Sorry for the long post… been reading a lot of the posts here and just want to start out by saying "thank you". Great stuff that has opened my eyes to a lot of things that may have led to the point where I am, right now, in my marriage and things I need to do to change.
Unfortunately, I may be one of those that let it go too far for too long. I may not be able to bring my marriage back to what it once was, and I am, basically, asking for some advice on my current situation.
Background: Me? 44, waited till I was 39 to get married. Wife? 43… this is her second. She has two daughters from her previous marriage. Together we have 1 daughter who is now 4.
Soon after we got married, things started to get bad. She was constantly questioning my judgment and criticizing things I do and she would criticize others but only to me. She also would not allow me to discipline/correct my step-daughters or would not allow me to have a say in their activities… If I would get into it with my oldest step-daughter, she would come to their rescue. Also, she would spend a lot of time trash talking her ex… not just to me… but to her daughters as well. There was always a double standard… She might bring up an ex or something and start talking about him, but, when I did it, all hell would break loose.
In the beginning, I would tell her everything… where I was going, when I was going to be home, what I had to buy, personal goals, etc… I would also share work stories with her, and ask her opinion on things… But, after a few times of me divulging something to her and it coming up in a marriage counselling sessions, completely out of context and really just sounding bad, I stopped. An example of that was when my father passed away… I told her that there were some things that, at the end of my dad's life, bothered me about his behavior. She told the marriage counselor that I didn’t like my father and said I never wanted to be like him…. Not the same thing at all.
When we would argue, she always won… I look back now and, knowing what I know now, from a lot of what I have read here, I should never have engaged in arguments with her. Especially when I saw the "rationalization hamster" start going… she would take things out of context, accuse me of saying something I didn’t, or somehow turn the argument into about something else that I had no defense for (i.e. raising my voice). She would record our arguments once it escalated to a point where she had pissed me off.
She almost always would get her way… if she didn’t, she would make everyone in the family miserable… one time, she wanted to go see Christmas lights after a long day of shopping at the mall. Everyone was tired and just wanted to go home, so, she started to try to manipulate my youngest step-daughter, saying that she had said earlier that she wanted to go and now she was backing out… then she said that the little one, who was 3, REALLY wanted to go… and when myself and my oldest step-daughter said we were really tired and just wanted to go home, she stopped talking to everyone and then, later, told me that she hates it when people say they are going to do something and then don’t and that I told her I would take her to see lights (which I had not). She spent a few days not talking to me and then brought it up to a marriage counselor.
Most of the time, I gave in to whatever she wanted to avoid conflict… But, over the last couple of years, I stopped putting up with it as much… that’s when things started to get really bad.
We've been to four different marriage counselors. In the course of sessions with marriage counselors, I have heard it all… She has accused me of an "inappropriate" relationship with my step-daughters soccer coach, not texting her enough during the day, never doing anything alone with her, always doing what I want to do, having anger issues, victim of molestation (long story that she fabricated based on something I told her about when I was a kid that SHE turned into "he was molested"), victim of depression… and the list goes on and on. I won't go into details about the marriage counselors, but, while seeing the third one, my wife brought out a letter she had written about her concerns and observations of me… on it was a bunch of sh*t about my father and mother, the thing about "he was molested", stuff about my step-daughters being scared of me and that I am responsible for my youngest step-daughter's insecurities, and a lot of stuff that was either "half-truths" but missing important information, or stuff that was taken "out of context". And, the last marriage counselor just sent my wife home last week with some information on "paranoid personality disorder" and told her to give it to me. This was after I had told him, and my wife, that I was no longer coming to counseling.
At the time I stopped going to the counseling, it was then that I started lurking on this subreddit and it has opened my eyes to a lot of sh*t. For the past 5 years, any time my wife wanted something and didn’t get it, she would make everyone miserable until she got it… if she didn’t get it, she would provoke me until I raised my voice or got angry and then she would shift the focus to how I lost my temper… she would record me yelling at her, and then go to the marriage counselor and say "see? He is broken… there is something wrong with him." But, it was convenient to leave out the preceeding stuff to me yelling… her provoking… poking the bear…
Over the last couple of weeks, I've started making some changes to my behavior… I am no longer asking her if I can work late… I no longer ask her if I can go have a beer with my co-workers… If I am going to work on something around the house, I don’t make sure it doesn’t mess with something else she wanted me to do, first. If I want to study, I tell her, I am going to study…. I don’t ask her anymore. I started working out every morning.
Needless to say, this is not going over well. This morning she demanded an apology for the way I spoke to her and the girls about a movie they took the little one to last night that I thought would probably give her nightmares. I was a little toasty from a work happy hour thing I had gone too, so I am not 100% sure of all I said, so, I did apologize to my youngest step-daughter because she said I was being really "obnoxious" about it… but, my wife, after just demanding an apology without telling me what I was apologizing for, and not getting it, finally told me that I was "nasty" to her and the girls and that I moved a bunch of stuff off of the dresser and put it in a jewelry box where it doesn’t belong and that I wouldn’t answer her when she asked me questions… I told her that I was sorry if I was obnoxious about the movie thing… but, that was all I was apologizing for… She tried to continue to prod and poke and I told her it was time to move on to another topic and she needed to let it go. She then brought up that she saw that I had opened a new bank account… She said she felt like I was hiding stuff from her and she started to ask me questions about what my intention was … I explained to her that, from since before we were married, she has had a separate bank account and she had never put me on it, for one, and, that I had told her that I wasn’t happy about not having a say in the girls activities so, I was going to start having my paycheck go into the new account, and then I would contribute what I felt was appropriate, to the girls activities.
At that point, she started to get nasty and that is when she brought out the paper with the info about "paranoid personality disorder". She says "I started thinking back to how things were and when they changed and, when you were diagnosed with ADHD and started taking Adderall, that that’s when things started to change… " I am fuming at this point… all I can think is "this person has lost her mind… ", but, I kept reminding myself to stay calm… I let her go on for about a minute more and finally I just said "you know… I really can't listen to this… I am going to go somewhere and study… you started the conversation with "we need to decide what we are going to do…" and , I think you should use this time to think about what you want to do instead of trying figure out a way to somehow make me the reason for all of our problems… it really sounds like you are unhappy in this marriage…. "
If anybody out there has any words of wisdom or advice… words of encouragement… I sure would appreciate it… The thought of being away from my daughter scares the hell out of me. But, I have a feeling we are at the point of no return.
Sorry, again, for the long post.
lonGterMgoalS 11y ago
She is the epitome of shit tests and "controlling independent woman." Fuck, I want to run and all I did was read this. I feel for you man.
Besides all this crap:
How's your sex life?
Who makes more money?
Your marriage is under 10 years and you have a kid so I'm not going to suggest nexting her. You have to do a 180 though. My wife could've ended up this way but she didn't. Granted she was younger when we married so you have your work cut out for you.
frothyhaha 11y ago
Sex life has been horrible. Maybe once a month... if that.
She makes a little more than I do... but, we both make good money... my job is a lot more stable than hers is, though.
lonGterMgoalS 11y ago
My advice for you is to:
Read MMSL. Stop apologizing, even if you're wrong about something. Never ask permission. Children ask for permission not husbands. You mentioned you opened a separate bank account. Great! Keep your info private. Come and go as you please. If there aren't any plans then you don't need to give a heads up. You can give a quick text every now and then letting her know when you'll be home but I wouldn't do this just yet. Don't reply to her texts immediately and let her calls go to voicemail. If it's not a crisis don't respond.
It's hard but ignore her tantrums. Poke fun at her being irrational or controlling. Don't do shit she tells you to. She needs to learn to ask you nicely for things.
Up your appearance. Dress as best as you can. If you don't wear cologne, start wearing it. Go out with the guys and don't answer her texts or calls when you do.
You may feel like a douchebag doing these things but you're not. You have to lead and right now you need respect. She doesn't respect you and without respect you can't lead. Also, keep your word. If you say you're going to do something or be somewhere then stick to it. And when you feel she's been good take her out. Make plans then tell her to be ready at a certain time and take her out.
Lastly, don't be scared of her reactions. Be scared of how your daughter's view you. You are the model of the man they will choose.
You got this. Keep us posted.
frothyhaha 11y ago
Let me first say, YOU GUYS ROCK!!!! everyone who has responded so far has just been awesome... what I needed... so, for that, thank you.
One thing has changed since I posted this... wife texted me while I was away from the house... said "we needed to talk".
I took my time responding... she asked to meet me somewhere away from the house...
She started with what I am pretty sure was a shit test... she said we need to decide, together, what we are doing next... and then she said IF we stay together, I am sure there are things you want me to work on, and there are things I want you to work on... if we decide to split, we need to figure that out...
The thing is, we have been at this crossroads so many times before and have always chosen what seemed to be the "right" path... or, at least the path that would not separate me from my daughter... but, all of a sudden, I am seeing things differently. I cant have my daughter growing up with her dad being a whipped, beaten into submission, servant... a beta... she wont respect me and will end up resenting me...
I said "I think, after 4 marriage counselors, we both know how the first option will not work out... I think it is time to talk about option #2... "
Her demeanor changed... Everything... it was as if she did not expect me to be so willing to move on... all of a sudden, she is asking me what would have to change in order for it to work...
I stuck to my guns... I said "do you really think we are capable of working this out after all of this... at this stage, we would just end up hating each other if we kept on... It isn't good for the girls, and it isn't good for us. Let face it... we keep doing the same thing, over and over, and it isn't working... and, after having some paper shoved in my face this morning that says I have "paranoid personality disorder"... well, I cant have that sort of thing anymore... not cool."
She started to tear up... but, I have been through so much shit from this woman that I have seen her play the victim too many times when she doesn't get her way...
I said "and you will always think you are the victim in this relationship, and that is why you will never change."
She ended up having to go and pick the girls and I just said "I am hopeful that we can be amicable while we figure out next steps... "
She kept saying "how can someone be in love and then not work things out..." I wanted to say "if you've been kicked in the gut so many times by the person you love, eventually, you forget the person you fell in love with and only see somebody who kicks you in the gut all the time." But, I thought it was too harsh... I just said "yeah... I know, right?"
And that was it...
She did say, before leaving, that she couldn't stand the thought of me being with another woman. The old me, up until about 6 months ago, would have said "no baby, I only have eyes for you..." and sh*t like that...
...I didn't say anything.
You guys rock!!!!!!!!
[deleted] 11y ago
OP, it is scary how similar your marriage is to my recently former marriage. My ex-wife would play the exact same tactics. "Daddy, the girls want to go to the pool" while I was unemployed and needed to be near a phone at all times to contact recruiters and potential employers. Or, the real infuriator: "I know we just got $4000 from our last unemployment checks and your first paycheck at your new job, but we should go to the food shelter. We have an appointment." Any dissension from her plan would result in screaming and make-up sex. And the make-up sex wasn't even that good. She was 80 pounds overweight and barely performed oral. I'm surprised I lasted as long as I did.
The tactic she'll try to pull, that I've already seen from your post that she pulled a variation of, is "how can you love the kids but not their mother?" I legitimately got asked that before the end. I was dumbfounded by the logic in that (or rather, lack of logic). Whatever route you decide, stick to your guns and don't give in. There's so much shit I could've avoided from that vile woman if I had just grown a spine. There wouldn't have been a marriage, I wouldn't have had $10K in debt, and I wouldn't be stuck in the rut that I am in now.
frothyhaha 11y ago
Thanks for the response.
Yeah... the little bit I have posted in my original post and my follow up really doesn't come close to the beating I have taken over the years with my wife.
I admit, in hindsight, a lot of this could have been "nipped in the butt" pretty quickly, if I had known about TRP and how my beta behavior was fueling it.
But, it is amazing how someone could be so manipulating and I got caught up in... I even thought, at one time, that I had had some brain damage or something because I just wasn't getting it... we would go down the same path over and over again and I was trying to make changes and doing what I thought was right, but, no matter what I did, it was either never enough, or the wrong thing.
I even went so far as to go to a specialist that ran some tests to see if there was something "broken" up there.
I only hope I can stay the course. This is going to be tough.
Thanks again for responding... I really do appreciate all of the advice and encouragement I have gotten here.
KyfhoMyoba 11y ago
Should've said the kicked in the gut line. You'll probably get another chance, though.
The thought of you with another woman? "Well, honey, what are you going to DO about that?" or "You make your bed, you lie in it" or "Don't push me into another woman's arms" OH MY GOD I LOVE DREAD GAME! It's not aggressive, it's actually honest, and it's competitive, all three fit in with my libertarian free-market principles. When you get right down to it, it's merely the removal of positive reinforcement.
What ever you do, /u/frothyhaha, please keep us posted on your progress. Many of us LIVE for these kinds of posts. The newbies HAVE to have them so that they will believe, but it also keeps us veterans in good spirits, as well.
God speed, my brother, God speed.
PS be sure to read damn near every post on therationalmale.com
lonGterMgoalS 11y ago
Amen brother.
[deleted] 11y ago
You would have been better off just ignoring it like the shit test it was. She wasn't looking for a divorce, just trying to push you into compliance. A simple "No" would have sufficed.
frothyhaha 11y ago
I tried a simple "no". She doesn't let it go... This morning, when I left the house, she followed me out yelling my name saying we needed to make a decision... I got in the car and left to get my head straight (told her I was going somewhere to study)... then, the texts about needing to talk and the conversation in the car ... how does one "ignore" it?
Maybe I need to read up some more on TRP... it sounds like I didn't handle the situation right when I answered her question about the bank account, and on how I handled the question about whether we should move on or not...
But, when they are sitting there right across from you or, in the car, right next to you... do I just don't answer? Because, she will ask again, and again... on the thing with the bank, I could have said "I don't need to tell you anything...", but, I hadn't yet set up my paycheck to go into my new account and I run the risk of her running out and shutting down my access to the only money I have right now.... of course, in hindsight, she could have done that anyway even after I explained why I had the account... but, I wanted her to know that this was all her doing... and she should have listened when I warned her, and now, its time to see that aint playin'.
On the topic of "what do we do now?", I figured, after 4 marriage counselors and this last attempt at trying to convince me that I am broken and I that as soon as I accept that, we can get me some help and get back to where I am the nice little obedient beta she can order around, it was time for me to back her off and, again, show her that I aint playin... so, I went ahead and just said it... "yeah... its time to move on... "
I just cant see how I could have ignored it... but, teach me... that is why I posted all this... I am looking for guidance.... advice....
Thanks again!!!!
[deleted] 11y ago
You need to see the humor in it. This is funny, her following you around saying "we" need to make a decision when it's clear that you already have made one. Ignore the texts, don't even mention them. You don't even need to read them. Let her flip the fuck out and give it a good chuckle when she does. This is the essence of amused mastery. There's nothing she can do. The crazier she gets, the less likely anyone will side with her.
Words are 100% unnecessary. You kicked the beehive in your bee-proof suit, this is expected. Your new argumentative technique is not justifying your responses. Better yet if your response is in the form of an action. You don't need to explain why for anything. Explaining it is just getting sucked into an argument.
[deleted] 11y ago
Forgot to mention - if absolutely backed into a corner, tell her that her behavior is childish and unacceptable.
frothyhaha 11y ago
am loving your response... but, when you say "you kicked the beehive in your bee-proof suit, this is to be expected"... are you saying it like it is a bad thing? Like she was expecting me to do that, and I would be better off not doing that?
as for telling her her behavior is childish, I started to use that one after reading up on TRP and seeing some of the responses to other posts... It definitely gets her wound up... that's for damn sure...
But, today, when I said it, when she kept saying demanding an apology for the night before and how I acted, I said it and she snapped back saying "you are being nasty to me... stop saying that... that is just disrespectful... YOU are the one acting like a child."
[deleted] 11y ago
I just meant that you shouldn't be surprised that she's flipping out. That was the plan.
Start making your statements simple and direct. If she's telling you to apologize, you say "I'm not going to apologize.". Getting sucked into the argument ( you are still getting involved at this point ) is just going to make it last longer.
[deleted] 11y ago
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frothyhaha 11y ago
Funny you mention that... I had read a post from a guy that seemed to be in a similar situation as myself... I saw that the recommendation was to read that... I just started reading it... thanks for the advice!!!!
lonGterMgoalS 11y ago
Second this. Running a MAP (hard), dread and a huge dose of I don't give a fuck is what OP needs.
[deleted] 11y ago
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lonGterMgoalS 11y ago
I'm hyped for him. I think he can do it. Her age makes it more likely her behavior has gone unchecked for a while so that's going to require effort. But her age also means when she looks in the mirror, reality is kicking her ass.
He can completely flip this around. Her behavior is screaming for some boundaries.
frothyhaha 11y ago
I think that one thing that has helped me maintain frame (so far, although, I am still new at this), is that little bit you put in there about "her age also means when she looks in the mirror, reality is kicking her ass".
A buddy of mine at work who has watched me go through a lot of this shit over the last year, said it to me like this ... "dude... she's been married twice, she's squeezed out 3 kids, and she's in her mid 40's... that's not going to work too good in her favor."
TheSKSpecial 11y ago
You are in a DEEP hole right now, but at least you did the best thing first, which is stop digging (going to counseling and continuing to give in).
Next step is to start climbing out. Here's a few ways to do so:
Stop apologizing for shit you know you didn't do. Don't let the words "I'm sorry" come out your mouth again, unless you know you were wrong when you did it. When you apologize for nothing you just validated whatever retarded argument she had. Quit it.
Don't argue with her. Period. You were on the right track with not asking for everything and telling her to move on to another topic when she was talking about the movie thing, but you fell off when you responded about the bank account. You don't have to justify or explain shit to her, it's your money to do what you damn well please with it. You did recover pretty well when you decided to cut off the conversation while she was talking about the mental issues though, so good job on that.
frothyhaha 11y ago
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I cant thank you enough...
One thing to note, about all of this, is the fear that, if we separate, my wife will do to me, what I have witnessed her do to her ex, time and time again, with my step daughters. She trashes him, constantly... over the last couple of months she laid off of doing it, but, only because I called her out on it at the marriage counselor and said I didn't think that was appropriate....
I know she'll do it to me too... and, my fear is, that my daughter will believe what she hears. I cant stand the thought of losing my daughter, much less, her thinking her dad is a piece of sh*t.
My wife is always in a constant competition with her ex... if he takes my step-daughters to a theme park, I usually know because my wife takes them shopping or rents a house down at the beach and takes them and their friends... she took them to New York one time after they got back from being on vacation with their dad.
She'll do the same to me...
KyfhoMyoba 11y ago
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. -- Bene Gesserit "Litany Against Fear," from Frank Herbert's Dune
Dude. She just told you that she can't bear the thought of you with another woman. SHE'S the one with the fear, SHE'S the one wa-a-a-a-y past hitting the wall, SHE'S the one who'll get pumped and dumped on OKCupid after a divorce, SHE'S the one at the end of their fertility, SHE'S the one that can't improve their SMV!
When you set a boundary, she respects it! You just said how you called her out on trashing her ex, and lo, and behold! She stopped or cut way back! Care to take a guess on what the most attractive part of the male anatomy is to a woman?
The spine.
Your new behavior is very, VERY unusual, that's why she's still fitness (shit) testing you, but trust me on this, even though her cerebral cortex is rationalizing up a gigantic shit storm, her limbic system is sending tingle signals to her vajayjay. Make an AGGRESSIVE play for sex tonight. Combine it with a little tenderness. If she submits, give it to her good and rough. Cuddle afterwards. Keep us posted.
TheSKSpecial 11y ago
That's why I said spend time doing stuff with the kids BEFORE you split, as kind of a protection against that. The kids might hear mom say "your dad was a piece of shit", but then they remember when Daddy took them places and played games and did tea parties and shit so what she said doesn't quite stick. They'll believe more bad shit about a dad who was barely around or weak than one who they genuinely love and respected.
Kind of a tangent, but how do your stepdaughters talk about the ex? If he was a workaholic, or never around, or a beta schmuck, chances are they didn't respect him much before the split. However, if they did respect him, they probably don't believe what their mother says about him, because they see for themselves that he's not the POS she claims he was.
frothyhaha 11y ago
They love their dad. I had a heart to heart with my youngest step-daughter one evening and she said her dad was a big teddy bear.
They respect him.
I think he is a lot different than I am... he is pretty laid back... I cant see my oldest step daughter mouthing off to him the way she does to me, but, I think, too, that he handled that kind of stuff differently than I do...
If she mouths off to me, I say, "you know who bought you that phone and pays your bill? You want to keep it, right? Then, change your tone." But, there have been times that I have lost my cool...especially when she is blatantly disrespectful with me...
I don't see her being disrespectful with her dad... but, I don't see the two of them enough, together, to know, either.
TheSKSpecial 11y ago
Alright, so the mother badmouthing him doesn't affect them. Good to know.
You basically want that with your daughter. Nevermind what the stepkids think about you, since they're not yours. Your goal should be becoming a superhero to your daughter, so her mother can't turn her against you.
[deleted] 11y ago
You've got to ease into it. You can just grab your balls back, regrow your spine and tell her to fuck off in a day. She needs time to adjust to the changes in the relationship, it's at least a 6 month to 1 year process.
KyfhoMyoba 11y ago
Naaah. I've heard of it doing a 180 in a couple of weeks. It depends on how congruent the man is, and the length of time he was a BP beta pussy boy with her. Everyone's different.