So, basically, I agree with everything the TRP lays out about ruthlessness of dating/relationships; hypergamy, AF/BB, ASD, AWALT, frame, etc., the whole package.
But I'm also religious af! In fact, this pessimism about relationships, and life in general, itself is a big part of our religion (Buddhism); so the general thrust we've always gotten, and I agree with, is life is already royally fucked up own its own. Disease, poverty, old age, conflict, violence, disappointments. So don't go around fucking it up even more!
Instead, you should be compassionate, have empathy, choose non-violence, avoid ego boosting, etc.--you get the point. Be humble and grounded, basically.
But I also KNOW that game works. I've tried to 'run' it in my own unconscious (and now conscious) ways. However, here's the dilemma I'm facing: I'm already too fucking concerned about the women and other people who are going to get damaged by this shit. I just care too fucking much. And I just help it.
I really don't think there's any such thing as ethical game. So if someone is running game, someone somewhere is obviously going to get fucked up, eventually. Be it the Alpha Widow, the Clueless Beta, or the larger culture that's going to descend into degeneracy (single moms, divorces, etc.)
Ideally I, or any religious person for that matter, would've preferred to get with a simple, virgin girl with similar goals and values. Someone to stick together with through the thick and thin, no matter what. But in this and day, I'm uncertain if that's even a possibility.
So, what the hell is a religious guy even supposed to do?
PS: Please don't get sidetracked with "religion is BS", etc. It's not helpful at all.
Einsamer 1y ago
You should. I am not religious but I think Buddhism is one of the better religions and has a lot of good insights. I also don't think it is really at odds with TRP.
Let me tell you something: when I was younger, I screwed up and messed up chances with a couple of girls because I was stupid and too caring. In hindsight, I was sometimes trying to be nice, but then I realized: I actually hurt those girls by essentially also taking away THEIR chances of being happy with me.
Ever since then I learned that working on myself and improving and learning game not only makes ME happy but also makes the girls happy. What's important is to understand that the girl would NOT be better off if she wouldn't date with you. let's say you apply game and you have a good time with a girl but it turns out you two are not a good match for a LTR and her heart is broken and she is sad. Do you think this girl would, in hindsight, choose to NOT do the same thing again? Rarely. Chances are, she would still do it again because she enjoyed it, even knowing her heart would break.
Don't believe me? Just look around at how many girls hang out with bad guys and go back to them even if they get beaten. Do you think those girls are all braindead and stupid? That would be quite arrogant of you. No, they choose this because they enjoy the "good parts" so much that they prefer to also suffer through the bad parts. That's reality.
So what you are supposed to do is: live by your religion but don't interprete your religion wrong and making it an excuse not to act. There is nothing in Buddhism that prevents you from running game. The only thing it does is telling you not to run game if game contains really bad things like beating someone else up to get the girl - while this CAN in fact be part of game, you should not do that if you are following Buddhism.
Otherwise, please give a very concrete example of what happened and how Buddhism made game impossible and then you'll get a concrete answer.
And last but not least: religion is still made / carried on by people, by humans. Rules that might have might sense true hundreds of years ago do not necessarily apply to current times. So be mindful of that and don't follow religion blindly. Try to understand the core believes and the intention behind it.
JamesSkepp Moderator 1y ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/RPChristians/
FYI I'm an atheist.
I engaged a few times with RPC. The gist of that sub is: god first, RP second. So basically whenever there is a conflict or some discrepancy between TRP and god/Bible, the second one wins. That's basically handicapping yourself into half-BP half-RP position when it comes to engaging women - and that's b/c sexual strategy is amoral and Christian morality heavily resembles BP style of engaging with women. Not to mention women have no qualms about actively being immoral (not amoral) toward men by lying, half truths, keeping things from them - not b/c they are evil or have deliberate bad intentions (some do tho) but b/c their female nature tells them to play to their strengths and our weaknesses. Blame god, he made them that way.
That being said, here's another lesson from RPC: there's enough Bible verses and most of them are open to interpretation, to varying degrees, that you can just coast on quoting Bible verse that vaguely, maybe, probably means that you should fuck that girl. I've seen that happen. Go forth and multiply.
FYI I'm a PUA.
You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. For brevity, there are only 2 possible states: she wants to fuck you or she doesn't want to fuck you. If she does want to fuck you, you can be a convicted pedophile (as the tinder experiments showed) and that wont stop her at all. If she doesn't want to fuck you, no amount of being ethical or unethical will make her.
The purpose of the game is to understand the process of seduction, meaning to understand what happens between man and a woman from the moment they meet to the moment they end up in bed. There's a general framework to this process, but the specifics can often be tailored to both you and the girl. If you want to be "ethical" it's up to you to customize the process in a way that will satisfy your morality.
How are women going to get damaged by game?
You overestimate how much many people actually do game and ow much impact does it have on anything else. There's a lot of "degeneracy" all over the place and I haven't seen guys on PUA forums scheming how to make something "degenerate". Maybe I'm not on the correct forums.
I strongly urge you to suspend your Christianity for an hour or two and read the sidebar on the main sub without preconceived notions that this is degeneracy, unethical or that women are evil and so on - and do that until you understand, not agree with us. Read it like a car manual without moral judgments, you have your entire life to be Christian.
The reason I'm saying it like the is b/c you have MAJOR bluepill glasses on. You see, I haven't even read that line of your post and have correctly diagnosed your problem - "Christian morality heavily resembles BP style of engaging with women".
Finally, most likely, you want to get married. RP is generally opposed to the concept for various reasons, both cultural and sexual strategy ones. There are guys who swear marriage is the only proper way to live and they have their arguments, but for every guy like that there's 10 guys with horror stories about what their virgin wives with similar goals and values put them through once they decided they have enough of their husband.
dondraper42 1y ago
"and that's b/c sexual strategy is amoral and Christian morality heavily resembles BP style of engaging with women."
Well, that's an interesting way to put in. Although I'm a Buddhist, I'd agree that is the case for Buddhism as well. In general, most religious people I know go for comfort first (similar values, faith, wealth security), and then attraction second.
"Not to mention women have no qualms about actively being immoral (not amoral) toward men by lying, half truths, keeping things from them - not b/c they are evil or have deliberate bad intentions (some do tho) but b/c their female nature tells them to play to their strengths and our weaknesses."
Fortunately or unfortunately, that's what I've seen happen in a lot of religious communities I know.
I guess I am angry about how things about could've been different, only if the girl had strong belief and submission to real, patriarchal religion. But these days even the religious preachers are drumming up gender studies theories, etc.
"There are guys who swear marriage is the only proper way to live, and they have their arguments, but for every guy like that there's 10 guys with horror stories about what their virgin wives with similar goals and values put them through once they decided they have enough of their husband."
Yeah. I won't dispute that, as I've seen it happen.
"How are women going to get damaged by game?"
Alpha widowed, anxiety by plate spinning, constant pumping and dumping, inability to pair bond later in life, giving shit to the betas they eventually marry, etc. Perhaps this is guilt by my religious upbringing, but I guess I'd feel pathetic about the above side effects of enjoying women for my own happiness (which is temporary at best). Like I said, it would've been nice if I could've found a woman who'd agree to follow a simple religious contract, but I guess it won't be possible today.
JamesSkepp Moderator 1y ago
Women don't submit to systems of values like religion or patriarchy b/c you cannot be sexually attracted to patriarchy or religion b/c. Whan a woman is attracted to a man she willingly and eagerly submits to him. Contrast this with religion or patriarchy telling women to submit. The missing component is sexual attraction, and a system of value cannot have that, it's not a human being.
IOW when did telling women to be attracted ever worked?
Not directly. This is the result of BP upbringing. When it comes to m-f relations religions are BP and produce betas. That's b/c religions are created by men, and most men are BP and beta. So, it's only partially correct to put all blame on religion (as if belief in invisible man makes you BP or RP). What religion, most certainly, can be blamed for is the fact that it tells its followers that the BP/beta behaviours it promotes come from god/spiritual/metaphysical realm and must be obeyed as such, completely omitting the fact that it comes form men.
The thing that enables the above bahaviours is female nature coupled with civilizational advancements.. There isn't enough men who game to actually make any significant impact on the population of women to make your conclusion correct. The majority of the above behaviours happens b/c women have now access to unlimited men and unlimited number of interactions by men. Most of this is made possible large population growth, population concentration (not large cities by themselves, but rather by massive decline in sparse rural population) and, even absent first two, social media which gives them instant access to any man they want.
IOW you can't fuck around if you live a 100 population village, everyone knows everything.
Use ">" to quote text.
dondraper42 1y ago
Hmm.... I think I'm understanding it now. Thanks for the write-up, I appreciate it.
Bulba 1y ago
My experience is that there are bluepilled and redpilled groups inside every religion. Birds of the same feather flock together. These two groups are categorized as the “reform” or “modern” and the “traditional” or “orthodox” group.
dondraper42 1y ago
That is correct. This is the case for eastern religions as well. A "modern" or "reform" version of Buddhism is slowly emerging, mostly through the beta Western Buddhists mixing gender studies and feminism into our religion. This is then uncritically taken on by the betas of the East here.
Currently, I'm stuck with a reform group, so I can't find anyone there.
Bulba 1y ago
The same thing is happening with Hinduism as well. Even in Islam this is happening.
I wonder who is pushing for these ideas from behind the curtain.
whytehorse2021 1y ago
I know a bit about Theravada Buddhism after living in Thailand for 4 years. The key tenet of not becoming attached is also the key tenet of not getting ONEITIS. The key tenet of honesty with yourself is the key tenet of not making covert contracts. The tenet of sexual responsibility is the same tenet as maximizing your male reproductive strategy(game).
Do not try and bend the red pill, that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth... There is no red pill... Then you'll see that it is not the red pill that bends, it is only yourself.
dondraper42 1y ago
"I know a bit about Theravada Buddhism after living in Thailand for 4 years. The key tenet of not becoming attached is also the key tenet of not getting ONEITIS. The key tenet of honesty with yourself is the key tenet of not making covert contracts."
That's fair.
"The tenet of sexual responsibility is the same tenet as maximizing your male reproductive strategy (game)." I believe this to be false. Sexual responsibility in the strictest terms acc. to Buddhism would be either complete abstinence (if you're a monk) or just not cheating if you're living a lay life, basically.
But there's also a concern about not disappointing others. If you run the game, sure, the girls would get the high of the emotional experiences and be happy in the short term. But what about the future? They're not like men, and they're eventually going to suffer from this promiscuity (inability to pair bond, unrealistic standards, etc.); they'll in turn make other people around them suffer as well.
"Then you'll see that it is not the red pill that bends, it is only yourself."
I don't understand. I basically agree with everything RP lays out. I'm just terrified of it's larger consequences.
whytehorse2021 1y ago
Red pill is amoral. It's up to you how you implement it in your life. I went into my marriage open and honest about wanting a wife and kids and my wife was the same. Some guys want to sleep with lots of women. My own reproductive strategy is to have few but successful offspring. Red pill works for that. I also like to bang hoes and make them cum. Red pill works for that too. I don't care what someone else feels about extramarital sex because my wife knows and doesn't care.
dondraper42 1y ago
That's a fair agreement, I think.
Btw, how tf you got your wife on board with this, lol? This is some solid game.
whytehorse2021 1y ago
First I got her secure in our relationship. Then I explained to her about how she gets to be cared for long after her SMV drops. Finally I reassured her that she is the one who gets my resources. For women it's all about competition for the man's resources. With a hoe you just pay a little and then move on.