Went through a breakup recently and have been thinking a lot about it to first and foremost, own my shit, but also recognize deal breakers that cannot be fixed through frame. There was a lot of stuff I could have done better and my frame wasn't perfect, but that isn't the point so I won't go into all that. For brevity, could the following issue have been fixed through stronger frame? Or was it a red flag and I chose right jamming?
Her (25) parents seemed to always try to interject in our finances. I (27) had set the boundary a couple times already. They are definitely helicopter parents and she would go to them for everything instead of me. The thing that ultimately lead to breakup was that I went on a trip with some friends and paid maybe $50-$100 toward a friend's way since he through not his fault has very low funds (I help him out like this maybe once a year if that). When I got back, she tried to tell me I couldn't be generous toward him anymore. I couldn't have that conversation with a friend I have had since I was a child, so I put my foot down, squashed that, she buckled and she dropped it. She then went to the parents for backup, parents backed her up, they put it to an ultimatum to me as in comply or get out, and I peaced out. Maybe I could have tried to talk to them, called their bluff, or told her our finances are our business and not theirs. But at the time I made a value judgement of their family views on it as irreconcilable; money isn't more important than people and I am doing good financially. Felt also that her parents would always try to be invasive/she would run to them. Maybe my bigger question is, can the parents and also a girl not getting off the tit be a deal breaker? What would you guys have done? Thanks in advance.
To answer my own question: Should have put the foot down and told her that my finances are no business of the parents. Continued to maintain frame regarding parents.
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Diabs 1d ago
Well imagine down the track how much hassle her parents would have cause you if you had shared assets and children. All that over 50 bucks to a friend. You dodged a bullet.
Overkill_Engine 3 1d ago
It's one thing if they were just giving advice about potential enabling, but if they are not paying your bills, they had no right to butt in or set any terms themselves.
The mentality displayed is not a mentality that is generally fixable via verbal negotiation or frame. Wisdom is recognizing when some people are unfixable with the tools that you have or can ever have. Peace out and leave them to their stupidity.
Now, if it's a situation where you are asking them for help after throwing money down a hole yourself, then yeah you'd have earned an earfull and they'd be justified in setting the terms of any assistance they gave. But if you had it all covered and weren't needing help, they can go take a flying fuck.
Absolutely. Always vet the fuck out of a woman's family and her relationship with them just like you would a woman herself and her friends.
MrSupreme 1d ago
The thing about the parents around wasn't a good deal to begin with, you shouldn't want to move forward with that kind of thing, people like that think they're the only adults, and love feeling that way because they cant feel like adults around other adults. It is wonderful news if she gets along with her family, but these types of issues are also a red flag. I was married to a person who had to tell everything to her family,basically doing what they said and being a drone and her family never had anything nice to say. It was a shitty deal that lasted for too long. but now I know that a woman having a good relationship with her family doesn't mean a green flag.
First-light 1d ago
I think this sounds like an incompatibility issue not a frame issue.
If this was a joint account with fair contributions being paid in by both, then you were in the wrong and she was right to put her foot down but if this was your own account, then heavens you dodged a bullet friend! Either way it shows an incompatibility over how money is handled. You can't force someone incompatible into your frame. This is what she was trying to do -put you in her frame- but had you done it the other way it would still have been a losing game.
Yes as the man you are the leader and create the frame for your family, taking into account their needs, desires and abilities but still taking the leadership decisions but you can't have the wrong second in command on your team for life, frame won't take away the differences that will lead to unhappiness and clashes.
Either you were spending her money wrongly (joint account into which you are an equal or minor contributor) or she thought she owned your money (your personal account). Seeing eye to eye on money is a real bonus for a relationship. A lot of blue pilled men and women think a man owes all his labour to his wife and children but a woman can spend on home, clothes and holidays as she likes to the limit of his earnings. These people are not suitable for red pilled men.
So yes, controlling family can be a deal breaker if they have very different values. A girl being close to family and loyal is a green flag but controlling behaviour is a red one and so are very different ethical values and how money is owned and spent is part of your values.
mattyanon Admin 1d ago
"OUR" finances was your first mistake here.
This isn't a frame issue, this is a dealbreaker.
The problem with "our finances" is that in a woman's mind this is "HER finances". You opened yourself up to her believing she has this amount of control.
Also, she's trying to cut you off from your friends. This is a classic red flag.
Yeah. At this point you have joined finances, so when you put your foot down you move from beta to bad-beta in their eyes.
no
Your finances are YOUR business, not "ours".
But they are putting finances (hers) above people (you).
yes
I wouldn't join finances in the first place.
Look...... this whole thing is more fucked than you realise. You did good to get out.
alchemist 1d ago
Why do you even allow her parents to dictated or judge what you do? Are you vetting her for marriage or lifelong partnership? How long have you been seeing her?
These are all pertinent questions.
I will actually 180 this, having helicopter parents is a GOOD thing. The mother's on her ass why she's going out at 10pm, the dad is shaming her for wearing jeans with rips, they're doing part of the framing for you.
The issue only arises when they are instilling unhealthy habits into her, she repeats the cycle of them, because the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I had to do that with my parents, my father was an absolute alpha, he'd do the reverse gold digger in the 70s, women would pay for his rent, he'd live in multiple countries on the woman's dime, there's still things I don't know, but I know he was a G.
He's the first one who taught me that most men and "father's" act like doormats, he told me about how women are becoming more masculine and all of that, that they should shut up be in the kitchen. But, at the same time his game had faded, and he would often just "ghost" his wife or not want to do things with the family, which I found myself doing with women, and while it can work temporarily, I didn't realize I was taking on his qualities unconsciously.
Ever since I made that connection, I do still distance myself from women, but not fully, not until something happens that makes me fully want to cut ties from a woman. You can still milk them for attention just like they milk you for yours. My mother in particular was heavily a helicopter mom, but for a son that is a big negative, it's not the same for women.
I recommend you read the book "Iron John" by Robert Bly , it goes into the concept of what it means to be a man, and how the journey should be based on an ancient story that's been passed down for years.
But a man must cut ties with his mother as the book goes through, she will try for you to appease nice guy tendencies, the things she lacked in her marriage let's say, but you know she wouldn't have chosen your father if he did the things she wanted too. It's a double edged sword. Nice guys finish last.
For a woman though, it is important she maintains that tie with her mother, she must also have that shame/ accountability aspect with her father, even if her parents are divorced.
Frame is how you swim through these waters, absolutely. If you believe the juice is worth the squeeze, put in more frame. It can definitely have an effect, but she also has to make her own choice. You always want a woman to come correct, if she already has some bad habits, trust that those will just multiply and reveal themselves further on and more commonly. They'll only change when it's too late and they hit the wall and see Jony and Stephanie across the street living happily in their traditional gender roles.