I've witnessed this several times in my life with women and a potential man.
On paper, he is all the things she is "looking" for in a guy. Lets say, good job, attractive, has status and some visible SMV.
Not long after they start interacting and talking, things change suddenly. One example I remember was a friend of mine showing me a text session she had with a guy who was all those things and she was interested in, but her mind changed really fucking fast.
He had been acting needy and texting her in such a supplicating and validation seeking way that she literally couldn't even be attracted anymore (idk, maybe she still would have fucked him) but her attitude was so indifferent. She said some pretty funny things which just made it apparent how powerful frame is to me and how easy it is to fuck it up even if you worked hard to have a high SMV.
Another example I can remember was with a plate I was spinning. she had some orbiter who hated me. He obviously had some kind of crush on her and despised me for being with her. He'd be passive aggressive towards me and try convince her that I was bad for her and was manipulating her. He'd set up situations to try confirm it to her.
Anyways, It got annoying and she started to trust him and distrust me. I just amusedly said "you know he probably has the hots for you right..?". the hamster started working. She wasn't sure at first, but i just left it at that.
Suddenly her view changed extremely fast. She seemed to start not trusting him anymore, and got visibly irritated towards him in general, and even despised and disgusted with his behavior to try talk shit about me cosntantly. She'd send and show me texts of him freaking out and trying hard to paint me badly, while laughing about it.
That was the power of frame. I underestimated it for so long.
Ansec 5y ago
Yep, it's something I stumbled upon a little while ago.
I met a woman on a dating app and after being burned a couple times I didn't really put the same effort (blue pill) I normally would do. I replied to her when I felt like it and when we were together I'd be assertive and passed all her shit tests, because honestly I didn't care where that relationship went.
She had the highest IOI I have ever experienced with a woman. I was actually shocked. Once I started noticing she was really into me, that's when I fucked up. I started to go blue pill on her and she dropped me like a box of rocks.
That was when I found out for myself how important frame is.
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SpectacularFox 5y ago
Wise words. The annoying thing is most men just want to be honest with women about how they feel but you have to play these stupid fucking games and if you slip up at any point you can end up in the bin.
Acerhand 5y ago
Embrace it. Directness, lack of ambiguity and steadiness drys up vagina. Make her uncertain, make her mad, happy. Unpredictable. Never let them think they figured you out.
TheSelfGoverned 5y ago
Fastest way to get a woman to think you are disgusting - be honest and up front with them about your feelings.
Thizzlebot 5y ago
Naw this is wrong you have to be honest and upfront but you never talk about feelings.
saucierlol 5y ago
No that's fine if she is already attracted to you. What is not fine even if she is attracted to you is to show these sentiments in your behavior. You can tell her you like her, but dont act like you like her.
Swan_in_a_Cage 5y ago
Said SAME shit to a similar situation, except I did it before she got a chance to distrust me.
I was fucking her in one of her orbiter's apartment while he was on vacation and he called mid sex and said "I love you" before he hung up...I said "Why don't you marry this bloke, he has a fucking $3,000 massage chair! He probably wants to fuck you on it."
She goes, "Hey let's fuck on his $3,000 massage chair"
"Alright"
Sruoivas 5y ago
UGHHHH. Good for you but what a despicably awful situation that idiot put himself in.
VolatileEnemy 5y ago
Sometimes I get this sense that it's a domination thing.
When a girl gets this sense that she owns you, she can push you around and gain favors from you, like some master plantation farmer, she just gets this distaste for you. Places you in this "friend" bin, but it's more like a "slave" bin.
If she feels she can't control you and you are the master plantation owner and basically it feels bad that you are not around, then she feels something for you, and signs up as a slave herself to your plantation.
virusofthemind 5y ago
In other words. If you consider your value as above hers and would be prepared to ghost on any demonstration of bad behaviour.
Swan_in_a_Cage 5y ago
Well before this, I was fucking her in my apartment and it was a much more favorable position (no pun intended)...
But after seeing her the second time in this new place, she started treating me like she owned me (was also starting her period).
I ghosted her the next day by telling her I was renouncing her to practice penance in the forest to satisfy the gods. (she's one of those religious yoga girls lol)
Now she wants me more than ever but I'm going to wait a few months and see what happens.
Chaddeus_Rex 5y ago
bahbahahaha that's fucking gold. ima steal this.
geo_gan 5y ago
What a complete two faced cunt. I actually had similar experience years ago where a girl wanted us to fuck in her flatmates bedroom (on his bed), who she hated, while he was not there. I always wondered what that meant. Did she really want to fuck him and I was just a substitute. Was she wishing it was him in his room instead. No idea the kind of fucked up shit that goes on in a woman’s head.
Swan_in_a_Cage 5y ago
Well I knew the game she was playing...she was surrounded by beta bux...and honestly, I got 3 good lays with her and some decent conversations and then planned my escape.
When a girl is playing hard like that, it's only a matter of time before it catches up with you.
H-division 5y ago
Whatever she'll do to another guy she'll do to you eventually.
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a_nus 5y ago
What happened to your friend has happened to me countless times. I'm on top of my game, girl's attracted to me. We start going out and fucking. I get comfortable, insiduous beta behavior starts seeping in. Slowly but surely she starts distancing herself.
It took a couple of times for me to realize what was going on. You can't get too comfortable. It's akin to a girl getting to comfortable with you and starting to gain weight, not shave, etc.
D3athN0te101 5y ago
Dude, that's a perfect comparison. I've used a similar analogy when consoling my dad on his marriage problems, it went something like this:
The reason the sex has slowed to a crawl as soon as you you get married is this: She's already achieved her goal. She has all the power over your finances and property, and she has the legal blackmail that ensures you won't leave. The reason she was sexing you up for 10 years straight is because you were always reluctant to get married and were ready to break up with her the instant she went too far. She has nothing left to work for now that she has it all.
An Olympic Runner has no reason to do a single lap more once the race is over. Some do, and some don't. But the ones that do run casually, never at their full potential. Why would they? The race is over, the medal has already been won.
With no carrot, the horse has no incentive to move.
​
I can go on forever with these analogies, but it all translates the same. No animal, human or otherwise, does anything without a rewarding incentive.
Even the man who is forced to eat brick does so because the gun to his head means it is the "better" alternative.
While having your teeth broken is certainly not pleasurable by any means, your brain always assumes death to be the ultimate pain, despite consciously knowing the reality of it being unable to register the pain fast enough for the bullet to actually be felt as it passes through.
trp1784 5y ago
Just went through this again a few months back, started out with good game and limiting my time with her, we started seeing each other more but agreed it was just a FWB thing. Eventually we were fucking at my place 5 days a week and she was acting like a girlfriend. I got comfortable and lost frame, so she started hanging around less, found another guy and disappeared for a while. She tries to keep me around as an orbiter, always trying to talk to me or beg me for money or to do some lame chore for her. Besides the occasional text back I don't do shit for her. It's funny when I ignore her long enough she sends me snaps and the pictures and messages get more sexual the longer I ignore her.
DrBrockStar 5y ago
I knew a very tall athletic chiseled-face student who was absolutely TERRIBLE at texting women. His problem was he always had girls throw themselves at him that he never had to go through the learning process like most people. Also in-person frame and text frame is completely different. Older and well off guys have terrible text game but that doesnt mean they dont own the room when they walk in.
​
And you dont honestly think your one statement made her think this guy was into her? She knows hes into her and she's playing on his emotions. But she wanted to impress you and show you how much she didn't like the other guy so she acted how she did.
qwertyuiop111222 5y ago
Hey DocBrock, how do you become a better texter? Asking for a friend who is neither older nor well-off :(
DrBrockStar 5y ago
Case by case basis but main rule is DONT be more enthusiastic than the girl when you're texting her. Cut out the unnecessary length and keep it short but interesting. Use emojis sparingly and when they can cut text out (for example use ???? instead of asking "what do you mean?") dont use exclamation marks. If you're one of those people who scrutinize reply times then mix it up, reply in minutes here and hours there. Dont be offended when they dont reply, girls text when they are bored or want a distraction its not too personal.
​
Different ethnicities actually have different characteristics when texting you would be surprised, but you'll notice when you text different enough girls. White girls like emojis and puns and are all over the place. Hispanics love compliments and flirty text vibes.
majaka1234 5y ago
Hispanics love sarcasm and a bit of machismo whereas when you reply "I had monkey brains for breakfast" most white girls will have nfi what you are talking about.
Source: spent three years speaking just Spanish and 12 years dating Hispanic girls. The change over to flirting with Western women was not smooth to say the least.
Asian women (actual Asians, not second gen western women who look Asian) are up for the sarcasm but they genuinely prefer a fluffier guy and more beta traits. Just look at how soy boy the K pop stars are and you get an idea of the Asian ideal.
LeadVitamin13 5y ago
You would be surprised, some girls would be more likely to have sex with their dog or cat then then of having sex with a beta orbiter. They think, "oh he's such a good friend, he would never try to have sex with me." They honestly think of them as another girlfriend.
VolatileEnemy 5y ago
They may think them as subpar, but they keep them around for various reasons, mainly external validation. They of course know they are not girlfriends. They do honestly see them as friends sometimes and are well-aware of their sexual intentions (of the orbiters).
The more cunning and evil girls will use them as weapons. [Oh you are ignoring me today? I will just talk to this other guy, who is hot but a beta orbiter to get back at you.... Oh you blew me off today to hang out with your friends, let me hang out with my old friend orbiter here who I haven't seen in some time...]
[Oh we're fighting and arguing this week? Let me go complain, whine, and use as emotional tampon this orbiter friend who says I'm right about everything and I can complain about what a giant jerkoff you are and he'll tell me how you're manipulating me!]
It's an abusive relationship. The orbiters they see as friends, and in their minds, male friends (who don't have sex with her) just provide: (1) emotional support, (2) slave-like favors, and if you broke up with her (3) sudden backup boyfriend and shoulder to cry on.
Never become an orbiter. It's like being a pawn for a malicious queen.
But just on the off-chance these "beta-tactics" sometimes work (because rarely they can work), many are willing to line up as pawns.
LeadVitamin13 5y ago
Those girls certainly do exist but some girls see beta orbiters as just friends because most of them haven't tried to be anything more. Whereas an alpha is very direct with what he wants and won't settle for anything less and will move on to the next girls.
VolatileEnemy 5y ago
Sometimes they try but it doesn't work or she finds ways to string them along without full rejection.
SpiritStatic 5y ago
You're right on.
I even had a 1st-hand look at this earlier tonight. There's a hole-in-the-wall bar/restaurant that I visited, and sat up at the bar to have a burger and beer on my own. It's always fun to see who is around and just be part of the environment..maybe have a good conversation.
A "couple" joined me up at the bar, but sat a few seats down. I want to say they were probably each no older than 24? The girl was probably what would be considered a HB8 and the guy seemed pretty well put together.
Now it's not to say that they didn't appear to be getting along, or that he made "mistakes," but she was running the whole frame of the conversation. Telling him things that he is, things that he does, similarities between him and his parents that she's noticed...laughing at him, kind of belittling him, etc.
Each time she did, he would just kind of rub his neck and try to politely argue, which of course just allowed him to get steamrolled further by her.
Once you're introduced to the idea of frame, you start to get a pulse on who is running the frame in all kinds of interactions. And when the girl is running the frame for too long, she'll eventually run you out of it entirely.
Fdbog 5y ago
The way you explained it reminds me of 'controlling the conversation' in call centers and tech support. The customer will gladly take the reigns and lead this shit nowhere, but if you carefully hold the line. They will follow along like a lost puppy.
It can be as simple as asking them a question but allowing them to elaborate far too long. Now the entire flow and context is butchered. Youve got to work twice as hard now to bring it back to your conversation roadmap. With relationships it's a bit more nebulous but still good principles.
SpiritStatic 5y ago
That's very true about the call centers and tech support. One of my jobs is doing sales work for a marketing agency, and we frequently discuss how the prospects/clients genuinely desire to be LED.
It pertains to frame, but more about building the trust. Even before a prospect closes into a client, they need to feel like they can get behind us as leaders before they're really willing to listen to our suggestions or "pitch" if you want to call it that.
So yeah, it's not exclusively a feminine-masculine dynamic, but kind of a balance of two polarities. The leader and the led...if the client is paying you for services, they want you to LEAD. And doing so requires you to run the frame of most conversations (without being a tyrant of course).
_lifesgood_ 5y ago
Yea it's honestly crazy how a different perspective can change your view on a lot of things. I think a big problem with blue pilled people is that they are in their heads WAY too much, stuck in one perspective, that being the self criticizing one.
I look at past situations i've had and seeing them in a different perspective makes me kick myself just because of how in my head I was. Frame is so damn important.
Philosophipster 5y ago
This. Since finding out about TRP, MGTOW, etc. I been reassessing the last 25 years in fragments. It's like looking at a video of you in the past, making horrible mistakes that you recognise now, but can't do shit about. Frame (or just plain confidence) was the key missing element in almost every single one of those bad memories. Initially sad, but now very insightful and useful ;)
Raxizhh 5y ago
What finally made you start building a frame and step outside of your comfort zone?
Philosophipster 5y ago
Finding out that i kept making consessions from my side every time. Which from BP imperative seems logical: Caving in for women, building my life around women, and seeing, in hindsight, that it’s not worth the time. Sad and angry for some time, then i realised i still have most of my life to live and can sulk about it, or make sure i live it my way in the future. Just needed to “get my shit together”.
CHAD_J_THUNDERCOCK 5y ago
Conversely, It's when I'm not in my head that I start to lose frame control. Need to keep enforcing the habit even after years of practice.
menial_optimist 5y ago
Hard-core blue pillers have some of the biggest egos around.
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Aro2220 5y ago
I know you're talking about within relationships here but your point is a powerful one that explains a big part of the human condition in general. People should be aware of their perspective, and careful about it. Being stuck in one perspective, usually your own local perspective, makes for some terrible people. Even if they mean to do good, they are easily manipulated. And if they mean to do evil, there's not much that will dissuade them.
_lifesgood_ 5y ago
I personally wasn’t talking about just relationships which is why I didn’t give specific examples of them. But yes you’re right, having one perspective and one perspective alone makes you miss out on growing as person in general.
Aro2220 5y ago
I think that one of the greatest things about being human is our ability to step outside of ourselves and see a bigger picture. A sort of way to view where we are heading so that we can change the course and stop future suffering before it becomes a reality. You can't live stuck in the big picture. And you can't do anything meaningful if you are stuck inside yourself. You have to be able to change focus... like your eyes focusing from a great landscape to someone sharing it next to you.
LeadVitamin13 5y ago
Betas are like crabs in a bucket. If they can't have a girl then no one can.
I and my lab partner I'm kind of interested in were working on a project, she had a beta correcting papers around her. She said he had to go get something to eat before she went to the gym. He says in a baby voice, "I hope you have a nice lunch" or whatever. My sympathetic vagina dried up, I could just imagine hers.
[deleted] 5y ago
I have no idea what you just said
RedHoodhandles 5y ago
His pathetic mangina dried up. Can't you read?!
lvanden 5y ago
Initt what are you sayinnggg hombre
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VolatileEnemy 5y ago
So basically you didn't tell us the juicy part in the first example.
And in your 2nd example, you said:
Girls sometimes bring around orbiters to meet their boyfriend and will honestly let them compete or fight over her (in their dramatic hamster vision). The orbiter was trying too hard to make you look bad, showing jealousy.
So really you didn't do much here. You just showed your "do-not-care" attitude.
odin1111 5y ago
This is an interesting post, On one hand I know about frame when dealing with a plate. that's easy, the hard part for me is applying frame to getting the girl in the first place.
Here's what I do:
Approach, try to be chill and relaxed, have basic conversation, try to challenge her a bit, a joke her or there, get her number, text her.
set up date over text, meet for coffee, then to a bar, if she is down and we go to our place we bang. If she doesn't want to come to my place Ill send her off and set up a time to meet again.
My thing after reading your post is, how can I get better with frame during the initial meeting parts of the interaction, basically to get more women that I approach. Or is it just as simple as lifting more and getting leaner while getting more muscular?(im about 20%bf and dropping Lifting+OMAD+Keto+If ftw)
I truly am at a loss in regards to how I can apply frame to improve my game.
Starfuckingman 5y ago
The answer is not thinking about all this. You have to achieve the natural alpha. Work on your own instinct. If you find a girl you like, do some fearless eye contact (not too hard), then use random chances to talk to her about anything, doesn't really matter what. If she picks up on it, she'll respond. Do it enough that you build a common ground, then let her reach for you. You lower your approach level by half or more. Try to get the feeling for things. Less calculation, more animal who has muscles.
menial_optimist 5y ago
I just touched upon this recently in The Rational Male and this just confirmed that point. That orbiter is ego-invested into the general blue pilled belief system about male/female relations. He believes if he is nice to her (covert contracting) and does all this indirect shit for her she will realize his value and be with him. Redpilled philosophy is all about cutting the BS and looking deep at concrete anecdotes to see what actually works and what doesn't, regardless of feelings or ingrained belief systems.
So this orbiter sees you acting in away that is contrary to his entire belief system. In his mind, your behavior cannot possibly be the way to win her heart. But it is.. Your supreme success (access to her physical intimacy) enrages him. He will try and set up situations to confirm his blue pilled belief systems because he's so ego-invested he believes he couldn't possibly be wrong.
carbonhexoxide 5y ago
Little bit confused what you mean by “the hots?” Does that mean he’s attracted to her?
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TheTrenTrannyTrain 5y ago
Yeah, that's a slang for "he likes you".
_lifesgood_ 5y ago
It’s not that odd of a saying but yea basically he’s attracted to her
Da_RectumWrecker 5y ago
Frame is THE thing for getting women. Lifting and increasing your attractiveness is one of the pillars holding up your frame. Confidence and power are the other pillars.
If you live in your own world and pull people into it, there is nothing that attracts a woman more. She wants that rock in the storm that is also desired by all of her friends.
jwarner95 5y ago
Frame is literally everything. Or like 90% of everything. Sure SMV can prevent you from getting the top 10% of girls even if your frame is bulletproof, but for the other 90% it's all about frame.
the_pill_is_free 5y ago
"My happiness is the most important thing" -- Patrice O'Neal
When you give up your frame you also give up your happiness. This "sacrifice" of bluepilled and weak frames sickens women.
Ill_Will7 5y ago
We all live in God's frame.
When you exert your frame, your essentially showing you are capable of making sense of this rudderless chaos.
Creating stability and attraction for man and woman alike.
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chadwickofwv 5y ago
It's called social standing which is the real goal of hypergamy.
RedHoodhandles 5y ago
Aka status. Or do you differentiate?
bluescreen420 5y ago
Status is being known, social standing is rank.
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DrBrockStar 5y ago
Literally link on sidebar with answer to your question (glossary of terms)
LeadVitamin13 5y ago
I always thought of frame as world view or perspective. Either you're in her world or shes in yours. You generally want a girl in your frame that way you dictate what goes on in the relationship.
A plate is just a girl you're dating non exclusively.
SpectacularFox 5y ago
You smash plates with your frame. Capisce?
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UpperRedSide 5y ago
Whoa. How did this guy get in here.
Shooter-Mcgavinn 5y ago
If you can’t take the time to read the rules and side bar how far do you think you’ll make it here?
[deleted] 5y ago
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carbonhexoxide 5y ago
You can read the sidebar on mobile.