Long story short my ltr cooks/cleans is always ready to fuck and generally does things to please me. However I’ve noticed that she can be quite defiant sometimes and will sometimes respond negatively to me asking her to do things or change behaviours. She replies to them with your not my guardian or that she’s not a child to be commanded around.
For example one day I saw that she was messaging some old guy friends from school but it was simple texts like hey,hi,what’s new, how’s work. So I told her that if she wants me to take her seriously then I don’t believe in guy friends no matter how platonic and innocent. She replies by saying I’m exhibiting controlling behaviour.
Another time I saw her watching videos of guys thirst trapping on tiktok and I told her that I believe TikTok is a cancer and that I can’t see her in a positive way if her idea of entertainment is watching guys dance shirtless. She gets emotional and deletes app
Fast forward to a few days ago I randomly saw her TikTok and checked her following list (800 new people she followed in the last month) some of which were guys that post to thirst traps and garbage to get women to follow them. I call her out on this and call her but she ignores my calls but proceeds to unfollow everybody. She ignores my calls for the rest of the day and acts like she hasn’t done anything wrong
So generally I remain composed and act unphased but that day while she was going on her defiant tirade I called her a bitch, slut, whore etc that doesn’t like to listen and needs to stfu and follow my rules or gtfo. This was over the phone and then subsequently over text
She responds by saying that im acting in a absuive manner and she will not continue the conversation. So I continue swearing at her because she hasn’t blocked me and is continuing the conversation. Eventually she stops responding and now it’s been 2 days since we last spoke
What should be doing at this point. I feel like I need some serious advice either for myself or my relationship
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DastardlyCade 2y ago
What was your situation with her like? Were there some things you were tolerating that you were not happy with. And what were the dealerbrealers as well as the ones you were willing to let slide
Onetwothree123 2y ago
I tell.you.dude its very satisfactory not to call women sluts bitches whores etc (except sex). Its a very good habit.
I wish you well, improve your frame you can start by not doing above, treat it as your benchmark.
DastardlyCade 2y ago
Any advice to not break frame and to remain cool and composed. Sometimes im Bewildered at some of the stuff guys are able to tolerate. I guess from my perspective when I lose my shit I feel like things have gotten to a point where I slap the truth in her face sprinkled with some not so nice words SINCE It does seem we’re headed for the end anyways. And then I end up regretting later on and start to process the out of pocket things I say
Ibanez 2y ago
You did not lost your cool, like some 21yo losers say around here.
First off, understand that gen Z girls will not be submissive, this is not their default behavior, because they are brainwashed.
Second of all, she does not respect you or think that you're her top guy (best does not exist, it will always be better, Tomassi is a larp when he talks about being THE BEST option).
Third of all, she might be a covert hoe trying to play the housewife. It is really common with ex party girls and hoes, rebellious thrash feminists to act submissive and please the guy for a short to medium period of time, just so that they can get his commitment or be in a LTR, 'cause you know, all her friends are in a LTR.
No matter, her true behavior and personality will come out in time, sometimes having little sprouts like the ones you were describing.
DastardlyCade 2y ago
Alongside that I think it also has to do with their dopamine receptors being fried and looking for quick short term dopamine hits.
In terms of women acting like that. What percent of that can be attributed to me not having my shit together and having emotional outbursts like the one I mentioned in the OP. Does that make them less likely to follow your lead. Say you got your shit together 90% of the time and you slip up and get caught off guard 10% of the time
Ibanez 2y ago
You cannot live like that, based on "oh, what if she does this or that?!".
This should not be your concern. You need to dive a bit deeper into what frame is and means. Developing frame is a long process, as it is strongly tied to changing your mindset, personality and many more.
When you ask yourself "If I am 9/10 times alpha but I slip that tiny one", then you are in her frame.
You need to internalize frame or better yet, your new frame. Once internalized, you will begin to think and act from your pov and interest, not even intentionally wanting to act like that.
Besides that, I think you need some more experience with women, see what's around. OLD girls don't count, as they are just pump & dumps and they are pretty much 99% the same. If someone gets a LTR from OLD, then he deserves whatever is coming to him.
You can also study dread game and passive dread. I think passive dread is a great game to have, you can wear it like an aura. It's basically being a "high value man".
Vermillion-Rx Admin 2y ago
Women are children but if you treat them literally like literal children it doesn't work out.
Either you find a woman that inherently already knows this or you don't. This is such an unrealistic alpha standard to put on a modern woman. Rarely works out in practice. This is just alpha boundaries and is not practical nor realistic.
Her watching TikTok is destroying your frame, let's not kid ourselves and call it what it is.
So you're gonna get her to unfollow everyone she follows but she's still going to have the same desires to consume this stuff whether she follows them or not, which not only makes you look insecure, but also won't change her desires or behaviors. This probably accomplished either nothing or cost you.
You were willing to die on some small hills and then not surprisingly died on one of those hills.
Arguing over text never accomplishes anything, especially in an LTR. Bad move.
No comment
Are you surprised? If so, you need some serious self reflection. If not, you need to be honest with yourself.
This is the problem with men trying to alpha Chad their LTRs and whipping out a ton of "do what I say muh alpha" alpha bravado cards out of their sleeves to control the outcomes of theirs relationships.
I see so many guys fall into this "my LTR is a submissive unicorn" fallacy and then get frustrated and controlling when they're green flag unicorn does a bunch of red flag shit.
If you're not happy with a lot of her habits she brings to the table, and they are not small preferential things that most people would be willing to adjust for a partner (like cleanliness habits, ways they interact with YOU, etc) then you are not making solid vetting decisions prior to committing
You cannot change who people are. You are going the obligation and desperation persuasion route where you beat the target of your argument into submission instead of using arguments that inspire or impassion them towards change.
That rarely works on a basic social psychological level. And changes in behavior are going to be disingenuous at best when you criticize them into change. It also sparks reactance (also known as reverse psychology).
An honest reflection here is that you had a relatively submissive ltr with some poorly vetted red flags, that don't seem terribly bad. She sounds young and immature based on your description of what she did that pissed you off.
None of the stuff you mentioned was remotely consistent with the level of frame you lost or demands you made.
You cannot genuinely change people via the methods you employed, especially women, who are solipsistic and immature as fuck
Your most realistic solution in this case is to apologize and make peace, the problem with trying to have giga Chad alpha Apex frame (making massive demands like you're entitled to being the king of the relationship) is a ploy that rarely works and forces you to end up apologizing and conceding frame later.
Your alternative is to double down on it and hope she's desperate enough to stick around.
I've been telling guys to stop trying to deliberately be alpha chads in their LTRs for years, because it doesn't work if you have to overtly be one in the LTR
DastardlyCade 2y ago
You are right about the fact that she may be young and immature (just turned 20) and perhaps a lot of the things she does is just a continuation of what she used to do before we met (I’m her first)
She doesn’t go out and just stays home and cooks/cleans so maybe that’s adding to her boredom where she’s doom scrolling tiktok (although I’m not too pleased with the content she watches)
You mentioned that the best course of action would be to make peace. How would I go about that. It’s been 4-5 days since we last spoke or texted.
It does seem like she’s also going the “let him reach out to me first if still wants me” since he called me every name in the book. Would It be a loss of frame if I then reached out to her?
Intrepid_Place53900 1 2y ago
I'm guessing you are real young, like under 25.
I wouldn't be looking for a LTR at your age in the first place. Have fun with these girls and get your life setup. Have a rotation, maybe even just a few girls who have possibilities, but don't LTR them.
Getting back to what y ou should do though.
first, this girl is not ready for LTR material. she's still trying to balance being a party girl and a LTR, you can't be both.
She followed (800) people in the last month? She's too much into social media.
Look, again, I recommend doing this when you are older, 30 and above for real LTRs.
At that point, you just sit back and watch their behavior. Are they into social media? you discuss politely and clamly that you are not a fan, that you have expectations with a girl in a LTR regarding Social media, pulling out their phone while you are together,etc.
If they break your expectations, they remain a plate , or you move on.
They never are considered for a LTR , until they meet your expectations.
whytehorse2021 2y ago
I have a different take on this. You're supposed to be responsible for your woman's safety so you should have authority over her behaviour. It's a natural instinct for men to mate-guard and become territorial. It helped our species survive. The notion that this is somehow "controlling" is just feminist gaslighting to enable whoredom. If she wants to say you're not her guardian, then don't be her guardian. Demote to plate and continue your search for a decent woman.
It sounds like she's already getting ready to dump you. She just needs to find a new guy to monkey branch to. And good riddance if she's defiant and combative.
DastardlyCade 2y ago
So catch is we are from a traditional society. Where she stays home with her mom and family and cooks and cleans and doesn’t go out whatsoever. She hasn’t done anything for me to question her fidelity and she is obsessed with me.
So with this whole I don’t need a guardian thing can probably be explained by her exposure to TikTok. Which is riddled with “boss babes” and “miss independants” and “miss you don’t need anybody” so it is easy to doom scroll your way into being brainwashed.
Now my question is how do I truly Determine that she isn’t willing to obey and listen and if the best bet is to make peace since I lost frame and called her every name in the book. We haven’t spoken in 4-5 days
whytehorse2021 2y ago
Your only power in the relationship is your ability to walk away. You can't make her do anything. She has to do it voluntarily. If you think you fucked up by becoming an emotional bitch and getting angry, then apologize.
The way I handle feminist propaganda ruining my woman is to casually show her some posts on https://www.trp.red/feed/t/whereareallthegoodmen . I frequently chat with my wife about how these women are miserable and made bad choices. She has a constant reminder of how good she has it. You might even go so far as to show her how these tik tok hoes are all fake and what their life is really like.
dongking 2y ago
Doesn't look like it.
Work on your frame man. Sure, your gf is acting out of order - but that is no excuse for getting emotional like a child.
You make your boundaries clear once, if broken - remove attention and demote to plate - or if it's real bad just hard next her.
DastardlyCade 2y ago
So with this whole I don’t need a guardian thing can probably be explained by her exposure to TikTok. Which is riddled with “boss babes” and “miss independants” and “miss you don’t need anybody” so it is easy to doom scroll your way into being brainwashed.
Now my question is how do I truly Determine that she isn’t willing to obey and listen and if the best bet is to make peace since I lost frame and called her every name in the book. We haven’t spoken in 4-5 days
Another thing that surprises me is how most guys I see don’t even know or care what their girl does and watches so technically they never have a problem. Am I paying attention to minuscule details that should never be catching my eye ?
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DastardlyCade 2y ago
When, if ever do you communicate dissatisfaction verbally. If they’re not listening or being combatitive etc. for those types of scenarios is there really only one solution
Overkill_Engine Endorsed Contributor 2y ago
Err on the side of never. You are male, your role is demonstrative, not explicative. If there is a behavior from her that is a dealbreaker, talking it out is pointless verbal masturbation - you are just fucking yourself. You just withdraw your effort and attention and she either figures it the fuck out or she doesn't.
DastardlyCade 2y ago
When she first stepped out of line I should’ve immediately withdrew attention. What I instead did was I lashed out and swore at her and lost frame
Now we haven’t spoken for about 4-5 days. What’s the best course of action. We both play the waiting game and see who folds or i causally hit her up and act like nothing was ever wrong?
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DastardlyCade 2y ago
When she first stepped out of line I should’ve immediately withdrew attention. What I instead did was I lashed out and swore at her and lost frame
Now we haven’t spoken for about 4-5 days. What’s the best course of action. We both play the waiting game and see who folds or i causally hit her up and act like nothing was ever wrong ?
Overkill_Engine Endorsed Contributor 2y ago
The only thing you should say to her (absolute silence is still better, but I suspect you lack the discipline for such) from here on out is some variant of:
"It is clear we have different expectations in a relationship. This isn't going to work out. Best of luck."
Why?
Nothing you say will ever change who she is. There is no magic argument. You can either tolerate her behaviors or you cannot. Shit or get off the pot.
DastardlyCade 2y ago
It’s interesting you say that because I remember reading and hearing others talk about how women are programmable creatures and they just follow their programming. So either she’s programmed by society or she’s programmed by you.
In what situations is it an example of you inspiring a woman to be the best version of herself. Also people say that a women is a reflection of her man (how and who he is and what he wants etc)
So in your case you say that a woman comes prepacked to fit your needs or she goes out the door
Overkill_Engine Endorsed Contributor 2y ago
See your problem is you are still letting your ego get in the way. You took the term programming and have chosen to only interpret in a way that suits your ego.
That's a you problem, and all your arguing does not change this simple reality: You cannot argue a woman into being what she is not. It is hubris to think that you can any more than thinking that you can negotiate attraction.
Look, I get it, she makes your pp hard, and does nice things here and there, and you like that and really really really really don't want to lose that, but jesus fucking christ on a cracker, you never really had it to begin with, and it's on you to admit that.
We've been there, done that, ate the consequences.
Here's a thought exercise for you:
You had a cake that you really liked except it had shaved coconut on it, so you took a massive bile drenched diarrhea shit on it. Soaked every crevice with last night's food safety violating curry laden fecal matter. Made it absolutely redolent with spices and all that.
So you come here asking how you can make this particular cake nice again and not all shitty? But it had a list of ingredients and a recipe so you should be able to remake this particular cake to exactly what you like, right? What's the magic mixing bowl brand and temperature settings? Maybe trot out a few autist tier arguments about the definition of mixing bowl. Surely that will get the paint by numbers answer that you are wanting.
Except the problem is, you just simply can't un-shit on a cake. You go and get a new cake and try not to shit in it maybe. And pay attention to whether or not it came with shaved coconut. Man I hate that stuff. The texture is just annoying.
Edit: I may have indulged a bit too much in making that analogy. But seriously, if you cannot stand the toppings (behaviors) on a cake (woman), don't buy it (commit), and certainly don't shit on it (break frame/try to negotiate attraction or her core traits) or you'll just end up asking a bunch of jaded assholes silly questions on par with "how to un-shit on a cake?"
Overkill_Engine Endorsed Contributor 2y ago
You fucked up, accept the loss and just move on. Learn from your mistakes, you aren't going to be able to undo them. There is no magic turn back the clock solution, so get over that hope. This place is not a hug box and should not be treated as such. We're not women.
You fucked up by trying to set overt ultimatums to begin with, and you fucked up by getting even remotely emotional at her transgressing boundaries.
You should have soft demoted her to plate at minimum, and should not have LTR'd her to begin with if her behavior was not on point.
It's not your job to teach her, an adult woman, how to act right in a relationship. She either figures it out or she does not get an LTR from you to begin with.
If nothing else, get this: needing to overtly set boundaries is weak bitch behavior. She either already knows they exist and stays within them to get to keep access to you, or she does not. There is no discussion or negotiation. It's a perpetually ongoing test, not a fucking conversation. There is no anger or texting, or attempts to correct her. It's pass or fail. And if you aren't handling your shit well enough to get a replacement and thus fear losing her, that's a you problem.
DastardlyCade 2y ago
When she first stepped out of line I should’ve immediately withdrew attention. What I instead did was I lashed out and swore at her and lost frame
Now we haven’t spoken for about 4-5 days. What’s the best course of action. We both play the waiting game and see who folds or i causally hit her up and act like nothing was ever wrong ?
One of the reasons why I posted on here was to see what people thought about how things went down relative to the situation/behaviour at hand
Also another thing I noticed is that most dudes don’t even care what their girl does. They just live their lives. Id presume they wouldn’t be too happy if they figured out what are some of the things their girls do online.
Am I justified in having these expectations of a GEn Z
Overkill_Engine Endorsed Contributor 2y ago
Consider the relationship over.
Again:
You are holding out hope that you can get her back/turn back the clock and make everything hunky-dory. Kill that hope, it is a noose around your neck!
You have already assessed her as having behaviors that you cannot tolerate in a relationship. You cannot negotiate who she is as a person and who she is as a person is expressed in her behaviors! Thus, no relationship should occur.
Wrong question. Again, you cannot change who she fundamentally is as a person. And it certainly isn't your job to do so, either. All you can do is accurately assess it and either accept it or walk.
You may end up having to a lot of walking if you keep trying to LTR social media obsessed thots though.
Durek_The_Bald 2y ago
Whenever I see people applying "textbook" TRP interactions, like this:
...my immediate thought is, these are not your boundaries. These are boundaries you picked up somewhere online, "...because when a girl does X, it automatically means Y, and you're not alpha if you don't have a problem with that".
And because they are boundaries adopted from someone else (lack of frame), because "Coach Shit-For-Brains" said so, all nuance goes out the window, and the enforcement of them becomes but an exercise in peak autism.
If these were your actual boundaries, shaped through your own frame (not the frame of somebody else), then the enforcement of them would be much simpler. It would either be a matter of "next" or "don't care", not second-guessing every move you make, and having a meltdown in the process.
Context matters a great deal when evaluating sweeping statements like this:
That's fine. But if it's really you believing this, then why are you still negotiating with her? Why aren't you just hard nexting her?
Or could it be that you know a bit more about the context here, than internet randos spouting all encompassing trueisms?
Here's an example of how context matters:
Scenario A:
"My girl fucks me good anytime I want, and generally makes an effort to hold on to me. But she's got a couple of platonic male friends since highschool, both of whom I totally AMOG."
Scenario B:
"My girl is rationing sex, and gives me a pissy attitude whenever I bring it up. Now she's got this new platonic, male friend from work, who btw totally AMOGs me."
The first one, I personally wouldn't give two fucks about. The second one, there are issues there. The difference is in the context.
Obviously, nobody needs to tell you what a giant fuck up this was. But again, it's an issue with not having frame.
Problematic_Browser 1 2y ago
You know where you fucked up?
You fucked up by arguing.
You don't argue with women, children, or idiots. (Whoops, tautology!)
You gain nothing from arguing with them except you make them think that their points have merit or are worth considering.
You set a boundary and she responded with classic shaming. You should have just said "okay, no problem" and walked away. No drama, no argument, no scene - just a simple exiting of her life.
But you didn't. And, because you didn't, she proceeded to continually disregard your boundaries and push back on you when you tried to establish them.
This is the part where she is essentially telling you what the fucking rules are, and what did you do?
Oh, you let her control your emotions. I'm sure that was extremely effective and put her in her place.
Well, guess not.
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Overkill_Engine Endorsed Contributor 2y ago
This @Dastardlycade
Accept that you cannot argue a woman into changing who she is. She's either fully onboard or she is NOT. And the latter gets nothing from you. Not your time, attention, resources, or your anger, or any other feeeeeeeeeeeeeeling. NOTHING. She is a pebble on the road.