Two things women often say about marriage:
--most couples are meeting when the woman is in her early to mid 20s, and then marrying when she's in her mid to late 20s. That means they're not riding the carousel, and they're more likely to have successful marriages.
--most couples are marrying later so they can both further their educations and careers, and "mature and grow up". This also makes for more successful marriages.
I will try to go back and source this later. I fully concede the surveys do show that people are, on average, reporting dating longer, living together longer, and marrying later. On average, the time from meeting to marriage is anywhere from 3.5 to 4.9 years, depending on the survey. The last major reported one was 4.9 years from first meeting to marriage. The surveys also show that one of the best ways to make a marriage "divorce resistant" is that both the man and woman are college educated. Both the duration from meeting to marriage and education level are supposed to indicate maturity levels and general preparedness for marriage, which in turn is supposed to predict marital longevity and health.
My counterarguments are:
1) These are surveys, meaning there's not much that's really scientific about it other than perhaps the sample size and selection. They're asking people what they did and what they plan to do or would do. There's not a lot of confidence in self reporting.
2) These claims are valid only if "successful marriage" is defined as "they didn't divorce". Just because a marriage doesn't end in divorce doesn't mean it was or is "successful". It doesn't mean either party is getting what they want. It doesn't mean the man is getting more sex, frequent sex, or sex the way he wants.
Just because he's in a relationship, doesn't mean it's a good one. Women frequently say "well, if he's in a relationship or marriage, it MUST be a good one, or else he'd just get out of it and leave." Not so. Most men have few to no options. Most men don't understand their options. Most men don't understand how female nature or female sexual attraction work. For a lot of men, divorcing an abusive spouse is cost prohibitive. Women use all of these things to full advantage, while at the same time projecting their own expectations and conduct onto men.
3) The demographic for which divorce is lowest is where both are college educated, and that's 17% divorce rate. That means 83% stay married. But a good portion of these couples are staying together because they have so much to lose in a divorce, not because they really WANT to stay together. Both will likely take huge financial hits. She will take a status hit. Women have to work following divorce because child support and alimony won't make ends meet. Divorced women are often in financial straits. Men stay married because they don't want to live in their cars for a year and because shitty, once every other month sex is better than no sex at all. Women stay married because they don't want the standard of living downgrade or the status downgrade.
4) This works only for a small subset of the American population. an LTR or marriage has the best chance of not ending in divorce only if all of the following apply to both spouses: They are both:
--white or East Asian
--college educated
--employed or easily employable
--followers of the same religion and practice it at least semi regularly
--she has a relatively low premarital N (3 or less)
Most marriages today are missing one or more of these ingredients, particularly her low N. (Which means she's still doing at least a little carousel riding, unless ALL of her sex partners were long term relationships, which isn't the case for most women. The vast majority of women take a spin or three on the carousel.) It's well known that female N highly correlates to cheating risk. In general there's a direct relationship between N and cheating risk: The higher her N, the greater the risk she'll cheat on her husband.
There's a direct relationship between reported female N and divorce risk. Generally, the higher her N, the greater the risk of divorce. (There's an anomalous result where her premarital N=2 is 50% risk, which has yet to be explained, but it does not negate the overall trend and results.)
5) Most marriages that stay together are not "good" marriages. They are "average" at best. And for most women, "average" is not good enough. In my opinion and observation, overall marital satisfaction percentages are probably like this:
--10%: Excellent marriages, where both are self actualizing and improving, sex is very good and frequent, sexual attraction is mutual, strong and sustained; few to no marital stressors, and there are only a few minor problems that are easily worked out.
--10%: Good marriages. The sex is good but less frequent, minor problems routinely arise, minor marital stressors.
--50%: Average marriages. Most of these people compromised heavily to get married, or have some unreasonable expectations. She settled deeply on sexual attraction. This is the usual beta bux marriage. Both sides are "settling in" to the marriage. They're letting themselves go physically or otherwise. Average sex which is declining. Sexual attraction is waning, especially hers to him. Major stressors routinely arise, which are dealt with. Maybe some cheating going on, usually undetected. These marriages are just plodding along in ruts but they are doing OK and not in any major danger as long as they can hold the line where they are and no major changes happen.
The problem is that these marriages can rarely improve into "good" and can easily slip into "Bad". These marriages are one calamity away from "bad" to "very bad". A job loss, a dead bedroom, or a major unresolved stressor - any of these can send a marriage downward. Men can usually handle "average". Women can't. Women have exceedingly high, unreasonable expectations of marriage. "Average" just isn't good enough, and she'll eventually get quite resentful stuck in an "average" marriage.
--20%: Bad marriages. These people probably should not have married, or married for the wrong reasons. Sex very infrequent, close to or at dead bedroom. Attraction is more or less gone. There is major dissatisfaction on one or both parts, it isn't getting resolved, and one or both are just living with it. Those dissatisfactions are developing into resentments. Major stressors routinely arise and only some are dealt with, most ineffectively. One or both are probably cheating or seriously considering it.
--10%: Very bad marriages. These are two people who weren't right for each other and should never have married. These couples can barely stand each other. Dead bedroom. Attraction is gone or never existed. Major stressors are present all the time and never get resolved. Full on resentment on one side, frequently both sides. One or both are cheating. They're staying together for the kids or because they'll live in abject poverty if they divorce.
So, if you marry and stay married, odds are you'll have an "average" marriage, where one or both of you are making major compromises that you're unhappy with, and the sex is OK at best.
Give us your thoughts in the comments.
[deleted] 3y ago
Marriages are meant to grant a woman security and a man (artificial) loyalty. They were designed to ensure men would work hard and women would make lots of babies, thereby encouraging a prosperous society. That design has been deemed outdated, so there also the outcome and desired result is very different. Men no longer benefit from an illusion of loyalty and women no longer need security. The entire relationship is based on how the woman feels about it, not whether the man has provided its good working order.
Analysts are now coming out of the wood work to make heads-and-tails about the collapsing state of affairs, but none of them really have a handle on what happened. They think it's due to changes in societal expectations and roles, but really its due to an overabundance of feminine support at the expense of masculine agency. That is the real reason why marriages fail and couples are unhappy. At least that is the root of the problems that plague and will continue to degenerate the circus that is the modern marriage compact.
CakeSVK 3y ago
Well thanks to you guys here I opened my eyes somewhat. Im 18 and come from a very conservative country in europe so my parents are expecting me to get married. I was looking forward to that but seeing the facts that its not all sunshine and rainbows made me warry of the traps and problems of marriage. If I will ever marry my wife will need to know about these kind of things as well and probably id be happier if we ever stayed only boyfriend and girlfriend. That way if on party messes up the other doesnt have to suffer. Thanks a lot Im very thankful ( sorry if my english is garbage its not my first language)
DeeplyDisturbed1 3y ago
You are in the right place /r/Cakesvk
While marriage is not our main theme, it is certainly a common enough talking point here.
What you will get here that you will find hard to find elsewhere is a very practical analysis of women's words - especially during the dating years. Knowing the stories of most of the moderators here they have all been through horrible circumstances with women. Most importantly though, they have come through it and remain good men.
So stick around and listen to their stories. You will learn a lot.
Also - Do NOT get married under any circumstances. Your parents will not pay the price, YOU will. You cannot say you weren't warned.
[deleted] 3y ago
This post really applies only to the state of relationships in the United States. I can't speak to the situation in your country.
I-am-the-lul 3y ago
It applies to most other western countries, only the flavour of the divorce-rape varies.
CakeSVK 3y ago
Still doesnt cause harm to take care and know these kind of things
BewareTheOldMan 3y ago
You have to be the woman's FIRST CHOICE and better/best choice for a husband versus some guy she's marrying simply because she's "ready to settle down" and has no other options or husband prospects.
This is why a woman's age and N-count matters very much in dating and possible future marriage. The higher the age and N-count, the higher risk that the husband will end up in a terrible or unfaithful marriage... or both.
molossus99 3y ago
When I married, my wife was 7 years older than me (I was 28, she was 35). Both white, college educated. She had an N=12, including one prior marriage. Bedroom went dead soon after marriage (about 3-4 years in).
Years 4-14, only had sex about 2-3 times a year, max, some years none or once. Not from lack of interest on my part. I finally caught her cheating 12 years into marriage, but fairly sure she had been cheating for years prior. Divorced soon after. I guess we are in the 17% category.
[deleted] 3y ago
Sorry to hear that. You stuck it out 14 years....
A huge part of the problem was her age and her being divorced. 35 year old divorcee- no kids? This is a woman in full on panic mode. Needs commitment AND having an unbelievable case of baby rabies. Women like this are dangerous as fuck. You're lucky you got out with anything.
A smaller part of the problem was the age differential. No man should ever marry any woman who is more than 2 years older than he is.
BewareTheOldMan 3y ago
Damn - that sucks. I hope you got out free and clear, and without too much damage.
molossus99 3y ago
Not really. Also found out she forged my name to a $140,000 loan that she took out and the proceeds were never accounted for.
She also served me with the divorce papers on April Fools day, 5 weeks prior to my doctoral program prelim exams. The divorce doc made wild accusations and required me to spend stupid amount of time in legal hell — so I had to choose between fighting it and spending tons of time in legal hell or ignoring it, prepping for exam but then risk custody crap. Chose to fight it, but the time it took to do so took tons of time away from exam prep which fucked my doctoral program progress. She later sent me a note saying it was win-win for her : either I lose custody by not fighting it or I get fucked in program if I do fight.. all of this anger because I caught her fucking her boss for several years.. evil harpy.
fishingwithachainsaw 3y ago
Dude that is vile, thanks for sharing and keeping many of us from going down that path
BewareTheOldMan 3y ago
Damn - that's just evil... AND she was banging her boss. Some women should never have the privilege of marriage - they simply don't deserve it.
molossus99 3y ago
Amen
[deleted] 3y ago
You forgot to triple, or quintuple any count women gives.
[deleted] 3y ago
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I-am-the-lul 3y ago
Both sides are gynocentric in their own way, but the right is slightly less anti-male...
[deleted] 3y ago
No ideal woman exists in a society that encourages her promiscuity and deliverance from responsibility. In our current climate, you will only find a woman that thinks she wants a conservative/traditional lifestyle because the alternative is working at a menial job. As soon as the thought of that job is a better prospect than working for her husband, she's out. Of course, they go off to ride the CC and realize the grass wasn't exactly greener, but now it's just the mans' fault her life turned out upside down. Can't win, so why bother starting the race?!
[deleted] 3y ago
I don't want play the game already rigged against me.
[deleted] 3y ago
Away team disadvantage with the peanut gallery yelling obscenities and hoping you die while home team starts 10 points on the board and +5 handicap.
Platinum247365 3y ago
My father is in the 10% of those "very bad" marriages. He still wants me to "find the right one".
I-am-the-lul 3y ago
Your father assumed he was unlucky, he doesn't realise that all of these women are like that.
Platinum247365 3y ago
I get so tired of hearing "just find the right person". Everyone thinks that - at first. They always think they found the right person.
[deleted] 3y ago
"Don't end up like me, but also do the very thing I did to get here."
NoFaithInThisSub 3y ago
Alda were you ever married mate?
I always like your posts.
[deleted] 3y ago
24 years and counting.
Thank you much.
NoFaithInThisSub 3y ago
Oh good stuff. Guess I can keep learning from you. I got destroyed after 4 months. I have much to learn.
MGTOWManofMystery 3y ago
This isn't that Purple Pill debate subreddit...
DeeplyDisturbed1 3y ago
OP is a mod. And a very intelligent and highly respected one at that.
So he can post whatever he wishes. You should read the piece and learn.
MGTOWManofMystery 3y ago
I stand corrected. A good read indeed.
[deleted] 3y ago
The point is that these are things women at that place and others say about how marriages are actually formed, in an effort to convince you that the carousel isn't a thing and that "oh, the things you Terpers complain about are so uncommon". Well, the carousel IS a thing (the vast, vast majority of women have at least tried it out) and marital problems ARE common. How I've laid it out are the real reasons why the marriages that stay together, stay together.
Men MUST learn to look beyond what appears to be and get down to what actually is.
DeeplyDisturbed1 3y ago
Agreed. It may not be obvious to younger men, but this discussion includes (clearly to me):
I will stop there.
This is spot on.
[deleted] 3y ago
That is the place where these two fallacious ideas are propagated, yes. I'm pointing out the flaws in their claims.
[deleted] 3y ago
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[deleted] 3y ago
No senseless debating. Either bring a good discussion with your well researched opinion or shut the fuck up so the adults don't have to speak over you.
[deleted] 3y ago
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[deleted] 3y ago
LMAO, your 6 words were just over my head I guess. Goodbye.