This is a topic that comes up from time to time so I want to put together my thoughts on "choice" when it comes to SRUGMs. Firstly, we will define "SRUGMs" in terms of what they are not and that is involuntary celibates - "incels"
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Or "Nice Guys^(TM)"
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What we do know is that SRUGMs are Sexually / Romantically Unsuccessful or "SRU" and this is defined here:
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What we also know is that they are Good Men or "GMs" as defined here:
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And with these two concepts combined we have a "SRUGM"
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So as with the SRU section (the most important part), we can see that the element of "choice" a sexually / romantically unsuccessful person is much wider than what a self-identified "incel" or "Nice Guy" would consider themselves. However the element of "choice" is still restricted compared to what we see with a sexually / romantically successful person, or a voluntary celibate ("volcel") who is content with their situation (perhaps they are chaste / religious or perhaps they just think sex is overrated anyway).
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But you are still making choices!
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I have come across this argument before and in a very technical sense yes we are making "choices" even identifying as SRU. This brings me to the reason why I make this thread though and that is that it is kind of marginalising to our situation to consider that we have "choices" as SRUGMs and I have written about this because it is important for our community to be able to tackle this semi-criticism, semi-token of advice giving perspective. I want to look at a scenario where our SRUGM goes to a restaurant and orders the steak which he says he would like to have it medium cooked.
I would like to mention beforehand that in this scenario, I am not referring to the Chef (women) offering "meat" as providing some kind of sexual service. Really I am talking about time, investment and a level of intimacy that men (the clients) and women (the chef) both offer to be successful in dating (wherein sex or romance could be possible outcomes from this). Realistically, my point is that men and women both have to offer some kind of energy to be successful in dating and get what they want. Well in this scenario our SRUGM already has the assets (money) required for him to purchase the steak (which in dating terms can be understood as "sexual / relationship market value" - S/RMV).
However, it takes a long time for the steak to come (but other customers - the SRUGM's competition - who arrived later and ordered the same dish have already been served) and so the SRUGM takes initiative - he approaches the chef in a non-invasive manner and politely asks how long it will take. At this point however the chef does not act in a reasonable fashion but he throws his hat down on the floor and exclaims that the SRUGM is acting in a way that could be considered entitled. At this point the SRUGM feels very frustrated (disillusioned) and considers leaving the restaurant anyway - all of the other restaurants in the area will be closed but perhaps it is better for the SRUGM to go home anyway even if he feels hungry and miserable and won't eat that night because he does not have anything in his fridge and all the supermarkets / take away outlets are closed in his neighbourhood.
However as he informs the chef that he is about to leave, the chef jumps up and down and exclaims that the steak is nearly finished. The SRUGM feels like his appetite has been spoiled but he decides that ok, he can wait five minutes now for the steak since he has waited this long already. However at this point when the steak arrives it is not medium cooked like he asked for but hard and chewy. When he complains to the chef and asks for his food to be reserved, the waiter exclaims that he has made several choices throughout the course of the evening - to order the steak, to wait for the steak and to begin eating the steak. The SRUGM does not have the right to complain, in fact this is just the SRUGM engaging in non-constructive whiny behaviour. Furthermore, since the SRUGM has already begun to eat the steak he should pay for it (in dating terms, we can understand this as alimony).
The SRUGM is furious. He decides he would prefer not to even bother with the steak and he would just go hungry at this point. He goes home and complains on a rating website about his difficulties that he has experienced with the restaurant service: the way he was treated that night by the chef and the fact no other restaurants in the area had been open. However, to his surprise an angry group of ideologists who call themselves "restaurantists" immediately begin to attack him with venomous vitriol: they exclaim that he should understand that "not all restaurants are like that" and that his attitudes and criticisms of the restaurant service in his area is a type of prejudice called "foodism". Also, the reasons why the SRUGM had difficulties in that restaurant was probably to do with some personal flaw that he has: maybe he was impolite, maybe he didn't dress well enough that evening, maybe he didn't bring enough money along with him, etc., etc. These restaurantists then start a subreddit called r/niceclients:
For all the self proclaimed "nice clients" who are actually manchildren or douches, or mistake their hilarious spinelessness for niceness This is primarily a subreddit for images of these "nice clients" demonstrating their unique charm.
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If the SRUGM dares to comment or post about what is wrong with this type of mentality, he will be swiftly informed that the subreddit is not dedicated to guys like him specifically, they are just trying to make the "other" guys look bad. The SRUGM sighs in disbelief but he cannot verbally explain what is wrong with these sentiments because every time he tries to it is like words in his mouth are being deliberately twisted against him in a malicious fashion. For this reason the SRUGM decides that while the problem may not be with restaurants in general, there has been a problem with most of the restaurant services he has encountered so far including but not limited to his own area. And because of this he feels jaded, cynical about his experiences and decides he would prefer to just abstain from the business of eating out for a while. He does not bother to share his experiences with anyone because he knows they will just tell him that he chose to feel jaded / cynical about his experiences and that these were emotions which he could have simply overcome. It is his own fault if he cannot enjoy the luxury of eating at places which offer a decent quality of food anymore because of his attitude. (He has also been informed that eating steak is "not that big a deal" and he could just eat bread and water if he wants to survive - again if he doesn't do that it's because of a choice).
Once in a while, the SRUGM goes on twitter, facebook and other kinds of social media and to his amusement, he finds posts and comments by angry chefs exclaiming and asking the question, "where are all the nice clients?".
[deleted] 5y ago
Fuck that definition of "Nice Guy". Women know 100% what they're doing when they let a guy carry their groceries and feed their cat. It's not reasonable to expect other people to do these things, just because. In fact, nobody does anything without expecting some benefit.
They ALSO know that, by not sleeping with these men and still enjoying these benefits, they're robbing another woman of this man's provider qualities while robbing the man of a chance to get laid with another woman. It's just a dick move.
Lastly, if Nice Guys are so horrible, why would women even let them carry their groceries and feed their cats? Who the fuck keeps people around for favors if they don't even like them?
It's insane that women found a way to demonize men who value them enough to invest effort into "earning" sex. 100% Certain this is a projection of their own low self image caused by letting guys bang them for nothing.
Show me a chick who shames "Nice Guys" and I'll show you a chick who had multiple one night stands and who is incapable of having a stable relationship.
[deleted] 5y ago
Bravo, very well said!
[deleted] 5y ago
You have to understand, the negative connotations that are now associated with "Nice Guys" have nothing to do with me but aspects of mainstream social media now. I have to adapt to this and the best way I can think of representing a demographic of men who represent a system of true values and decent traits is through the Good Men trope that is beginning to emerge. All we can do is hope now that this new narrative does not get distorted into something else.
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Yes I agree ... to an extent. Of course, some men engage in benevolent activities with the most honest of intentions and it's not the case that they deserve to be treated in a negative way but this is what happens. But we have to ask what other characteristics do these men have that could result in some form of consequence "other to" insulting angry third wave feminists who distort their agenda into one of "benevolent sexism" that can be explained by a patriarchal apparatus? Well, they make dating harder for other men who don't want to demonstrate subservience to get women:
Rick_OShay1 5y ago
Tell me, in your book, are "nice guys" and "good men" one and the same?
I tell people that I am "good man", and people, especially feminists, tend to translate that as a "nice guy".
They then say that "nice guys"="Incels". And then they claim that "Incels"* are all "closet mass shooters".
*Male ones only. Female incels are innocent victims of the evil patriarchy.
[deleted] 5y ago
"Nice guys" are men who display qualities that women deep inside know they should be looking for if they want a stable relationship, but they don't feel sexually attracted to these men.
When women use these men for utility and validation, I think this causes inner conflict and some kind of self hate that they project onto this group of men.
Imagine if there were perfectly fine women trying to convince you that they're relationship quality. They treat you like a king and would totally drain your balls given the opportunity. But you can't help but be attracted to abusive, batshit crazy BPD women who treat you like shit.
You'd have to either work on your own issues OR rationalize your crazy women fetish by telling yourself that there is something wrong with the "good" women.
It's hamsters all the way down, my friends!
Rick_OShay1 5y ago
I love it. :)
[deleted] 5y ago
No I try to distinguish "good men" from the negative connotations associated with "nice guys". If somebody tells me it is the same thing I will ask them why and then debunk them on that particular argument.
Rick_OShay1 5y ago
Basically, one is genuine, and the other is faking it, right? Or am I translating all these terms incorrectly?
[deleted] 5y ago
In a nut-shell that is sort of the case. But because there are more subtle ways "nice guy" tendencies can emerge I try to draw out more details here and provide a deeper conception of "good men" than that. For example there is being "genuinely nice" and then there is actually having spine, character as well as that. I want to emphasise that there are good men who are genuinely nice but with spine, character, etc. so feminists can't just use this as an excuse for when they fall behind in dating. I say these things because if you don't have a more sophisticated defence, you are just going to get derailed by feminists and other detractors.
[deleted] 5y ago
Question for op. But is giving up ever a winning situation?
Because the dating market is run by women you just can't fold all your cards and expect to be happy. Isnt there another way?
[deleted] 5y ago
I don't know if I would call it a "winning situation" but if I decide to call it quits (which I plan to at thirty) I can just have some fun with escorts and be content at least that some guys get sucked into toxic marriages then have to go through shitty divorce. At least none of that will happen to me if I choose to walk away from the dating game. I also know I won't have surrendered my principles by contributing to the validation of the female ego like so many other guys do.
GlobalHawk_MSI 5y ago
Sorry for late reply bro. At that point at least you stand among men (and women) that still believes that virtue, honor, respect, and goodness still has a place in this world. The ones that still did not lose their honor and identity and their selves.
I have a suggestion though. B4 calling quits to the dating game that is more buggy than every Bethesda game combined, why not save up and give travelling a try when you feel like it. Visit different countries and if you don't mind try this what incels call as "just go to SEA bro" (interesting thing is that i happen to live in that particular area of Asia).
See the places and the people of wherever you visit. Or the beaches if you are in a tropical country. Or the mountains. Then visit some clubs (nothing to worry if you are a tourist) if you feel like it. At least it would help you to convince yourself that maybe your travelling is one of your chances to prove that maybe this blue ball still has one thing to offer for you. Maybe this world still has a chance to change for the better for all of us. Maybe this sick society we live in has a chance to be more nice to anyone, one that no longer need wacko incels to exist.
And maybe, just maybe, maybe the one for you may be another continent away (I'm starting to think of this, and I'm just 23), maybe that one could be a neighbor of mine should you wanna visit the PH. In that case I know it's hard for someone in your position. But if you can save up enough, just take this one last opportunity. If you wanna call the dating world quits, just at least get out of it with a bang by you know, hit it with your best shot and visit places, but still with positivity in the mind. If you feel like maybe that cookie among the trash is there, rinse and repeat till you found it.
And regardless, we will still spread the value of good virtues till the days of our death.
Should you take this one last blaze of glory, it requires you to think outta the box and an open-mind (travelling yo!) since as people age, preferences mostly change too.
You could PM though. I love helping people too (I indirectly helped an incel change his ways successfully, he's an online memer friend)
[deleted] 5y ago
Funnily enough, this is what I have in mind for once I finish my degree.
GlobalHawk_MSI 5y ago
Who knows, we could meet if you paid my country a visit. Just finish that degree and think of your options bro. With your level of intellect it aint possible that you won't finish it.
Quitting the bullet-holed dating game may be inevitable for you but there is nothing wrong with going out with a blaze of glory. Maybe along the way fate will pull a love prank on you and suddenly.......
That's what I did when i changed major from comsci to IT. I know I will fail but I rather attend the finals with a low score rather than not. More honorable to fall like a warrior.
[deleted] 5y ago
Man, you know I like you, but this post is pretty tone-deaf and it doesn’t put you in the best light. Let alone the fact that you’re comparing a woman to a literal piece of meat, you’re essentially describing your experience as “I’ve been sitting here waiting and nobody’s delivered my pretty girlfriend yet!!!” Women, unlike steaks, have agency and choices of their own; people have to choose each other for relationships to happen.
I’m not saying the underlying point behind the analogy is necessarily wrong, but can you see how this looks a bit like the entitled “nice guy” stereotype that you are critiquing? You don’t order women off a menu.
It seems like you are writing this to justify to someone (I don’t know if it’s us or yourself) why you feel disillusioned and want to withdraw. I am sorry to hear that but I don’t think you owe anybody, least of all random people on reddit, an explanation if you feel like getting out of “the business of eating out.” There are tons of ways to be happy in the world and if something’s just causing you anxiety and frustration, nobody would blame you for walking away. I wouldn’t anyway, although I do like the journals.
Happy to hear school is going well!
[deleted] 5y ago
No worries and thank you.
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The analogy was more relevant to the Chef because it is the chef who is technically the woman. But the way things have been economically organised in a competitive individualistic society, they both provide something of value. The client provides money (which in S/RMV terms is time and investment into making himself the best he can) and the Chef provides something in return which is actually time, investment and so forth. But this is represented by a steak.
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It's more about how the man has been providing time, investment continually and lured in with the false promise of some kind of intimate connection but mostly denied and then when it comes it seems stale so the man begins to lose interest, whereas the woman (in this scenario) then acts like he should be grateful for what he is being offered.
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Well this is kind of my point with the thing in the fourth paragraph down (after the link drops and the bold / italic font). The SRUGM is angry about how he has been treated in this scenario but at a loss for words so when he tries to present his case he is accused of being an "entitled "nice guy" stereotype" because nobody understands where he's coming from.
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My point is that people tend to like discussing what's going on. Kind of like with the food review thing people like to give "dating reviews". And for various reasons, to get something off their chest, to find help with a solution-oriented approach and so forth.
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I think from the SRUGMs perspective there will always be something "missing" from this point on. This can be explained through the following link drop why people might suffer from an absence of emotional and physical intimacy (it is about the psychology of isolation):
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Psychology of Isolation
Relevant time-stamps (for drawing a causal link between isolation and depression):
Also, see physical effects of isolation:
And plenty more stuff later on in the video, this is just a good place to start.
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And plenty more stuff later on in the video, this is just a good place to start.
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Work productivity loss from depression: evidence from an employer survey
Relevant quotations (for drawing a causal link between depression and loss of workplace productivity):