Editorial of paper: https://geminiresearchnews.com/2018/11/men-hooked-on-muscles-struggle-with-binge-drinking-depression-and-weight-loss/
Original paper: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/eat.22943
The full paper is behind a paywall. The abstract and more importantly the funding sources of the study are in the study link. The paper is a meta study (academics can correct that term) of 2700 Norwegian men aged 18-33 based on questionnaire responses.
The editorial version from the gemini link is troubling. I get a sense of “Its perfectly ok to be out of shape and fat” from it. I have lost 80+ lbs personally and went from fatfuck to lean and sexy. I did train at first to be more attractive primarily. Now I appreciate the other benefits of lifting yet being hawt is definitely high on my motivations to continue training. Do have a bit of body dysmorphia as I’ll never be fully happy with my hips/obliques/love handles and the loose skin on my lower belly and love handles. The dysmorphia is not overwhelming plus I rationally know I’m in the top 10% physical appearance wise. Still I get out of the shower and go man I wish that specific feature of myself wasn’t there.
The exercise shaming has begun. I find this to be another front on the culture war against men and boys. You called this one u/ex_addict_bro
Note: first saw this in the leangains sub. Apparently you cannot crosspost to a quarantined sub.
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untonyto 5y ago
They are pedestalizing this trash with a paywall now?
tempolaca 5y ago
My ex-ltr cited as one of the reasons of the breakup that I only focus on gym and on my image. She's dating an out-of-shape 45 year old guy. She's 32 now so I guess she neeeded a beta-bucks.
[deleted] 5y ago
This is awesome news. I can't wait till "working out" is considered "edgy" behaviour and gives you bad boy points amongst normies.
"You have a home gym? damnnnnn dude, that's hardcore"
As Dom Mazetti said, the first time you life something heavy is the last time you're satisfied with your body.
Verne42 5y ago
You can bypass the paywall of any paper with this https://sci-hub.tw Thanks for this post!
ex_addict_bro 5y ago
You’ve pulled something serious it seems.
All I remember was some image with a Jewish journalist and a headline that people who exercise are more likely to turn alt right. I’ve seen it at CringeAnarchy, another quarantined sub
mori_forthestreamer 5y ago
There's no some body dysmorphia. Body dysmorphia is a full on mental condition that causes a person to hate their body. This hatred causes them intense depression and often interferes with love and relationships. As far as I know there is no getting past this disorder.
A good example that I can think of is a good looking incel who thinks that he is unlovable or unfuckable.
absolute_filth 5y ago
Full paper here: http://sci-hub.tw/10.1002/eat.22943
ethbytes 5y ago
They pre pubescent boy look also? Calvin Cline programming to thank for that?
We all need tin foil hats...
panda_roll 5y ago
I stopped reading when you spelled ‘hot’ like a 14 year old girl....’hawt’.
Wtf is this? Get your shit together.
HurricaneHugues 5y ago
Research done by some clueless dumb bitch on why men lift. Goes on to compare dumb bitches sticking ther fingers down their throats to men who have a passion for working out. What exactly is it that these people want with this narrative?
CrikeyKay 5y ago
And they just had to use CR7?
The other shit, I can stand. But Cr7?
[deleted] 5y ago
Stuff like this is great because it substantially reduces our competition as more men take this delusional half-baked advice and become soy boys. Enjoy the Decline.™
Isbjornsolo 5y ago
You’re correct is the article showing the results as a dichotomy. Modern journalism is about forcing you into one camp on the extreme of the spectrum to make it easier for you to be categorised and ultimately controlled.
However as we know exercise is a spectrum. Yes if you take it to an extreme especially at a young age <25 when the male brain is still growing. Then it could be a cause for concern for parents. However these cases will be most likely rare <0.1%. In these cases questions as proposed will most likely be beneficial for the person. If you’re training to look good for women as the article hints at through smoke and mirrors. Then this can lead to the 4 bullet points being enacted on. Especially if you have shit game and are relying solely on your looks.
Most guys want to be healthy and included within some group. Sport has always been a male “safe space” for letting off steam. Now it just happens to be the gym when 30 years ago it was football, rugby, wrestling etc.
Always be sceptical of science. The research is a Meta study meaning it brings together a large bodies of research and puts it under one set of parameters. Meaning they haven’t conducted any original research This can lead to author/researcher bias picking the points which suit their preferred outcome. I’m going to get a copy of the full paper and read through it.
My outcome from the abstract and article were that exercise and training can lead to extremes which have the potential to lead to body dysmorphia and then depression. Nothing ground breaking really. You only need to look at the increasing rate of male suicide to see this could become a serious problem.
N.B. as someone who suffered with depression, training was one of my anchors to keep me on the straight and narrow. If i didn’t train i would be in a very different place than I am today.
Now go do some deadlifts before some researcher bans them for making her weak at the knees.
standardmissile 5y ago
> N.B. as someone who suffered with depression, training was one of my anchors to keep me on the straight and narrow. If i didn’t train i would be in a very different place than I am today.
same
> If you’re training to look good for women as the article hints at through smoke and mirrors. Then this can lead to the 4 bullet points being enacted on. Especially if you have shit game and are relying solely on your looks.
exactly
EqualitysA2WayStreet 5y ago
Extreme when male brain is growing? Didn't understand that?
Isbjornsolo 5y ago
The male brain doesn’t fully develop until we are around 25. As such certain areas of he brain become fully developed beforehand I.e the behavioural part of our brain (lizard brain) so that when we get positive feedback via simplistic means. I.e. dopamine then we will double down on it in this case if I look good at 12% bf. I’ll look even better at 4%. Where as as you get older you’ll realise it’s a balance between training smart and hard. Hope that clears it up.
Isbjornsolo 5y ago
Slightly off topic, but if you email the authors directly 90% of the time they will send you the paper in full.
I don't get the same "It's perfectly ok to be out of shape & fat" from the article. More that if you take things to extremes it can be deterimental to your overall health.
The article points to the fact that the previous questions were the same for young boys & girls. Which were focused on being thin etc. Generally something shown to girls that is the "ideal". A research paper even showing this in their findings during modern times of "all children are the same" shows some scientific independence.
The statements concerning the 4 points and "significant risk" are also fairly normal and it depends what is considered significant. 1 SD 2SD or 3? I would assume it will be 2SD above the mean. Which means we're looking at 2.1% of the population (assuming a gausian curve) of men surveyed being at "risk" of acting on one of the four. If we take most to be going on some sort of diet adapatation IIFYM, Keto etc. Then it shouldn't raise any eyebrows IMO.
Figures (assuming p = probability)
Depression - 1%
Binge drinking - 3% - this figure is far too low.
Dieting - 4%
Use of PEDs - <0.01%
With regards to the culture war thats taking place. I don't think this paper contributes to it at all. It shows that men and women "ideals" are different.
​
nebder 5y ago
Was hoping an academic would translate those bits for me. I don’t have a statistics background. Also did the article reference the binge drinking bullet again? I did not see it myself only once as the bullet.
The article/editorial leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It felt low key shaming. When anything pings my emotions I question it. Is it possible I’m forcing connections to fit the FI narrative? Maybe Maybe not.
The article leaves me feeling like it has presented a false dichotomy: no exercise or exercise obsession.
Quoting from the editorial
emphasis added
pure conjecture
preoccupied exercise boys would not grow into soyboys
false dichotomy
End quote
Isbjornsolo 5y ago
I’ve just read the actual research paper. So here’s my few key take aways.
• Most participants were college educated white males. >80 were in college or had a degree. So those at higher risk of ED aren’t included in the study.
• Gay & Bisexual males had a higher drive for muscularity than hetero males. These men tend to place higher weight on their own appearance.
• creatine was classified in the same category as steroids as a risk factor. Laughable when you consider the peer reviewed research on creatine.
• “The current classification manuals for ED (American Psychiatric Association, 2013) still remain concentrated on the female forms of body image disturbance (i.e., thinness-oriented disturbance and behaviors), and the lack of accommodation to male body image con- cerns and weight-control behaviors is a current debate (Darcy & Lin, 2012). Our findings may inform future development of diagnostic schemes to include muscularity-oriented eating disorder behaviors as the inequality in the current diagnostic frameworks hinder both detection and treatment of males.” The above statement counters the current gender neutral bollocks. So I think this paper shines some truth on the potential for body dysmorphia In young men.
standardmissile 5y ago
I actually agree witih most of not all of the quotes above. I trained like a maniac through my 20's, it was how I dealt with anxiety and depression. And thank fuck too, the alternatives are alcohol, drugs and/or suicide as happened to a schoolmate of mine last week. However, it didn't magically confer upon me frame or a mission.
I enjoy the aesthetic befefits but it was more the chemical high I got that drove me and of course life would have been worse without it.
> Muscles work like cosmetics
undeniably true
> According to Eik-Nes, muscles become a form of cosmetics for muscle-obsessed men. They’re not building their strength to ski faster, or to get better at football or to improve their health. “They’re only exercising to build their muscles, without the training having anything to do with muscle function. That’s a big difference,” she says.
Also true. Body building is not a sport, it's a pasttime. unless, potentially, you get onstage and actually compete. even then I'd argue it's more like chess, where it's more you mind competing than your body
> “The culture and the role models in the Western world are largely the same. I don’t think Norwegian men would answer much differently than the American men did. This is the first study ever that shows the relationships between the desire for muscles among men and the risks this may entail. Now we have to go ahead and investigate the extent of the problem, the risk factors and treatment options,” says Eik-Nes
Well this is demonstrably bullshit. Australian, US and increasingly UK men are generally much more jacked than Euro-men, who traditionally spend less time in the gym, but are also less fat fuckish. On the other hand, Euro men haven't been feminised as much as Anglo's, which is why, for example Italians have a reputation for excellent game.
​
There's nothing wrong with training for vanity, or to mask/cure your anxiety. TRP says lift because it improves your physical presence (as csometics do for women), but also you physical capability (which means little in our modern world but is nice for confidence leading to-->) AND your mental point of origin, the most important part.
However, many mentally weak goobers hit gym, overcompensate their lack of frame with size and never actually develop inner confidence based on frame rather than mass. And their lives are not significantly better jacked than when they were skinny. They still get oneitis, just with hotter girls.
I've always been jacked. But it took developing inner frame to solve anxiety, depression and improve my life meaningfully. Training is an excellent bandaid, however.
Guys who train purely for vanity, I believe, are doomed to fail eventually. Train because it's good for you, make it part of your routine, then when your motivation dies (i.e. you get the hot girl) discipline will take over.
​
MrCongeniality1 5y ago
See my comment above. The data doesn't support that narrative at all.
The guys that are actually exercising have no additional risk of depression.
The data showed a modest correlation between negative body image and depression, completely independent of whether a guy is hitting the gym. You can make zero inference about a man's mental state (depression) based on how much time he spends in the gym.
It is so common for young guys to get really into lifting this way (or any other hobby really) that the narrative sounds farcical on its face.
nebder 5y ago
Are you speaking to the data or the editorialized article?
I’m referring to the language used in the editorial, not the abstract of the study.
MrCongeniality1 5y ago
I'm supporting your comments by adding that the narrative in the editorial is not supported by the data in the research article.
MrCongeniality1 5y ago
This is classic bad interpretation and representation of science. The data from the original paper even contradicts a major point of the article - the association between depression and drive for musculature.
If you look at the table that shows the odds ratios between increased muscular drive and various health outcomes, you will see that there are two columns: one for body image satisfaction and one for exercise behaviors. The column for exercise behaviors and depression show an odds ratio of nearly 1.00 - which means that there is no observable relationship between the amount you exercise and risk of being depressed.
It does show an association between having a critical body image and scoring for depression. Do we need a lesson in tautologies? Do depressed people usually have a positive body image?
Even if we ignore the above logical fallacy, promoting fear over a 20% increased risk of a disease is almost always crying wolf. The news/media loves to clickbait anxious women every day over their 20% increased chance of breast cancer because of whatever new thing they can think of. But if you have .0001 percentage chance of getting something, increasing that chance by 20% is practically meaningless.
The data table does end by showing a fairly strong association between actively working out and using muscle building products. You gotta give it to them there...
Of course, here is the real point:
Being masculine is toxic. Men who pursue strength, authority, and success are just insecure about their small dicks. Real men are secure enough to stay home to take care of children and mop floors.
derektwerd 5y ago
So what's left is:
weekend binge drinking
dieting that is not connected to obesity
The weekend binge drinking of course is bad and Illegal supplements and anabolic steroids may be considered bad but "Dieting not connected to obesity"
Seriously? There is a large range between normal weight and obesity, you can be a fat fuck and not be obese.
secondachiever 5y ago
they basically started with the point they wanted to prove, then worked research around it to prove their point. Science has gotten so socially agenda driven that it's not even science anymore. I could come up with any conclusion and find a study to support it.
AlmightyPerun 5y ago
And there's the problem. Everything is supposedly "equal". Every voice, every opinion. Yet, that is not how objective reality works. Nobody is equal, and neither are their voices and opinions.
An opinion which comes from ignorance is by no means equal to an educated opinion coming from knowledge and experience. It is, in fact, a worthless opinion. It is objectively wrong. Yet, both are given equal importance in today's world.
DeontologicalSanders 5y ago
Lol, did she really just compare bulimia to lifting weights? What the actual fuck?
CensorThis111 5y ago
I mean, it's sort of a truism. Mastery over my life is in fact what compels me to work out. I'm sure most others are motivated the same way.
I can't tell if she's on the verge of making a true observation, or insidiously warping it though.
It does have similarities to bulimia as well. Perform physical action -> alter physical appearance. If you're only working out to look good in a mirror, you're not much different from the chick who pukes "to be pretty".
GLADmyNAMEaintDICK 5y ago
I work out mostly because I go crazy if I don't, my anxiety go's through the roof, not social anxiety either, just a build up of energy that has no outlet. I would workout if it didn't have aesthetic benefits, its just pretty fucking awesome that it does.
Many people workout because they crave validation, nothing wrong wanting it, but obsessing over it is a toxic and immature mindset. It's not new that people do anything and everything to create the facade of the flawless individual as to feel secure among peers.
The worst case for a male is to not work out and envy people who are more muscular and rationalize that they are insecure and need to workout, solely because he only see's it as an outlet for aesthetic transformation, and is projecting his own insecurities. There is a strong correlation between mental and physical health. The ego-maniac who is physically healthier is easier to fix than the ego-maniac who is not, as the psychological issues in pudgy are likely more destructive and heavily ingrained. Thus I believe shaming the gym is dangerous in any context.
HurricaneHugues 5y ago
I workout because I like being strong. Been training for about 4-5 years now and I have yet to do a hypertrophy program. It's always been about strength for me. The looks are just a byproduct of my obsession with being a real strong motherfucker
DeontologicalSanders 5y ago
Except that exercise is overwhelmingly good for you. 95% of people who exercise do it to a healthy degree, and it benefits them.
Throwing up what you eat is bad for you. Doing it a little bit is bad. Doing it a lot is worse. It stains your teeth. It leads to vitamin deficiencies. It weakens your bones and connective tissue. Eroding your esophagus over time can lead to ulcers and esophageal cancer. Look that shit up; it's not one of those 'uh-oh, kinda scary' cancers. The 5 year survival rates are like 10%. It fucking kills you.
It is absurd to even compare an eating disorder to working out. She's molding statistics to fit a feel-good narrative; simultaneously attacking productive male behavior and rationalizing a shitty, destructive female behavior. Academia is poisoned by this kind of shit.
BewareTheOldMan 5y ago
"...exercise is overwhelmingly good for you."
True that - anything some "neo-academic" writes to the contrary is nonsense and bereft of serious research.
EVERYONE knows exercise and a good diet is beneficial and key to good health. You don't need some new wave and half-assed paper to support this fact.
Only an idiot would believe this crap - idiots and folks who hate exercise and need "academic proof" as a reason to support their lame excuses for contracting obesity-related diseases.
It's hard to believe a credentialed professor or university would sign off on this nonsense.
greatamericancities 5y ago
Routinely throwing up can reduce, or even eliminate the gag reflex. So she'll have that going for her.
nebder 5y ago
Exercising correctly is good. I’ve seen plenty of people in the gym that are moments away from snap city. Add in all the misinformation, fitness industry garbage & broscience and you can very well “exercise” and be worse off for it.
An_Actual_Politician 5y ago
Anecdotal for sure but I can vouch for this in the context of running.
ALL of my friends that have mistakenly (instead of lifting) taken up running have ended up with a gamut of nagging, semi-serious injuries. Without fail.
ELI3k 5y ago
Imagine jogging with a backpack full of bowling balls worn in front of you.
MoDuReddit 5y ago
Because puking because you feel fat is definitely comparable to a years long disciplined approach of lots of exercise. /s
Nicolas0631 5y ago
Basically let's be clear, lifting weights is useless by itself as an activity. Actually even your body is aware and that why you don't get the muscle doing nothing and lose it as long it is no longer necessary. Worse, if you get enough steroids, you may get the same result or even better with far less effort. Even worse, if you don't cheat, you soon hit a plateau of diminishing returns.
If you cheat to overcome that you start to look comparable to girls with huge fake boobs and lips and a lifting. You look fake. And everybody see it.
Back in the days, you'd be fit without doing any sport, just doing useful work that needed to be done. That's about it. Nowadays we need sport to stay in shape and keep looking good and also be careful of what we eat.
So we do it and it does make sence. One should ensure he does the necessary, but should also try to achieve that with the minimum efforts/time and go on with his life and goals. There no point to overdo it neither.
MoDuReddit 5y ago
​
I agree with everything you said except this. Studies have shown over and over again, even light exercise is very beneficial to us humans, even if it doesn't lead to gains.
NeedingAdvice86 5y ago
Good news..actually.
Because the lazy, weak fucks that want an excuse to not be fit will seize upon and NEVER actually test it for themselves.
It takes about a year then you realize that the entire world has changed and those who don't do it simply cannot understand.
Let them wallow in their ignorance.
EntropyForeverx 5y ago
Agree but we will need all the men we can get in the upcoming race war against Muslims.
ethbytes 5y ago
It's increasing the SM pool for what is really desired. And the gene pool, less breeding... ;) Eugenics?
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GLADmyNAMEaintDICK 5y ago
I don't know why you would want a man of potential to wallow in ignorance. Why not make weak men strong? Is it out of insecurity?
nebder 5y ago
Its great for the individual. Its terrible for western society. The foundation of being a man is being physically strong.
VeryCatholicGoodBoy 5y ago
Western society is already dead my dood
_A_L_3_X_ 5y ago
A friend and me being drunk sometimes got to the topic, if you could clone yourself, would you fuck yourself?
The answer for me was no, but i was fat and ugly. Today i work out, have lost weight and regained it as muscle, and now i would totally fuck myself when i look into the mirror. I feel much better, and maybe it is unhealthy and i am an addict, but being a drunk and having no self esteem is even worse.
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WonderfulPipe 5y ago
I’d rather being an addict to the gym than to burguers and video games
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AlexDr0ps 5y ago
Related: I am currently enrolled in an Intro to Psychology course I needed to take to graduate university. The last chapter or so has been all about gender stereotypes, which translates to programming men to act as women and visa versa. One of the 'facts' I had to memorize for my last exam was that masculine stereotypes are not emotionally or physically healthy for men.
Colleges are seriously telling men that muscles are unhealthy nowadays. Completely unreal
EternalPropagation 5y ago
Let me guess, female author.
wew
brotein_synthesis 5y ago
But baby, you know I hate those vain meathead swine and need you to be sensitive. Just do some yoga and knit a scarf for women's struggles, k? /s
MrSaiyan_333_ 5y ago
It's a good thing, more pussy to the ripped redpill guys. :D
alphabachelor 5y ago
Those traits are the reason why the world doesn't only speak in German today.
JcHgvr 5y ago
Given that men are openly told not to exercise, somehow this doesn't sound as bad as it should.
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xMB99 5y ago
I've met some girls who prefer dating fat guys because they look bigger and they feel safer around bigger guys. Don't mean they know how to fight though. Pretty sure by the time I'm doing working her over her fatass BF would still be trying to catch up to me. You know overweight people don't have a very strong heart either cus it's all gummed up so you punch them there once and theyre going to collapse. Whole facts.
Nicolas0631 5y ago
Remember that a very fat guy is twice your weight, so twice the momentum. The guy just need to fall on you and you are in trouble. If he sit on you, there no chance you can get out of it.
Also remember that when you do both the same thing, he spend twice the energy and that put more strain on his muscles so they are not necessarily as weak as you think.
tempolaca 5y ago
Kid, if you don't train to fight, don't assume you will win. Take some classes of mma or bjj and be surprised about a fat guy fucking you up if he catches you. There's a reason there are weight categories in fighting.
Ihatemoi 5y ago
You ask me, somehow it is viewed as gay or some horsehit that men train and want to pack on muscle. I had a girlfriend tell me that one day, fuck that.
ethbytes 5y ago
To try to make you more "safe" less SMV? Shit test?
Men who do not train will laugh about it, but will always be testing you, as they know they are lower. Conversely they brag about how much they can drink and how big their stomachs are to each other. << Only competition they can take part in...? (Is it all just hierarchies?) :(
Trelerium_Demons 5y ago
How so? You mean men who perceive themselves as of a lower SMV are/will shit-test those they think are of higher SMV? Interesting. What would some examples be of shit-tests from other men in a situation like that? Btw, I'm not disagreeing with you. I simply never thought of it in that way. Seems like an entirely feminine trait, but I've known many "men" who do catty things like this.
ethbytes 5y ago
Yes, like trying to dent the frame. "Look females he's not all that, I scored a point, I am higher smv" I don't believe it is entirely conscious, probably dominance challenging the leader in a catty way to score smv points.
An example: Random male: "I ran X amount of miles today, found it easy." May well be bullshit. Deliberately trying to engage a contest with stronger male. Frame test; reply and crush may well sound cocky and invite more competition escalation. A "well done" and join me on a "stroll" next time I go... I believe shows strong frame and destroys bullshitting. Others listening will sense the confidence and dominance, hamster attack...
Hope that made some sense...
Trelerium_Demons 5y ago
Yeah, that does make sense and the way you describe it is exactly how I've seen it. People parading around making a show out of accomplishments (on any level) is annoying to be around, to say the least. But, when it's a guy doing it in front of females it's so transparent and disgusting. It comes off as placating and pedestalizing the females, because it's nothing more than an attempt to win favor. Many, many guys do this. I honestly can't stand the company of men who do this.
Ihatemoi 5y ago
It is all sad as fuck. Better for me and for us lifting guys, we have less competition at least in the looks department.
PurpleRespect 5y ago
in this modern day and age anything manly for man is gay. Men today are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Only real masculine men get pegged in the ass by their shockingly brave and empowered wife^TM.
wendysNO1wcheese 5y ago
Not only just in colleges are they indoctrinating people. It's done through subversive ads and entertainment to outright saying it the general public.
Like the other guy said, more open gym space but also more females. Because they can say that all they want, females will still fuck the fit guy over the slob.
Imperator_Red 5y ago
The other day I was watching some crap on Netflix with my lefty girl and a mom on the show yelled at her son for saying "retarded."
I said, "Nope," picked up the remote, and began searching for other stuff.
She was all confused. "Are you seriously turning it off because of that?"
"Yep. I don't watch anything that includes left wing propaganda. I don't think you'd want to watch right wing propaganda in your entertainment."
She threw a little tantrum and slid to the other side of the couch. I laughed. An hour later she apologized and mounted me.
wendysNO1wcheese 5y ago
Haha yep.
I dated a girl in 9th grade and it didn't last long. Nothing happened. Later in life, around when we were 25 she is a lesbian. Not a huge dyke, still has long hair, never dyed it. Just been dating girls for about 7 years, since the start of college. I'd visit my one friend at his college and she happened to go to the same one and would be at a lot of the places we went. We've gotten in huge arguments about politics. I've never been a liberal. Ever. She obviously was. I'm talking about her screaming at me almost ready to get violent. I'd just laugh like a motherfucker and sit back and enjoy the show. Anyways I ended up fucking her at a friend's wedding a year later. She had a beautiful dress on and looked good that night. Like she gave a fuck. 7/10, maybe even 8/10. Like she did in high school. A lot of people were commenting about how beautiful she was. Except me. I barely had to do anything. She was all over me during the reception in front of everyone and we took a cab back to my place because it was too much. Woke up with her head on my chest in the morning and I just laid there kind of laughing to myself.
Imperator_Red 5y ago
I'm pretty convinced that most lesbians just haven't been properly fucked yet, whereas male homosexuality is obviously a distinct and more legitimate thing.
wendysNO1wcheese 5y ago
Yep, came to the same conclusion. Especially if they haven't totally let themselves go.
Forgetaboatit 5y ago
The way I see it, more open gym space!
EternalPropagation 5y ago
Not if the gym can't turn a profit.
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