How to communicate needs and problems to others without undermining his leadership or damaging his authority is an ongoing challenge for men in general, but especially for reforming Betas who are newly unplugging. Many are stuck in a pattern of thinking there's a simple continuum between passive and aggressive, which suggests the only direction for improvement from a history of passiveness is toward aggression. This raises certain questions: How can I learn not to be a passive Beta Man without turning into that asshole? How can I decisively lead in my social group, family, workplace, and relationship without causing resentments and unnecessarily hurt feelings by upping my aggression to get my way? The solution lies in a new dimension: Assertiveness.
Assertiveness means standing for and expressing your own needs and position, WHILE being aware and respectful of the other person's needs, position, and authority.
A widely misunderstood concept. Many people are wary of the concept of assertiveness, largely because it becomes conflated with aggression. Some of the early champions of the idea in the early 70s earned a poor reputation by recommending techniques that amounted to passive aggression, active aggression, or were just downright annoying; the Broken Record Technique comes to mind. The concept of Assertiveness has become refined over the decades, and can have a positive effect on all relationships in our lives. Assertiveness isn't automatically emasculating or submissive as an alternative to aggression, nor does it mean affecting an annoying salesperson-like or abrasive, hyper-dominant persona.
Assertiveness is a way to maintain frame that helps you get your way, but charismatically, not by intimidation or brute (verbal) force. It can end up making others want to do what you want them to do, rather than out of coercion, shame, or other negative (thus on the aggressive continuum) social pressures. Even its proponents and beneficiaries often don't fully understand the concept. Assertiveness is almost like an orphan life skill; many of us pick up elements as we go, and we can all benefit from it, but it's seldom formally taught or understood.
A recent insight I had into the nature of assertiveness
You're probably familiar with the idea that the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. Indifference is in a different, cooler plane than the heated polar opposites of love and hate, and is thus opposite of *both.**
Love <------------> Hate
\ /
\ /
Indifference
I realized that in a very similar manner, the opposite of passivity isn't aggression; the opposite of both passive AND aggressive is ASSERTIVE.
Assertive
/ \
/ \
Passive <-----> Aggressive
Because it works both upward and downward in a hierarchy, and usually satisfies all parties, it's as though assertiveness exists in a higher plane than aggression and passivity.
How does assertiveness work? A functional leadership or Captain role frequently requires facts to be proactively brought to the Captain's attention, but this can always be done in a manner that respects his authority. When a Captain addresses his subordinates with assertiveness instead of aggression, it can actually increase their respect and loyalty over purely authoritarian methods. Assertiveness can be used by both parties while maintaining a hierarchy of roles. This is because assertiveness means expressing your own needs, while understanding and respecting the position of the other party. It seeks win-win outcomes, and by its very nature takes away the root cause of most conflicts, clashes, and power struggles, for it leads to interpersonal transactions with outcomes that both parties desire and work toward.
Why do I need to learn assertiveness? Carefully scaled aggressiveness has its place in attraction, initial boundary establishment, certain defined roles (Officer/soldier, boss/employee, parent/child, Dom/sub), and average or baseline behavior on an ongoing basis as a long-term Captain of a relationship. However, in more developed, therefore complicated relationships, pure unbalanced aggression becomes a hinderance to a smooth-running hierarchy of power. It might frustrate and anger the same SO/First mate in some contexts while it attracts and pleases her in others.
Where aggression is often expedient in the short term, such as in an emergency, management of all types of long-term relationships becomes easier when the well-being of the subordinants is considered in the Captain's decisions. Assertiveness is a tool that accomplishes this automatically, and is a way to balance raw Alpha energy without swinging in the direction of a supplicating Beta.
This is functional, streamlined, the First Mate or subordinants have involvement and a stake in the final choices, and the Captain still maintains his ultimate authority without being burdened by details he's delegated or extra work dealing with the effects of bruised feelings and egos around him.
Examples of different approaches to various life situations
Situation | Passive | Passive-aggressive | Aggressive | Assertive |
---|---|---|---|---|
Dishes left in kitchen sink | Says nothing, internalizes the problem with depression, psychosomatic ailments | 1 complains more loudly about something different, 2 leaves his own dirty dishes somewhere important to her | "You're such a slob! Always leaving dishes in the sink!" | Could you please at least rinse the dishes after each meal like we discussed? |
GF stays out later & later on Ladies Nights | Same as above | 1 Same 2 "I'm going to start going out late too..." | You're always staying out late! I demand that you stop! | I'm having X problem when you stay out so late, let's talk about it when we get home tonight. |
Guys in next campsite blaring music your direction | Same as above | Turns own music genre up ridiculously loud | "Turn that shit down, asshole!" (fight or passive aggression all weekend ensues) | "Hey guys, I notice the music is pointing away from you and toward me. Let's get it turned toward you so you can enjoy your music and I can hear mine inside the motorhome." |
Woman cuts in line | Roll eyes, makes scolding noises to nobody in particular | Hide two of her groceries in the magazine rack when she isn't looking | "I was here first, bitch!" <pushes cart ahead of her roughly> | Excuse me, the line forms back here, perhaps you didn't notice... |
Subordinate still not doing task you ordered | Ignore situation and fume | Complain to spouse about situation after work, randomly cause difficulty for the person | "You're still not getting X done like I told you, what are you, stupid or lazy?" | "John, what was the conversation we had about doing X?" |
Wife's hair is sticking out funny | Make brushing gestures on own hair | Ignore it, let her embarass herself | Jeez, you look like a homeless person! You'd be a mess without me watching out for you! | Sweetie, you should look at your hair before you go out. |
Pulled over for speeding | Fumes internally, pays fine, yells at kids when they want something needing money | "Other people were going that fast you know!" | "Why are you picking on me? Don't you have real criminals to catch?" | "Gosh, that sounds pretty fast all right. Here's my license and insurance, check me out and see what you need to do here." |
Boss chews you out for situation not your fault | Accept rant, take out frustration on subordinates | Open a can of sardines behind his desk drawer | "I'm doing the best I can out here, now it's like you're picking on me!" | "I share your frustration with that outcome. Instead of recriminations, let's see how we can fix this." |
AMOGger takes over weights you were using | Fume about it, join a different gym | Piss through the louvers of his locker next time he's there; sneak off with a weight he needs | "Hey, wait your turn, asshole!" | "Hey big guy, I'm John. If you want to work in let me know, I'll stay and help spot you. What's your name?" |
Assertiveness is a form of communication that transcends the passive-aggressive dynamic and is compatible with long-lasting, healthy Captain-First Mate relationships and strong, charismatic leadership roles.
Assertiveness is poorly understood, but is a valuable concept for women seeking healthy, harmonious long-term relationships in life and a system for communicting within a balanced, respectful power structure.
If your Alpha Game is well calibrated, but you find your SO or subordinates are submissive to a fault and are inhibited from communicating with you when you need, direct them to this article's complement, Assertiveness for Women ^^Edit:Format
[deleted] 7y ago
IMO, I believe assertiveness is proper channeled aggression, aggressive behavior happens when aggressive feelings are not channeled properly, but anyway, I believe both aggressiveness and assertiveness are superior to passive-aggressiveness and passiveness.
socio_j 7y ago
Brilliant post! Will definitely learn and apply this!
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[deleted] 7y ago
This is one of the best posts I've ever seen on the sub in over a year of reading. The skillful balance of asserting your needs and goals while taking other people into consideration is the definition of leadership. Because the best way to get what you want out of people is to make them want it.
Thank you.
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drallcom3 7y ago
If you take the swearword out of your aggressive examples it's exactly what you should say. Really like firmly telling a child to stop or do something. No long explanations or filler words.
In most of your examples it's your own fault btw. Being in a shitty relationship, job or location. My not so cheap gym is lovely and my boss recently praised me for "telling him that something's shit" in front of 100 people. Don't do that if you earn minimum wage. Rethink your life instead.
[deleted] 7y ago
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ColonelMitchell 7y ago
I think the "find another coffee shop" might have been a little agressive. However, I wasn't there so I can't really make much judgement on tone or how they acted.
colmatterson 7y ago
Were you doing it just to say no, or did you actually have a valid reason for preferring where you were already sitting?
[deleted] 7y ago
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colmatterson 7y ago
It isn't a surprising question, though, is it? Your answer is plenty fair. Something I think RP's sometimes take too far is "frame". It doesn't mean having to lose your own frame necessarily just to help someone else out - " you " in the general meaning, not personal. That was why I asked.
Eyeswears 7y ago
I think it was a better fit for your needs and theirs to switch spots. Maybe not ideal for both, but better than it turned out.
[deleted] 7y ago
That's problem with people sometimes. When pressed for a "valid reason", they immediately think there must be one, and if they can't think of one, they feel stupid and guilty, and they end up changing their behavior. There is value in just saying, "No.", and leaving it at that. You don't need to have a "valid reason", eg, "Well, sir, I arrived here earlier, and I, uh, have all this work to do, and I, uh, come to this spot all the time." Just stop.
colmatterson 7y ago
Guess what?
I agree with that.
Did you know that you can ask people questions from a pov not necessarily your own, in order to better understand their pov better? So, lecturing to someone whom you know nothing about?
Just stop.
[deleted] 7y ago
great post. society gets this so wrong and doesn't really teach this. I really noticed in the examples that the assertive response tends to result in the best outcome for all parties, and always makes the speaker look good.
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workyoursteps 7y ago
Get access to Lynda.com and listen to the course on being assertive by Chris Croft.
uNhoLeee 7y ago
Examples sound passive aggressive to me. Lets say your on a date. Date is late. Submissive- nothing. Aggressive - why are you late. Assertive - When youre late you're telling me my time is not important. Next time do x. Response to aggressive - why are you late? Assertive -Im here now..would you like to continue . Submissive - explaining/pleading. Aggressive - defensive excuses. Overall assertiveness is a good trait
BlackJ1 7y ago
"Excuse me, the line forms back here, perhaps you didn't notice..."
I'm feeling a little bit of passive-aggressiveness here...
[deleted] 7y ago
No, he's pointing out the problem directly. But the "perhaps you didn't notice" gives it a passive agressive air.
HobKing 7y ago
I felt hints of passive-aggression in a fair number of the assertive quotes. The "at least" in the dishes one, the "big guy" in the weights one...
Solid post, though. The thrust of it is absolutely crucial.
snorted_the_red_pill 7y ago
Yeah, so did I. I suppose tone and vocabulary is a big part of communication though - you can say it condescendingly or you can say it in a spirit of cooperation.
[deleted] 7y ago
There is an alternative way to interpret the "Perhaps you didn't notice" portion. Some lines/queues can become genuinely convoluted, and so the person could have made a mistake. Additionally, providing an excuse for rude behavior allows the other person to correct their behavior without accepting public rebuke.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 7y ago
It's hard to judge the tone through text only here, but allowing the person that opportunity is one of the underlying goals here. It's worded to allow her an opportunity to save face, which is part of taking the other person's position into account, and an important factor in whether others consider your actions charismatic leadership or rude aggression after the fact.
BlackJ1 7y ago
Assertiveness and sarcasm don't mix well together. I see sarcasm as passive-aggressive behavior, however others may not.
Regardless, I'm more than sure if a woman cuts you in line it's not because she didn't notice the line. She knows full well there is a line and that stepped in front you.
Saying perhaps she didn't notice the line is redundant.
brmpbrmp 7y ago
Sarcasm is the protest of the weak
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colmatterson 7y ago
Out of curiosity, would you offer different examples of passive, aggressive, or assertive responses if the person cutting was a man? Since the example used a woman cutting in line, and RP is so much about gender, it seems like a pertinent question.
Edit: I ask because this is directly related to how one would, or even SHOULD, communicate with men v women. That should be obvious, but to anyone that disagrees I ask Why.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 7y ago
The only difference would be "Jackass" instead of "bitch." By addressing the line cutter with dignity and offering a chance to save face, there is a strong chance they will comply and even mutter an apology.
People EXPECT you to open with aggression, and they're usually ready with aggression of their own to match it. They are already acting with passive aggression by line-cutting; active aggression is right beneath the surface.
These are not abstract notions I'm typing out, I've done A-B testing of both ways over decades and actually experienced the short-term outcome and long-term effects of each.
p00pey 7y ago
Using examples here will inevitably cause people to fall down rabbit holes getting into minutia. Every man has his own style. THe key takeaway here is to be assertive, not angry, not passive aggressive, not a beta bitch that just takes it etc. There are an infinite combinations of words one can use to get their assertiveness across. Body language is also very key. No need to argue semantics, the overall point is what is important, and very valid. Assertive people are always recognized for their confidence, not just by those they are addressing, but also others around them...THough every once in a while you just have to put your foot down, depending on the situation, and get aggressive. There's a time and a place for that as well...
[deleted] 7y ago
is it really so bad to not care about someone cutting in front of you?
Confronting some queue jumper really seems like a waste of time. It's a fucking queue. They're going to argue with you or ignore you. Any energy spent on that situation is wasted.
[deleted] 7y ago
I would say it depends on the end goal. There are some situations where the majority of the people in the queue are silently hostile towards the person cutting in, and publicly reprimanding that person can inspire people to be more assertive in their own lives.
On a personal level, I am not that bothered by people cutting in, except that it is rude and inconsiderate. The total cost to myself is minimal however and I see little reason to intervene.
[deleted] 7y ago
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CQC3 7y ago
Someone negged you, I have no idea why, that shit was fucking funny.
666mafioso 7y ago
Personally I don't mind it under three circumstances: When the person has considerably less items than I do, when I'm the only person in line (and the first point applies to a certain degree), and if the person has an emergency (such as a crying baby or a dog waiting in an insulating car). However if none of these points apply, I firmly grab their arm or shoulder and tell them "Excuse me, I was in line. Show me some respect." This usually is responded with a nod and a scurrying to the back of the line, or a reply of their situation which If it falls into the three categories, I nod them and motion with an open palm to go ahead.
However there was an instance where a woman with a basket full of random shit proceeded to give me the side eye, give me a snarky laugh, and not move. I grabbed her wrist firmly and held it high above her head (like I sometimes do when my girl is being pouty and giving me a hard time) in which she started struggling and cussing at me. The cashier asked what was the problem and the dude behind me put his hand on my shoulder. I still held her wrist and directly addressed the cashier that, "She cut in line. We all have places to be." By this time everyone within the vicinity was staring at us, and I could see security coming in through the sliding doors. Another employee came up behind us, and told the lady "I can help you over here" and proceeded to open up another check out line just for this bitch. I let her go after that. I don't think I could've handled that situation any better (assertiveness, escalation into controlled and minimal force) and although the bitch smirked at me on the way out (while I was still in line) the cashier and the security guard in front gave me a understanding nod when I was checking out and leaving.
It is essential to be assertive, but also know that you might not always get your way per se. Just take them as personal victories and a stepping stone of momentum to becoming more ALPHA.
lnTheRearWithTheGear 7y ago
That sounds like a lose-lose scenario, and a good example of being aggressive, not assertive. You're laying hands on another person - a woman in particular - and will only attract negative attention towards yourself. Even though she was in the wrong, you will turn yourself into the bad guy, a target for white knights, by being physically aggressive.
You made ridiculous, childish demands ("respect me!") and escalated from verbal to physical aggression. Maybe you're happy with the outcome, but you certainly didn't "win" the confrontation.
666mafioso 7y ago
I admit I was the "loser" in the situation, but I disagree with your sentiment that I was being aggressive. As I stated, I don't mind others cutting in line as long as it falls under the three categories. I informed the lady initially with a hand on her shoulder and the words, "Excuse me, you cut in line. Show me some respect." Very different than "respect me!" (more "Why?" than anything) because I gave her the opportunity to explain her situation, or move back in line. She chose not to acknowledge me or the people behind me in line and I proceeded to assert my point of view. I did not hit her, push her, nor have any intention of hurting her physically. I restrained her in a way that would make what the police do look like Nazi's.
If you are constantly worried with what others are going to think before you act, is that really being assertive? What would you have done in the situation after she disregarded YOUR assertions? If you just "let it go", or even said "fuck you then", that would fall under the category of passiveness or aggression.
aDrunkenWhaler 7y ago
Putting your hand on her, however gentle, can be seen as aggresive and can get you in serious trouble. If the women would've started screaming and throwing a fit, best case scenario you would be thrown out by security. Worst case, visit to police station for some explaining. Never touch her.
If you want to handle it correctly, simply make it clear to her and the cashier that if she will not be sent to the end of the line you will file multiple complaints to management and her job will be at risk. The cashier will have no choice but to tell her to respect the line. If they will open a new check just for her, repeat the same threat. Start filming for dramatic effect. They won't do it. You will win, risk free.
BloodRedAlert 7y ago
It is like the hybrid of Robert Greene's 48 Laws of Power and Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People
randarrow 7y ago
Your table is missing the assertive column.
[deleted] 7y ago
Interesting model, I think of love, hate and indifference as 3 orthogonal vectors in a 3 dimensional space, where the orthogonality symbolises an opposite nature. Hence all three vectors are orthogonal to the other 2.
But regardless, excellent post. As someone who pre-TRP was on the passive side, and then moved to the aggressive side, I felt internally conflicted with my options, as there was no elegant way out of my problem. I didn't want to be a passive doormat, but I didn't enjoy using other people as doormats either (maybe that makes me blue pill, maybe it makes me human, who knows). I truly thought that I could only ever be at one of those extremes, and it led to a serious phase of my own depression and self-doubt. I only knew how to be the BB to everyone, or the asshole who insulted people over the smallest things. Even now, those wounds are still healing. It was truly paradigm shifting to realise that a third option exists where one can treat others with respect instead of passive obedience, and have the same returned to him. No more would I have to control people through anger or fear, and neither would I be at their mercy - it was wonderful. I've seen others argue that assertiveness lies between being passive and being aggressive on the spectrum, but I feel like it's more opposite to both of them, instead of being between them.
Anyway, good post, wish I could've seen this a few months ago, would have saved me a lot of unnecessary pain.
NeoreactionSafe 7y ago
Using the Kabbalistic terms one must find the balance between:
Severity
At some point there is a post to be done on this concept.
"The Twin Towers".
RedPillHanSolo 7y ago
This blows up in your face some time after (aggressive more so, to be fair). Passive-aggressive (i.e. going out yourself more) is the way to go here IMO.
p00pey 7y ago
It's funny you mention this, because a lot of what the RP crowd subscribes to is straight up passive agressive behavior. A lot of 'gaming' is exactly that, passive aggressive behavior. Thing is, this really feeds into the female psyche. They love the games, and doing passive aggressive shit is akin to playing games...
I personally don't care for that route, but no denying it gives them the tingles...
RedPillHanSolo 7y ago
I would even go so far as to say that could be a difference between Alpha 1.0 and Alpha 2.0 (latter being "game player")
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chronoxone 7y ago
While I like your formatting, the examples you've provided are terrible. A lot of the "aggressive" ones could be toned down and switched out for the assertive ones. You either sound far too timid, or like a disapproving woman. A good rule of thumb is the less words you need to say something, the better.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 7y ago
You're right, in the sense that the examples are pretty exaggerated, in order to provide clear examples of the four types that fit in small boxes.
The actual dialogue will emerge from each unique situation, but well-honed assertiveness looks different from aggression and timid passivity, and gets very different results compared to both. By carefully maintaining your own frame, and giving someone who has broken some social rule a chance to emerge from the situation with dignity, it elevates, rather than diminishes, the status of the leader who can be gracious instead of ruthless when others are cooperating.
True, carrying on TOO long with explanations, or DEERing, is not a hallmark of strong, effective leadership.
[deleted] 7y ago
offering plausible deniability
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 7y ago
That's an aspect of this, but the core concept is allowing the other party an opportunity to save face. This is a very important element of Japanese culture for example, but American culture emphasizes a clear winner/loser dynamic. Just the act of breaking out of this expected aggressive script can be enough to throw people off of their hostile track.
ItsTheHomeWrecker 7y ago
deleted ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^0.8383 ^^^What ^^^is ^^^this?
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 7y ago
It's an acronym for Defend, excuse, explain, rationalize.
CQC3 7y ago
I think this is a great post, if I could summarize what I got out of this, it's this:
Assertiveness is a combination of presence (as in being present) and imposition of will.
It carries with it an implication that all the typical things about a situation that people either react passively, passive-aggressively, or aggressively to are typically subjective emotional reactions. The assertive route is one that only someone who has complete control over himself can utilize, because it bypasses the emotional response and temptation to return in kind something that you think you should say based on how you perceive yourself/your persona. Instead, you simply impose your will over the situation in a way that seeks to find the most efficient solution to the problem while identifying it.
I think that a lot of these are representative of that Roosevelt quote "speak softly but carry a big stick". You're not concerned with the theatrics of what happened to you, you're only concerned about the problem that has arisen.
Personally, I think the well goes deeper on this one. Consider how people are far more concerned about the theatrics of the situation than the problem of the situation itself. We may not all go out and start problems or drama, but all of us have been or still are a little bit at the least attached to our positive and especially negative emotions. So much so that we focus on the superficiality of the problem instead of the actual solution.
Focusing on the superficiality of the problem rather than the solution. That means that somewhere in your mind you're actually more interested in the affectations of the problem than the actual resolution and outcome of it. What does this remind me of? Incels of course. Most incels care more about the idea of sex than sex itself. Do they actually care about fixing the real problem and just getting sex? or do they just carry on making sex the ultimate goal so they always have something to pine for and indulge in those emotions? They build their nest around that problem but without that problem their entire way of thinking or seeing things would essentially fall apart. In reality, if they get the sex they think so obsessively about, will they be left in the dust when they see this grand thing they build up is in fact really nothing at all?
That's just an example, to illustrate that to be assertive you need to be detached, to not be in love with the superficial aspects of the situation, so much so that you neither over indulge in it or push it away. You must be right there, square in the middle of it, directing and being an active force in the unfolding of it. And to do that you must be by default looking to be rid of it with sincerity.
fangsofanubis 7y ago
Dude, you just blew my mind with the incel sex analogy
iNeTriWenTd 7y ago
Sometimes we are on the verge to realize something because the last sparkle, which would fully light the bridge of understanding, is just lacking. You have shed light on a very important topic. Thank you very much for this quality post.
Ifuckinglovepron 7y ago
That's a long way of saying that assertiveness is frame. But solid post.
Saintmyname 7y ago
None of those examples are assertive. Assertive people are blunt and to the point. Assertive people would say "What, you forget how to wash dishes?" or "that music needs to be turned down." The person you're describing is not assertive, he's empathetic.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 7y ago
Your first example is definitely aggressive, and the second could be aggressive or assertive, contingent on contextual cues like tone, inflection, body language etc.
The examples are somewhat exaggerated to clearly contrast different styles in the shortest way possible. They probably won't do if you try to lift them as actual dialogue.
Empathy is definitely an component of successful assertive communication. In an actual encounter, a man would want to titrate empathy down to the minimum necessary amount necessary for that situation. The examples exaggerate this up to an obvious level for illustrative purposes.
colmatterson 7y ago
Those statements are both borderline hostile - aggressive. "What, you forgot how to wash dishes" is clearly rude and recriminating, and the second statement carries the implication of a threat. "This NEEDS to be done," otherwise there will be consequences. How do you not see that?
Assertiveness can be rude, if it needs to be, but an assertive person is not going to immediately be rude in a situation where he/she doesn't try other avenues of assertiveness first. Obviously for something like cleaning dishes there is no need to immediately be rude. I think a good way to think of assertiveness is "diplomacy". Diplomatic, your statements are not.
Saintmyname 7y ago
Assertiveness is dominance. Use humor or be direct. Hostility should always be implied. This is how I've always done it and how I do it. I've only recently even thought about it. Diplomacy doesn't factor in to the dominant male.
colmatterson 7y ago
Is this the prevalent view on RP, do you think?
[deleted] 7y ago
How would you handle a situation where your boss dumps a bunch of work on your lap 10 minutes before you're about to clock out? How would you be implicitly hostile and dominant in this position?
Saintmyname 7y ago
That never happens to me. I'm in sales and work when there are sales to be made. But if it did happen I would smile and say thanks then do what I was going to do anyway. I have a shit ton of utility at my work though.
[deleted] 7y ago
Yes, but what if you had plans at 5:00PM when you were supposed to get off? You can't just smile and ignore what your boss gave you after he presumably has asked you to stay after work. I'm asking you how to be assertive in that situation to get what you want (ie not do the work and get off on time). Not everyone gets to make their own schedule.
Saintmyname 7y ago
I mean you have to know what kind of person you're dealing with but I would probably say "I would love to do this but alas life stops for no man and it's time for me to find a phone booth and change outfits. Thanks for the opportunity though" but I would never have a job like that. I stay late all the time but only to make more money not because Lumberg wants me to.
NikoMyshkin 7y ago
whilst this is a decent post describing an important topic, it is hardly new:
OP sounds like he thinks he invented this concept.
p00pey 7y ago
every fucking thing on this sub is regurgitated, just like every piece of music, and damn near everything else in life...
would you prefer more random examples of slores doing slore things so we can all collectively yell AWALT!!!
YEAH!
colmatterson 7y ago
I agree with you that OP makes it sound like assertiveness is far less known that it actually is - I think many people understand assertiveness much more than he seems to claim - but for people only just learning to be assertive, there usually is a problem to over-compensate and become aggressive, trying too hard to not be passive.
That said, though, is there any reason he shouldn't have posted this? Helping others learn how to assert themselves is a valuable skill. Probably most of the posts on RP are "unoriginal" ideas, after all.
NikoMyshkin 7y ago
he should have presented it as a staple RP concept rather than something he (re)invented.
that was my only point, as spelt out in my post
cockstantino 7y ago
This post is beta as fuck as it follows civilized expectations and not the laws of nature. Good try though.
The problem is none of this works unless others see you as above them, which by definition doesn't happen with narcissists (ex. natural alphas & most women.) and people who live with you for long enough. The only way to get through to their heads is to use aggressiveness - which you also got wrong - as you should never threaten or insult them directly.
For example, AMOGger takes over weights you were using. Reply: Dude what the fuck?
Example: Subordinate still not doing task you ordered. Reply: The task isn't DONE! angry and disappointed stare. It's a simple fucking thing and you couldn't do it. disappointed 'what am I going to do with this idiot' exhale. Now you either do the task for them or assign it to someone else.
I'm surprised NeoreactionSafe hasn't jumped in to correct you yet on the law of nature.
P.S. this comes from experience being raised by narcissists. there's a subreddit for it if you're interested.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 7y ago
I disagree. So many people are accustomed to superior/inferior relationships that they automatically try to enter every encounter as the dominant party; matching this with an aggressive stance eliminates the chance of a peaceful encounter and escalates and polarizes the situation from the word go. Assertiveness addresses others as nominal equals with their own interests to be concerned with. My business is in a ghetto-ass industrial neighborhood so I have decades of first-encounter experience with swaggering gangbanger and hoodrat types. You'd be amazed how many hostile greetings turn friendly or at least neutral in the first two conversational moves if you maintain a dignified frame for yourself and the other party to the conversation.
This is a parent/child transaction, not an assertive one of nominal equals, and all of the sighing and angry staring amounts to passive aggression. Your suggestion may or may not work in the immediate term, but for a long-term productive work relationship will quickly replace respect with compliance. Well-honed assertiveness can maintain a leader-subordinate hierarchy and the dignity of both parties; this can be more work at times than a hard-nosed authoritarian leadership style, but the payoff in worker loyalty, respect, motivation, and production can be exponentially greater than the (mostly different, not greater) effort needed.
That explains a lot! The finer points of human empathy were damaged or missing during your formative years; it must seem distant and impossible to interact like this with strangers, much less intimates, given that background.
cockstantino 7y ago
Yup. I agree with everything you said. If we lived in a perfect, rational world with no corruption nor manifestation of the 7 deadly sins.
However I'm giving you the perspective and input of someone who deals with extreme narcissism & borderline dark triads on a daily basis. People who look out for number one no matter what.
Escalation is the way to go, or else they do it first and you lose. You have to put pressure on them to do anything for you. Whether you like it or not, it works.
Trust me I'm living with an emotionally abusive self-centered family. This is needed to survive where I'm from. I'm sure you've never been poor and lived with over 6 people in a one-bathroom house in a country that just went through war.
With this said, I hope my input has added to your array of perspectives.
P.S. 0% divorce rate in the fam if you are interested. Including the parts of the bigger family that make bank.
colmatterson 7y ago
This must be a troll comment.
cockstantino 7y ago
You must be living comfortably.
colmatterson 7y ago
No, but I understand how you would think that based on my realization. Thank you.