Is it possible to seduce a woman honestly? | Ask TRP

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AllOrDeath

Posted 11y ago in Uncategorized - Permalink - Locked - 728 Views

A quote relevant to this discussion. It's from a fiction book, so it's not some cited source or whatever bullshit, but it pretty much summarizes this exchange and what you're getting wrong about it all:

Breeze: Well, let us begin, then. First, you must understand that Soothing is about more than just Allomancy. It's about the delicate and noble art of manipulation.

Vin: Noble indeed.

Breeze: Ah, you sound like one of them.

Vin: Them who?

Breeze: Them everyone else. You saw how that skaa gentleman treated me? People don't like us, my dear. The idea of someone who can play with their emotions, who can 'mystically' get them to do certain things, makes them uncomfortable. What they do not realize—and what you must realize—is that manipulating others is something that all people do. In fact, manipulation is at the core of our social interaction.

Breeze: Think about it. What is a man doing when he seeks the affection of a young lady? Why, he is trying to manipulate her to regard him favorably. What happens when two old friends sit down for a drink? They tell stories, trying to impress each other. Life as a human being is about posturing and influence. This isn't a bad thing—in fact, we depend upon it. These interactions teach us how to respond to others.

Breeze: The difference between Soothers and regular people is that we are aware of what we're doing. We also have a slight . . . advantage. But, is it really that much more 'powerful' than having a charismatic personality or a fine set of teeth? I think not.

Point being: Literally everything about social interaction involves manipulation. Whether you're buying a girl a box of chocolates or ignoring her phone calls, the motivation is the same: You want her to want you. They're both manipulative, one of them is just the kind of manipulative that fits into your own moral narrative.

From your other comments it's pretty clear that your form of manipulation is not getting the results you'd like. In that case, your options are twofold: Stop socializing with people (which it seems has been your current solution from what I've read elsewhere in the comments), or change your approach. Which doesn't necessarily mean following TRP theory or anything. Just stop doing what doesn't work and try something else and see if that does work.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

It's amazing how everyone who comments here thinks they have the epiphany producing answer.

I've thought about that exact perspective many times. I agree with that exact perspective too. The thing is: 1. I am terrible at manipulating people 2. I don't like doing it and 3. I hate how necessary it is. That's why I withdraw and if it weren't for feeling lonely I'd be completely fine with it. But since I do get lonely I'm not sure there is a solution.

And I've never met someone who could really manipulate me. I pretty much am the same way to everyone even if some people I like more than others. All I see is other people getting manipulated at times and it all seems so obvious and stupid. So I can't relate to this stuff.

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[deleted] 11y ago

It's amazing how everyone who comments here thinks they have the epiphany producing answer.

Nobody here thinks that. It's that you asked a question with a flawed premise and people are correcting you, but you remain unmoved. There is a difference between the two.

I am terrible at manipulating people

Probably because as you've said elsewhere, you almost never leave your room. Practice makes perfect. Grind that social skill IRL instead of your mining level in runescape.

I don't like doing it

You've been doing it (albeit poorly) throughout this thread in your attempts to frame the issue in a light where you're correct or the majority is ganging up on you. You like doing it, you just don't notice when you do it and you're bad at it (as addressed above).

I hate how necessary it is

That's all well and good, but that doesn't mean that "manipulation" and "dishonesty" are the same thing. My girlfriend bought me cookies on Valentine's day. I loved 'em. She was manipulating me to continue regarding her favorably. I bought her a video game for us to play together. I was manipulating her to spend more time with me. Both of us were fully aware these were the goals of these things, because neither of us is stupid.

You have a very flawed understanding of what dishonesty is.

I've never met someone who could really manipulate me.

I mentioned the Dunning-Kruger effect previously elsewhere in the thread, but I feel it's now necessary to reiterate and provide a quote and citation:

"When people are incompetent in the strategies they adopt to achieve success and satisfaction, they suffer a dual burden: Not only do they reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the ability to realize it. Instead, like Mr. Wheeler, they are left with the erroneous impression they are doing just fine." (Source: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/20/the-anosognosics-dilemma-1/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0)

My advice for you would be to either let go of the illusory sense of superiority you hold and recognize you're human alongside everyone else and prone to the same behavioral patterns, or to remain silent on the subject, because holy shit you're losing imaginary internet points faster than Khalid bin Bargash lost the Anglo-Zanzibar war.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Nobody here thinks that. It's that you asked a question with a flawed premise and people are correcting you, but you remain unmoved. There is a difference between the two.

Prove it.

Probably because as you've said elsewhere, you almost never leave your room. Practice makes perfect. Grind that social skill IRL instead of your mining level in runescape.

Never worked and I don't have the will to nor the ability probably. The existence of social skills, in general, is repugnant I think.

That's all well and good, but that doesn't mean that "manipulation" and "dishonesty" are the same thing. My girlfriend bought me cookies on Valentine's day. I loved 'em. She was manipulating me to continue regarding her favorably. I bought her a video game for us to play together. I was manipulating her to spend more time with me. Both of us were fully aware these were the goals of these things, because neither of us is stupid.

But you never say that is the goal. That's the dishonesty part.

I mentioned the Dunning-Kruger effect previously elsewhere in the thread, but I feel it's now necessary to reiterate and provide a quote and citation:

You keep mentioning that. Why?

My advice for you would be to either let go of the illusory sense of superiority you hold and recognize you're human alongside everyone else and prone to the same behavioral patterns, or to remain silent on the subject, because holy shit you're losing imaginary internet points faster than Khalid bin Bargash lost the Anglo-Zanzibar war.

I don't care about imaginary internet points.

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[deleted] 11y ago

Prove it.

Already did.

The existence of social skills, in general, is repugnant I think.

...Oh.

You just saved me a lot of time because now I can just link you here and stop bothering with the rest of this.

You wanna know how to get a girlfriend without knowing how to talk to people. Talking to people is how you get people to stay around you. Can't help those who don't want help.

Could you do everyone else on this sr a favor and edit that line into your OP? Would help a lot of people out.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Why did you link to that?

I think the fact that social skills exist shows people want or need to be manipulated.

[deleted] 11y ago

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AllOrDeath 11y ago

I did. You haven't read what I wrote.

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[deleted] 11y ago

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AllOrDeath 11y ago

Care to explain and help me rather than just criticize?

[deleted] 11y ago

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AllOrDeath 11y ago

Faking it is a part of it. I mean "fake it till you make it" is a popular piece of advice here. And a lot of the things that are suggested like being frugal with validation is arbitrary and have nothing really to do with making oneself a better person and completely to do with adapting to take-it-for-granted nature of others.

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[deleted] 11y ago

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AllOrDeath 11y ago

Yeah, but you're thinking it's a lie. It's not.

I think this is debatable. I'm fine using it as a tactic to alter one's internal belief systems, but when it's used to change how one actually interacts directly then it is just fakery.

What I mean, more specifically, if one fakes that one is worth an attractive woman's time then that's fine imo. You are talking about your own internal framework and I think it's reasonable to assume, even an ugly man, can be valuable to a high SMV woman. This is distinct from a person purposely negging a girl because it works on some primitive social evolutionary psychology level and where it is completely unnatural to his sentiments and way of socializing and come from no where other than reading these sorts of sites and trying to act in a specific way to get a specific result. Does the distinction make sense?

When you stop letting people take advantage of you, even though you FEEL one way about it , you still took the action of them not be allowed to take advantage of you.

This doesn't really have much to do with what I am talking about. It seems there is commonly an assumption here that either you are getting exactly what you want from someone or they are using you. My experience has been that flat out indifference is far more common.

When you agree and amplify a shit test based on asking guys here and it's not your original response, you still passed the test. SMV went up. It was real.

This goes to what I was saying. It's not a real reaction. It's a fabricated response. I mean it's not uncommon to read posters here say that much of this stuff is about emulating a high status man as much as it is to become one.

It's not arbitrary. It DOES have to do with bettering yourself. People-pleasing is a character defect, not an asset.

It is arbitrary because you being frugal with validation is all about satisfying other people unless it's natural to you to be so. It's done to people please by appearing to not being willing to people please and the need to do that is entirely due to another person's perceptions. Because people don't respect you unless you show your fangs. But that's not an inherent need to navigate anything except the psychology of others.

Like I said, you didn't get it, and I would go reread.

I've read it multiple times and this subreddit and different sites for years. I still have the exact same disagreements since when I started for the most part. Much of what one reads is just reiterations of the same ideas.

[deleted] 11y ago

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AllOrDeath 11y ago

That was a very interesting scene. Thanks for sharing it. I've never seen the movie, but I may check it out.

It can't be fake. If someone gives you instructions on how to build a bomb, and you build one, it's not a fake bomb because they were not your instructions.

That's really not rational.

I agree ultimately in a definitional way. Anything that you can do and choose to do is you. That, however, doesn't take into consideration natural tendencies or what is naturally enjoyed. For example, and I am going to purposely use a non-romantic analogy at first so that biases about RP vs BP or alpha vs beta behavior don't get involved. Let's talk about careers. Imagine a person who works at McDonalds, but wants to be a CEO of a fortune 500 company. Now either this person has the ability to do so or doesn't. If he does then it's a matter of a bit of luck and whether he actually does and if he doesn't it simply doesn't matter. But whether he can become one or not and whether he does become one or not doesn't change the desire and the underlying psychological reasons that sort of thing is desirable. It's still who he is that wants to be a CEO even though he is Mc Donald's worker and if he can he was just as able (assuming he didnt get fired from the McDs job or something) to do either. But the personal satisfaction, the drive to do one vs the other and the natural comfort in either of those roles is not the same. We can look at TRP stuff and alpha vs beta through similar lenses. Does that make sense?

TRP doesn't say , "hire hookers to stand around you so you appear preselected." It says, "Get preselection. "

It does say often to pretend, by what you say and how you act, that you already are preselected when you are not. Do you deny this?

It doesn't say "pretend to pass shit tests. " It says, "This is how you pass shit tests".

This is more agreeable than the previous example, but it still has to do with an amount of faking and again like in the analogy I used above one may not enjoy acting in a way that allows one to pass shit tests. And this can produce real psychological tension between what one ought to do and what one wants to do.

No. It's tough love. It's realizing that what you think they wanted doesn't matter. It's not about them, it's about you.

I don't understand how what you are saying here is related to being frugal with validation.

If you want to make headway then it may be time to consider that you have some apparently deep-seeded beliefs that are really standing in the way of you swallowing the pill. That's ok!

Dude, believe me I'm trying in whatever way I can right now. I'm so psychological beat up and fucked up I am seriously considering suicide, but I am trying to find a way to leave in peace, do good and have my needs met. I don't know how and I'm quite desperate for help to be honest.

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redpillshadow 11y ago

I still have the exact same disagreements since when I started for the most part.

Of course you do. Cause what TRP states does require work. What you believe doesn't. You want to be loved for you without even trying to better yourself. You believe in the easy way.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I mean I responded point by point and you say 3 sentences. You are trying to over ride the details with these vague all encompassing assumptions. I guess that sort of stuff works on women and most people cause they are stupid, but not me. If you can show me how my actual ideas are flawed I'd be happy to change my mind.

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[deleted] 11y ago

Theoretical question for you: What if tomorrow I decided to live with the morals of Jesus? Every time I was faced with a decision, I'd simply do whatever Jesus would do and carry on.

After some years of this behavior, I would exhibit the behavior of Jesus without needing to particularly think about it. It would be a habit and my personality. To any observer, I would appear to be exactly like Jesus and for all purposes it would be true.

At what point does it cross from an act to who you are?

Reasoning on that point may help you resolve your cognitive dissonance.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I definitely agree with this both in how the Jesus example and in the alpha male idea which is what inspired this thread. Part of my difficulties are emerging from how to handle the interim stages before I actually am that which I am trying to be and the another part is wondering about the merits of the actual transformation I am undertaking. There are aspects of being alpha like taking my physical health seriously and lifting which are undeniably positive. Then there are other ways like demonstrating pre-selection which I don't currently have so trying to display that would be falsehood, but even if I did I wouldn't want to display it because of certain morals I have.

In the end I need to start doing what you are saying though. This is not deniable.

j0hnan0n 11y ago

The short answer to your question is yes. But it might take you more time to get used to the RP mode of thought. There's going to be some growing pains before you get used to it. Look at it this way if it helps: the point isn't to fabricate a different, better person and sell yourself as that person. The point is to present and highlight your strengths, while actively working on your weaknesses. The easiest example is your body itself; if you're not muscular, you don't lie and say you are. Just lift and workout towards the build you want to have.

Hope that helps.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

That does help a bit. Thank you.

j0hnan0n 11y ago

No problem. Walk on!

stoic_style 11y ago

You can get a women without lying, she may be slutty or looking for a beta provider. Is that what you want?

You can get a girl you really want without lying, but the truth has to be what hits all her interests: your SMV without lying has to be high enough for her.

That being said, TRP is amoral. It is a means to an end - maximizing your value in the SMP. If you can't accept that then TRP isn't for you.

Furthermore, do you think girls are telling you the truth? Why would you want to play this game with more limitations than them?

Read this.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

You can get a women without lying, she may be slutty or looking for a beta provider. Is that what you want?

What I want doesn't preclude either of those things.

You can get a girl you really want without lying, but the truth has to be what hits all her interests: your SMV without lying has to be high enough for her.

I have a SMV of 0.

That being said, TRP is amoral. It is a means to an end - maximizing your value in the SMP. If you can't accept that then TRP isn't for you.

It's amoral cause you say it's amoral?

Furthermore, do you think girls are telling you the truth? Why would you want to play this game with more limitations than them?

They don't tell the truth and it's because I want to escape the game all together.

I read the link. I'm not sure what I was supposed to realize from it. Seems like a pretty basic explanation of the contractual nature of how humans apply morality.

stoic_style 11y ago

In the link it states that TRP is amoral. It isn't just me saying it's amoral.

You have an SMV of 0, want to 'escape the game', and generally seem resistant to change. I'm not sure TRP is for you.

If you truly want to do better you should stop discussing and just do something (even if you don't entirely understand it), do lots of things, then come to TRP when you're ready.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I know about the claims of TRP being amoral and the justifications. I still disagree with it regardless of who said it or how it's put.

Maybe, TRP isn't for me and it seems life isn't either. I'm trying to find a way to live and get what I want out of life, but it seems impossible.

alreadyredschool 11y ago

Yes

AllOrDeath 11y ago

How?

alreadyredschool 11y ago

Have you ever had a female friend who had a crush on you? Seduced.

Just talk to them, be honest but there is no reason to be rude.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

It's SOOOOO rare for a girl to be attracted to me that I'm pretty sure at this rate I will die a virgin. I'd like to prevent that.

TooMuchToDoo 11y ago

Buddy. Dude.

This community is here to help you. Seriously. But you have to be willing to change. You've been relentless in stating that you can't change your current views because that is the way you're wired, yet you say "Woe is me" type comments such as the one above. Why did you say that? I don't expect you to come out and agree with me, but imo you're looking for pity, and that's not what this community is about.

If you want to get laid, you've got to embrace the fact that the world does not exist on your terms. you must adapt to the world. For things to change for you, YOU have to change. Sappy quote, I know, but it has all the truth in the world. Best wishes.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I agree most are trying to help me and I am grateful for those who are. If I seem relentlessly opposed to the advice it's because most of what has been discussed here are all already things I've thought about and have resulted in me being stuck. I think people here have this idea that they will write one comment with some RP truth and that the person will have an epiphany. I wish it were that easy in my case, but I'm not giving up trying to find some way to resolve things.

I realize in the end I have to change and that the world doesn't exist on my terms. All of this is an attempt at to come to terms with that.

anonlymouse 11y ago

Absolutely. She's expecting to be seduced, so you can be quite open about it - just don't give her a play by play of what you're doing. The point of TRP is to be someone that she wants to be seduced by.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Yea, I agree with the last part, but I definitely think even the highest SMV guys from an objective standpoint can fuck up if they don't socialize correctly. And I mean what is socializing, at the end of the day, other than successfully appealing to people's biases?

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aguy01 11y ago

Yea, but she will be lower SMV than what you would get by being what she wants.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I can't get anyone though.

aguy01 11y ago

Then read TRP and become the man she wants.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I have for a while. I can't internalize it. It's just not me.

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aguy01 11y ago

Keep doing what you're doing and you'll keep getting what you're getting.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

That's such a stupid response.

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MelodyMyst 11y ago

No, it is exactly the right response. You are just to obtuse to know it.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Cool.

aguy01 11y ago

Sounds like you've got it all figured out.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I figured that you are a shallow thinker and a waste of time.

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aguy01 11y ago

Haha, good luck.

[deleted] 11y ago

Why is it a stupid response? If you can't get a woman they aren't the problem, you are the common denominator.

The whole point of this community is it's anchor in self development, acting alpha for you would be dishonest because if you can't get a woman you obviously aren't. It's entirely possble to change how you look, how you think and how you interact with people. That's the basis of TRP, and if you mould yourself into a better person, that's attractive. If you have self respect enough to not just submit yourself to a girls whims and wait on her hand and foot, that's attractive. If you turn yourself from a pudgy, effeminate dude to a lean, muscular man, that's attractive. And then, when you project yourself as high quality, it won't be a lie. It will be the truth.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I was watching a lecture once about over population and the speaker opened by telling a tale of this particular species of deer. Males of this species impressed females by their size of their antlers as it was both a sign of fitness and useful in fights. Over the generations the size of the antlers grew bigger and bigger as those deer with the biggest antlers were selected for. Eventually, they become huge and by a stroke of luck an environmental change occurred which effected the abundance of a particular food supply that was rich in a nutrient essential for the bones of the males to be able to withstand the weight of those antlers. The result was the species became extinct. Now part of it was the fact that the food supply was altered, but another big part of it was just that they followed their biological imperative too damn well. Other deers with less grand antlers were able to survive, but not these species. What's to say the same thing can't happen to humans? I mean the alpha male greed of let's say oil companies may ruin the ecosystem for more than just humans, no? You probably think this is a crazy off the wall tangent, but it's very relevant to the idea of what happens when one must adhere to a biological imperative without any room for deviation. And it is following the biological imperatives of men and women which is at the heart of TRP.

In other words, there ought to be more considered other than what is attractive even if I take away the personal aspect of this. And to be clear I agree with some stuff. Like I could get into better shape. The personality stuff is a little more debatable.

[deleted] 11y ago

The thing about this is, on a tangible level it doesn't really matter. If we assume that the parallel with the deer that you brought up is a 100% correlation, and that the more perfectly we follow our biology the closer we come to extinction (am I following your reaosning accurately?), what does it matter to us right now? If I choose to become celibate in response to it, it will make no difference. The human instinct is to be greedy, the preservation of the self is more important than the preservation of the group, outside of family, every time. So the only thing I can rely on is the knowlege that if I willingly drop out of the race someone will fill in for me, so in this scenario our extinction is all but guaranteed, unless there is a major paradigm shift in the way we think.

And so, if it's inevitable, you might as well enjoy the ride down, right? The only things tangible in life are what you can experience yourself. So you might as well alpha up and enjoy the best bits in life because if we're doomed either way at least you have a warm bed before the world explodes.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

It's not inevitable unless masses of people think it is. We do have minds that are capable of evaluating things beyond self interest, ego and emotions. We can look at things objectively. The only thing that needs to happen is, well, for people to be willing to do it and then do it. And I think the world would be a beautiful place if we did. That ideal is the most worthwhile thing ever. Even though I want a woman to the point of suicide, that ideal guides my actions even toward my grave I suppose.

A more selfless caring world is possible. I'd like to at least try and make that happen. I'd be happy to dedicate my life to it. I'd just like to get laid a bit while I do.

RedPillington 11y ago

ought to be

that is an illogical concept. you have an illogical view of reality.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Not really. I know what you are trying to get at, I think. Ought is fictitious and worthless, what matters is how things are. What you may fail to realize is that ought can be very useful to get things from one state of how they are to another state. It's useful in conceiving a different way to do things.

In that particular example though I was using it more as a way of talking about what is real. Our biological imperative as a species is to survive and reproduce no? So if following alpha behavior so well can make us fail in that goal then it's fair to say we ought not do that. So in that context I was using ought more like in "If you build a bridge you ought to take into account torque" than "The sky ought to always have a rainbow because I think it's prettier."

MelodyMyst 11y ago

Maybe it is just your confrontational, argumentative personality that defeats you. If so, change your personality. Maybe you are just butt-ugly. If so, you are OOL. Maybe you are the male version of a hamplanet. See: OOL. Go to the gym.

If you are not having any luck convincing women to sleep with you you should take a look a that you actually bring to the table.

What do you bring to the table? Are you fun to be with? It doesn't sound like it from your posts and comments here. You sound like the kind of guy who wants to over analyze every little thing. The kind of guy who could talk his way out of a winning lottery ticket in hand.

When girls are looking to get laid they are looking to have some kind of fun, first and foremost. If you are not fun, you are out in the cold.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Maybe it is just your confrontational, argumentative personality that defeats you.

A lot of people don't like this facet of me, but it's necessary to get at the truth in these matters I think. Honestly I think the repulsion to this facet of me has more to do with people being egotistical with their beliefs than me being so. I am merely doubting and asking questions. It's other people who are insulting me and or trying to appeal to emotions.

If you are not having any luck convincing women to sleep with you you should take a look a that you actually bring to the table.

I am very willing to do that.

What do you bring to the table? Are you fun to be with? It doesn't sound like it from your posts and comments here. You sound like the kind of guy who wants to over analyze every little thing. The kind of guy who could talk his way out of a winning lottery ticket in hand.

I am fun when I am not engaged in something in intellectual conversations like this. I don't get into these things with people unless it's necessary. I learned that the hard way.

When girls are looking to get laid they are looking to have some kind of fun, first and foremost. If you are not fun, you are out in the cold.

Again, I believe I am a lot of fun. I'm more fun than most imo. I'm the sort of guy who will be out with a group of people and it's 6 am and everyone is tired and I'll just be thinking "Why aren't we hitting up another spot?" My zest for that sort of stuff is much higher than most people's imo. I also joke around a lot, am able to talk about anything (in a very different way from what is being shown here) and am very genuinely interested in others. Doesn't seem to be enough.

MelodyMyst 11y ago

What you think you see when you look in the mirror is not what you are showing the ret of the world. Back to the drawing board for you my friend.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

You are using this very specific encounter with me to judge my whole personality. It's a fallacy.

MelodyMyst 11y ago

I'm reporting on what I observe. If that is not what you want people to see then you should be showing something different. May I ask how old you are?

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I'm 25.

We are having a certain type of discussion and I am disagreeing with the merits of an entire online community in their main hub. Of course, I am going to seem argumentative and disagreeable if I stick to my guns. But I have to get to the logical ends here. It's the only way is to continue on in hopes I can find some way to come to terms with all these issues.

MelodyMyst 11y ago

Ok, first off. Somewhere in this mess I saw you say you were considering suicide. You need to immediately seek professional help. Looking for answers anywhere on the internet is a wrong headed idea.

No forum on reddit or anywhere else can give you the help you need.

Second.... Something my brother toLd me a long time ago that made sense... You have to get out of it to get into it. I had to think about it for awhile before it made sense. When it did my life changed overnight. Get out of your head and get into real life.

Third. Humans in general, and women in specific ARE RARELY LOGICAL. You can try to keep applying shit you learned in school but will continue to be frustrated by your lack of progress until you get this into your head.

Fourth. Why do you want to have sex? Seems like a stupid question but think about it for a moment... Why do you want to have sex? Are you looking for companionship? Sex is not companionship. Are you looking for validation? Do you want to have children? Your honest answers to these question will help lead you in a direction to get what you want.

If you are just looking to get off then go see a hooker. Get your nut and get back to work building yourself into the best you you can be.

Your biggest enemy is TIME. You only have so much of it and you are wasting it by trying to force something to happen when there are much more efficient ways of going about it. Hence, the hooker, prostitute, professional escort. You pay, she fucks, you nut, go your own way.

Simple.

There is so much more to learn and experience in life and giving up on it at such a young age is fucking insane.

If you would like to continue this, PM me and I will try to lay out a few more things. Mind you, I have a business to run so I myself do not have oodles of time to spend arguing about semantics, logic, fallacies, and other bullshit. If you want perspective, I can give that.

But first and foremost, go get professional help, from a male therapist. That is your first stop.

Cheers

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Ok, first off. Somewhere in this mess I saw you say you were considering suicide. You need to immediately seek professional help. Looking for answers anywhere on the internet is a wrong headed idea.

I am getting professional help. It doesn't help.

Second.... Something my brother toLd me a long time ago that made sense... You have to get out of it to get into it. I had to think about it for awhile before it made sense. When it did my life changed overnight. Get out of your head and get into real life.

I try to get out there and I fail which just makes me more reclusive.

Third. Humans in general, and women in specific ARE RARELY LOGICAL. You can try to keep applying shit you learned in school but will continue to be frustrated by your lack of progress until you get this into your head.

Yea, I don't know how to adapt or respect humans cause of this.

Fourth. Why do you want to have sex? Seems like a stupid question but think about it for a moment... Why do you want to have sex? Are you looking for companionship? Sex is not companionship. Are you looking for validation? Do you want to have children? Your honest answers to these question will help lead you in a direction to get what you want.

I just want to experience it, but it has to be because they like me. There's nothing else I want more. A hooker won't work cause that's for money.

If you would like to continue this, PM me and I will try to lay out a few more things. Mind you, I have a business to run so I myself do not have oodles of time to spend arguing about semantics, logic, fallacies, and other bullshit. If you want perspective, I can give that.

I welcome any advice or help.

MetacognitiveMan 11y ago

Yes. Be a man of few words. Be a man of action.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

What if you are naturally talkative?

-1

RedPillington 11y ago

what if you are naturally someone who was born without pants? are pants lying?

AllOrDeath 11y ago

It's funny you should mention that because I do think it's a sign of a species wide immaturity that we need clothes to cover ourselves. I think we'd be much more than we are now if we could handle people just being naked on the street universally. Clothes obviously serve a function for warmth and protection, but the emotional need to be covered I think does get at a need in humans to perceive ourselves differently from what we actually are for some reason.

-1

niczar 11y ago

You were doing well until now, but you've pushed it too far. Obvious troll is obvious.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I'm actually being completely serious. Part of becoming civilized has been to make the naked human body taboo (at least in US culture) to a certain extent. And correlative to that we makes sexual acts taboo and different sorts of sexual relations taboo and I think it's all culturally proprietary nonsense and a sign of species wide immaturity. I'm honestly not sure why this makes you think I'm a troll.

MetacognitiveMan 11y ago

You can come up with hypotheticals all day. The fact is, you have the power to choose what type of person you want to be and become him.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Well, I am naturally talkative so it's not a hypothetical at all.

I don't enjoy not talking. Even when I've tried it briefly and gotten some success (sort of) I'm bursting to say a lot more.

-1

SmokesQuantity 11y ago

It's more likely a learned behavior than it is, just-the-way-you-are. I find myself having to practice being more social and talkative, does that mean when I am that I'm pretending to be something I'm not?

There is a proper time and place for being talkative, no? Being quiet during quiet time is hardly a lie.

We go to school to learn new ideas and skills and practical ways of using them, just because I wasn't previously putting them to use due to ignorance doesn't make the newly squired knowledge/skill fake.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Eh, I won an award for most talkative when I was kindergarten. I think it's who I am.

I mean what you are saying is certainly true, but it's a difficult thing. We can learn and edit ourselves, but there are limits both in terms of what we can accomplish and what we can happily accomplish. And often it seems completely arbitrary. Like who cares if I'm talking a bit more than average? Does that make me undate-able?

Idk, it just seems that my behavior makes me pussy repellant at the end of the day.

-1

RedPillington 11y ago

Eh, I won an award for most talkative when I was kindergarten. I think it's who I am.

i used to throw shit and scream at people all throughout my childhood into adulthood. i don't now, because i'm obviously a big fat liar.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

You know that's not the same thing.

RedPillington 11y ago

how do you know it's not? our childhood environments caused us to have certain behaviors as children. any behavior you have, you call it part of yourself. when you look at another person, you're able to recognize that their behaviors are not an intrinsic part of them.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

You are writing as if genetics don't influence or dictate personality. As if we are blank slates and environment does everything to us.

SmokesQuantity 11y ago

You aren't listening or you just aren't understanding.

you don't have to be born with a predisposition to some art in order to train and eventually be a master of it.

There are times when talkative is useful and ones where it isn't. Who is in charge, you or your mouth?

If you wanna tread through life withy the attitude of, "that's jus who I am"...good luck.

I was raised by a pretty angry father, one could say it's "natural" for me to express my feelings by yelling and growling- that is something I have to unlearn and I don't think it means I'm being untrue to "myself".

I am who I decide to be.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

you don't have to be born with a predisposition to some art in order to train and eventually be a master of it.

I'm not sure that's true. I think the only way to truly get to the top in any field is to have some natural talent and disposition toward it.

I try to alter myself in ways as I socialize and it never works out. And part of what I am saying is that because I've tried in different ways and it doesn't work out it must be because of my nature. I don't believe we can control everything about ourselves. I don't really believe we choose to be who we are. We just are and we spend our lives working with the elements in us to try and do whatever it is we want to do. There's psychological research that seems to back that idea up.

SmokesQuantity 11y ago

hahahahahaha. Good luck buddy.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Why is that funny?

TooMuchToDoo 11y ago

To address a problem you've brought up a couple times in this thread, I strongly advise continue reading the material in this community. Through osmosis, and a desire to better yourself, you will naturally absorb the mindset that you've been looking to internalize.

You've mentioned having trouble internalizing. The best advice I can give you is to "unplug" yourself from everything that is detrimental to your cause (in this case developing the mindset of a better man) and plugging yourself into everything that will help you along. This ESPECIALLY includes who you interact with on a day-to-day basis; just remember that you are who your friends and family are.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I have been reading it for years. There's nothing in my life that makes me plugged in. I sit in front of my computer, play video games and read and then sometimes try and socialize. That's it. It's just my nature that keeps reoccurring.

TheSKSpecial 11y ago

By sitting in front of your computer, playing video games, you're still plugged into things that are detrimental to your cause. You're wasting the time you could be spending improving yourself.

If you want to become the better man you think you have to lie to be, you need to get out there and do things that make you that man. There are no shortcuts.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

It's not necessary to have a perfect life to get laid though. Plenty of shitty people get laid often. My goals are just for that right now. The rest is a bit too much right now for me.

[deleted] 11y ago

[deleted]

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I'm sure that's part of it.

RedPillington 11y ago

spending too much time on a computer alters the way your brain functions in a way that makes interacting with reality more difficult. stop using the computer unless you absolutely have to. exert self-control. look at all the people here who give a shit about you. wake the fuck up.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Yea, you are right. I am getting out more recently. I've started to go out alone for instance on weekends and start to talk to people in bars and stuff. It's difficult to make a connection, but it is I'm taking small steps to be more social.

Perhaps this question will be slightly ironic, but do you have any resources where I can read about how using a computer a lot alters the brain?

RedPillington 11y ago

perhaps "alters the brain" is not the best way to say it. when someone meditates for a long time, they develop neural pathways. if you play piano for a long time, you develop neural pathways. so it is with computers.

the neural pathways developed with extensive computer time are not positive for social engagement, because they are rigid (social situations are fluid), completely logical (social interaction is intuitive), and passive (social situations are active).

if you spend a lot of time with computers, you brain stops automatically making the right faces at people. spend more time with people, your brain starts automatically making the right faces. using the computer too much sets you up for a difficult time talking to people, because you never use your face or body language or tonality to communicate, and they're a huge part of communication.

i don't have great sources, but a cursory googling at least turns up evidence that you should severely limit the time:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/778353

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/overload-of-screen-time-causes-depression-in-children-8786826.html

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/33/32/13081.abstract?sid=6b55cb00-2960-48a5-a064-f9c8ad4eaf7f

http://www.rense.com/general33/much.htm

you can use f.lux to mitigate some of the effect of computer use at night.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

That's interesting stuff. I do wonder if it is causation or just correlation. Maybe, people who spend time in front of the computer are already depressed or predisposed to depression and it just so happens they gravitate to computers for whatever reason. Thanks for the links and suggestions though.

TooMuchToDoo 11y ago

The other guys beat me to the punch, but what I was referring to was not being "plugged in" and "unplugging yourself" in the sense of The Matrix, I mean "unplug" as in eliminate those things from your life, and "plug yourself into" as in bring new things into your life.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

O I see. I misunderstood then. Yes, there are better things I can do with myself certainly. It's very difficult when I get so depressed that I won't even open the fridge to eat because it feels like too much. It's probably something most people can't relate to, but this is who I am. I know I really ought to exercise and diet and engage in interesting and fulfilling hobbies and all that, but I'm in such a rut that it feels impossible. I believe something about my enjoyment of life needs to improve. I need to have some source of joy or happiness which will propel me into a proper self improvement path. And I know my lack of success with women is probably the single most sorrow producing aspect of my life so naturally I look to fix that.

RedPillington 11y ago

your description of yourself matches clinical depression, and you should pursue a psychiatric evaluation. if you're having trouble, ask a friend or family member to force you to make the appointment and drive you there.

[deleted] 11y ago

[deleted]

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I suppose I will check out /r/GetMotivated or something to try and be able to propel myself. It's certain that something needs to change in my currently useless and miserable existence. I guess, no one will care until I have enough value to make them care.

648262 11y ago

I've read through some of the discussions you are having in this thread. You're having issues with a very simple concept that is often preached around here. It is:

Fake it until you make it.

As an example: It means you should pretend to be confident when you are not, so that you can experience the results of a confident man and actually be confident.

Or it means to act like this one girl you are interested in is not so interesting because there are billions of other women available to you.

It is not a requirement to do these things to attract women.

But it makes it easier in the beginning. Your goal should be to be a confident man who other people find attractive and you can spend time building up yourself to be this. Once you reach a level of attractiveness that you are comfortable with you can start to approach women you are interested in. Part of the game is to practice your social skills with women so you'll probably fail a bit in the start, but it's just practice.

Good luck.

PS: read Models by Mark Manson. It's exactly what you're looking for.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Yea, I think I am going to make another question where I specify a person being low SMV. To say just increase your SMV doesn't apply to me cause I can't.

I am currently reading that book. I am done with part 1. I think some of it is good and some of it is contradicting over generalized bs.

648262 11y ago

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/21d4uw/if_your_smv_is_low_eg_youre_fat_poor_unpopular_or/

648262 11y ago

You can't increase your SMV? Why not?

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I'm too depressed to do anything really. I only go out in hopes I will meet someone who just fuck me that night or in a week or so.

648262 11y ago

I see. Well, working on that depression will increase your SMV. Talk to a doctor/therapist.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I am. Doesn't help. I am going to kill myself soon.

648262 11y ago

Ok.

http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2011-03-07/1299498845873.png

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I can't do what I want so the only escape from the pain is death.

648262 11y ago

What is it that you want?

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I'd like to get laid without paying for it for one.

myTRPaccount 11y ago

TRP advocates improving yourself so that you become sexually attractive. When you are sexually attractive, you don't need to lie to get women.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Ok, but aren't some of the components of sexual attractiveness have to do with acting a certain way in front of women? And if that way isn't natural it is better (as in more conducive to getting sex and romance) to manufacture those responses like agree and amplify falsely than answering sincerely? And if that is true doesn't that mean there can be an element of dishonesty involved?

-1

myTRPaccount 11y ago

There is always a level of dishonesty involved in every interaction you have regardless of gender. When you go out with someone, you are usually trying to present your best self in the beginning. If you are working towards becoming something, whether it comes naturally or not, plays little in how you will be perceived. It's your actions that speak louder than words.

If you're building towards a better person and you have to "fake it until you make it", is it so dishonest if what you're faking is what you're striving for?

Flipping the question, whenever women wear make-up or don't put out all of their crazy on thee first date, they are also being dishonest.

Society needs some white lies to function, in all social interactions. In a business meeting, you can't just tell your client you thing they're an asshole, even if it's true. In interactions, we're rarely 100% honest because a lot of interactions are forced and necessary.

In light of the spirit of your question, which I take to be baiting TRP into incriminating itself, even if you have a 100% honest relationship with a women, you wouldn't necessarily tell her that you think other women are prettier or have better bodies or are more fun than your SO. There are social conventions which should be followed.

TooMuchToDoo 11y ago

♂

Excellent explanation. Best answer on this thread. The fake it until you make it mindset exists because it is required to internalize your end goal (whether it's being a leader among your peers or attracting women, etc). The men who attract women interact without contrition, therefore it is not being dishonest. But if you aren't on their level, there will be a time in which you must emulate them without having internalized their mindset yet.

EDIT: trpbot sucks.

trpbot 11y ago

Confirmed: 1 point awarded to /u/myTRPaccount by TooMuchToDoo. ^[History]

[This is an Automated Message]

TooMuchToDoo 11y ago

There. I've replied. happy now?

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Yea, I have problems with all social conventions. This is probably the true root of my problems with women. To me, make up is lying. I can only see this issue in black and white. It's just the way I'm wired. And I think the world would be a better place if I could tell my SO other girls are better than her and it'd be ok. If we accepted that we are just matched with SMV and/or we are choosing each other despite higher SMV options. To me, that is a beautiful world.

-1

RedPillington 11y ago

It's just the way I'm wired.

are you autistic, or just pigheadedly dedicated to arbitrary principles?

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I don't think it's either. I do have a certain personality disorder that mimics some aspects of autism without me being unable neurologically to read social cues and all that. So I guess the truth is some where in between though I wouldn't call it pig headed at all nor would I call the principles arbitrary.

kami_kakushi 11y ago

yeah, im always just totally direct with women. i just ask em out straight, and never lie about anything.

works fine for me.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Wow. Are you good looking?

-1

kami_kakushi 11y ago

no, just average. ime women like the direct approach.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

That's remarkable to me.

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[deleted] 11y ago

[deleted]

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Yea, I def could use more genuine confidence.

motorcyclematt 11y ago

C'mon man.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I'm not sure what to say.

motorcyclematt 11y ago

Why would it be impossible to seduce a woman without lying? No offense and this isn't directed at you, but if you are a shitty man and haven't built up a high SMV then yes maybe you may have to lie. But then maybe you should get a better job and move out of your parents basement. Hit the gym improve yourself, do exciting things in life and then talk about doing them, that solves you having to lie to about what you do. What would you have to lie about OP?

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Those would help, but unfortunate I am too depressed in my life to do those things.

What I mean by lying has more to do with the mechanics of dealing with situations. Like how to deal with shit tests and all. Not about biographical information or something.

motorcyclematt 11y ago

I'm sorry for whatever you are going through in life man. You have to work on yourself first before you can reach out to others. In the end you will be all that you are left with in life, be a bad motherfucker. Work through your depression, you owe it to yourself and you deserve to feel better but you have to work for it, coming from somebody who battles/battled depression.

Nah man you can overcome the shit test without lying, its more about being witty and playing it off. Don't give a shit about what she is throwing at you. You are a bad mofo. Keep that in mind.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

If a girl throws a shit test I become sad. Not sad because of what she's saying or anything like that, but sad that she's being a dumb animal and allowing these stupid instincts to get in the way of being good to others. I say that because I think it should give insight into how I view the world and where my values are. I will try to be less affected by things in the end though.

TheSKSpecial 11y ago

So you're looking for some cheat code or life hack to make you attractive while doing absolutely no work for it. You just want to snap your fingers and be able to seduce women.

It doesn't work like that. Sorry.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Isn't this whole subreddit a life hack to seduce women and live life fully?

-1

[deleted] 11y ago

[deleted]

AllOrDeath 11y ago

What are you talking about?

-1

Jasmene2012 11y ago

He said you are fucking dumb. Again, not lying.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

What?

[deleted] 11y ago

[deleted]

AllOrDeath 11y ago

You don't have any idea what you are talking about. You are just annoyed by the things I say and my conduct which is ok. I am still going to pursue a way to resolve this issues even if it makes some think of me as a troll or obtuse or whatever. My life is more important than your judgment.

-1

[deleted] 11y ago

[deleted]

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I am willing to change. I just can't change in every way that is being suggested here or start them right now. So I guess I'm trying to find a way of establishing a romantic or sexual connection without going doing a 6 month, away from society, SMV boosting chapter of my life.

[deleted] 11y ago

[deleted]

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Where would you suggest I start that would yield the most results with women immediately?

lonGterMgoalS 11y ago

Where in the sidebar did it say you should lie?

AllOrDeath 11y ago

That's like observing a politician and saying "When did he say that he condones lying?" A successful politician would never say that and almost all of them demonstrably do if you look deeper into what they say and what they do. In a similar way, while TRP and alphas rarely directly say lie, they suggest methods which inevitably to some will be so opposite to their nature and intentions that there's nothing in them that will allow them to act that way save faking it. I am such a person and thus I ask this question.

-6

laere 11y ago

Yeah dude every guy here is going to college and majoring in "Lying to women." I can't wait for my 6 figure starting salary.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

That's one of the dumbest retorts I've ever read.

lonGterMgoalS 11y ago

"That's like observing a politician..."

It's not like anything. I asked you a simple, straightforward question. You asked a vague question and made a claim that lying is recommended. Without more information or an example how can we know what you're referring to?

So again, where in the sidebar do you think it says to lie?

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Withholding validation to increase their value, being unavailable, pretending you have other girls or plates when you don't, not complimenting on looks, negging, handling shit tests in a way that "works" rather than what is natural... etc. I mean I could go on for a while about things that are accepted by TRP that are dishonest, but I've named a few right there.

-3

lonGterMgoalS 11y ago

Withholding validation to increase their value

Did you mean decrease? Also, this isn't lying.

being unavailable

Having a life and other intrests that occupy your time isn't lying.

pretending you have other girls or plates

Where does it say to pretend you have other girls?

None of the other techniques or suggestions are forms of lies either.

So to answer your original question, yes, you can seduce a woman honestly.

Edit: being aware of what works and using that knowledge to your advantage isn't lying.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Did you mean decrease? Also, this isn't lying.

Increasing the value of the person who did it not the person it's being done to. It is lying if you would have validated them save for something you read on the internet that said you shouldn't imo.

Having a life and other intrests that occupy your time isn't lying.

Unless you don't. Also, often it's encouraged to make it seem like you have those things deliberately to give a specific impression. What if it is just so happens you are free every time you plan something with someone? Or that particular week you don't have much planned? Saying so would make you look valueless if you are generally busy and thus people lie and are encouraged to lie. To make them seem busier than they are.

Where does it say to pretend you have other girls?

Assuming you have none, I've read often it's better to pretend you do than to not say anything and better to not say anything than be forthcoming that you have nothing.

None of the other techniques or suggestions are forms of lies either.

Unless you are lying when you use them like I've explained above for those specific ones.

being aware of what works and using that knowledge to your advantage isn't lying.

Isn't socializing about displaying who one actually is not using social theory to manipulate others?

-4

jamieoneal82 11y ago

Isn't socializing about displaying who one actually is not using social theory to manipulate others?

Everything you think you know about how other people see you is probably wrong. You could be highly intelligent, try to "be yourself" and people could still perceive you as a bumbling idiot.

All communication is "manipulation" in some way. You are trying to evoke thoughts in someone else's mind through your words and actions. The difference is whether or not you're actually effective in doing so. Understanding psychology, biology, sociology, etc, can help you to more effectively portray your self to others.

TRP is just a system for men to:

See through the manipulations and facades modern women employ.
Learn how to actually improve yourself as a man to become more sexual attractive.
More effectively communicate your value to others, especially women.

Sure, some of the advice is sort of "short cut" advice, fake it till you make it, etc. But that could be said of a lot of things. Working out could be described as "faking" that you're strong in order to "make it" to actually being strong.

RedPillington 11y ago

It is lying if you would have validated them save for something you read on the internet that said you shouldn't imo.

if you have an impulse to do something, like eat a bunch of peanut butter, jerk off all over yourself, and cry yourself to sleep, but instead you go to the gym, is that lying?

Unless you don't.

so to answer your question "is it possible?" the answer is "yes"

Assuming you have none

so to answer your question "is it possible?" the answer is "yes"

Unless you are lying when you use them like I've explained above for those specific ones.

so to answer your question "is it possible?" the answer is "yes"

Isn't socializing about displaying who one actually is not using social theory to manipulate others?

socializing is neither of those things.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

if you have an impulse to do something, like eat a bunch of peanut butter, jerk off all over yourself, and cry yourself to sleep, but instead you go to the gym, is that lying?

Yea, I think of that counterpoint a lot too. I think it depends on the values of the person. Some people would be happier one way and others another way.

socializing is neither of those things.

What is it then?

RedPillington 11y ago

is it lying though? you seem to think any conscious choice is dishonest, and frankly, you should probably take that somewhere else.

What is it then?

too fucking complicated to discuss with someone who hasn't nailed down will as a component of self.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

is it lying though? you seem to think any conscious choice is dishonest, and frankly, you should probably take that somewhere else.

I think if it doesn't match up with the person's personal values it could be considering lying to oneself, yes.

lonGterMgoalS 11y ago

This isn't a debate and no one is calling your house trying to sell you shit.

If you aren't ok or comfortable with what's said then don't do it. If being open, sharing your every thought, showering some girl with compliments and making her feel like a precious jewel is what you want to do then do it.

Clearly you don't agree and you consider what's suggested as manipulation so why are you even here? Do you normally go to subs you disagree with and ask questions? It's weird.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Calling me weird is just rhetoric. I'm interested in logical discussion.

I am here because I think there is truth to a lot of the methods and theoretical framework about seduction here. I am trying to find a way to resolve personal and logical issues I see with what is expressed here and myself. Because I have no success with women and want to change that, but at the same time don't want to have to basically alter every thing about me for it.

-2

lonGterMgoalS 11y ago

You're looking for a logical discussion but when it comes to women, logic isn't always obvious. They do things based on feelings and emotions.

What's suggested here is guidelines. Use them. See if they work. Then try and come up with reasoning on an individual basis. I know why my wife does certain things and why things suggested here work but it took me knowing her years to get it.

No one says use all the techniques. They're there because they work. Maybe not all of them on every girl but the majority yes.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Use them. See if they work. Then try and come up with reasoning on an individual basis.

I can't do that. It seems so intellectually dishonest. Like someone saying, "first be willing to do anything for money then later justify it". And I think understand why a lot of the things work, but it's cause of biological imperatives or social conventions. It's never about aspiring to something more.

[deleted] 11y ago

Isn't socializing about displaying who one actually is not using social theory to manipulate others?

"Displaying who one actually is", right.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I read the article. It mostly doesn't apply to me. I was aware of that aspect of people from a very early age and took deliberate steps, including purposely not affiliating with any social group, so I could look at the world as objectively as possible. I've never really given into partisanship with politics, I tend to research the other side of any issue, even if it seems obvious, purposely to avoid bias and much more. I rebel against those instincts described in that article and that rebellion is both part of why I have trouble socializing and I can't take joy in simply going along with group and thus desire to be an individual so much. It's the reason I feel comfortable disagreeing with every commenter here until we reach a logical point of an agreement and why the rhetoric tactics tend to fall flat to me. That last aspect is part of why I find TRP working on women so disgusting. If I can, at least in some way, surpass my animal nature so can she. And the people who just give into it and fall for these things I can't respect.

[deleted] 11y ago

Ah, the classic "yes, this is a natural heuristic inherent to the physiological structure of the human brain, but I'm better than that" approach.

At least you've got confidence going for you, even if not an understanding of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

It's the truth and I provided evidence for it.

yesterdayz_garbage 11y ago

Absolutely. What I tend to do is have a conversation about the truth about men, similar to Patrice O' Neal's karate class. Women are intrigued and by me being a man, they eventually deduce that if they were with me, they'd be part of my karate class. Of course your confidence needs to be strong and what you say needs to be believed by you in order to convince a woman. When you don't lie to women, they can't pull the "you lied to me card."

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I'm not familiar with the karate class thing. Could you summarize it, please?

redpillshadow 11y ago

If you label all working seduction as dishonest of course not. And in the end that is your current mind set.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Well, it depends on what we are talking about, no? I mean the opposite extreme view is often taken here where anything TRP is inherently honest.

[deleted] 11y ago

[deleted]

AllOrDeath 11y ago

When you nice guy up and make covert contracts with a woman by pretending you have a vagina, you're lying to her.

What? I have no idea what that means.

Men who are just men are not lying about anything. Why the fuck would we lie? We're not cowards, so lying is off the table.

Well, some of the ideas that I have about why it's lying is in the comments in response to others. The main idea is that when ever I do what comes naturally to me I fail always. So I am not lying or being cowardly and I fail.

-2

1vs1 11y ago

Covert contracts is a term used in the book No more mr nice guy. I suggest you read it.

Anyways that basically means that you're doing something for a girl you really like and expect her to reciprocate and like you back (i.e. buying her stuff, taking her out on expensive dates).

AllOrDeath 11y ago

Seems to me how every person works. I don't think anyone does anything for literally nothing.

-2

RedPillington 11y ago

but if you're saying honesty is stating your intentions up front, and you're unwilling to be dishonest, you would be non-functional in society.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

And that's a big part of why I've basically dropped out of society. I just stay in my room most of the time. I genuinely can't stand the hypocrisy necessary to survive.

RedPillington 11y ago

you have a delusional belief about reality. reality is impossible to understand on an absolute level. direct communication is impossible. transmission of true intent is impossible.

we learn a symbolic system of expression (language), and we identify with our use of those symbols in our thoughts. we also have animal impulses that can fill our mind, and sometimes we identify with these, and other times we feel controlled by them. for example, does hunger feel like you?

in any case, any communication is magic. people have been working on this language (collection of symbols) forever. this language is somehow transmuted and evolved by needs and wants of humans back since the dawn of language. when you say "mother" or "car", it evokes a set of impressions within you. you might say "mother" and it will give you a positive emotional tone, but you're saying it to another person who has a negative emotional tone. everyone's symbolic system of impressions and associations is different.

still, people argue over the technicalities of certain symbols using nothing but other symbols. we argue over the technicalities of those symbols. we are doing this with squiggles and lines and sounds, like an occultist reciting invocations.

we are all completely fucking mad, wandering around in the dark. you are depressed because you think that we're not supposed to be this way, but we are. it's the only way for us. communication is magic, so the best option available is get better at magic. stop using magic to frame the world negatively and demotivate yourself.

i can't convince you of this shit. i would encourage you to find some sort of developmental spiritual practice. i can't tell you what.

the most convincing treatise on the madness of humans i've ever read is beelzebub's tales to his grandson, but you have to make the effort to read it. if you prefer novels, the road and blood meridian by cormac mccarthy or slaughterhouse five by kurt vonnegut give some sort of picture of the madness of the world. aleister crowley has a ton of fascinating writings. the book of lies and the book of law are short and strange.

you think you know things that you have no idea about. nobody can help you unless you let go of this.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

I'll check those books out.

I really disagree with your ideas though. Just because we use symbols that doesn't mean we can't express things with immense exactitude. I also don't think we are all mad or it's all about perspective or that humans have to be any one way.

RedPillington 11y ago

Just because we use symbols that doesn't mean we can't express things with immense exactitude.

we can express things with immense exactitude, but the words of primary humanistic concern barely have usable definitions. love, friendship, truth are all amorphous blobs that mean something different to every person.

I also don't think we are all mad

our ability to perceive reality is cripplingly bad, and our brains are oppressively superstitious. at best, most people are functional. some people are what i would consider not mad, but they're few and far between.

or it's all about perspective

i don't posit this

or that humans have to be any one way.

you are experiencing angst over reality. i'm saying reality is, and your fantasies are not. believing in the "truth" or "merit" or "righteousness" of your fantasies over reality as best as we can perceive it makes you pretty much insane, because you are basically arguing with rocks.

AllOrDeath 11y ago

we can express things with immense exactitude, but the words of primary humanistic concern barely have usable definitions. love, friendship, truth are all amorphous blobs that mean something different to every person.

This is because of how fickle, hypocritical and greedy people are not because language can't describe what those things are nor because we don't understand what they are. We all know what a real friend is vs a fake friend vs an acquaintance vs a stranger vs a fwb vs a SO etc.

our ability to perceive reality is cripplingly bad, and our brains are oppressively superstitious. at best, most people are functional. some people are what i would consider not mad, but they're few and far between

I agree with this. but I don't agree with the underlying assumption that seems to be there that being functional = seeing reality. In fact, I think often we purposely skew our perceptions of reality to demonstrable falsehoods or nearly demonstrable ones to increase functionality.

you are experiencing angst over reality. i'm saying reality is, and your fantasies are not. believing in the "truth" or "merit" or "righteousness" of your fantasies over reality as best as we can perceive it makes you pretty much insane, because you are basically arguing with rocks.

I'd like to think people have more agency than rocks, but I understand your overall point. That's part of why it seems quitting life is a good idea.

Jasmene2012 11y ago

Noone is telling to lie.

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