Been rejected by more than a hundred women. Kissless virgin at age 22.
In horrific accident when I was younger, my face is badly scarred and I lost an eye. Girls are scared of me, people in public generally avoid me, I look scary.
Been studying red pill for the last year and a half, still no success with women. My roommate introduced me to this forum and I've been reading it a lot.
Started going to the gym, in great shape and confidence improved a lot. Decided that if I look like a scary monster to just lean into it. I am taller and in better shape than most men now. I decided to grow a long blond beard and start thinking of myself more like a strong and badass pirate or viking rather than a disfigured loser nobody would ever want.
But I continued to be rejected by women HB4, HB5, HB6. Never aimed higher than that. Long spells of not bothering to try at all, broken up by periods of trying and failing. Zero success. My life has been lonely.
So now HB8 in my social circle is really nice to me. I never thought I would have a chance, having failed with less attractive women. She is the super hot cousin of my friend's fat girlfriend and we found out our places of work are right next to each other so we started hanging out on work breaks sometimes.
She is really nice to me, seeks out my company, asks about me if she hasn't seen me for a few days. She has asked about my accident and my scars which is something nobody asks me like it's some kind of taboo, they are just afraid of me and would never dare ask but she is so casual and upfront. I can wear my eye patch or my prosthetic but both are uncomfortable and irritating and when I spoke of that she said that she doesn't see a need to, that she doesn't care, that she is not afraid of me.
I tried kino and she seems receptive. In fact she is the only person who has ever touched me for a long, long time. She hugs me when we first see one another, and before we part. A lot of women do this to people just to be friendly but I haven't seen her do it to any other men in our social circle. She has said to other women, right in front of me, that she likes men with my hair color.
I have been to her place as a group with our friends and I have seen that she reads romance novels about evil villains that kill people and spread bloodshed but are romantic, protective, and kind of beta to the female protagonist. I don't know why such a hot girl would show attraction to someone like me unless she thinks I could play into this role that might be her sexual fixation or something.
She says she wants to have children and a family but is too paranoid to be in a relationship, self-sabotaging them due to distrust and fear of cheating. When she was 12 she caught her father with his mistress and went through a traumatic divorce of her parents. She has not been cheated on but broke up with her past boyfriends because she was sick of worrying that they might cheat and admits she's crazy, seeing signs of infidelity even when men are probably innocent. She says there have been married men with children who have done terrible things to try to get a chance with her and she figures any man she might be with would do the same if someone more attractive came around so she stays single. So maybe she likes me because she thinks someone grotesque like me couldn't cheat on her. Or that because I'm big and strong and scary that I can protect her and fulfill a role that her father couldn't. She has to read those kinds of violent romance books for a reason right.
I'm moving into my new house this weekend and she offered to come over and help me. It will be the first time we will be alone together and she initiated it. She is showing by her body language that she is into me. I put my arm around her in public and she was not embarassed or repulsed. I am going to go for it even though it might screw up the dynamics of our social group if she rejects me. Do you think she is showing signs that she is interested?
Attempt to answer your own question: I think so. But this is the first time a woman has ever shown anything close to interest in me. It's hard to tell if I am looking too much into it or not, but I am going to go for it anyways.
joyboy 1d ago
Congrats and fuck you. Social circle really is everything
robert86 2d ago
Why all my posts removed?
robert86 2d ago
Why have all my posts been removed? I did not break any rules. Can an admin look into it please thanks.
mattyanon Admin 6d ago
Ok. Tricky one. Not in your position but I'll do my best.
Well done for trying!
Well, I was too. Anyway.... please stop defining yourself in this way. Life's a journey, and it doesn't matter where you're at. But self definitions are self limiting.... so don't indulge in that shit. You're on your journey, just like we all are.
Ok, great.
Now the issue.... as you know..... is that women will be nice when they want something. But they'll also be nice when they think you're safe to be nice to because you won't hit on them. Or when she's attracted. And you never know the difference.
Cool
This is a great plan. Escalate to find out.
Honestly you might be about right with this. Sounds like she has a dark side.
That's traumatic and I think it's fucked her up a bit.
Well, this isn't the whole story because women will often stay with men who are cheating....... so "fear of cheating" isn't the real reason she's breaking up with these guys. She might think it's the real reason, but there is a good chance she doesn't know what the real reason is.
So you have to understand that this girl is at least somewhat broken, which means that even if things were otherwise perfect and easy that she would still be a bit of a traumatic experience to date.
Maybe
Maybe.
There is another possibility, which is that she isn't too bothered by your downsides but is attracted to your upsides.
Well definitely she has a dark side that she's trying to either exorcise or indulge. But she is somewhat broken at least.
Touch/flirt with her...... have a couple of bottles of wine to celebrate with afterwards, have her uber lined up if she's driving (ideally she isn't) - make sure there's about 20 minutes work to do rather than all day.
And talk to her about her choice of reading material..... ask about her favourite novel and favourite scene... ask how they make her FEEL..... talk around the subject..... "so, do you like it when the main character does X........ what about when the female has X done to her?......" etc. etc. Really try your best to get her to elicit these feelings while you are genuinely interested. She'll almost certainly love this.
Maybe yes maybe no.
But with a girl like this..... even a "yes definitely interested" is a tightrope. She's going to be trouble any which way. I'm not saying don't go for it, I'm saying you should expect trouble - and you are going to really struggle not to over invest if things progress with her.
Never do the whole "I would never cheat on you" thing, because in a weird way that disqualifies you as a man and is just qualifying yourself as a loser/beta. Chances are she's attracted to men who could potentially cheat (even though she says the opposite!). Women often lose interest in men at the exact point they offer commitment because at this point he loses his options / danger. It's why you should never commit too much too early, and why you shouldn't be exclusive too soon. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that "her father cheated therefore I'll cut off my balls and offer myself as her loyal eunach".
Good luck!
robert86 6d ago
Hey thanks for responding. Some of my friends think I shouldn't take the chance. I don't know why they are so unsupportive. I mean even if it blows up I have to try. I don't want to be alone forever.
I don't care if she is broken. I am broken. I already did tell her that I would never cheat on someone. I worded it like: "I have done many bad things in my life but breaking my word/betraying someone who was loyal to me is the one thing I would never do."
And I did already talk/tease her about her choice of reading material. It is some really extreme shit - incredibly violent - like female protagonist gets hurt and the evil villain who loves her tortures and kills somebody over it. Or the villain is an evil sorcerer or warlord that kills thousands of people and destroys entire countries in the pursuit of power and is totally heartless dominant to everyone in the world except for female protagonist towards whom he is sentimental and beta. They say shit like "I would tear out the hearts of everyone here before I would ever let harm come to a hair on your head." "If they try to touch you I will feed them all to the crows before breakfast." Or they come home from murdering people to scoop the female protagonist up like a baby and croon romantic love songs to her. HB8 says straight up she thinks its romantic for men to behave this way. So I wonder - does she actually like it that people seem afraid of me, does it make her feel powerful or something, unlike most other girls who would be embarassed to be seen with me, who would think I could never look good in pictures, they would be embarassed to bring me around their friends and family, and all the other thoughts that have tortured me to inaction for years.
How do I calibrate alpha/beta when interacting with a woman like this? I know in real life most women don't like a 100% badboy alpha. I have the bad boy look but I am beta at heart - I am not interested in racking up n count and want to experience reciprocal love with somone. How do I balance alpha/beta in how I act? Especially with how sensitive she is about sexual fidelity and the strange extremes of alpha and beta in the romance books she reads. It will be hard for me not to overinvest. Because of my looks I feel like it's a one in a million chance for a girl this attractive to ever give me attention like this. I have considered plastic surgery but another guy in my group therapy who spent $80,000 on reconstructive surgery now looks uncanny - you can't really tell if he has some weird genetic problem - he still doesn't look normal. At least with me it looks obvious that I have had an accident, that I wasn't born like this, and the unharmed part of my face still looks normal.
The most I have escalated so far has been to run my hands up and down her waist, run my hands through her hair, press my lips against her neck but not actually kiss - she leaned in towards me to all these things - should I try to kiss her the next time we hang out on break at work or should I wait until she comes over this weekend? If I wait too long to make a move she is going to friendzone me isn't she.
mattyanon Admin 5d ago
You have it right. You have to do something if you don't want to be alone forever.
Are the advocating for a passive "accept getting nothing" for the rest of your life?
Well.... this is the problem... a nightmare girlfriend when she's your only option isn't a recipe for a happy life.
um... ok...
Yeah, ok. Fair enough..... but this loyalty will be tested and it don't be respected.
See here's the issue.
She's fascinated by the dark side...... and here you are telling her you are loyal and would never cheat. I don't think that's gonna make her pussy wet.
I don't know.
Yeah, there's a balance...... but her background is fucked up and her reading material is fucked up, so I don't think normal rules apply.
That being said, she's still female.
They don't like a full on beta either, especially one who commits too early too soon in exchange for too little.
Yeah.
Right. The problem is that this can look like weakness to a lot of women.
Ultimately you have to go after what YOU want.
Yep.
She's fascinated by the dark side, and says she is terrified of male infidelity...... although I don't really believe that's what's going on. She might be a commitmentphobe..... and tells herself she dumps them because she's scared of them cheating, but it's not the real reason.
right
Nah...... you can get good looking girls if you are confident, exceptional other areas, can connect with them emotionally, pass shit tests, etc.
Yeah. Tricky call, no idea in your case.
Yep.
But there is a halfway house where you have partial reconstruction ..... doesn't have to be all or nothing.
That's actually quite a lot!
wait.
Work is a terrible place to escalate.
yes.
This weekend, after you're moved in is a good time..... but take it slow.... the waist and hair thing is good... can proceed to cuddling.... don't make a big deal of kissing, it isn't a commitment and it isn't a big deal..... sounds like the escalation is going well though, do more of that.
robert86 4d ago
Well she says things like even rape is not as bad as cheating. Her reasoning is that if a man rapes a woman it's because he wanted her so much that he couldn't control himself and forced himself on her. Which is bad but not as bad as being in a team with someone where you're supposed to be loyal to each other and have each other's back no matter what but one person goes outside of that team and betrays the other for the sake of a temporary moment of pleasure and ego stroking attention. She even claims you can kill somebody by cheating on them because you can pass on HPV which can give women cancer. So she is really extreme with cheating being the worst thing you can ever possibly do to someone.
So today one of my friends embarassed me in front of our entire social group, including her, by saying that I liked her romantically and was going to try to make a move on her this weekend. He told her that I'm a virgin. She told him that he is a snake for trying to embarass his friend and he said that he was only looking out for her by trying to warn her. She said a single man being attracted to a single female isn't something needing a warning because in these situations a grown woman might decide she likes the man as well or she might decide she doesn't and simply say 'no thank you' and they move on like mature people. She left and the other girl left with her both disapproving of how he behaved.
She texted me later saying "Don't worry about what ____ said it doesn't change anything between us. See what I said before about how people act"
So I think she will still come over this weekend and I think it would show low value to ask her if she's still coming after that. I should just assume that she is. I think with how she responded to my "friend" shows that she doesn't care that I'm a virgin and knows now but isn't bothered by the idea that I'm going to make a move on her when she comes over? But I am inexperienced with women and I find it hard to read these things accurately. Also currently flooded with anger that someone I considered a friend for many years would use what I confided in him as a weapon to try to embarass me in front of a girl.
mattyanon Admin 4d ago
That's a crazy extreme viewpoint.
What a fucking dick. That's so unfair.
This is an ex-friend.
Urgh.
He's "warning" her because he wants to fuck her himself.
In future don't confide this stuff in anyone that you can't 100% trust, which is clearly not this guy.
Awesome
Awesome!
She has already said nothing changed, so there is nothing to ask her about. Just assume she's still coming.
She'll probably mention the incident, and you can laugh about it.
Never, ever deny being attracted to her under and circumstances. If she asked, flatly tell her you find her very attractive, then carry on talking like it's no big deal.
yes
yes
Yeah, that's fucking disgusting.
But when you talk to her, laugh it off like it's all no big deal. You don't want to show much emotion over it, which looks weak.
So.... put aside your feelings towards that dick of an ex-friend.... laugh it off with her like it's no big deal, and carry on as before.
This sounds like she's super comfortable with you..... so whatever happens, I think it'll be fine.
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robert86 2d ago
I did it lads!
when she came over she looked amazingly sexy
she was helping me unpack and set up my kitchen and living room, she being smiley and chatty
at first I was an idiot staring at her almost drooling
had a drink to settle my nerves then everything was easy
she walked by me and I pulled her onto my lap, she didn't resist
started kissing her neck running my hands over her body, she moans and enjoys herself, doesn't resist
I kiss her on the mouth, we make out
I start trying to go under her clothes, she resists - she laughs and says "I really like you but this is crazy, this is moving way too fast"
she gets up, my blood's still running hot, I start unpacking stuff again and talking about mundane stuff to try to cool myself down, was likely a bit awkward but tried to make it not be
later after we finished everything we both had a drink
I tour her my new house, she compliments everything
I make sure my bedroom is the last room to show her
in my bedroom I sit on my bed and invite her to have another drink with me
we are both pretty tipsy after this and she starts opening up to me
she says that when we first met she loved the way my body looks and my body type is not common (I frequent the gym but I eat huge amounts of food as much as I can - I only bulk and I never cut and I go for a huge "bear mode" look with a lot of muscle AND fat basically just trying to be as big as possible)
she said that every other guy is either out of shape or has a gym bro look she dislikes (guessing she meant the muscular lean look here)
I have never been complimented like this before, I just say thanks and take off my shirt she is ogling me hard - I have never been ogled
her: "can I be real?"
me: sure.
her: "I don't mean to offend you. I hope I don't offend you. Tell me if I say something that offends you, and if I do, forgive me because I don't mean it. I just want to talk real about something."
me: sure.
she said that at first she liked going around with me experiencing the frightened way that people look at me because it made her feel cool. but then she thought that if people looked at her that way all the time, everywhere she went, every day, for years, that she would feel mortified and lonely. she said she feels like she hates all these people if they make me feel mortified and lonely. she said she hopes that it doesn't get to me, and that it makes her want to be close to me on an emotional level. of course she has read the situation accurately and living like this has made me lonely and ashamed of myself. for many years. just to be clear here, I do not have some kind of cool scar. around two-thirds of my face is covered with twisted knarled skin and I have lost an eye.
so yes she has read the situation accurately. and what she has said has pulled my heartstrings (we are both drunk at this point). but I laugh it off and try to save face.
I say - that's really nice of you. You're a very nice girl to say all that. But they're right. They should be afraid of me. (I am trying to playfully seem more dangerous since I already know from what she reads that she likes dangerous men.)
her: I am not afraid of you.
me: (playfully) foolish.
her: I am brave.
me: its the ones who brag about being brave that end up screaming the loudest in the end (didn't know if this would feel creepy to her or sinister/dangerous/cool but I went for it)
she laughs and practically jumps into my arms
Her: "Would you ever hurt me?"
in response I playfully pinch her, she says ouch and laughs
she tries again to seek comfort, with a slightly different question, "Would you ever lie to me?"
I think I was pretty smooth in what I came up with next with her laughing and loving every second of it.
Me: (long pause) I have been lying to you this whole time.
Her: What do you mean?
Me: (long pause again) I am not who I have been pretending to be. I'd better come clean. But I don't think you'll believe me.
Her: (laughing) What are you talking about?
Me: I am not from this era.
More incredulous laughing from her.
Me: I am a king from 12,000 BC. I once ruled vast lands and had great armies, but my enemies captured me. They could not kill me, so they used a machine to send me into the future.
I go on with this story for a while, trying to elicit emotions in her, knowing she loves ridiculous romance novels, she is laughing in glee the entire time and snuggling up closer and closer to me, I am shirtless.
Me: You know all those stone arrowheads that archaeologists find? Those are remnants of the weapons of my army.
You know all those cave paintings? I made those. I was not only a king and general, I was known as a fine artist back then.
You know those venus of willendorf statues? I made those, they're sculptures of my girlfriends.
Her: They're fat.
Me: How dare you disrespect them. They're dead now. I mourn them. Besides we wanted women to be fat in 12,000BC. It helped them keep warm in the ice age and not starve to death in famines. If I was still in 12,000BC I would not be caught dead wasting my time with a woman like you.
Her: laughing
Me: I open up my heart to confide in you and you laugh at me in my own home. The women in 12,000BC used to be much more respectful.
She goes back to the same question - But will you? Will you ever hurt me?
Me - No, I won't hurt you.
I kiss her.
I escalate slowly.
clothes off. lots of foreplay then had sex twice.
she stayed overnight. sex again in the morning.
never thought I would ever wake up to the sight of a beautiful naked woman in my bed who smiles at me and says "I'm happy."
she pressed for exclusivity (in a respectful way, not a demand/ultimatum) and I do want to have a relationship with her but I shot it down both times.
the first time - "you are a great girl and I like you a lot, but I don't want to ruin the good friendship we have" (flipping the script to friendzone her)
the second time I told her it would be a terrible idea for us to have a relationship as she admitted her trust issues and paranoia about mens possible infidelity ruined her previous relationships so why would I want to be in a relationship like that? We wouldn't be happy so what's the point?
it ended with "let's think about it and see where it goes."
I want to be in a relationship with her. I only do this because I know that if she feels she has to wait for it and earn it that the relationship itself will be better. She is good to me and she makes me happy and I want to make her happy. It is not me being manipulative. It is just part of the natural courtship behaviour of humans. No different from women holding out on sex even though they want to bang the guy.
Not sure how long I should wait to enter a relationship with her. Or what the least unattractive way for a man to give his commitment is.
oh she did mention the incident where my "friend" outed me as a virgin and said he was trying to "warn" her about me making a move on her. but it was already after we had sex that she mentioned it. it was like this:
her: I only let you go with no condom because of what ____ said about you being a virgin . me: really? I will have to call and thank him later (neither confirming nor denying the truth that I was a virgin)
her: yes. of course. having sex with a lot of people is gross.
me: you think so?
her: of course. i don't want to catch herpes.
me: i don't think anyone wants to catch herpes.
her: they don't care. people are gross. they will fuck anything.
She didn't ask directly if it's true that I was a virgin or not. I don't know how to answer if she does.
The biggest thing I learned from this is to go right for the women you're most attracted to. I was aiming for less attractive women and over a hundred of them rejected me, most of them rejecting me harshly.
I thought that hotter girls were so far out of my league that I didn't even dare to try.
Now I have been accepted by a girl way hotter than the ones who rejected me. And she is much nicer than less attractive women.
There's no point at all in going for less attractive women unless they have something else you really like about them to make up for it.
Also the importance of social circle game. I don't know if I would have been able to get this girl if she wasn't in my social circle already. I am good friends with the guy who is in an LTR with her cousin and that really gave me an in to get to know her. So investing in non-sexual relationships that have nothing at all to do with girls helps tremendously.
qzone 1d ago
Reading this made my day. Good for you, dude.
robert86 1d ago
Thanks. Two years ago I was headed for the incel mentality.
mattyanon Admin 2d ago
Wow, that's really great. Awesome way you get around the "would you lie to me" thing with the hilarious back story. That's just perfect: not falling into the beta trap while being fun and upbeat.
Assuming you didn't use a condom, are you absolutely certain that she's on the pill? Girls are often dumb as fuck on this stuff, and she's a bit crazy already (you know this).
As regards the virgin stuff.... if she ever asks, you're not a virgin, so you can just say "not anymore". If she probes hard about being a virgin before her, just say "yep", like it's not a big deal which it isn't. If you really wanna have fun, just say "you gotta start somewhere" (which has a subtle implication that there will be more as well as her).
robert86 1d ago
thanks and since I want to be in a relationship with her how long should I string her along and deny a relationship? and what's the least unattractive way for a man to give his commitment? I am dead firm that when she is my girlfriend I will break up with her the minute she stops being nice to me no matter how hot she is. Should I say that or just wait for it to happen and then do it?
mattyanon Admin 1d ago
All you gotta do is see her once a week and not worry about it. If you guys wanna have "the talk" and agree exclusivity, give it a month. Before that just be non committal, and don't agree to the next date during the date! "I like you, you like me, let's just enjoy this and see how it goes".
reluctantly ;)
Zero point in saying this - it just makes you look weak. I mean, you'd only say this if you're scared of it, so it just doesn't look good.
Tests are gradual. Not being nice to you starts small. Reducing sex starts small. The trick is to meet her "moving away" with your own moving away. Don't do what most men do which is to reward bad behaviour with an emotional reaction or more commitment.
Instead if she does anything you don't like, your response is less commitment, being less interested in her, getting bored, not arranging another date, or just walking away without saying anything.
This dynamic (along with keeping attractive and keeping your options open) is crucial to maintaining a good relationship, and 99.9% of men don't get it.
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First-light 2 6d ago
Kissless virgin at 22. Oh well you have a few more years to go before you get to the age I first kissed. Lets hope you end the drought soon. I can't see why you won't.
Its hard to be sure when you don't have much calibration. After 100 rejections (and well done for trying because at your age I had zero rejections from zero attempts) you are not calibrated for what female interest looks like.
What is clear is that you are at least in her friend zone.
It is also true that women rarely waste a lot of their personal time on men they do not actually want in their lives in some capacity. They are just too selfish.
Against this is that you don't want to blow things by diving in there, misreading things and losing a female who can at least put you in contact with a circle of friends as pre approved. And she seems to have some issues with male attraction. So go carefully. You are doing just the right thing asking are these IOIs.
You will be able to find out if you go gradually. Allow plausible deniability in how you approach her. For example, do not try to kiss her without being 99% sure she wants it. Don't ask her out until she is practically asking you to do so. But do keep showing her the male IOIs. Positive body language, assertive friendly conversation, touching that has plausible deniability, compliments where earned, little bits of mate guarding like holding doors, carrying boxes. Gently show her that you are attracted to her. If she is not interested she can then gently show you and all is kept safe in the friendship which may be valuable to you later in setting you up with girls. But if she is into you it will come out and gradually things will heat up till you two just have to do something about it..
Your instincts are good to go steady and check the IOIs. This is not the time to come in all newby PUA and blow a good thing with clumsiness. You will get calibrated.
robert86 5d ago
Thanks for the advice. Being a man who is disfigured and looks evil, would it be impossible to ever attract women that don't have a dark side?
First-light 2 5d ago
Of course. Not knowing about your disfigurement its hard to say how much it will affect your SMV. Sometimes people worry too much about small imperfections in themselves -scars on a man are not always a problem if they are obviously scars not a genetic issue, other times it lowers your SMV to a degree and so you are simply trading at a lower value. Messed up women can trade at lower values sometimes but not usually. Often having a dark side does not stop them trading at full value. Men are surprisingly unfussy when it comes to crazy hot women. If she likes you she likes you and others will too.
One things is true that no matter how messed up we are we know what attractive is. Its hard wired in and females are not just attracted to looks.
robert86 4d ago
It's not small imperfections. 60% of my face is covered with twisted knarled skin, I only have one eye, I scare people and I look evil. I've been rejected by more than a hundred women. If this girl is attracted to dark evil things and she is also attracted to me those things are correlated.
Musicgoon78 3 6d ago
The other guys got most of this. I'll be brief. The only way to truly know is to escalate and find out.
You're not too old and it's not getting close to being too late for you to be a virgin. I lost my virginity at 23. I had a kiss at 17. So that was a 6 year stint of blue balls. You don't reach peak smv until you're 30's or even 40's.
My big advice to you is to stop being so negative and fatalistic. Don't take yourself seriously and not only will your dating life get better, you're entire existence will as well.
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robert86 5d ago
Thanks a lot.
Mountainman 5d ago
Sounds like she’s super interested if she’s offering to help you move. Congratz on the house btw
robert86 5d ago
Thanks a lot.
qzone 5d ago
First of all, I agree completely with mattyanon and the others said. Second, how you frame and your attitude toward your disability will totally frame how others react to it. Third, fuck your friends bro, they’re probably blue pilled sour grapes betas to some extent. life is short, go for it, don’t wait around, soon as the moment strikes whether helping you move or whatever (if no moment comes, create one), escalate. We are playing to win, we are not playing to not lose. And finally, I genuinely and sincerely hope things go well for you brother, you got this.
robert86 5d ago
Thanks, really appreciate it.
[deleted] 6d ago
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