From my standpoint, there are narratives about men that fall behind in dating (and want to discuss those issues) in both the pills. And of course, there's no shortage of actual incels and Nice Guys^(TM) to help these viewpoints reach mainstream popularity. The worst guys who fall behind in dating often tend to be the loudest.
The blue pill assumption tends to be that men who want to discuss their problems in dating are misogynistic, creepy types. Blue pill wants to protect the feminist imperative of women as a virtuous gender who can do no wrong and so they tend to ignore questions of status, looks and other factors like wealth that can determine a woman's decision to sleep with a man. The blue pill Nice Guy narrative therefore assumes a perspective on men who fall behind in dating in which when they want to discuss their issues - for example "I am a nice guy so why can't I get laid" - the unsuccessful man in question must be a misogynist.
This actually get's talked about a lot though and is quite easy to break down. Because niceness in itself is not a sexually attractive quality. Some feminists are inclined to argue that it is a bare minimum but it is not necessarily even that. Some men can get laid that are psychopaths, woman beaters, drug dealers and worse. And it's not just because they are holding influence over vulnerable women: some of these women actually find these men attractive and actually fantasise about dark triad personality (DTP) traits in guys. What is more difficult to criticise is the red pill narrative.
The red pill narrative on Nice Guys^(TM) accepts the premise I've just endorsed that men with genuinely virtuous traits can be unsuccessful in dating. Red pill are more inclined to argue along the lines that these men are not sexually attractive enough to seduce women: Nice Guys^(TM) do not have the balls to be aggressive in a way that is sexually attractive to women, while Incels are just not attractive for a variety of reasons (lack of charisma, ambition, muscularity, looks or whatever else). It is effectively the neckbeard narrative that blue pill espouses but without all the moralising.
And it's difficult to breakdown because technically they're right: in a black and white situation where other factors such as slut-shaming, personal risk and cock-blockers are not evident, any time a man approaches a woman and is rejected the problem is that the man wasn't attractive enough (to her). So what I don't want to address is the question of attractiveness in this thread but the neckbeard stereotype: a physically out of shape guy, with no ambition, no passions, who lurks in his mother's basement, only looking to date women significantly hotter than him and doesn't groom correctly. Can we say that men who fall behind in dating fit such a caricature? And if they want to discuss issues in dating, is it fair to generalise them in manners such as what I have mentioned with the above blue pill and red pill narratives?
Tl;Dr do men that fall behind in dating necessarily fit blue and red pill neck beard stereotypes: misogynistic, a physically out of shape guy, with no ambition, who lurks in his mother's basement, only looking to date women significantly hotter than him and who doesn't groom correctly
Rick_OShay1 5y ago
Sounds a little entitled, no?
[deleted] 5y ago
I don't have a problem showing common courtesy and respect and all that, I just wish Disney, Hollywood and some feminists, actually, would have done away with the notion that it's sexually attractive or that women are just looking for "Mr. Right".
oldredder 5y ago
have to credit Disney on one thing, they more than anyone else have portrayed the nasty supervillain as simply an evil single-mom cunt with an attitude problem. Sometimes there's magic, sometime's she's just a cunt.
Tell me how many other movie/media outlets have been that honest with us.
[deleted] 5y ago
They fall behind if not attractive - that's the simple truth of dating. Models who use internet dating can say whatever they want to women and still immediately get a number. The amount of effort needed is directly proportional to your attractiveness, it is accurate enough to say that attractive men are normally not neckbeards and so you see how this works out.
Looks,money and power make up the basis of a mans value to a woman - this is rarely disputed by people successfully as it has been proven both throughout history and in psychology testing.
Those that go against this common knowledge will favor the : "Women like nice guys!" , "Women like confidence" approach and ultimately fail in their attempts to date women - becoming the pitiful orbiter / nice guy friend.
Women themselves created these tangents in order to give those nice orbiter friends a bit of hope and to keep them around.
Just a MGTOW shedding some light
Edit : wow you are really into this shit, ask me anything you want.
[deleted] 5y ago
My point with the OP is not everyone who is single fits these stereotyped profiles but online speak likes to paint everyone into these categories.
[deleted] 5y ago
Yes.
Some might just not want to date - these are the big reasons why someone can't get a girlfriend, though.
[deleted] 5y ago
But I mean, there can be guys who are unable to date for whatever reasons but they don't fit a lot of the negative stereotypes (entitled, misogynistic, validation seeking, out of shape, poor hygiene, unambitious or poor facial structure). They may even be "above average" in some regards.
No1Buck 5y ago
The problem is that the sexual marketplace has become much more difficult for men in recent years due primarily to a shortage of non-fat women, combined with tinder harem culture where many women would rather share a highly attractive male with other women than be in an exclusive relationship with a less attractive male. To compound the problem, government now subsidizes women's bad decisions, bailing them out from the consequences of fully unleashing their hypergamy.
Guys who in years past would have been able to have normal sexual relationships have been squeezed out. You can see this in old photo albums. Look at the girls that regular guys back then were able to attract. Fast-forward those same guys to the current year and they would be completely uncompetitive in today's SMP.
The solutions are fixing our immigration system to prioritize importation of young women instead of young men, and eliminating many of the welfare programs that primarily serve to enable women to chase Chads. We also need to switch back to stigmatising single motherhood instead of glorifying it.
oldredder 5y ago
so true. still some random exceptions but so rare. I did meet one guy who I'd say is maybe a 6, a little pudgy and in his relationship not even the breadwinner. Sure he's working but she's making more. And? She's a fuckin 9 and fit and all around amazing. Somehow that dude really scored
DogMuh 5y ago
Or just be more attractive lmao
No1Buck 5y ago
That's the problem, standards have risen high enough that most men just don't have the genetics to meet them.
[deleted] 5y ago
You mean yourself.
Tell me what your dilemma is then, go on. I'll give some feedback.
Just currently mourning the censorship of TRP and it's quarantine.
[deleted] 5y ago
Yes me but there could be others like me. I'm not seeking advice as I don't think people on the internet can't help me. I just want to promote an alternative narrative.
[deleted] 5y ago
If you go against the narrative society will shun you.
Just stay quiet.
Without information I can't help, that's correct.
oldredder 5y ago
fuck that. Be real, get shunned, give them the finger. Shun them back
[deleted] 5y ago
Then get into an altercation lol.
What's the point
oldredder 5y ago
The point is freedom. Life without it is shit.
[deleted] 5y ago
I'm shunned anyway so might as well speak my mind.
[deleted] 5y ago
/r/MensRights
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UnlubricatedUnicorn 5y ago
Being attractive can solve one’s dating problems.
Improving oneself is good but you can’t really fix your face beyond a certain point barring plastic surgery.
[deleted] 5y ago
[deleted]
[deleted] 5y ago
Yes.
​
No.
[deleted] 5y ago
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[deleted] 5y ago
I have noticed RP tend to talk about "weak men" a lot: validation seekers, orbiters, betas, etc. I don't think it is necessarily a fair image when you can have a guy who doesn't do any of those things, who approaches hundreds of women, who works out, has a sense of fashion and tries his best to socialise but is still single. The RP advice can hurt isolated guys as much as the feminist stuff.
[deleted] 5y ago
[deleted]
[deleted] 5y ago
He might well still benefit from self-improvement. I just think it is lame to throw all the usual suggestions his way when he's got most of the basic stuff covered anyway.
[deleted] 5y ago
[deleted]
[deleted] 5y ago
My point is, there's guys with actually negative traits. And you go online to get advice and people just lump you in with all those other guys that can't get laid. Of course it's not everyone. But what it does is contribute to a general narrative so even guys who trying to give advice in good advice will say things like "try to be more social" (because the "neckbeards" don't get out much) or "learn to communicate" (because those guys have awful attitudes towards women and feel entitled, etc.).
[deleted] 5y ago
[deleted]
[deleted] 5y ago
I understand where you're coming from with all that. I just think that trolls and idiots aside there is a general mainstream narrative on dating advice that is oversimplified and makes assumptions about people's SMV. It's harder to explain my sentiment on that anymore but I definitely don't think the trolling or shit-posting from places like r/niceguys helps, even if they do have some legitimate function (which is to expose creeps on the internet). A lot of guys that have been SRU for a long time can maybe see where I'm coming from with this.