Firstly, I understand the negative connotations here. Let's talk this through.
manipulate (according to merriamwebster)- to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
A manipulative / machiavaelli approach to dating (for me) would be nothing short of getting the right chemicals in the woman's brain to fire, and have those chemicals associated with me.
It seems we already preach a system that accomplishes this to an amount. It's called game, and consists of flirting, push/pull (especially things like disqualifiers to get her to chase), dicarlo escalation ladder (etc). It seems crucial knowing how to do game given that women are already addicted to the chemical hits they get from social media attention in addition to the attention from chads.
In other words, making her want those chemicals associated with you. Fun fact, most women are natural machivaellians, but that doesn't make them evil. Why should it make you or I evil? It's about the intentions and effects.
We spend time with those that make us feel good while avoiding those that make us feel bad.
I wouldn't neglect game or SMV improvement for myself. What I'm purposing is a stronger focus on giving her that brain chemical dump. The best example I can think off the top of my head is huge love-bombing followed by a coquettish withdrawal of attention. (We already even use the withdrawal of attention here. Women do it much more easily because they naturally have all the options. A hottie smiling at a guy followed by a small conversation will get him to chase).
I can imagine some women needing more machiavellian effort to turn for the man while others would need just a touch.
If the targeted girt likes you as a result, that's joy for her and you. Positive hedons for everyone.
We spend time with the people we do because they make us feel good, and avoid those that make us feel bad.
2 nights ago my phone was empty of notifications. Last night, the hb6 from a library said she was busy and didn't take my bait to hang out. An hb7 that sits behind me in philosophy responded way too late (I'm surprised she did respond).
I'd been cold approaching and gaming all week only to be alone again. It doesn't have to be this way. I think I'm capable of learning and implementing this to boost my success.
ObliviousDuck 1y ago Stickied
Your problem is not your motherfucking lack of manipulation skills. I'm not saying that because "manipulation is evil" I'm saying that because manipulation won't fix anything about you or your relationships with women.
Manipulation is what nice guys do and there is nothing that makes a woman drier than a nice guy being present within a mile around.
Once again, it seems you are overthinking everything to the 1000th degree as some sort of buffer. I'm gonna ask you again because @TryingToReform put me in the mood: What are you afraid of? What the fuck are you avoiding? If you can't answer that question about yourself, maybe you should take a few days off gaming all the bitches and think about it. I don't want you to talk to another girl until you can tell us why you keep constantly stepping on your own dick when comes time to close.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 1y ago Stickied
Agreed, @imtranscending
This is yet another case of you failing to apply the basics as intended so you're going down the rabbit hole again of find they latest new solution to get women.
From having conversations with you one on one, you fundamentally mess up on some very basic things. Hence a long time ago i told you to start over, learn how to speak to women without running game, and then slowly incorporate game after you've forgetten the muscle memory of all the shitty bad habits you have/had related to acquiring women
Even if someone perfectly laid out how to be a conniving machiavellianistic bastard you'd still flub it And then next month be on to the next new idea for getting women.
The problem isn't the basics, the problem is you. The basics should be getting you pussy, you're just applying them wrong.
I honestly truly believe if you just kept lifting and and occasionally said something flirty while continuing to cold approachwhile not running any game whatsoever that you'd get more pussy than what you're getting by trying and failing to apply things correctly
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Vermillion-Rx Admin 1y ago
I still think it's the basics dude.
My chubby philipino friend who was in the army who didn't look attractive at all was pulling left and right
He had an undesirable race, weight, physique, and psych issues and was getting three somes, same night lays, fuck tons of tinder matches. Etc
Dude blew me out of the fucking water I was losing prospects to him. They wanted him instead of of me. I couldn't get them. I was their second choice if even in his shadow
Your fucking up the basics dude. 60% of girls are not going to be available from cold approach, even for gods like roosh v, so don't expect anything higher than 20% success but dude you're messing something up somewhere
It's not an SMV problem. It's you.
You don't want to accept it man. I just do not think you have a natural progression from one thing to another in your sets. I've seen your texts, there is something you're just not grasping for transitions into stranger, to familiar face, to date/hang out
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ObliviousDuck 1y ago
While I agree with the premise of "fake it till you make it", manipulative behaviours is something you want to get rid of, not acquire. It brings nothing else but misery for others and yourself. It stiffles your true personal growth and as I said, women find it repugnant anyway so it won't help.
What you described is an orbiter, not a nice guy.
A nice guy uses good behaviour, emotions, passive agressiveness, his chivalry, to manipulate people into giving him what he wants instead of just asking for it directly. Every single action a nice guy does, or does not, is manipulation, to appear virtuous so he will obtain what he wants. It's so ingrained from years of social endoctrination he doesn't even realise he's doing it.
Does it work? Shit no! But go ahead, try it and see if people are that dupe. You might get a few bites, but in exchange most people will disrespect you.
What part of your SMV you think needs work and prevents you from at least fucking a 6 today?
Vermillion-Rx Admin 1y ago
How is manipulation going to help?? You'd still be the same. SMV
Whatever the fuck you could do to manipulate them would be better served actually just by having better game. Dude. Really? You just want to cut women down, lie to them etc? Instead of learning how to be more fun and enticing
Bad path imo. You're gonna end up being the guy who wants to destroy their self esteem and mental health just so you can get your dick wet.
That's essentially what you're wanting on the manipulation path and you'll never be any higher value, more fun, nor more well-adjusted for it. You'd just be a self-indulgent narc that has a shitty persona and you'll be straight cancer to any men that see it
You just have sour grapes mentality and you're looking for anything other than mastering the basics.
I don't think you realize how bad the scarcity looks on our end seeing this. You should be better at the basics than anyone else if your SMV is really that low.
You should master giving them tingles if you can't make them wet. You're not a bad looking guy you just keep shooting yourself in the dick with overthinking, not understanding what to do at what times, and not transitioning well, or keeping their interest
I've seen your texts and read your FRs and called you. It's basic shit that's fucking the sets and progressions
The sooner you accept that and actually figure out where your basics are going wrong you'd be better off
Edit: not concern trolling, i just think having to manipulate women for puss is low value
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ObliviousDuck 1y ago
A good way.
SeasonedRP 1 1y ago
It's better to have a mindset of not caring how things go with a particular girl and instead recognizing interest when it arises and devoting your efforts to girls who are interested. You can't trick someone into liking you.
Gilles 1y ago
In continuation of my response to your previous post. The problem with trying to become dark triad is that it comes from a scarcity mindset in my opinion. If you truly feel that you are enough, if you believe in yourself, then you don't need to apply manipulation. You don't care whether women choose you or not, because you know you have value. Trying to become dark triad contradicts what TRP is teaching - the whole process is about you, about growing the confidence to dare go after what you want in life. It is not about about how many women fuck you. Women come as a bonus for actually investing in yourself. Women are attracted to men that enjoy their life.
Game shouldn't be confused with manipulation. Game is a learned set of behaviors that women sexually respond to. It's grey area, but the premise of manipulation is that you try to hurt/take away value from women. Applying game is not this - you are honest about you intentions of wanting to have sex with a women. This doesn't hurt them and is therefore not manipulative.