So I was joking with my LTR. She started taking about how she NEEDED a pedicure. I started making fun of her... "Sure, you NEED a pedicure like I need a foot in my ass." Just trying to get her to realize how to separate her wants from her needs in a light-hearted way. She kills the mood by snapping, "don't patronize me." I mean a complete 180 on our conversation.
She says this to me all the time. Every time she says it, I have no solid go-to response. When she said it this time, I just shut down. I didn't want to talk to her at all because she just wanted to be bitchy and I could tell. Who wants to talk to someone like that? This is just one example of the frequent snappy outbursts she has against me. It's incredibly emasculating and needs to stop, but I don't know any short-term solutions in the heat of the moment. Sure, long term would be to just keep doing me and improve my SMV since respect is earned and not given away for free. It just feels like she constantly takes a dig at me to tell me "she's in charge". Anyone have any pointers or corrections?
aaron_the_just 11y ago
(1) Lift more.
(2) Spin more plates (going to be tough since you're in an LTR, but at least try to get things going
(3) Run some dread game.
If that doesn't help:
(4) Next her.
Also:
(5) Stop trying to use logical arguments with women about emotional topics. It's a complete waste of time. If she says she needs a pedicure, instead of being an aggressive try-hard dork, be goofy-funny and say "Yeah, I need one too. In fact, I'll be at the local nail salon this afternoon." Then go fishing or something for the afternoon.
[deleted] 11y ago
Think about it from game theory. You are basically two players to a game where you have an option to play the "nice" card or the "mean" card in reaction to what has happened in the past. The winning strategy to this game is to play the nice card if you start the round and then continue to play the nice card so long as your partner does the same. If your partner plays the mean card, you return the favor, penalizing their behavior.
It seems like your girlfriend played the nice card when she mentioned her pedicure, then you played an obvious mean card. I suppose that she could have been implying that you ought to pay for it, which would be mean with plausible deniability, but you could have replied similarly "Yes, your feet aren't looking so great." It seems to me that it was just an instance of her talking for the sake of talking so you could have just lead the conversation in a different direction.
So her response to you was textbook - she played a nice card, you played a mean one and you got a mean card right back. Since you led with the mean card, I'm not really seeing how this particular instance is her fault.
That worries me a bit, because it implies that she's playing the mean card on you when you haven't done anything and that's an issue. The solution is to play a mean card right back and stop the game for a while if it gets into a streak of mean cards (aka: an argument).
If you lose your temper you've effectively lost if it was a shit test. Play your mean card without being angry about it - a disinterested but firm tone. I can't give you an example, because you were being patronizing about her pedicure so you essentially just got called out on your own behavior. If you've got some other example, I could come up with what I'd say in that situation.
[deleted] 11y ago
I read this theory in MMSL. I actually wish I didn't spend money on that book because all of the strong points are scattered throughout TRP literature and the manosphere. But I digress...
I need to approach with some beta since it's a LTR. The issue I always have is only using that with no alpha qualities. Alpha seems to only come out to play during sexytime. I feel like that's because I've been manipulated into thinking that's the only appropriate time for that. Blah... Not proud of that.
I am a little messed up from reading some of the TRP material and need to calibrate my views to TRP theory a little more. My old self would have just tried to approach in a hypersensitive douchebaggy way whining about my feelings. I've been alright with some other things, but in this scenario I have struggled. I'll see if I can flag another example soon.
[deleted] 11y ago
What is it exactly that you want out of this relationship that you aren't getting?
[deleted] 11y ago
Love in the form of respect is the puzzle piece I feel like I'm missing. We've been on a rocky road for the past few months.
BooksofMagic 11y ago
I'm pretty sure I talked to you before. It seems like your end goal is still focused on your wife instead of yourself. Listen to /u/Enpheugo. You need to relax and find other things in your life that make you happy and give her a chance to follow your lead rather than pushing it down her throat.
Also - MMSL isn't a bible. Athol Kay took YEARS to figure things out and years more to make all the changes.
aaron_the_just 11y ago
Love in the form of respect is the most precious commodity a woman has, and it is jealously guarded.
It is rarely meted out regularly in LTRs.
[deleted] 11y ago
She isn't going to respect you just because you want it to be so. Seeking her approval is going to leave the power in her hands. Winning her respect should not be your goal, rather you should seek to be someone worthy of respect.
I'd suggest that you stop trying to direct your wife in the least. She's rightfully calling you out when you treat her like a child. If you want her to follow you, you've got to make your game plan look more fun than hers. Then she can get the choice between following your plan or making up her own. You win this war by making your plan awesome and then following through on it reliably. If she doesn't jump on the chance to follow you, some other woman will.
If you are improving yourself, you can expect that she is going to fight it. She's going to sabotage your plans, throw shitfits and generally try to make it seem like you are destroying the marriage by developing a spine. She does this because it was effective in the past.
Continue to develop your value, ignore her attacks. Don't waste time fighting it out with her - if it gets into a fight, just have something better to do. You have this odd obsession with winning the argument when the winning move is not to play.
Play through the attacks and look at where you are losing. You mentioned below that you called her out for her attitude and she fired back with "You sound just like my father." She's fighting dirty, but it only works if it hurts you. It's not your response that defeats the attack, it's your emotional reaction.
You can pare it back with a simple comment: "I am not your father." Just don't engage. If she's being shitty, just go do your own thing - you do have your own thing planned for the night don't you? When she's done being pissed off, she can join you, but not until she's going to behave. I'm dead serious that if you are going out for dinner and she's throwing a shitfit you should just leave her.
I don't think your marriage is doomed. Work on fixing yourself, don't be an asshole to your wife and see how it goes. The worst that can happen is that you'll split up a few years now in a much better place.
tangman 11y ago
I would recommend taking a deep breath, and stop treating conversations as a power struggle. Chill out. Then you won't "freeze" so much. The weak struggle for control because they don't have it. The strong just stand their ground, unshakable.
Just stand by your opinion. Was that a real opinion or were you just trying to say anything to make fun of her? Have real opinions, stand by them.
If you snap back at her, get defensive or angry, or demand that she stop saying such remarks, that reveals your weakness to her words. You don't have to "take charge" over her, you only have to be in charge of yourself. She will change on her own when her bitching no longer produces the desired result.
mrust 11y ago
First, you picked a fight where it wasn't necessary.
You are trying to use logic (separating needs and wants) but she is operating on emotions (a pedicure would fulfill the emptiness inside me).
Your response was neither cocky (building yourself up) nor funny. That is what killed the mood. You could have used "Yeah, you're right it's important that you look good for me" either as the initial argument or in the recovery. This frames her actions as trying to please you.
It would be 10x worse if you apologized or asked her what's wrong, or tried to negotiate, or showered her with gifts/affection. Sounds like you are not doing that so you have a solid foundation. Right?
If you want to tease her, you need to do push-pull more effectively. That means say something nice then change your mind, then go in another direction. You don't have to wait for her to respond. You are saying these things because they amuse you. Avoid logic.
In the bigger picture, it sounds like she wants to be the man in the relationship. If she is snapping at you, taking digs, and wants to be in charge then the relationship will honestly be harder to recover than just going out to find a new girl.
Ok, I will give you one tactic you can use in the future:
Do I look gay to you?
Do I look gay?
I must look gay. Is it my gay hair? Did I develop a gay lisp?
[keep going with this until you run out of agree/amplify shit to say]
Well, I have to tell you that you are very confused because I am not gay, but you are acting like a man and it's not attractive to me.
Bang, the hamster has spun out of its wheel. Now any time she patronizes you over text, just send back a "gay" response. She snaps at you just say "gay" and walk away.
You may have to slightly adapt the responses but the structure should remain. The psychology behind this is a state break followed by word association of the word "gay" with unfeminine behavior - yes, this doesn't make any logical sense - and then callback to trigger the association.
[deleted] 11y ago
That's what it is. She is trying to act like the man in the relationship, but she gets offended easily and draws the line first or uses her parents as a scapegoat.
If I call her out for having an attitude, I get "You sound like my father". She had an attitude when she got home today, so I said something about it. She punishes me for shit her parents said to her and I told her that's not ok.
I got into it with her about both issues and I basically bitched out again. Everything I said was spun into her reality and counter arguments. According to her i wasn't joking about the pedicure, and she didn't have an attitude when she got home today. Our resolve was to just be mindful of what we say to each other (aka I didn't get anything resolved for myself, so we will cross this bridge at least one more time before it's all said and done).
It's not just a LTR it's a marriage, and we're flirting with separation. I left that out of the main plot on purpose since some people tend to be a little softer on that kind of subject. She wanted "space" and loved me but wasn't "in love" with me. It reeked of an affair. I had a weekend away after a month of sulking, came back, and she was ready to work on the marriage. Complete 180 because she was worried I was out with other women. She still expresses concern/fear that I may leave her from time to time. I'm concerned that I might not feel like its worth it to stick around for a wife that thought about flaking out on me... And what would it be for? For me to stick around and be her doormat?
I'm past the point of worrying if she did cheat on me. That is a strange feeling to not have anymore. During that weekend away from her, I killed a lot of myself that loved her.
mrust 11y ago
Yeah, I was going to ask about the depth of the LTR. I've got some other comments:
You are punishing her for being feminine (getting pedicure) and rewarding her for being masculine (using logic). If that is a pattern, it is very counter-productive.
Yes, she controls the frame. In this situation it is extremely hard to use things like Cocky+Funny effectively. She will spin any sort of disagreement into a conflict.
Again, you are picking an unnecessary fight. If she comes home with an attitude, just let it wash off you. You are in your own space, with a big grin, and are amused by her childish antics.
I also get the sense that you are protecting her ego. You are stopping yourself from stooping down to her level because you still feel the need to protect her. I would also take the time to examine her parents' relationship especially since she is bringing it up. Is she using that as a model? Was the father beta? Has she accused him of being abusive? Is she filling the same role as her mother?
Some final thoughts:
Zackcid 11y ago
This is what happens when she thinks she's safe. Being in a LTR, she doesn't have to worry anymore about upping her game and being pleasant. "She's already got you, after all".
Now, me thinks it's time you work on your alpha/masculine identity (seriously, it seems like she's lost respect for you). I get the feeling she doesn't see you as a big, strong daddy anymore. Don't forget that women only date up and if she doesn't adore and respect you anymore, there's no need to keep this abusive relationship going man.
You should adopt a new mindset. Don't take her seriously. If she gives you that crap, just giggle and dismiss it like if it were a child who was telling you that. There's absolutely nothing she can do about it. She can't tell you to be more serious and boring. If she does, look at her weird and tell her "you're not gonna tell me what to do". She sounds sick, she's at an advanced stage in her psychological illness.
haxorroxor 11y ago
With a smirk say, "Calm the fuck down."
[deleted] 11y ago
or
kick6 11y ago
You find the behavior unacceptable, and it makes you not want to talk to her.
This sounds like a good place to start...
Your options are either to say this bluntly, or twist it into a joke. Either way, you're failing shit-tests every time because you're unwilling to risk the fight. Risk the fight, bro.