover my needs and my own rented apartment. I'm working on executing my own startup idea.
PHYSIQUE: I've been lifting consistently for 1 year and 5 months and have built significant muscle.
LOOKS: To be objective, I'm a good-looking guy, around an 8/8.5 on the scale. I've received high levels of admiration and IOIs from girls since I was young. (I even had an extreme incident as a child where an older girl aggressively came onto me, which I mention only to underscore the level of attention I've gotten. When I was 7 (2007), a girl tried to seduce me but I ran away and nothing happened).
MY CORE ISSUE: Despite the IOIs, I have never spun plates or had sex. I'm still a virgin. I typically either screw things up by becoming needy/beta, chatting on Whatsapp too much, etc. after the initial approach, OR sometimes I just lose interest and ignore the girl early on, failing to capitalize on the opportunities. My mission is to break this cycle by fully internalizing Redpill and game doctrine, achieving an alpha frame—outcome independence, leading, and eliminating neediness.
THE SITUATION: It was Monday, I was helping a friend move his last items out of his old apartment, which five new female roommates had just moved into.
THE INITIAL INTERACTION (The Meet): While moving a couch, one of the girls offered to help. I delayed and said, "If you want." Before she could move, her roommate, let's call her (Girl A), stepped up, grabbed the couch, and said, "Let's go." We carried it out together.
I then said, "Sorry, there's one more thing, the TV stand." She said, "No problem," and we moved that too. She even stayed by the truck with me, helping arrange the items with the driver—showing high investment.
After we left, we had to return for one last item. I called (Girl A) over, saying I had a question. She joked, "Hope I'm not in trouble?" I played along, "Well, maybe, we'll find out."
As we walked out, I teased her:
Me: "Are you above trouble?"
Her: "Yes."
Me: "What makes you think you're above trouble?"
She just smiled, unable to answer. We were outside now. I introduced myself, made small talk, and then went for the close.
Me: "I might not see you again. Let me have your number, if that's fine with you."
Her: "Okay, but I don't know it by heart. Give me your number, I'll flash you, and you can save it."
Me (teasing): "You said you're above trouble but don't know your number?" I gave her my phone; she called it right there. I saved it, and we said goodnight.
Her compliance, investment, and playfulness felt like high interest (8/10+).
THE FOLLOW-UP & THE PROBLEM (Full TIMELINE WITH ALL CALLS):
SATURDAY (5 days later, 10:00 AM): I called to set up a same-day meet for 7:00 PM. She didn't pick, but called back ~5 minutes later.
Me: "What's up, what's going on?"
Her: "Fine."
Me: "Let's meet today, 7pm."
Her: "Uhm... Let me see how it will be, cuz I'm on my way to school right now."
Me: "Okay."
I said nothing else and the call ended. I expected if she was interested, she'd text me later if she could make it. She never did that evening.
TUESDAY (3 days after the Saturday flake): I called again to set up a meet for Wednesday. She didn't pick and did not call back.
WEDNESDAY: I called one last time that around 7pm. She picked the call in seconds and greeted me "good evening." The call went like this:
Me: "What's up, what's going on?"
Her: "Fine."
Me: "Let's meet tomorrow (Thursday, 7pm."
Her: "Okay, I'll see how it goes.")
Me: "Cool. I'll call you."
Then I ended the call. (I later regretted saying "I'll call you" — should have kept it tighter like "See you 7pm.")
THURSDAY (day of the planned meet; confirmation attempt): It started raining lightly that evening. Around 6:00 PM (I wanted to confirm because of the weather), I called to confirm the 7pm meet. She did not pick. This was the second time she had not called back after missing my call. At this point I decided to next her completely. I even want to delete her contact.
Additional Context — The Roommate (Girl B): During the initial move, I also interacted with her roommate, Girl B. In front of everyone (including Girl A), this happened:
Me: "I'm [My Name]. And you are?"
Girl B: "I'm [Girl B]."
Me: "All the girls I knw named [Girl B's Name] are always troublesome and stubborn."
Her (playfully defensive): "Me, I'm not a troublesome girl and I'm not stubborn!"
It was a clear, positive IOI. Recently when I saw Girl B on the street, she acted shy—avoiding eye contact, looking down, left, right, until we passed each other.
WHERE I’M AT MENTALLY NOW: At this point, with all the terrible failed experiences I've had over the years and my current stage (25 yrs, trying to establish my dream startup)... I want to totally drop girls and focus on my grind.
When I’m rich, have my dream car, and can travel the world — that’s when I’ll spin plates. At that point, I’ll be ruthless in my approaches. I won’t waste time on flakes or weak interest.
MY SPECIFIC QUESTIONS FOR THE FORUM:
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Initial Analysis: Based on the first interaction, was my read of her high interest level correct?
-
The Critical Mistake: Where did I go wrong? Was it calling too late (5 days)? The same-day date request? Or my passive “Okay” response?
-
Damage Control: Is my decision to next her and not contact her again the correct alpha move? Is there any recovering this?
-
The Roommate Switch: Should I consider Girl B, or is that a messy/desperate play that will blow up with both of them? If it’s viable, how should I approach it?
-
Direct Approach: Given my physique and looks, should I be more direct in future approaches? Rollo mentions directness can be effective if you are physically appealing, but I want the forum’s take on this for my specific situation.
- Grind: Should I just forget girls totally for now? Honestly I'm losing interest. Totally.
CLOSING: Guys, I need your solid advice please — especially from men who have been at my stage and conquered. I’m okay with criticism, so be blunt.
ATTEMPT TO ANSWER YOUR OWN QUESTION:
-
I feel I overated her interest levels(Girl A). Maybe she was just being a nice girl
- Following her roommate (Girl B) won't be wrong. I think it will create triangles among the girls.
.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 3d ago Stickied
1) is English genuinely your second language? I'm not trying to be mean, there is enough here to make me think it is and I don't want to assume
2) you don't need to add stuff like "forum post title:: "my question:"
Hell you don't even need to type "attempt to answer my question:" you can just clearly try to answer it and that's good enough (although it's still fine to do)
3) you asked a should i question so you will be flaired as such
Consequences of asking basic should i questions in AskTRP
kawzero 3d ago
My Bad. Just knowing about this. I won't repeat it again.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 3d ago
Right, but are you native English or English is a second language or?
kawzero 3d ago
2nd Language bro.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 3d ago
Good to know I am not going to give you a should i flair
Musicgoon78 3 4d ago
Another Should I post. And directly in the Title!
Ill abswer later when I have time to read this shit. Summarize bro....
Vermillion-Rx Admin 3d ago
English as a second language confirmed
I have grace in these situations, OP is aware of everything addressed
kawzero 3d ago
I'll really appreciate.
mattyanon Admin 4d ago
Right, next. Don't fuck around doing all the work for someone who can't commit to a date.
Text roommate, whatever.
Not sure what "pivot or focus on grind" mean....... what you do is text roommate, and get on with your life EITHER WAY.
Sounds like too much reading, not enough doing.
Awesome!
You're too fat.
Ok, seriously though...... what's your bodyfat %? roughly?
Right...
Right..... can relate.
Ok.
so you need abundance, and that means getting girls.
Ok..... I'm going to scan and summarise the rest and miss some bits out:
Ok, playful, fun.
Don't ask questions. Just don't do it. You're trying to milk it and you're being needy and you're probably trying to get something from her in the conversation or trying to get something from her emotionally, and she can sense this too.
Just tell girls "you look like trouble". Don't ask questions, it sucks. I mean an occasional question is kinda ok..... but asking them negotiating questions like "what makes you think you're above trouble" is just weird and not fun.
A much better plan is "you're fun, we should do X cool thing", and take it from there.
Your plan is: ask number / get number / call / arrange date.
or a girl this feels weird.... "why does he want my number? does he like me? am I committing to sex? what if I don't like him? what if it's awkward? what if he wants to go somewhere I don't like". They seriously overthink this shit.
What you should do:
"You're fun, let's do X sometime". Girl says awesome or no, you work out the details later. Numbers are a means to an end, and she should know what the end goal is (ie go and do X).
Too logical and too weird.
Good work on calling.
Yes and no.
I think you aimed for too much too quickly with no kinda warning and stuff.
"be there at 7" from a guy you met briefly in passing 5 days ago is kinda nuts.
Better to have an idea of what you want to do and a rough idea of time. Ideally she really wants to go on a date with you, in which case it's easy.
But some girls just don't get that they have to take an active part in all this and act/play dumb socially.
But really, it's hard to get enough investment from a girl to last 5 days.
If you've chatted for 10 minutes, you're going to have to call her the next day. More than that and you're "just that guy I talked to". No matter how much she's into you when you chat, she'll have taken 12 steps backwards when you text/call her. They're just dumb like this.
Err....
Why are you calling a girl showing disinterest THREE TIMES ???
Like she's not texting you or being keen or interested, and you just keep calling her? I don't get it.
This means "no".
Right, but should have nexted sooner.
How was this an IOI ?
Ok
Look, being rich doesn't help much with getting girls and can make it harder.
Get a hot physique, lose the bodyfat (probably), get girls now while you're on your grind. Just don't waste too much time doing it.
No
If she's interested you ignore IOIs and just say "you're fun, we should do X cool thing". If she's keen you set it up. If not you don't. The "get a number then get a date" thing just doesn't work or even feel right.
Forget "alpha move", you're a guy trying to get dates and trying not to waste time.
But yeah... next.
If you think roommate is into you, text her.
direct-ish if you're good looking. not "wanna fuck"..... but you can be clear in moving things towards a date.
Agree with Rollo here. And it saves a lot of time.
Nope.
Girls aren't ever going to communicate clearly. You need abundance. You need to always be smoothly escalating.
It won't. You're just a guy who invited girl A out and now you are potentially dating girl B. It's not a big deal.
Look.... you're flirting (badly, but ok) and getting numbers, and asking girls out....... so you're 90% of the way there.
Here's some tweaks:
kawzero 3d ago
Thanks a lot bro. I appreciate taking your time to advise me. Have noted everything.
First-light 2 3d ago
These girls are not coming over very interested. A is a clear next. She is not interested, she is just too polite to know how to just say it. Its up to you if you want to approach B.
If A has rejected you, you are not pre approved for B and you are calling her up because A turned you down. Reverse the roles. Your mate turned down this ugly girl, so she asked you out next. Doesn't feel like you are very special does it? Now if B is for some reason just feeling left out of attention from being in A's shadow, then it might be different but this is the less likely possibility.
There are a lot more girls in the world and you you have some grinding to do.
kawzero 3d ago
Thanks for the feedback bro.
I had a hunch for low interest abt A, after the first flake. Because, she gave a non committal answer. @mattyanon suggested I should hv next her at this point. (Will definitely do that in future cases)
I regret pushing for commitment after her first flake. But, overall I'm happy I didn't double call/pursue her again after 2nd flake. Old me would hv decided to Whatsapp her and keeping calling until I become a nuisance.
At least I left her with dignity unlike previous years of Simping behavior. Although I deeply regret not dropping her, after first flake.
As for her roommate (B), I've cancelled the idea to approach. like you said... "There are more girls in the world"
Overall, I'm happy for the little changes in my behavior towards girls. Thanks to Rollo and The RP brotherhood, I appreciate.
I'm not perfect yet, but, I've noticed improvements.
.
First-light 2 3d ago
Well done.
Mattyano's advice is good. But I would clarify that I don't think you actually did anything wrong trying again after the first flake, although the chances were small and got very small when she replied so non committally. You didn't simp out or become a pest. I think people can be too hard line on things like this and I would stress this to a newcomer to women, don't be too quick to next. The problem is with a stranger, you never really know what is going on in their life. If girls were entirely predictable and if they were never unexpectedly overwhelmed by the pressures of life, men would be right to have a one flake and you are out rule. But you can't actually tell what is happening at her end. You can't tell if actually she is run off her feet working extra shifts, if she has to take the car in to the garage because its making a funny noise or if she is not that interested. You can't tell if she is just playing it cool or not interested.
Men are generally keener on arranging logistics than women anyway. This is because: Men are good at organising stuff Women almost always have a surplus mentality where they can wait for men to come to them Women expect men to take the lead because that is how they get turned on by a guy wanting them and making a play for them and they also want guys to show they are interested enough not just easy come easy go players
All this leads men to be left arranging logistics blind.
Now if your friends without warning hit you up to go out for a meal (as in fact mine did just this week), you might be slow to get back if they asked when you were hard at work. You might even to to sleep having forgotten to reply (as I did). You might have something to do that night that you can probably shift a bit (as I did) and so you make a non committal sort of reply and hope you can shift the appointment. Now that is what happened with my own male friends not some female stranger wanting a date for which I have to dress up smart and be good company. They even offered to go to the only restaurant in my village to make it easy for me and I was still slow to agree. In the end I said I will come when I can and leave when I need to. Had I been a woman asked for a date I would have probably flaked but actually I still might want to go.
Unless you are sure she is flaking from lack of interest, it can be worth following a girl up in a non simpy way. Just checking if she would like to re-arrange. I would say that if she flaked once, odds are she will flake again but maybe 25 -33% she won't flake second time, particularly if she didn't just sound bored as hell and reply grudgingly when she flaked first go but was sorry. Its worth the follow up sometimes, even if you don't offer the second date in the end, just to check it was not a flake from lack of interest. Usually there will be an apology of she is actually interested.
All you have to lose is some pride if you check up whether she would like to re-arrange. Sometimes it is clear that there is no interest and there is no need to do this but not always. All I am saying is that a one strike and you are out rule is an ideal world scenario that can be wasteful if applied in the real world. Don't simp, chase and beg but you can check up. I say this as the father of many daughters. Women are not that organised or innerly confident and they like men to arrange things for them. They also like to know men are interested enough to follow them up.
I think as matty says it was too big a jump for most guys to take most girls from a quick chat to "lets go out tonight." Particularly if the girl is hot and happy inside (the kind of girl you want and everyone else wants). Guys are all over her. She has a surplus mentality and women are also cautious by nature. She knows you want to stick your dick in her but you have given her no reason to think she wants to investigate the possibility of that, especially considering that all the other guys want to as well. You have to get a girl to warm to you before you ask her out. You got past the creep filter. She gave you her number. You were in the "people she will associate with" category. You needed to take her to the interested level before asking her out. Sometimes the chemistry is clear when you first meet and you are both feeling it and you can just ask but most of the time women want you to warm them up, its part of the courtship ritual and they enjoy the attention. get a rapport going, then you can offer to meet her. Being direct form the get go only works if you are very high value, she is very slutty, low value or unhappy inside and wants male affirmation.
A lot of PUA stuff is written by guys who are hot and polished. They know women and how to talk to them. They are also hitting up girls in quantity and in places where sluts hang out who are used to going with men easily. This is a strategy that works for them. For a novice its a poor strategy. Most girls are not actually like this and you don't actually want a slut to start out with, you want a girl you can learn from about relating to healthy women. A girl has to either be low value or have a pretty low bar to fall for cheap confident PUA stuff and just agree to a date on first meeting. It might flatter her but unless she is feeling low value and wants affirmation she knows she is worth more.
As I said I have a number of daughters. The hot ones would never agree to a date like this unless you were a world class athlete or a billionaire. You might get one of the less hot ones if she felt low. The attractive ones just act like they don't notice men. Everyone looks at them when they come in a room, everyone wants their number, they won't actually go out with a guy who they don't know unless he is way above standard. They don't have to do this to enjoy male attention, so why would they? (I have not seen it happen once yet with the attractive ones). Its the only way for them to act around men and stay sane.
So don't be too quick to move in or move out with women. Take a bit of time, learn to calibrate yourself to read them. You are doing OK.
kawzero 1d ago
Wow, much Wisdom from this reply. Very informative. You're very experienced.
I appreciate bro. I will save this!
I'm curious on few points:
A. WARMING THEM UP: In my case, I got her number Monday then, called 5 days later(Saturday Morning) for same day meet at 7pm.
Was this fine enough? Or should I hv texted with her a bit b4 a date call?
B. BEING DIRECT:
Rollo also said/says same thing like you did. A little directness is fine for high value guys. He even said if you're high value(looks, status, resource) combined, you might handicap yourself if you're too indirect from start. However,
My question is: How can one be direct when meeting her? Should it be towards taking her somewhere?/meeting again? E.g "You seem fun, let's do X sometime" like @mattyanon suggested. And should it also be from your Words?
Honestly, I think some of my issues fall here. Playing too cold/indirect on the get go?
I don't hv high status, but, trust me I get IOIs from girls given my looks. I'm not at model tier level but I notice them(girls) being more open/welcoming to me. Cuteness helps a bit. Should this be a reason to also be a little direct?
I've really fumbled many girls who were initially into me from start. I sometimes get Anxiety and not approach OR play too indecisive, Text with them non stop without arranging a meet.
I'll appreciate your advice.
.
First-light 2 1d ago
A lot of the problems you are experiencing come form a lack of calibration with women. In an ideal world we would only push on open gates but until we learn what a gate that will open looks like, we can bump ourselves into a lot of closed ones. Women are not too easy to read and practise makes it a lot clearer.
The annoying answer to "Should I be direct?" is "Sometimes" What does the setting tell you? People behave in situationally appropriate ways.
I have no problem with what Matty has written below but I am keen to stress that it is not correct to take it at face value that "either a woman wants to fuck you or not and she already knows this" What I suspect he means is that women know where their bar of "fuckable" lies. They will assess very quickly whether or not a man meets this bar.
They rarely revise this basic assessment unless they learn some surprise revelation about you "Oh that scruffy looking guy who was mowing the lawn outside the big house is a successful man who owns the house and he is single" would be an example. But even if you meet the bar, 99% of the time she has zero intention of letting you fuck her. You may well be able to get her to consider you for this if you play your cards right in the right circumstances but its absurd to think women have decided to fuck you or not at first meeting. Furthermore most of the time although she has made an assessment of fuckability (or rather of your value based on a basket of qualities like looks, health, wealth, social standing and so on) she has not done it consciously. Imagine if women did. Their little heads would be full up with calculations over sex constantly and they would never get anything done for being railed by chads they met at the bus stop. Live with women and you will soon see they don't think consciously of sex a great deal till they do and they can't think of much else then.
Situation is a large part of it. Go to a bar where singles down to fuck often meet. Strike up a conversation with a girl, let her warm to your energy, then ask her out. You can bet then that she has decided if you are worth considering as fuckable. However, a girl moving house is primarily moving house and wants to fit in with her new neighbours. She is not thinking "Who is fuckable here?" so much as "where shall I put the computer?" If she then strikes up a conversation with a fuckable guy, she won't be immediately thinking "lets flirt". She might sometimes if she really likes him but most of the time she is meeting someone new. In this case you will need to warm her up and maybe change the setting to a more attraction appropriate one to get a genuine positive answer..
The golden rule is; "Get her to warm to you before you warm her up to thinking of mating or mate selection." You may be looking for pussy. She is probably looking for the teaspoons. Moving in is stressful. Ask someone under stress for something not too inconvenient and they will usually always give it you -simply because they don't want the further stress of refusing it. I am a business owner. When I used to bother to answer my phone to unknown callers, I would always be called at 4.00 on Fridays by salesmen, because they know business men are usually tired by then and might agree to a call back next week or even agree to buy something small. Its easier than saying no. We are not as smart as we like to think we are. She gave you her number but she wasn't thinking "Shall I let this guy shoot his load up me?" He wasn't a creep, so she gave the number.
A good illustration from life is my current lady who is attractive. I won't praise her up too far as I am biased but she is well above average and everyone says our daughter should be a model. When I first met her told me fairly early on "I don't want to start anything" Many years, (Almost a decade before we lived under the same roof and I had another woman most of this time), and two children later, its safe to say she didn't follow through on that. But she did mean it at the time. She had decided that she had no intention of me fucking her and she didn't want to be asked out. She said it totally unexpectedly to just make sure of this.
I didn't change this by simping out and "investing" in her. In fact she invested time and money in me, helping me out of a bit of a fix but that investment of time from me and time and some small resources from her was enough to make her revise that initial opinion of "I don't want to be asked out". She had to invite me to stay twice at her house in her conservative country (causing a lot of chatter form neighbours) before I took the hint that maybe she did want to change her mind on that. It wasn't by the way a play to look uninterested, she really did mean it. She still occasionally brings up regret that she changed her mind when we quarrel.
I don't doubt that I met her bar of fuckable from "hello" but at the time we chanced to meet, she had no thought of that. (I was dealing with serious problems). When she saw I liked her (I never flirted with her, I just sat back in a chair opposite her and smiled with genuine happiness at her), she wanted to nip that in the bud and said "I don't want to start anything". Attractive women have to learn to put men off that meet the bar or they get themselves into all sorts of mental miseries with an abundance of men to disappoint. Most women are not shameless hussies who want to eat for free and get given free lifts from men they fully intend to disappoint. A little time is an investment that may pay off but be calibrated. It won't change unfuckable into fuckable unless she feels utterly desperate and then she will soon be filled with self loathing and buyer's remorse.
A lot of RP theory was written by western guys about the western dating scene -where experienced sluts try out guys who look high value enough to see if they like the tingles they guys give. Do not take this as gospel for real life or for any non western situation. Women are women everywhere but they do moderate their behaviour according to circumstance.
kawzero 23h ago
Very deep. Thanks for this bro. I've learnt a lot.
mattyanon Admin 1d ago
@First-light makes some great comments, but just a couple of things to be wary of:
He is identifying women in a very positive light because he is viewing them through the lens of his experience with his daughters. When you're related to someone it's natural to view them (and by projection their gender) in the best possible light. There is a lot of positive spin here that men without daughters are less likely to do. I'm not going to call out examples because I think it's a solid post, but don't forget that the bias is there.
Don't fall into the trap of "women have abundance therefore will choose men who invest in them". Investing more than she does is a trap, and fear of loss of that investment is a poor negotiating position that women will leverage repeatedly until a man is trapped in a one sided providership contract, ie marriage.
kawzero 1d ago
Hmm... This is deep. Thanks bro. We can't blame him. And I understand his perspective.
However, your comments are always rooted. I've seen many of your comments on other forum posts.
Are you a Very-close disciple of Rollo? You have a strong grasp of RP doctrine.
I'm happy I decided to swallow the RP.
I'll keep learning. Thanks again.
.
mattyanon Admin 23h ago
Nope... independent here, I just study and try to understand.
[deleted] 3d ago
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