G’day everyone,
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Thought I would voice something I’ve been thinking about recently. It comes back to a classic conflict I see with a lot of younger guys on ASKtrp. The battle between being a nice guy, and an ‘asshole’.
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I see many guys who have been ‘nice’ to women, only to get nowhere. Maybe a lot of these guys think ‘well, being nice didn’t get me anywhere, so maybe I should just be a cunt’. They become all push, no pull, insulting, hurtful and straight out actual assholes. This doesn’t usually fair well.
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I also think there can be a false logic, which leads to some of the ‘anger phase’. Guys are ‘nice’, women lose interest in them. Women go for some other guy she says is a ‘jerk’. Therefore, guys believe ‘women are cunts who hate nice behaviour. Fuck them’.
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They discover redpill, and think it’s learning how to be an asshole. Toxic, manipulative, abusive. These are the guys who become fascinated with Dark Triad, and wish they were it.
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What a lot of these guys aren’t very aware of, isn’t so much that women are some fucked-up creatures who, for some reason, don’t appreciate ‘nice’. Many ‘nice guys’ don’t realise it isn’t their ‘nice’ behaviour that is the the true turn-off. It’s the fact that these guys are unhealthy.
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It leads me to see Red Pill not through the lense of ‘nice guy’ vs ‘asshole’, but instead ‘healthy male’, vs ‘unhealthy male’. Women are attracted to healthy men. Healthy humans.
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A lot of Blue Pill/Beta/Nice Guys are unhealthy men. Unwell. For all their ‘nice’ behaviour, look deeper. These guys normally possess many unhealthy traits.
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Bluepill/Beta/Nice Guys often have low-self esteem, and low self-worth. They don’t pursue what they want, because they don’t believe they are good enough to have it. They put everyone else’s needs before their own. They try to please everyone. They are people-pleases, approval seekers, validation seekers. They are dishonest and indirect about what they want. They fear confrontation, conflict and emotional tension. They are co-dependent. They expect others to read their minds. They have poor boundaries. He runs from his insecurities, limitations and flaws. They don’t deal with things in the moment. They seek happiness from others. They put up with disrespect. They take rejection like a child, and live in their inner child. They personalize and internalize negative self-talk. They are needy.
No matter how nice you are to me, even I don't want a bar of that.
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A RedPill/Alpha can simply be a healthy male. He has high self-esteem, self-worth and self-acceptance. He pursues what he desires, because he believes he is good enough to have it. He makes his desires, wants and needs his main priority. He is honest, direct and clear about what he wants. He doesn’t people-please, seek-approval or validation. He doesn’t seek happiness from others, but knows he is responsible for cultivating it in himself. He has boundaries. He can handle conflict and confrontation. He deals with things there and then. He doesn’t put up with shit. He is self-accepting. He owns his insecurities, limitations and flaws. He puts what he wants, above her. He can use rationalizing and logic to over-ride negativity and limiting self-image before they’re internalized. He takes rejection like an adult. Is non-needy.
A healthy male, with value, also knows that wanting sex in return for his time and attention is perfectly normal, healthy and ok. He's not shamed about this.
Now, that guy might tell me 'no', he might challenge me, but damn I'd respect him
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Those things are healthy. They're the traits of a healthy human. Not necessarily an 'asshole'.
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‘Nice’, and the associated traits are fine. Charisma, positivity, approachability, fun, playfulness, non-serious, comfort. I think guys read some Red Pill, and think all these characteristics are bad. This leads to an extreme amount of autism. Those traits are social, infectious, and the source of high emotional value.
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It’s the rest you have to cultivate. It’s not about becoming abusive, manipulative, toxic. It’s about becoming healthy. It’s about deepening values to truly reach a strong, healthy, independent frame.
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This helped me get away from thinking I have to perfect some Red Pill tactics. I simply needed to cultivate the healthiest, strongest version of myself. The right behaviors are a symptom of that.
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So look deeper than ‘nice’ and ‘asshole’. Go beyond anger, and truly own if you were healthy or not. Don’t get lost between ‘a nice guy that everyone walked over’ and ‘an asshole that nobody likes except BPD chicks and unhealthy women’.
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Women are attracted to strong, healthy males. If you weren’t that, and my description of Nice Guy traits resonates with you, then own your part in things.
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Ask yourself...how healthy are you?
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DiSysmic 4y ago
I'll have to somewhat disagree. The strongest foundation of attraction beyond the physical is confidence. Not necessarily being healthy/unhealthy. Novices will often be surprised at the amount of well-groomed girls who fuck with nobodies.
The underlying problem is more about their perception of such behaviors. They believe it's either black or white: "They don't like nice guys? Fine, I'll be an asshole." They don't understand that not being nice is not the same as being an asshole. Similarly, an A- is not the same as a B+. This mentality ultimately makes them avoid grey areas. And when confronted with such situations, they're clueless on how to act.
OP, you're falling into the same trap. There's no one type of behavior that can attract women. TRP display the boundaries in which we should operate; we're left to figure out the rest.
Recovery09 4y ago
You're not wrong, but it's amazing how much more confidence one tends to have when they are healthy or even just healthier across all aspects of their lives.
Hock3yGrump 4y ago
Being healthy raises the odds in ones favor considerably.
You are giving false hope to the unhealthy, making it sound like the playing feild is even for those not taking care of themselves.
Boring, depressed and stressed out men do not exude confidence.
Nascus 4y ago
I would argue that being confident is a pretty big part of being healthy.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
I think we're sort of on the same track.
I agree, it's not 'nice' vs 'asshole'. It's the grey area that nice guys/betas struggle with so much
Also agree there is no one way to attract women.
I was more reframing some of the things that do attract them. Moving them out of the 'asshole' spotlight. As men, we can be shamed for some things which are simply a healthy male.
Defrakt 4y ago
That's a smart shift in perspective, you are absolutely right !
[deleted] 4y ago
Women like genuine men. That's really the big trp secret: becoming genuinely happy with yourself, and interacting with the world around you in a way that reflects that, will lead to others respecting you and seeking your company.
The biggest alphas tend to be amazingly kind, supportive people. It's right there in the name - alpha just means 'leader', and a good leader cares about his people
mishasam89 4y ago
What about all that crap about girls liking dark triad characteristics?
Shouldnthavecomehere 4y ago
Some people are genuine sociopaths.
[deleted] 4y ago
If it's genuine, it works. If you're a genuine asshole, you're still genuine.
Tutsks 4y ago
To add to this, its not like you can read on becoming a psycho, or machiavellian, or a narcissist.
Its something you either are/tend towards or aren't. Dark Triad types have very different views and attitudes towards many things.
But, a non dark triad type can likely achieve the same things. So, if you are, try to be so in a responsible way.
If you aren't, well focus on the results for what you are.
Nicolas0631 4y ago
I think relations are dynamic so you may start to be kinder and kinder or more of an asshole in your relation with a specific person depending of the dynamic of that relation.
yungassed 4y ago
Girls like powerful men. Dark Triad types are always going to have more of an edge, and thus appear more attractive than normal guys because they aren't limited by the normal rules everyone else is abiding by because they don't care about long term consequences. True dark traid types end up in 2 places... dead or in prision by 30, or extremely successful and feared in whatever industry they entered.
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ChrimsonChin988 4y ago
They do like it, up to a certain point. Eventually though, these people usually come down with a loud bang as people around them start to see through them.
There are so many drawbacks to dark triad personality types... they can never have 'real' friends, everything is superficial because they want things from their friends or use them as means to an end. They can't form emotional 'connections' with people. They are never really happy as they're always looking for more power/money whatever.
They believe they're gaming everybody but they end up gaming themselves. Their own worst enemy.
DancesWithPugs 4y ago
They really don't. They like power, not the evil and manipulative methods some people choose to use like little scheming bitches.
Nicolas0631 4y ago
Up to the point this isn't abuse but setting boundaries. This isn't being an assholes but not being afraid to have an opinion and voice it.
And also doing that, even to much is highly related to frame, being confident and with power. So people that think they have no or low value with accept it even if that too much.
But do you really want a woman other than for plating that view herself like that ?
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Thanks a lot.
Yeah, I struggled for a little while, thinking anything 'good' was bad. I thought it really was about being an asshole.
I slowly saw the entire grey area, and reframed my perspective. Now everything feels so much more natural and better.
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AwakenedSovereign 4y ago
There are Levels to this concept you have written today.
And I gotta say I've been on this sub for 4+ years and this is easily one of the best posts written to TRP.
Not always. What you want is to have that option. Alphas also know how the world and people in it work, on a deep and fact-verified level, so they know better than to reveal all things to all people.
Ned Stark was an honorable, honest man. Look where that got him.
Also easier said than done sometimes. The entire purpose of TRP could be defined as giving you the tools required to build your Health.
The world doesn't make it easy to be a healthy man these days. Your experience may differ here but the struggle to even UNDERSTAND what Health is supposed to look like is huge.
Every day we get bombarded with the temptation to be unhealthy for the sake of someone else's profit. Eat that shitty burger. Drive this overpriced car. Take this medicine you dont really need to fix a problem you could fix yourself.
In short, the World can feel like it's out to attack your Health. And really, genuinely, there are powerful forces at work trying to do just that. Not because they give a fuck about you of course, but for profit.
One of the greatest Unhealthy Products of all "They" are trying sell you is marriage.
Anyways, keep up the progress, and remember that there is only one person ultimately responsible for Defining and Achieving your own Health and Welfare. You.
At the end of the day you also should not let someone define "What Alpha Is" for you. Alphas arent always anything. They know they need to be flexible yet strong all at the same time, because tomorrow, your ass might be dead.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Thanks, a lot. Great reply.
You said a lot of what I feel.
That healthy male I write about takes A LOT of work. Many of those traits are difficult to truly embody, and can take a lot of self-work.
I guess I'm trying to redefine the end aim, for some guys.
I'm in addiction recovery, and work with people trying to find recovery.
Obviously, I'm trying to be a better, healthier version of myself...and also lead others to growth, better lives and staying clean.
When I first was reading Redpill, I was like 'fuck, you actually have to be a cunt'. It conflicted with my recovery and what I teach others.
After a while I saw the cross-over, though. I was like 'shit, I'm not being a cunt. I'm being the healthiest, strongest, self respecting version of me'.
I've been clean for four years, and can agree it takes a lot of work to become healthier and healthier. There isn't a quick fix.
I also agree with the 'honest, direct' comment. That's where an understanding of game comes in. I think I meant acting from a place of honest intent. Red pill helped teach me game, to be able to do that.
Agree the world is complex, and you definitely have to read people to determine what you tell them. Again, I think it's being honest with YOURSELF that someone isn't worth the squeeze.
And yes, you need to be flexible as fuck.
Agree, too on the Alpha defining. To take on someone else's definition is incredibly un-alpha.
I want to write a post on what it is to me, soon.
Again, thanks for the reply. I resonate with it.
AwakenedSovereign 4y ago
Thanks for the post in the 1st place. One thing.
This is Tomatoes and Potatoes. Ideally, you SHOULD be able to present an honest version of yourself to people. That is going to be a more stable, more efficient relationship no matter who or what type of relationship we talk about.
But Potatoes and Tomatoes.
Sometimes, gotta be dishonest even in the long term, in order to get what you want in the ways you want it. Theres no morality here brother we are in TRP talking the real talk.
Whether it's worth your time to play games or tell lies is up to you. Remember though that 99% of other people havent done even 1% of the work we have done, and as a result of that, may react very very poorly to our unfiltered thoughts.
It's a natural, fear based reaction. Imagine the Alpha Chimpanzee getting angry and showing his teeth at you and beating chest.
The higher you climb up the ladder of life, the easier it is to cause fear in others.
People react to fear in alot of ways. The #1 is some flavor or brand of violence against the source.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Yeah, agree with that. Bending of 'the rules' is sometimes needed. Life doesn't always honour the totally honest.
Going back to the 'nice guy' paradigm, those guys are playing a losing game of dishonesty. Be nothing but nice, and expect to have their wants and needs met.
Factsfactsforyou 4y ago
A fictional character written by an author who's entire gimmick was a reactionary extreme against the type of archtype ned represented in classical fantasy on top of being a very shallow "EVERYTHING IS BAD" thematic hammer, bad example. Even then, Ned still wins beyond death because being a dishonorable schemer is short term thinking that will get you nowhere
cinnamonsneeze 4y ago
Very good write up, thanks.
diceblue 4y ago
Your paragraph describing nice guy beta is the clearest single description I have seen of this behavior. Very well done.
Soon_As_I_Nut 4y ago
Way to point that out. Very good read.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Thanks. I was hoping to make guys think a little further than the surface.
As men, we've really been brainwashed into being pretty unhealthy.
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diceblue 4y ago
Please post this to married red pill. Some of those guys need this before they Rambo. Rp culture needs more balancing to recognize the positive traits of healthy charisma.
[deleted] 4y ago
Yes, definitely there are positive traits that must be rescued and that actually make you a much better partner. In addition to this if you are a healthy person you will attract healthy women.
ChrimsonChin988 4y ago
For many guys it's still necessary go go from the nice to the asshole phase. First you see nice doesn't work, then you see asshole doesn't work either and just makes you feel shitty, then you find out the truth is somewhere in the middle and your behavior becomes more natural and genuine.
jihocech 4y ago
Too late for the married ones. Once a beta, always a beta.
Bad_nuggets69 4y ago
Had a plate say something that got me thinking: my brother is “nice” to my sister, whereas I am more of an asshole (from a protective sense).
She said your brother is more reliable, but you actually know her.
Is being nice anything more than the superficial? “I don’t care who you are, I’m checking these boxes, now you have to sleep with me”.
Is being a “jerk” nothing more than refusing the pleasantries? Poking and prodding (shittesting) is just trying to figure out who you are when you don’t think anyone is looking. I think being a jerk is really just about shittesting women (while holding frame so they don’t feel judged).
Hock3yGrump 4y ago
People will take anything you give for free, especially women. They will ask for more and more if you continue to give it away for free. It doesn't matter if what you are giving is material or mental. The more easily you give it away, the less attractive you are, period.
Not giving yourself away for free is NOT being a jerk. But when a woman calls you one, most men fold. Codependence.
Shittesting is a "confidence" test, for both sides.
ozenmacher 4y ago
Yes, it is the same argument that “men and women can’t be friends” argument, said in a different way. It is a great idea for women to have male friends, terrible for dudes. Being a friend with a women is essentially “giving it away for free”. If sex and intimacy isn’t exchanged for your time, emotional control, protection, excitement, etc., it isn’t worth shit. It is part of the blue pill indoctrination in society (“women make great friends!”, and at the worst, “women love the nice guys who work for friendship!”). Don’t fall for that shit.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Really good way to look at it. Everything we give is precious. The more we guard it, and make others prove themselves, there is something attractive in that. If what we have, has value.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
I agree. It's interesting when you begin to see a lot of what women label 'jerk' or 'asshole,' behaviours aren't at all.
This is were new guys and the more autistic fail. They set out to actually cause harm to someone, then wonder why it doesn't work.
Gods_ssoldiers 4y ago
I had recently realized this but in a different context. Physical attractiveness is directly correlated to your health. The way you think will make your face, body, and behavior more or less attractive, even in ways you might think are impossible. Positive, unstressed thinking will make you have a better gait when you walk, better posture, healthier looking skin, more symmetrical appearance etc. I was 2 inches taller after I started working out, partly because I had more bone density, and partly because my mood was good on a much more consistent basis. I also have a much more attractive face when I'm not stressed and not thinking about base things.
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Vikingcel 4y ago
Yes. When I'm full of positive thoughts and well motivated, my usually weak chin is superman strong.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Yeah, this actually bares a lot of truth.
I have been doing a lot of mindfulness meditation the last few months. Distancing myself from unhelpful thinking and embodying a deeper, quiet confidence.
I've noticed my entire body language and presence is hugely different. Not surface, superficial shit, but I just have presence.
It's an amazing thing. I've had a couple of people remark 'there is this glow about you, a real clarity in the eyes'.
I've also noticed some huge IOI's from women. Kinds I never had before. Those subtle 'making thenselves available' kind.
Gods_ssoldiers 4y ago
Yes you actually glow when you get your mind in line. Your theory of health is right. Your mind, body and spirit are all related. When one is healthy the others conform.
Itshighnoon777 4y ago
What do you mean by “mindfulness meditation” exactly? Like you literally find the time to sit and meditate and relax for a bit?
krimpenrik 4y ago
You dont find it, you make it. Don't only work on your body, your mind is even more important.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Look into it. Google is you friend. Mindfulness is really powerful, and is sort of like developing a really good how the mind works.
In a basic explanation, a lot of it is about letting go of negative thoughts and emotions. How to create 'space and distance' from them. Bringing your focus back to the present moment, and becoming more immersed in it. Mindfulness helps you to see thoughts and feelings for what they are...just thoughts and feelings. It helps to quieten the mind, and make you much more present. Less reactive, less rule by thought and feelings. Much calmer and confident.
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It's not really solely meditation. It uses meditation to help build your mastery of your mind, but it has lasting effects in every day life, and it gets easier to drop into.
It's similar to going to the gym, but for you mind...you get better and stronger at it over time.
It has a lot of scientific evidence base supporting it's effectiveness.
Itshighnoon777 4y ago
Nice, thanks for the response
[deleted] 4y ago
red pill "helps" to get your dick wet no matter what your health is, but I agree completely.
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jypetw1ce 4y ago
"I simply need to cultivate the healthiest, strongest version of myself" I love this!
Don_Himself 4y ago
The key is to be the Nicest Asshole.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Haha, made me think. That's kinda part of my personal.
I'll be uplifting, positive, welcoming. If you're toxic, a drain, immature, whatever...I'll have no problem telling you like it is.
Don_Himself 4y ago
the duality im talking about is being a walking, funny, charming backhanded compliment
for example
i fucked a girl and needed to go to bed soon, so i told her so and she asked half serious "are you kicking me out after fucking me?" to which i replied "yes u piece of shit, leave now before i get u pregnant u know i cannot resist those perfect lips.... nice round ass.... and those goddamn big perky tits.... NOW LEAVEEEE" as i proceeded to makeout & kiss her goodbye and grope her ass super sensually.
Sour Patch Game
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Dating5000 4y ago
I respectfully disagree. I think you are projecting a male moral dichotomy (being cooperative vs competitive) onto women who are inherently amoral.
I think women are attracted to a man's ability to dominate other people. The method of domination is irrelevant; you could be a psychotic criminal or beloved pastor of a megachurch, it really doesn't matter so long as you have power over people.
I think men ponder big questions about society and cooperation vs competition but I've never gotten the impression that women care about these ideas. They don't care if you're healthy beyond physical health.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Not saying they do care, or even greatly think about it.
I'm more reframing it for nice guys who struggle with the asshole thing.
If you look at a lot of what guys do that is attractive, it is simply healthy male behaviour.
Not the only way, but it is a huge one.
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[deleted] 4y ago
This must go to the sidebar
Nofapislit 4y ago
If your a dark triad you'll learn how to mirror "healthy guys" aka Alphas. Hopefully, your just a nice guy and then you can truly become a healthy guy with some work. Dark Triads do get girls though, some girls are attracted to them because they like abuse for various reasons. So don't feel bad if you're a dark triad. Oh, wait you can't.
PoundMyPoi 4y ago
This post resonates with me. Thanks for your contribution
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Classycarrots 4y ago
This is embarrassing to admit, but I showed a lot of those unhealthy traits your described in my last relationship, and I still feel the need to be validated by my ex to regain my self esteem 2 months after she broke up with me. How do I go about becoming healthy?
swarmed100 4y ago
Read "No more mister nice guy". It's written by a marriage therapist for "nice guys"
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[deleted] 4y ago
That book is garbage. What he should try is some mindfullness and meditation + a hobby and books, from Machiavelli to Freud and Red pill related stuff.
yeahmaybe2 4y ago
The book has value for some guys, depending on where they are. Perhaps you have never been in a place where that book would speak to you, maybe u/classycarrots is.
RivenHalf 4y ago
You really laid out the cause of most of the anger phase here. Men are mad because they were lied to about women yes but also because of their own behaviors and what they allowed to pass as acceptable for so long. I look at my own behaviors before my awakening and I see myself in all of those traits you listed. I would be mad at women for rejecting me who probably didn't even know I desired them. I would do favors for them, be kind to them, I would expect them to "just get it" because at the time I wasn't man enough to go for what I wanted. During my anger phase that was the true root. I didn't hate women but I hated myself for being that naive and weak willed to behave like that for that long without change. The true awakening is seeing how weak you were and how much you can and have changed once you know the truth. Great article, I honestly think this is side bar worthy. There is much truth here especially for beginners.
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NextBad 4y ago
> I see many guys who have been ‘nice’ to women, only to get nowhere. Maybe a lot of these guys think ‘well, being nice didn’t get me anywhere, so maybe I should just be a cunt’.
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This is the beginning of self correction, you are seeing a new pattern, you are making radical changes, a sign of intelligence.
You choose a hateful ideology , a feminist view point, there is nothing wrong with challenging social norms. The definition of nice and asshole
is political and made to serve women.
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> Many ‘nice guys’ don’t realise it isn’t their ‘nice’ behaviour that is the the true turn-off. It’s the fact that these guys are unhealthy.
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No , women say they will marry you when they are 30, you are safe choice.
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> A RedPill/Alpha can simply be a healthy male. He has high self-esteem, self-worth and self-acceptance. He pursues what he desires, because he believes he is good enough to have it. He makes his desires, wants and needs his main priority. He is honest, direct and clear about what he wants. He doesn’t people-please, seek-approval or validation. He doesn’t seek happiness from others, but knows he is responsible for cultivating it in himself. He has boundaries. He can handle conflict and confrontation. He deals with things there and then. He doesn’t put up with shit. He is self-accepting. He owns his insecurities, limitations and flaws. He puts what he wants, above her. He can use rationalizing and logic to over-ride negativity and limiting self-image before they’re internalized. He takes rejection like an adult. Is non-needy.
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Nice guys do all these things and quite a few alpha are lacking, you are once again using a female narrative, to virtue signal.
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> Women are attracted to strong, healthy males. If you weren’t that, and my description of Nice Guy traits resonates with you, then own your part in things.
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Shaming male for not being successful with women, men issue aren't themselves, it's a reality issue, once I understood reality , I was able to get women, I push for sex more, I walked away when no sex was promised, that was my real change,
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
I think I see, and agree with you.
Nice and asshole have been define to serve women.
And your last part is true. We have to make our sexual needs a priority, and with the right game make them direct, and honest.
Pull back if we aren't getting those needs. If you have value, there is nothing wrong with this.
bruiser18 4y ago
Enjoying your posts recently. Keep it up bro
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Thanks mate. I have another couple coming...on what Alpha is to me....and one on radical self validation.
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Hamlet_Prime 4y ago
I really love this post and it explains things so well. I feel like a lot of this post is worded properly to reach BP/PC mainstream circuits.
I always say this - being a “nice guy” pussy pushover is deceptive and you’re hoping to attract someone by pandering to them than being intrinsically attractive. That has also flown very well with moderate, mainstream circuits. Basically saying be high SMV in words that they can digest
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Yeah, nice guys don't understand their faulty behaviour...then go to the other extreme.
Elatea 4y ago
This is the best post ive seen in a while. Summed up a really important aspect of redpill its easy to get confused about. Cheers.
teveza11 4y ago
Wow, great post.
I think you are really onto something.
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I think the word "strong" is more applicable than the world "healthy" though. Girls are also attracted to unhealthy, strong males as well though. I have seen plenty of sociopaths, who are strong or manipulative, also do well with women; despite doing terrible things to the women who love them, which demonstrates that they weren't healthy.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
I agree. There are other ways to be attractive.
However, I wanted to hammer home the truth that it doesn't have to be sociopathic. Many desirable, strong behaviours can stem from being the healthiest version of yourself.
Maybe strong AND healthy should go together
AceMav21 4y ago
What if you had a MF running roids aesthetic af like Zyzz coast blast shit. He healthy nah. He nice nah. He get Bitches yeah. Talking mental health self esteem I see you brah! If you think I’m an ugly neck beard fuck my IG quinlanacevedomaverick and I don’t get bitches brah. Also don’t fuck with roids btw natty as of yet
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Yeah, that can work to an extent. Not the angle I'm taking, though. Definitely not the only way.
scissor_me_timbers00 4y ago
What was Zyzz running that killed him? Surely not solely test?
Channel_oreo 4y ago
i chose the black pill. I believe that women choose men based on their social status,money and looks. Even the nicest women will always choose a man that scores high with those factors. Personality is A prerequisite and is not an option. A nice guy that scores higher in social status,money and looks always trumps the bad boy biker/drug dealer. A good looking nice guy will always defeat a an ugly bad boy. Superior genes and upbringing will always be preferred by women.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Yeah, I do agree to an extent. Genes play a part. If you're way down the line on those, it gets harder and harder.
domoli 4y ago
Not sure that represents the black pill, at least the way I've seen it explained.
I think the black pill is primarily focused around looks representing the bulk of what determines attraction. As much as I'd like to believe it to be true, I'm not certain that a good upbringing is a trait that women seek, though I can see it indirectly helping through the education/intelligence advantage a good upbringing usually provides.
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Yes, but would a good looking nice guy defeat a good looking bad boy? This is one of the undecidable cruxes that I've observed around these parts. From what I've read, the latter would fair better at a fling, the former better at 'exclusivity'.
Channel_oreo 4y ago
on the upbringing part I mean a man that came from a high status family.
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TheRedPike 4y ago
More spaces next time.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
I believe you can have social power without being a conscious cunt/asshole
thisisRio 4y ago
Thank you for posting this. Should sticky this post for people who come here for woman hating.
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volunteervancouver 4y ago
You know back in the day I had 5 girls I was seeing at the same time and they all knew about each other and had no problems. I was a nice guy! I was nice to most if not all who Id come into contact with.
The fact is what I found worked for me is I acted fun and successful and I truly loved life! And in this state I found more people wanted to be with me (I imagine because they wanted to love life and have fun to).
You could take a lot of bullshit from here as to Alpha or Beta or Omega - what ever crap that all is - but what I'm spitten is fact! Tried and true, from me to you.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
That's cool. I actually agree with you one hundred percent.
That's my style. Fun, enjoying life, enjoying yourself, positivity. That's infectious.
I mean the 'nice' that is layered with approval seeking, validation seeking. Trying to please others and be what they want. Basically being nice, because you have no other way to approach what you want. That stems from low self esteem.
Fun, the vibe, playful, positivity can a be manifestations of a healthy, high self esteem person.
volunteervancouver 4y ago
And this is the crux I would guess if your bringing up esteem is that by all accounts I should have been so fucking low considering I was broke and homeless without a job, with my friends nattering how they could get more do more have more then I would ever have.
But nope something broke
and it was inside me and I found a key
I seen a way within people that day
scissor_me_timbers00 4y ago
Yeah the overflowing fun loving guy is definitely a legitimate route to take
yeahmaybe2 4y ago
Your understanding and depth of thought are apparent.
S2KMo 4y ago
Can someone explain this sentence a little deeper? What does it mean to "personalize" negative self-talk? Like the negative things you say about yourself in your head may be projected into reality?
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
I could have written that better, and separated personalizing and negative self talk.
Personalizing is when you make something about you, personally. In this instance, rejection. Unhealthy guys may take rejection and go into 'see, I'm.not good enough. I'm not attractive enough. There is something wro g with me' etc etc. A healthier guy may accept that not everyone has chemistry, not everyone ends up having sex. It's all good, because he believes one of the next women he approaches will.
Internalizing is when you make you're negative thoughts part of your internal dialogue, your truth, they become part of you.
It's natural to think negatively at times, but a healthier person can challenge that thinking a d let it go before it's accepted as truth on a deeper level.
In another way, frame control.
Related to that, is the idea that what we feel internaly about ourselves will shape our reality.
kymosabei 4y ago
Your entire comment is true to me, but this part in particular hits the hardest. One of the biggest issues I've had (and still have to this moment) is how I've constructed my own monolithic negative self-image.
It isn't easy to admit, but I've hated myself for a long time; and it's challenging to feel like I'm making progress in the sphere of masculinity, and then realize that there are still so many chinks in the armor.
I wanted to also comment on your post en massé. I've been reading a lot in this sub recently, and a very common idea I've seen repeated is, "RP is first and foremost, a sexual strategy". While I understand that is the origin, I am personally in a position where gaming women seems ancillary, and pretty far down the list of things I need to be doing. That being said, I personally don't view or utilize RP for the mechanics of game (which I know that I should more frequently), but to figure out what it means to be a man. Ever since I heard Tommy Sotomayor talk about what it meant to be a 41 years old and just starting to learn what it means to be a man? I've recognized that in myself.
In short, I have a desire to create a more positive and masculine reality for myself. I see opportunity to help achieve that not only in your comment, but your original post. Thank you.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Yes, it starts as merely sexual strategy...but the sort of man who gets sex, can be expanded to touch other parts of your life. It's what separates RedPill from PUA in my eyes.
If guys only use RedPill for game, then it's only going so far. It's a facade of Alpha.
In fact, for myself, Red Pill gives a path towards becoming a REAL man of attraction. It's authentic.
I don't believe in only sticking to RedPill, there is other work to be done. But Red Pill gives me confidence that I am on the right path.
kymosabei 4y ago
That's another challenge I have too--essentially deciding on what information is valuable, and what is not. On the surface, when I practice certain ideas and behaviors in RP, or otherwise, I tend to adopt them as "whole truths" until the point of failure. I've only just realized that the probability of ideas containing what I'd consider those whole truths, simply cannot be, and I have to decide for myself what is true and applicable.
Striking that balance is a bitch, but I simply have to read and learn as much as I can.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Judge success by your goals. Set strong ones, and if you are getting there, then you've found a way that works for you.
No one right way will ever be deemed 'the best'. Getting caught in trying to find 'the way: can be exhausting.
I judge my success by goals. I could read a bunch, and be nowhere near what I want.
jonadragonslay 4y ago
So true. But I've met many a so called alpha or player who has deep insecurities and also flees from them. Most of these females got problems too. Like energy attracts like energy.
xayrj 4y ago
When I first came across the redpill I first thought that women were the problem. I thought that I was the ultimate, self-sacrificing, caring, providing man and that it was just modern women in general who didnt appreciate me. Then, as I matured and read history, I learned women have always been like this.
Religion and morality had created insititutions that hid and masked the nature of hypergamy from the naked eye. Thus, when I thought upon the image of women my traditional upbringing communicated, I was thinking of a version of the fairer sex that did not exist. So then I concluded that my family was the problem.
I thought that if my family had just taught me, or shown me the ropes of inter-sexual dynamics I wouldnt have been left behind. I rationalized that it was because the combination of growing up with limited interaction with women and the attitudes towards women my family/media instilled, that I was romantically unfulfilled. But then I realized that most men are growing in this same feminized environment. I learned that the lessons my religion,family and the media were telling me, to always respect women, werent even inherently wrong. So who else could take the weight of the blame for my bluepilled suffering?
I then finally concluded that the problem had been within myself. I did not understand the importance of, or even how to, respect myself. If I had just known how to respect myself, I would have always been in frame. I wouldn't have put any pussy on any pedestal. I would have ownership of my life. I would be able to even reepect women or men for that matter so long as I was respecting myself first. If I had respected myself I would be an authentic human being. I had to take ownership of my problems.
Ive never been the same since.
Youre only an asshole to someone when you respect yourself before respecting them. This is why people are attracted to assholes. Because they are the few real characters in a sea of NPCs.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Great reply.
It's crazy how far we've been lead from being healthy people.
I agree, a perfect 'asshole' compliment can come from simply putting yourself over her. Self respect. You first. Authenticity.
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stratosphericrise 4y ago
Thank you for actually writing your post like you said you would in the other thread! This is really great material, side-bar stuff. Cheers
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Thanks. Not a codependency one, bit that will come soon.
Appreciate it.
GodOfDinosaurs 4y ago
Fucking finally a good theory post. Well done man
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Appex1 4y ago
I find it so weird when people here say: "don't be yourself" when it's literally the only way to be a healthy male without being a faker.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Yeah, I have issue with that too.
It can lead to some negative internal msgs.
Like many say...be the best, strongest, healthiest, improved version of YOU
MattyAnon Admin 4y ago
Female language translation: "jerk" = attractive guy who prioritises himself over her, the relationship and the female imperative.
Done right, being selfish and prioritising your male sexual objectives is extremely attractive to women....... but they also hate it because it goes directly against their own sexual strategy.
For example "I fuck other women" is attractive and also being a jerk. Same for "no, I won't cook and clean for you, I'm too busy at the gym". Same for straight up not doing what she wants and doing what you want instead.
Same for passing shit tests, being attractive to other women, flirting with other women, indifference to her, unreactive and non-prioritising her feels, etc.
Hence "jerk". She finds it attractive. But it's not in her sexual best interests.
This is devilishly effective on the little emotional masochists that we like to put our dicks inside.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Winner!
This sort of stuff goes deeper into what I describe as a healthy male. One, who puts his imperative first. We've been lead to believe that putting others first, considering how everything impacts others, consideration, selflessness is always the healthy option.
I think a guy who actually looks after his wants and needs, is totally healthy, normal and ok.
If she wants to put in a fuck load of work to win more of his time and attention, then so be it. But who gives that shit away for free?
bouncypoo 4y ago
damn this is the truth much better than op's drivel of healthy, unhealthy
ChrimsonChin988 4y ago
Yep. Women don't like 'nice guys' but many of them (the mentally healthy ones) don't like assholes either. They might fuck an asshole a couple of times but women with decent mental health get tired quickly of the negativity and manipulation.
You don't want to be 'nice' as in needy and a push-over. But you don't want to be a dark triad manipulating cunt also. Not even for the sake of women, but for the sake of yourself.
Girls want an attractive man that is usually nice but at times an asshole too. Someone that stands up for themselves, and although he considers the needs of others as well, his own interests still come first. They want someone who fucks them like the little cumsluts they are but also who cuddles with them afterwards and holds them when they cry.
Nice guys are on one end of the spectrum, assholes on the other. What is optimal for most people is somewhere in between.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Yeah, and it's learning more and more of that grey area in between.
You're right, who the fuck wants to turn into some Dark Triad style dude, just for pussy?
For myself, I have a balance of being a great guy. Uplifting, on a purpose, positive. However, you really have to prove yourself to me, if you're a woman. I don't give shit away for free. I will have ways of vetting the fuck out you, and I don't need approval or validation.
TheRealIsBack1 4y ago
Needed to read the end. Thanks for sharing.
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majani 4y ago
A lot of the behavior you've described as healthy could be seen as asshole behavior if viewed from a blue pill perspective.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Yeah man, exactly. It shows how far we've been brainwashed.
Zech4riah 4y ago
Excellent post and it points out the problem with this community. Guys here are trying to be assholes but they only manage to shift from unhealthy behavior to another.
I describe myself as the "safe asshole" and pretty much every girl who has heard this description agrees with it. Im nice until my boundaries are violated or girl shittests me. Then I become the asshole who enforces his boundaries and doesnt take shit. As long as the people behave and dont challenge me, Im nice.
Girls say hate when I teach manners to actual douchebags or selfish people but then they secretly admit that it turns then on when I command respect and make people behave.
Be nice, be healthy, be the cool fun guy - as long as the people deserve it.
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teveza11 4y ago
lol, you still haven't gotten to the point that you don't need to be an asshole in a relationship. I never have to be one.
You still have a lot to learn.
Zech4riah 4y ago
So...?
If you haven't done any of those things and therefore - called an asshole, then you have find some next level of TRP or you are fully blue pilled who caresses his princess.
teveza11 4y ago
You were talking about HAVING to be an asshole when your boundaries are crossed and you're disrespected.
Being called an asshole in a joking way isn't the same as having to BE an asshole because you're being disrespected and mistreated. You clearly were referring to the latter in your post.
Zech4riah 4y ago
Are you more likely nitpicking on the term "asshole" and we are actually arguing about semantics? In this context I define an asshole as a guy who does and says his own thing without being afraid to upset someone. This applies also to situations when someone behaves badly and you teach them manners (being more or less an asshole towards them).
As an individual, you have to be enforcing your boundaries every day on some level. When you enforce your boundaries, some people may consider you as an asshole. There is no joke when she gets upset of my decision and considers me as an asshole. But no one should act like an asshole just because sake of it.
I think you are just banging your chest here.
StevenConfident 4y ago
​
In other words, traits commonly attributed to women. Unhealthy males are feminine.
​
​
In other words, traits commonly attributed to men. Healthy males are masculine.
​
It's as simple as that. Women desire men. Not other women.
Azaingod 4y ago
I just had a date last night that didn’t go as planned because I was too scared to say and do certain things. As soon I finished I was literally projecting negativity because I thought “god why am I such a little bitch”. I been feeling like shit since and I retreated to the red pill to help see if I could fix this. That paragraph about beta behavior is so accurate of how I feel, I realize self moping and taking my failures like a child doesn’t help me at all and I realize I’ll try again and do better.
Although it really wasn’t the point of the post, it really did help so thanks.
surethingjanet 4y ago
Good analysis but also very binary analysis that lacks nuances. Rarely any one checks out all the points of any of your two lists (beta/niceguy vs alpha/jerk). It's more like a mix of the two with variation in percentile.
For the sake of using an arbitrary exemple, one can be trying to please everyone because one's co-dependant and quite needy but one also has boundaries and puts what he wants above what women want. And therefore might end up in like the 66th percentile of beta, (which simply means one would be more beta than 66 persons is a room of 100 individuals.)
Absolutes and archetypes often help categorise different type of profiles but rarely represent anyone really.
Some are more beta.
Some are more alpha.
But with almost infinite variations and diversity of profiles.
Absolute alpha UberChad™ is rare af, 99th percentile, (and is of course not wasting time reading trp because he incarnates trp theory itself naturally) but yeah, he eats all the cake so you wanna be that guy. And the good news is you might already sort of have some personality traits in common - as long as you're not : Absolute beta Niceguy™, who is also crazy rare 1st percentile, and doesn't even get to smell no cake. You absolutely don't want to be that guy but let's assume that, as long as you're here reading, you probably also share at least some character traits with him.
ElijahBurningWoods 4y ago
I needed this post so bad. I feel like I'm to much of an asshole because I think compliments are killing the attraction, while a genuine compliments are good. I know this is to much of black and white thinking, but I still have a hard time to find balance.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Dude, I think it's more about attitude. Women can tell if you're complimenting because you want their approval, or win them over. Neediness. Asking permission to go further.
A compliment, as an expression of desire and part of escalation can be fine.
It's all about intent and motivation. Also, I only compliment when I can tell she's emotionally invested.
jbpostv 4y ago
Thank you so much for this post man. I'm in recovery of the nice guy/asshole complex created by manipulative losers who gaslight women as cruel and heartless just because they don't like lousy men who try to make up for it with supplicant kindness. These terminologies and bitterness toward "chad" "alpha fucks" and "hypergamy" is at the crux of what holds so many men back. Theres an animosity toward that which they are trying to become and it prevents it entirely. Figure out what it is women really like about men and every last one of you will realize you can be a friendly person and get laid like all hell. To be perfectly honest you mostly get trash women going after the brooding, agitated, emotionally numb and chip on his shoulder guy with a leather jacket, you know the "bad guy" stereotype. Honestly makes me wanna throw up. Most guys who slay with chicks are funny, assertive and socially skilled, making them laugh and smile all the while doing the same.
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Yeah some stuff got lost in translation. You're right, you get trash being that manner.
How anyone conflated Alpha with emotionally unavailable, brooding, aloof etc...is weird.
In absolutely no way do I condone being blue pill...
But there is something infectious about being uplifting, charismatic, fun, playful, passionate, together...
Whilst also knowing your own worth and how to put yourself first. Also having purpose, prioritese and mission. Just basically being a well rounded, whole person.
This sub is full of guys too afraid to be them. Too afraid to enjoy themselves, because they are always comparing themselves to an illusionary image that isn't them. The majority are angry, bitter, play acting retards.
I dislike the word 'alpha'...but I have a strong sense of what it means to me. You have to remember, very few men will ever touch upon what it truly is. Just visiting a Reddit sub won't get someone there.
Your reply touches on some of the deeper psychology that happens. Never thought of the gas-light take...which resonates with me. They put it all back on women...who are 'cruel' and 'fucked up'. The real growth comes from taking full responsibility.
Women are human, too, so they need vetting...but the world is grey area.
jihocech 4y ago
It is hard to be a (masculine/red pill) man as son of a single mother. Women are born, men are developed.