I've been telling a lot of other men various portions of this for years, whether at the WAATGM comments section, on the trp.red side of this site, or various TRP or askTRP comments sections. I figured it was about time I stopped repeating myself and consolidate this info into a single post I can link back to in the future.
Caveats: much of the female behavior I'll discuss here is done out of instinct; they frequently won't even realize they're doing it. If you accuse them of keeping you as a backup option like a retarded autist, of course they're going to deny it. They aren't consciously aware that's what they're doing, and they don't like being accused of being a "bad person". Besides, none of this is about morality anyway, but rather about what's beneficial or detrimental to you as a man.
Conventional RP/MGTOW/manosphere wisdom is that men and women cannot be friends.
While this is generally true, it's not without exception.
Generally, if a woman puts you in the FriendZone, it's for one or a combination of the following reasons:
-
she wants to reject you without being "the bad guy" and still has some of that instinctive fear that you'll become violent if she says how she really feels ("eeew! get away from me!").
-
she's not attracted to you enough to throw her pussy at you, but you're not so repulsive to her that she wants to reject you outright, and so wants to keep you around as a backup option (aka orbiter).
- she doesn't want a sexual relationship with you, but still wants to use you for attention, favors, etc.
That third thing is the worst part of being FriendZoned. You're wasting time, resources, effort, and energy on someone who isn't interested. As Rollo pointed out, women will crawl over broken glass to fuck a man they want to fuck. If you allow yourself to be used in this manner, and she's doing nothing for you at all, this is what most guys in the manosphere are talking about when they advise against having female friends.
however....
Genuine friends who are female, while rare, can exist. Here's how you filter for them:
1) try to get her to fix you up with some of her hot friends. If she sets you up with a decent one, while steering you clear of man-eaters, then she's a real friend. If she constantly makes excuses for every single one of them as to why she can't/won't introduce you, she's more than likely trying to keep you as a backup option.
2) if you start dating a woman, get a girlfriend, or even just hook up with a chick at a party, is the friend in question happy for you? If so, then she's a real friend. Does she act jealous and weird? She was most likely using you as a backup option and hates that she's losing you as one. (yes, there's a possibility that she's a real friend and knows your new woman is bad for you. while possible, this doesn't happen all that much from what I've seen.)
3) does she do things for you, even though she clearly won't sleep with you? Does she give you gifts, or cook meals for you, invite you to parties she's hosting, etc etc etc? Or are the friendship gestures strictly one-sided, with you doing all that shit, like moving her furniture, buying her shit, etc? If you have an ounce of sense and self-respect, then you know what the answers to these questions mean.
that's great, Typo, but why would I want any female friends?!
Aside from the same reason you want male friends (companionship, you do shit for each other, etc), they offer something male friends don't necessarily give very well: strong social proof.
Women tend to be cautious around men they don't know, and for good reason. But if they see that you have female friends, a lot of their trepidations vanish. You are safe! You aren't going to cut them into pieces and feed them to pigs! You aren't going to put them in a pit, starve them until their skin is loose, and then kill them to make a suit out of their skin! Yes, it's kind of silly, but it makes sense from their perspective.
If you find yourself in a woman's FriendZone, just pay attention to how she treats you. Decide what you'll tolerate, and what you're willing to do for others and what you expect in return. Don't be afraid to let users (of either sex) fall away, while still cultivating friendships with the ones who help you on your journey (or at least are fun to hang out with without draining you).
Lone_Ranger 3 1d ago
Great post Typo.
I can add this: having female friends is rare and really only for guys that know what they are doing. It's for red pill experts. It's probably the one thing that nearly all guys get wrong.
The time when you are most likely to be able to have female friends is probably in your mid to late teens and then again once you get older.
The other time when female friends might work is in the work place - where the lines are really well drawn and you everthing is public, no booze.
You can learn a lot from female friends. There are so golden rules though;
The best thing about female friends is the ability to have a mixed gender group - to be able to have that is great. Meeting up with friends, going out, going to parties, its just fun. You should also have pararllel 'men only' groups... because guys need men only social spaces. for example, i've always had a tennis group of buddies and we are really strict about keeping women out of that, because afterwards we go to the club to hang out. Even if we are playing mixed tennis, we do not allow females into our club hangouts. It just works better that way.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 6d ago
This post is great, a lot of guys on here need it
Overkill_Engine Endorsed Contributor 5d ago
The main thing is to filter those who provide no value or worse, negative value. Or simply take up more time even if positive value than you are willing to expend on Not Getting Laid.
The problem is a lot of guys get stuck on "She might", and start trying to solve The Pussy Puzzle.
NO! BAD PENIS. BAD!
This is exactly one of those situations where your dick will lie to you. Scarcity and sunk cost fallacies rapidly set in. Know that your dick is a horrible judge of character or ROI. Know that women knowingly or unknowingly rely on that. Don't let it make command decisions.
If you aren't happy with what you are getting at this very second, that very second is when you need to fucking bail. Simple as. No, you fucking spergs, this does not mean some grand speech, or "closure" or any of a hundred of other situations where you open your fucking sperg mouth and give her a chance to assign you as Bad Guy.
No, you just find somewhere else to be and someone else to spend time on. If she wants to be a priority in your life, that's her job to figure out how to make it happen, not yours.
Typo-MAGAshiv Endorsed Contributor 5d ago
Going to repeat and amplify this part:
GeorgeIII 5d ago
Great write up all around.
And excellent take on not being an autist LARPerwith speeches.
A general rule of thumb I follow, assuming I know I will for sure not be banging this woman: do I have any, even the smallest doubt about being her “friend”? If I have any at all, it’s time to slowly (and quietly) fade her out of my life.
Possible reasons for doubting: I think I’m doing too much for her, she isn’t helping me with social proof, or I’m totally disinterested in anything she says or does.
First-light 2 5d ago
Good sensible write up.
My personal take on it is that useful female friends (outside of pre approval including business networking) are quite rare. Its not that women do not make friends its just that what friends is looks different to most women than to most men. Many homosexuals seem to get what female friendship is and revel in it but many heterosexual men are often frustrated by the way women and their friends spend a lot of time in quite surface activities -going to cafe's, shopping for unnecessary items, talking about holidays where you lie on a beach, worrying about trivia and the occasional back biting and betrayals. In the end there is not much here to satisfy yourself with. Don't expect a woman to do more for you than she would for one of her girls.
There is another problem that I think can be particularly frustrating for men and that is that both good and bad women can be raised to see men as net contributors and they take this to friendship. I am not talking here about making you an orbiter (that is a woman who is clearly not really your friend) I am talking about a woman who assumes that you like being a net contributor because that is what her dad, uncles and brothers have always done for her. She assumes that men like white knighting in general (not just for pussy access) and that women in return cheerlead for them and that's a "fair deal".
Men are net contributors she thinks. She will make female contributions -she really will talk you up to her friends, advise you on women, help you chose clothes and she will let you crash on her sofa and might cook you breakfast but you will still make male contributions (which cost more time and money) When she has a leaking tap she assumes she can call you to come and fix it (if she is single at the time and her dad lives in another town). She will make you a cake to thank you but you will fix her tap. You will hire and drive her a van and help her move house and she will invite you to a house warming party and tell everyone you were so great to help her but she would be surprised if you asked her to help you move house because all that lifting is not a "pink job". She may not even offer to pay her way all the time. But she does not think she is using you.
Many women raised in good traditional blue pill households -women who hold good values and who have friends who are seldom sluts- are also unfortunately often raised by trad cons who do not understand the world today and these women are default net recipients. Its hard to find a good female friend -one you as a man value beyond the networking/ social proof value. Perhaps a farmer's daughter or one whose father ran a business and who knows the value of exchange but most of the nice traditional girls are actually poor friends to men because of a blue pill raising.
Its best to be aware of the limits of women as friends. They will very rarely be as valuable and reliable in a tight corner as male friends. For their networking, pre approval and their social clout, they do however have a niche.
Typo-MAGAshiv Endorsed Contributor 5d ago
Very few friendships, whether M+M, F+F, or M+F are truly 50-50.
as always, it's up to the individual what he'll tolerate and/or contribute.
First-light 2 5d ago
True. I am just keen to persuade young men that they do not do too well to get into "friendships" where they give considerably more than they receive. The problem is most women are simply less able than another man to contribute anything a man would want aside from sex and child rearing.
For this reason men need to set limits withing the friendzone. Sure women may need to set a "No sex and don't try to change that" limit but men often need to set all the other limits. I have spent just too much time around women over the years to see it any other way.
You are the limit setter in "friendships" with women. If you do it well you will only win over time. You need to do it very tactfully because women are sensitive and expect good verbal communication that does not hurt feelings. You also need to be aware that friends do not always gain all the time form relationships but you will need to do it or you will waste resources of time and money that could go to women you actually sleep with or yourself in and you will lose these things return for nothing you need or really want. I almost feel like writing a piece about men needing to realise they need to control the friend zone (in a friendly no sperg way) even if women often control admission to it.
Most men understand naturally that male to male friendships need to have fairly equal reciprocity (or youth age dichotomies) but then they lose the plot over women, often causing much butt hurt to themselves or sperging that loses useful female contacts.
qzone 5d ago
Great post
I have a handful of female friends that I met at work (that said, only one of them I would call a genuine friend that will extend beyond when I have a different job). They are chicks that are married/in serious LTR's, most of which I wouldn't be interested in physically anyways. Sometimes I add value to their lives by giving advice on their nightmare marriages or whatever, and they do add value to my life not by giving me tips on game (don't ask a fish how to catch fish), but moreso style tips (chicks can have good insights here) or wingmaning for me.
This. I really only spend time with them realistically when at work and stuck there, though occasionally I'll go out with them and it's a huge social proofing/halo to be in a large group with mostly women. There has been many times where they have TOLD me to approach a girl I wasn't going to before. Definitely friendships that have added more value than they have been a value sink. One could argue whether most of these girls are truly friends like the dudes I have known since I was in kindergarten and went to my mom's funeral but for the sake of argument we will go with it
polishknight 5d ago
Wonderful discussion @Typo-MAGAshiv!
All these caveats worth considering particularly the social proof with women as wing”men”: Good woman friends are quite valuable. They help provide the “feminine energy” that entitlement queens think they deserve male slaves to subjugate themselves for. Being out with all women is fantastic social proof plus it helps eliminate the sting of rejection: “Get away from me, CREEP!” “OK, I’ll just go back to the table full of my women friends then.”
This may especially work well since women are in a feminine HiveMind looking for feminine validation. That’s worth a WHOLE article on how modern women are fully over “The Patriarchy” whether they’re Trad or RadFem. Men, including their brothers and fathers, are mere resources while The Sisterhood is what matters to them. Men, their own children, any actual code of morality, even her own interests come second to female validation.
ANY friend can be a mooch, sadly, but some of my most generation friends were women. Two old Swiss women from the WWII era were invaluable and helped me see all of Europe in its prime in the 1990’s. The old women of my generation were a lot of fun. They generally were raised better and were kind and appreciative of men and even had a lot of interesting things to say. They had a lot of fun stories and helped me to feel comfortable about women in general.
It may be interesting that as the current crop of inspins age, they may not be sweet, kind old women but more like the crazy cat lady from The Simpsons. I had a few like that on my paper route back in the 1980’s. Nothing against them, but they were super anti-social. I generally knew everyone on my block in that I had to make collections for the route.
There’s an episode of Seinfeld, “The Bizarro Jerry”, where George uses a picture of his dead girlfriend to get into a model party and pick up models via pre-selection. Due to having Polish women friends who were models, I went backstage a a show which was fun. Funny story: I brought some Polish stomach vodka for her later, Żołądkowa Gorzka, but she lost her mind and downed 4 shots before she was to do her runway walk. And it turned out she was so loose and fun, they used the video for all their future show advertisements even though no agency picked her up!