I've taken the freedom to put up some quotes from a recent thread that encapsulates a lot of what I'm seeing on TRP in the last 1-2 years whenever I occasionally check in. Its mostly for flavouring this post read them if you wish. Perhaps read the TLDR first too. PAU= Protestant Ascetic Ubermensch.
"I am playing the MMO of life. The best goddamn Game there ever was. Best graphics. Best realism. Best immersion. Highest challenge too - no saves, no cheat codes, no script or cosmic destiny railroading you. Just a big ass world."
"Down time is necessary, but my point is when the mind is no longer battered by huge synthetic dopamine spikes, it'll start enjoying productive things. Reading books, learning an instrument, learning a language, will eventually become fun, and that'll be what the mind prefers to do during its down time."
"This assumption is wrong at it's core. Everything in moderation, meaning: Playing vidya 40h a week=bad, 20 or 10h=okay Smoking a pack a day=bad, 10 or 5 cigs a day=okay? Shooting up a full spoon of heroin=bad, half a spoon=okay?"
"There's plenty of joy, beauty and excitement to be derived from life, you simply have to notice it. Lifting, improving, reading(non-fiction) etc are not escapes from reality, they're engaging with reality. You're learning more, becoming more and then taking that version of yourself to the world. When you go out to the world and live your life all sorts of incredible expierences come back at you, they won't all be great, in fact some will be terrible, but that's life. You live and you learn and you make tweaks so that next time it turns out better. It's all about where you put your focus and attention, it saddens me that such a defeatist comment has been upvoted because there's so much out there once you stop letting it pass you by and you start getting stuck in."
So before I really start this, there's a thing I need to get clear- the red pill is as is described on the sidebar a "discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men." it is in essence a guide to achieving your sexual desires because that is one of the most important and critical issues facing men in the west today. And what I don't understand is why the ascetic, ever 'self-improving,' protestant work-ethic, 'always in reality' man has become the defacto and only seemingly accepted ideal of positive identity for men. We are part of lost generations of men whom have been abandoned in some ways by traditional masculine role models we would have seen before and it seems that many of these role models have been completely forgotten and replaced with as I would call it the protestant ascetic ubermensch (PAU). On top of that the comments as I see them have become less so about the positive identity of this ubermensch but seem to have been composed by people who mistake perfection as the road to happiness in TRP. The truth is nobody expects perfection, it is tremendously difficult to achieve, setting it out as your goal is not necessarily the most appropriate path for oneself and finally if you think happiness through being this fictional archetype of a man then all the more power to you but I find this a very rare occurrence.
What I mean by this is that if you were born after the war let's take note of some of the breadth of role models you could have had- from protestant ascetic ubermensch GIs and war heroes, to alcoholic/smokers like Churchill and Patton, to rebellious rockers and Harley Davidson riding bikers, etc. From Las Vegas, to Washington DC, to LA, to NYC, to Texas and to Miami, the pre-internet/feminist age had various sub-culturally different role models of men. If you were a drinker, hell even an alcoholic and gambling addict you could simultaneously also be famous and successful in your field if not content with your life for the most part. And also, as many of these larger than life figures who have inspired generations of men have mentioned- is it a necessity to live healthy so you can live through your 70s-90s or is it better to enjoy the moment?
It is NATURAL for you to have VICES. Don't listen to TRP comments where everybody is some perfect PAU because they're probably lying to themselves and to you. The extent of the lie may be small but they probably are. Its likely they have drunk too much, or indulged in shitty women, been in meaningless fights, gambled, etc. Vices have been and always will be with humans so don't bother trying to eradicate them, try to manage them. Don't let videogames, porn and drugs take over your life and you'll be fine even if PAU's american fantastical idealist might tell you otherwise they don't really represent a realistic positive identity for men. Do things you enjoy instead of fulfilling male ideals preached about by the church since centuries past, male ideals which were in and of themselves created in order to firm up the social foundations of the church and drive guilty 'failed' men towards the church.
There's a lot more to being a man than being perfect and there's a lot more to happiness than being perfect. And here's where I discuss what I think one of the secrets to the PAU, and indeed the dirty secret of TRP in general.
I'll first note that my father is an example of a former PAU who's achieved happiness to some extent through his traits of hard work, moderation and so on in his earlier life. And this is despite the fact that we've come from a war-torn country which was never protestant so we haven't the cultural/religious background to living a life like this- my father has found his happiness through living like this entirely organically. But he's happy, why? Because despite all the work he's done, 14h a day every day for decades, he's always loved his job, he's achieved great professional achievements and a high level in it and been paid well and MOST IMPORTANTLY he's had a loyal wife and children since he was 19 and that's where he derives most of his happiness from.
But women like my mother, one can hardly find in the west. In the west is where I find my own career successes, much like my father I have always aimed to become at least a c-suite executive or equity partner or politician. But what I don't find is the same relationship my father found in my mother, during the heady days of war in the Balkans. The loyalty and respect aren't something that one can find in the west. The gratefulness especially so. As this post adroitly pointed out on TRP "If Not Men, Then What? - "the biggest con in human history was convincing women that working, commuting, and paying taxes was fun" men have become anything but #1 in the hearts and minds of western women.
I can't leave the west because the jobs I find interesting, which pay out 6 figures, which give me a chance of becoming the leader I've wanted to be don't exist in the same place where I can find more traditional women because a traditional women worth their salt won't just be some 'easy' approachable woman who latches on to you at first opportunity without you knowing their language or traditions. That Ukrainian girl coming to america with you that you've known for 3 months isn't the same thing as that Ukrainian girl your Ukrainian friend has been with for years and who have known each other for longer than you've been with all you exes combined. Couples who have been together through thick and thin and who have serious traditional, familial and religious ties which enable the system of loyalty that allows for the 'blue-pill' romantic ideals to be achieved.
I've found myself often reflecting on this paradox- I have to sacrifice one or the other. But I did once believe that if I emulated the PAU then I would be successful and in this line of thinking is where I think one of the most pervasive ideas of TRP exist- perhaps if you're perfect, if you're hard working, if you're so much more interesting, so much more put together, so much fitter, so much stronger, so much richer than the woman you've chosen you just might get to experience this kind of romance, this kind of relationship, this kind of marriage which despite ourselves we still argue about constantly on TRP. Many of you when you read 'you can't marry' on here don't believe it. Don't want to believe it. And I agree with that sentiment especially as my parents and grandparents have proven the opposite. But the older I get and the more I experience the less likely this become and the more likely AWALT becomes at least in the west and other globalized places where those traditional systems of society have fallen apart. Because women aren't rational- if you aren't #1 in their hearts and minds due to their own personal worldview and what they were taught growing up then no matter how superior you are that doesn't mean that their treatment of you will be the kind of eternal respect and loyalty you want. It will always be contingent on these PAU traits. That's why imo I see so many of these pro PAU comments- trying to be happy to be a PAU involves for many a complete rejection of all these distractions in life because it is essentially a life of asceticism.
But it is similarly in primarily the non-traditional west where I have rediscovered many of these male role models who weren't perfect. They weren't PAUs but they enjoyed their lives. They've achieved great things. They were flawed human beings, they often didn't have wives or at least didn't keep them. They were the rogues, rebels, commanders, leaders, politicians, musicians, artists, etc who represent positive identities of men apart from PAU and in my opinion are a much better fit for the reality of the modern life than a PAU.
TLDR Getting high on MDMA at a techno concert, going on trips around the world, spending your time playing videogames, watching TV/going to the cinema, drinking til blacked out at a dive bar with a bunch of weird people, fucking off your career for a year to go live like a hippy and backpack through South America. All these things aren't healthy. They're not reality. They're not going to make you more productive. Some of them might not even be attractive, but if you've learnt enough to take care of your sexual desires then you've already achieved the TRP goal. You becoming a PAU won't fix western women, it'll just make your life less entertaining. And if your entertainment is sitting at home on videogames then so be it, its not any less unproductive, health damaging or anything else than the other ones. Its just less attractive but if you're already achieved your TRP goal what do you care? One important thing I should note is that you should at LEAST TRY. If you're only spending your time on videogames and never tried backpacking, or hanging around weird bars, or gone to festivals then you should at least TRY.
KeffirLime 5y ago
TRP is dead set against using red pill tools to achieve blue pill goals.
The improvement advice is essentially guiding men through the ascension of the male dominance hierarchy in order to have more options available to them. This is regarded as a winning(alpha) sexual strategy.
The culture lacking a positive identity for men part refers to the cultural drive to water down masculinity and by virtue leave men riddled with beta blue pill behaviors which inhibit sexual success.
TRP is less about being a positive, good or negative role model, infact it's amoral, and more about equipping men with the tools to successfully navigate the sexual market place. It's more useful to talk in terms of alpha and beta archetypes than of positive and negative identities.
What gets done with the tools learnt here is for each individual to decide. They need to find meaning for themselves.
krakarot 5y ago
I can see why you're top endorsed, that's a great comment. And yes TRP is dead set on that but more often than not I can read between the lines on many of these PAU posts and I can tell what they're hoping for because I used to think the same. I'm just giving an alternative view from someone who's been there done that in this aspect.
bouncedeck 5y ago
I am not sure how old you are but I am about to turn 51. Woman are totally not worth it as this age, and I have to be honest, younger women irritate the shit out of me or bore me. In my experience maybe 10 percent of women are worth LTR from 20-30. It really drops off badly after that like one percent a year. By the time you get to 40 most women have herpes and serious issues. It is really hard to find a serious partner.
krakarot 5y ago
I am in my mid/late 20s. I've lived outside of eastern Europe most my life though in both northern Europe and anglophone countries such as UK/AUS. The difference in terms of functionality of family, loyalty, affection, etc are completely different when comparing my parents or grandparents who have all been together since their teens and even my friends parents who have been together since their late 20s early 30s are completely different.
It is one thing to meet and make one's life partner from teenagerhood onwards than everything else. I can see where the blue pill dream comes from- but it cannot and will not ever be true in western society as it is today. The only friends I've had where I met the parents and I've realized hey through thick and thin these people will not only stick through with each other but also enjoy and appreciate sticking through the bad times as well as the good times have been people with traditional background parents. From Pakistanis to Bosnians to Japs, the truth is that what makes a 'blue pill' idea of lifelong romance until death work is societies and people who have rejected the societal conceptions of feminism.
My mother for example, after all the children left the nest quickly embarked upon a career in banking in her late 30s which is nothing short of astounding, she has been extremely successful and has had my father's aid throughout all of it. She's what feminists would hail as a 'strong, independent, heroic' woman. But that isn't true at all. She could have done it from when she was 20. Maybe she would be an executive if she did. But what she does know and always remind us is that she sure as hell isn't going to be happier than what she is now with successful children and a loving and loyal husband.
I'm only so young, but from the age of 18 til now all I've learnt repeatedly and over and over again have been harsh lessons about the failings of western sensibilities. I don't doubt your view of the situation. And I am probably in the same boat as well if I keep it up and focus on my job instead of going back to my homelands.
Razkolol 5y ago
Well since the media is encouraging women to find themselves and to have more and more casual partners in western countries it's not even worth considering ltring anymore. No amount of blue pill parenting will overcome social/group pressure that enables hypergamy. Blue pill strategies are dead in this day and age. Investing time, energy and resources into a woman who will jump to another dick as soon as you break frame is just stupid and has no roi. Hypergamy was kept in check via societal pressure and religion until now, now the entitlement is just out of control, for some reason they think that they will lock down the 10/10 stud with a 10 inch dick and 2 lambos if she just sucks his dick more enthusiastically, 80-20 principle, the higher you get into that 20% the better. Only problem with enjoying the decline is condoms...
theherosmyth 5y ago
It depends where one comes from and where one wants to arrive, I guess.
The first two posts you quotes don’t strike me to come from a place of doing what needs to be done to fulfill their sexual desires, so much as they sound like people who were deeply hooked by instant gratification, and found joy in life after they beat their addictions.
Just to speak for myself, I’m currently in the process of ridding myself of all the forms of instant gratification that are toxic to me. I resolved to do this after I realized that this lifestyle that I have become accustomed to, just going from one dopamine hit to the next, in whatever form, has changed my brain to value whatever could get me those highs. Anything that didn’t fall in that category was a nuisance. People weren’t individuals who I could have a connection with, but rather something that could possibly get between me the next high I chased. So I isolated myself, so what I was doing wasn’t visible to other people, so they couldn’t have an opinion about it, so they wouldn’t bother me with it. I had become a disfunctional human being.
And when I see high I mean dopamine high. Through porn, video games, junkfood, weed, whatever.
When I try most of these in moderation I just get sucked back into this dark pit of lower consciousness headspace where I get hooked on instant gratification again. I can smoke weed once in a while and not get hooked, I want to limit junkfood to just once in a while, though I have a massive sweet tooth so that’ll be the bigger challenge.
But for me it’s best to just cut off porn and video games altogether. I can’t manage them in moderation, and especially porn has adverse effects on me. It’s better to just get rid of them completely. Not because I give a shit if it raises my SMV or whatever. But for the sake of being a functional human being able to enjoy life.
krakarot 5y ago
the curious thing about the manosphere is that the very thing we're accused of is what the rest of society does not have. Free speech. Critical discussion of the societal paradigms which dominate our consciousnesses and critical discussion of our own viewpoints on this. Though these points aren't the purpose of TRP when I look through all that is available to the young western man of today where else would you find people telling you to stop riding those dopamine highs? where else can you find alternative conceptions of life so well moulded and perspectived for men? Nowhere sadly imo...
theherosmyth 5y ago
I think as TRP grew in popularity, it attracted not only Chads learning the truth about women to use it to their advantage, but also guys who don’t quite have their shit together, but woke up from the Disney fantasy society pushes about love and relationships. Seeing as being the best version of yourself so as to raise your SMV is an integral part of TRP, that becomes part of the vocal points of discussion, especially for these guys.
Where the rest of society does not actively encourage this, if not dissuade it, if not tell men that any attempt to better position themselves in the world makes them toxically masculine. I think TRP functions to some guys like a big brother in that regard. It’ll slap you upside the head and ask wtf you were thinking, but at least you get the truth you need to hear.
Edit: accidentally posted this as a comment
Nighthawk_Black_ 5y ago
This is one of the best posts that I've seen in this sub for awhile. IMO people take a lot of this redpill stuff way too seriously and forget to have some fun.
krakarot 5y ago
thanks. You can see on my reddit account I barely use reddit anymore but I keep coming back to TRP to check the 'top posts' for the month and I keep seeing more of these ultra-serious hardworking posts when that's not going to necessarily make you happy and is only one way to solve sexual inadequacy.
[deleted] 5y ago
For a lot of guys who only have a tiny shred of hope, and who can't visualize themselves as attractive enough to Game, it's often easier to first sell them a repackaged Auschwitz Motto.
Nighthawk_Black_ 5y ago
I've been following TRP for a few years and its a strange thing to see it going from something mostly about sexual strategy to being about not going out and working really hard. I read a lot of posts about girls going out and riding the cock carousel it makes me wonder if guys are too busy working instead of getting lots of pussy.
redpillschool Admin 5y ago
Depends on who you're reading. The problem is once you get laid, then what? Your strategy doesn't end there.
For many of us the question becomes- okay i can get laid by some girls, now how to I get the family I want or the woman I want?
And that requires more ground work than hitting up every girl at a club.
Nighthawk_Black_ 5y ago
That's actually a good point I'm not looking for a family so my point of view is different from some redpillers.
krakarot 5y ago
Like 2-3 years ago it felt to me like every second user was on a monk mode. Nowadays we don't even discuss monk mode seriously but many user's baseline lifestyle have become monk mode lite.
redpillschool Admin 5y ago
I have always been a vocal opponent of monk mode. You gain far more experience approaching and failing than sitting around not trying at all.
Hombremaniac 5y ago
Whatever makes them happy, no?
Imagine being 40 and having a son from previous 9 year LTR. Is that so hard to understand, that to be alone with yourself, going to gym and trying to improve is actually making man happy, instead of putting up with female bullshit?
This state of bliss can be what many consider their TRP goal, at least until they feel the time for change has come (if it comes).
krakarot 5y ago
absolutely. I don't claim to be an expert. I'm just saying the PAU ideal is just that- one of many male ideals. And it doesn't help many people sell this ideal as the only way to get over one's sexual inadequacies. If being the perfect human being was the only way to satisfy sexual desires then TRP would be done years ago.
Hombremaniac 5y ago
Ok, I get that you speak about variety of different end TRP goals.
Perhaps it's best to experience variety in that regard as well.
Foobyx 5y ago
More productive for what?
Will being more productive make us happy?
Every studies show that own more stuff doesn't make you happier, on the contrary: travelling, mingling in bar with people, dancing in a concert, this make you happier.
NO. NO old people ever said "i regret i didn't work enough"
RightHandWolf 5y ago
Excellent post! One of the things that tends to get down played is the free will aspect of the journey. Yes, the sidebar tells people to lift, work on the wardrobe, work on the finances, etc., but the most important element is doing what is best for you. By definition, if it works for you, then it works. Lift, but don't try to be Arnold, unless that's your goal. Dress well, but don't worry about making the cover of GQ. Improve your finances to where you want them to be. TRP is a map, but only you know what your destination might be and the best way to get there.
failingtheturingtest 5y ago
This thought vomit is well written but fuck me if you couldn't have made the point in a couple of sentences.
Some of us choose to give up short term gratification for longer, more sustainable results. You think that choosing short term gratification is OK because you're currently gratified.
You do you. Good luck in the future.
krakarot 5y ago
I first responded to this comment with a comment about how the system we live in disadvantages those who seek to become rich because the modern west is horribly unfair. Nothing I said was untrue but people didn't like it and I realized hey maybe its not my place to tell people what is and isn't possible even if I have deep personal experience of it. I mean its just anecdotal evidence backed up by stats about social mobility but whatever I'm not going to rain on the parade of people imagining they're going to be rich just because they put in effort.
There is a second thing I want to comment on. And that's the idea that I'm advocating for throwing the rest of your life down the drain. To become middle-class isn't a herculean effort. You can easily enjoy your life and do all sorts of bullshit and if you're playing the game remotely intelligently you'll be able to keep your lifestyle. Be it a year long gap in your career which you lie as being health related, or whatever else I've said if you have followed the TRP rules, can stand up for yourself, can talk assertively and confidently to people then you should be fine in both enjoying your life and also achieving small but stackable advancements in your life. I have not advised anyone in this post to just go on a heroin binge and ruin your life.
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smartstarfish 5y ago
All work and no play makes jack a dull boy
Frenetic_Zetetic 5y ago
Avoid people who constantly talk about "the excitement of travel". These people have not found themselves, and will gladly make sure you lose clarity as well in the process of associating with them.
[deleted] 5y ago
[--removed--]
krakarot 5y ago
Very insightful comment mate. Its true the community has changed indeed and PAU is basically what is necessary for many of them to change their ways.
AwakenedSovereign 5y ago
Sup bro. Your top quotes are mine - you're welcome.
It's not about perfection, it's about excellence.
I've done MDMA at raves and festivals, used to play vidya games, still smoke the occasional blunt or have the occasional night of drinking, etc. I've been cold invited to orgies and pulled women right in front of their "man".
I bet I have done and will continue to do "unproductive things" for my own pleasure that you've yet to even think of.
But living clean 95% of the time is still worth it to me. I've got no idea what you're on about with this PAU bullshit so stop trying to label everything with identity politics.
For me it is as simple as living my best life possible, and that means keeping the temptations and instant gratifications as an occasional indulgence instead of some hedonistic modus operandi.
This is because I pursue long term power & freedom, in no small part because the power I am building brings me more pleasure & options with less effort and stress. Cleaning up junk lifestyle habits like Porn and Video Games is just part of the diet plan, enabling me to better enjoy what I consider to be more tangible and fulfilling endeavours, even when those endeavours are strictly for my enjoyment.
---
I also do not agree with the idea that a man should ever stop growing. We are not evolved to be idle pleasure seekers. When old men lose jobs, wives and families they die from the resulting lack of purpose, lack of drive. Because if there is no Mission, then they stop holding themselves together, and then they die. The world by default is unkind to men and anesthetizing yourself with bullshit makes that worse not better. You choose a reason to live and mean it, or you start die, by ounces or by pounds.
So to each their own. I found my pleasure and successes in life amplified being a "PAU", not reduced, even though I spend less time indulging myself in instantly accessible pleasures and more time than ever "working for success".
Here's a spoiler alert: The success is worth it, and the work to get there is fun and invigorating, if you're doing it right.
Nowadays I genuinely enjoy going to the gym, or reading some new useful book or article, or working out ways to improve and expand my skills and assets.
Then again I've always been naturally competitive, if I'm not at the top or jostling to claim the top I ain't happy. I just misallocated my drive on bullshit for way too long and cared about my League ratings more than my Life ratings.
Now I'm playing the "MMO of Life" and I do it the same way I ever played any game - competetively.
I guess this is because I have chosen to love myself and the giant dopamine hits that come out of piling up new glories, instead of loving something external that provides those chemicals through less fulfilling methods.
"One must imagine Sisyphus as happy."
krakarot 5y ago
historically speaking, and looking at modern hunter-gatherer tribal societies in unexceptional environments, men had immense amounts of free time. People throughout history have worked far less hours and far less than we do nowadays. Limitations of night lighting, limitations of farming technologies and practices, etc. We have the least free time probably in history as a whole. And if you're going to mention lax labour laws leading to overwork in the first industrial revolution that's irrelevant because the higher-paid in society at that time had more free time than any of the successful in today's society so as a whole society still had more free time than before. Additionally it was a rare few which pursued these sorts of 'self-improvement' programs or other extracurricular productive capability enhancement activities.
So 'historically speaking' we ARE lazy, idle and meant to spend most of our time in social activities and rest. You can make many arguments for being a PAU but historicity isn't one.
"I guess this is because I have chosen to love myself and the giant dopamine hits that come out of piling up new glories, instead of loving something external that provides those chemicals through less fulfilling methods."
You do you, but don't misattribute this as being any superior to other dopamine hits. Your only biological necessity in life is food shelter and reproduction everything else is just extras that depend on your worldview, your preferences and your capabilities.
I can fuck around for example because my upbringing, current position and capabilities mean that I get less marginal benefits out of try-harding than most as I'm already near the top in terms of personal professional successes. And yet I know some natural alphas living a far more entertaining life than me who are utterly lacking in professional successes for example. So it really is all relative.
AwakenedSovereign 5y ago
There is more to being Human than survival, homeostasis and reproduction. At least if you choose for there to be. Surviving is easy in most industrial nations, most of the time. Not always or everywhere depending on how Humans choose to treat each other and sometimes Earthquakes.
Looks at the Huns vs. Chinese. A people who lived on horseback and waged nomadic wars as a literal way of life for generations. The Chinese at the time were more passive.
Whose way was better? Up to you really but both had their own reasoning and successes. Being idle or being proactive is literally just a choice, YOUR choice. What you choose is up to you. What's right for you is not right for all, and some people want the things that disciplined, consistent effort can bring. Sometimes even just a discipline to work on, regardless of what it brings.
People have sought mastery over the universe, or maybe their experience, since the dawn of thinking People.
Not all of them. Mostly men. Some women. For lots of reasons. Many have been so incredibly successful that they can inspire others. Why not if to feel like it? Who cares what the reason is anyways, we are each going to make choices and choose what we want to do.
When you say "capability enhancement" I hear "fun, new, challenge". I hear Conquest, amusement, abundance. Novelty or even passion.
Everyone does this, even you, it just comes down to what you care about enough to do it for and how much you want, how much energy or ambition you can bring.
If I read this right you think applying additional effort to apparently anything is no longer a valuable use of your time and effort. Or that you have no time effort left to give to anything for whatever reason, perhaps because of existing committments.
You seem to have over invested in the concept of Personal Professional Success. Is there anything else you want to do with your Life or no? If not why are you here?
You have to spend your time the way you wish to, which is why playing video games or doing almost anything you enjoy is a perfectly valid path. Being Idle or even just Surviving is just as right as grinding out goals or "Wins" or accumulating power and experience and history.
krakarot 5y ago
yeah that was my point. I wasn't saying being a PAU is wrong I was saying its just one of those things you can do. That's my original point. TRP has a lot of people nowadays thinking the PAU is the only prototype for success and I didn't think so myself.
AwakenedSovereign 5y ago
I'd say it depends what you want to Succeed at.
Wielding power over others and making pussy crawl on its knees is what most people want to learn from TRP.
The "Ultimate Alpha" answer to all such questions is do whatever the fuck you want. As long as you aren't lying to yourself.
_Anarchon_ 5y ago
It's unfortunate you weren't around in The West in certain parts 3 or 4 decades ago. The women you're talking about still existed in certain parts of the US, particularly the South. There are still a few of them, but most of them are taken.
​
These hardcore red pillers that insist that AWALT actually don't know what the fuck they're talking about. The OP is correct that they're different in different parts of the world, and I'm telling you they've also been different throughout time. I also agree with the OP that it wasn't always wrong to be blue-pilled. It's more correct to say that it's not wise or productive to be blue-pilled in a feminist environment. But, it's perfectly fine in a more traditional environment...if you're lucky enough to find one.
krakarot 5y ago
absolutely agree with you on every point. In fact even in the most feminized societies such as Scandinavia I know a few, a very small few, who have been with their girlfriends since high school or middle school. and these people have entirely working relationships unlike the rest in their position who gave up sometime during college.
but the thing is, when one looks at the 60-70% divorce rate in those countries we are literally talking about the top 5-1%. Much like most socialist critique of capitalism especially in terms of the "temporarily disgraced millionaire", the blue-pill dream will be forever repeated in the much gloried stories of those few couples everybody knows from school who are still happily together.
I mean if these people didn't exist then I wouldn't be on redpill- they are proof that despite the harshest of societal treatments, despite the worst societal brainwashing against it, these kinds of blue-pill traditional gender role based relationships can still happen. Of course if you're on TRP and know what TRP is then you are almost surely, 99%, certain never to experience the lifelong satisfaction one gets out of these relationships.
_Anarchon_ 5y ago
Yep. It's guaranteed they won't ever experience it. I think that's something these younger guys might want to be aware of. Many of them don't know any different, or know that there are other possibilities.
​
I've lived in Asia, Europe, the middle East, and all over the US...and I've been on the planet for nearly half a century now. The West isn't the only game in town. If you're truly seeking happiness, make sure you know what other options are out there, and don't get locked into one philosophy just due to a society that fucked up and let their women get out of hand.
krakarot 5y ago
The issue is western media dominance imo. I'm seeing that Japanese animation and Chinese/non-western tv make inroads nowadays amongst young women especially teenagers in the west in unprecedented numbers compared to before. By no means a majority but an improvement nonetheless. Its making me think perhaps this is all a bad dream. A societal experiment that occurred due to the domination of Hollywood- one neighbourhood in one city in one country with more societal influence than nearly the rest of the planet combined.
_Anarchon_ 5y ago
Hollywood has certainly done what they could to create this mess. The cover of most every movie since the 1990's has a chick standing out front, with the men behind her. A single chick will kick 10 different guys' asses in a single fight. The pandering is obvious.
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Things will eventually return to how nature intended, at least temporarily. The US government will eventually collapse economically, and men will be able to defend themselves again. Then the whole cycle will begin again.
Irtotallynotrobot 5y ago
I like this post. The thoughtfulness and effort really shows. Some things I want to talk about.
There's an underlying assumption here. You're portraying that your life could either include personal success or relationship success at its Apex, not both. Your choice is to either stay in the Balkans and find the optimal relationship at the sacrifice of your career or find your stratospheric career in the US at the sacrifice of the relationship. In truth, there is no correlation between the two and whether you get either is mostly out of your control. Of course your choices matter but you must be selected by your professional superiors or women of Calibur in the given category. This produces a defeatist mentality, the sense that you're missing out no matter the choice. If the outcomes carry no correlation to one another, it would be reasonable to live without regard to consequences (not necessarily in hedonism, but behaving in ways you appreciate which you touch on).
I like the point that high value men in history were high performers, not perfection. That touches on a key difference between self actualization and crafting a jaded exterior for the sake of only manipulation.
BurnoutRS 5y ago
You define yourself and your reality through the working models of each that you are constantly constructing and redefining in your mind. The question of identity is about who you are in relation to the world in which you live.
So having said that, If you live in a world that is constructed primarily out of horseshit, you will be constantly trying to build a model of yourself, adaptive to that horseshit. Born of the horseshit, molded by it.
I'll put it to you another way. A child is born and raised off of microwaveable foods. for the first 5 years of his life the child cant see over the countertop. He only knows the sound of the microwave door opening and closing, the segment of the door that overextends the counter when it swings open.
To this child.... food comes from his parents magic box, the microwave. Now, in this world, we eventually grow up and come to see above the countertop. We come to see the microwave, the product packaging for the tv dinner. World shattering. The magic box is really just an illusion. The true magic is what happens on the shelves where the tv dinner boxes materialize overnight.
Let's assume this isnt a glaringly obvious hypothetical and, I, as the author of this reply am actually of the mind to believe just that; that products materialize from thin air on store shelves...
I've just shown to you that my beliefs are not rooted in reality. My perceptions and ideas of who Im supposed to be are derived from imaginary realities, composed from layer upon layer of imitations of the real thing. If you begin to model yourself after me, youre compouding the layers of illusion even further.
Imagine life like tetris. In most versions you have the option to skip the first 10 levels. This is for experienced players who no longer derive any challenge from the slow pace of the first 10 levels. Its kindergarten at a school you can go back to whenever you want. You skip kindergarten unless you wanna take a nap (play levels so slow, that to you, the experienced player, you might as well be napping) because the challenge, is where you learn.
On the other hand, not all beginners are created equal. Some have the stuff to jump right into level 10 and figure it out from there. The good thing with tetris is that its just a game, being born into level 10 with no previous tetris skill and losing is of no consequence.
Now imagine the levels as layers of illusory reality. Each level the amount of illusion you have to dispel to get back to what is actually real is greater, faster falling bricks at a greater volume. People being born today, are born into level 20 and they believe its level one. Until you peel back the layers, you wont realize how crazy your normal may have been.
[deleted] 5y ago
I fundamentally disagree with the premise of this post, and that's ok. I dont really give a shit if you want to reopen the door to complacency and encourage relapse into betadome (compulsion-slavery) for the masses, as it just means less driven and self-disciplined competition. Cheers on your newfound "whatever-pill" philosophy.
krakarot 5y ago
keep it up lad, I'm sure your road to perfection is the only one. I'll be sure to page JFK and the Rat Pack about how their drinking habits make them betas
[deleted] 5y ago
Likewise. I hope your endeavors to make TRP easier and more accessible for the low-effort schlub pays off in spades.
krakarot 5y ago
TRP is a discussion of sexual dynamics without feminism/political correctedness clouding your viewpoint. It includes things that are common knowledge such as being fit, successful professionally, socially, etc are things women value much more than the commonly adopted 'blue-pill' of being nice/kind/loyal/etc.
That's all. There's no extra TRP about low-effort schlubs or ultra-hardworking people who perfectly do what Prussian ideology has been arguing for for generations. its not an ideology and nor is there a 'level' that must be reached in order to succeed.
I'd argue a poor, homeless, buddist monk who's achieved his own personal religious journey and come fully in control of himself is far and away the most successful man possible as he has bested his own neurological chemicals needs and emotions. you're not even near that level so why don't you fix your path and actually try for real perfection if that is your obsession instead of gate-keeping without having read the side-bar.
[deleted] 5y ago
I'm allowed to voice my opinion in response to your brainfart. If you didn't want responses then why did you allow the thought to escape your mind? I'm not gatekeeping, but judging by the fact that you cannot stop DEERing, we can safely assume that you are.
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Now, to recap my position, I'm stating that this loosely defined "do whatever you want" approach to TRP breeds lazy half-hearted approaches. As I see it, the degeneration of our society, by and large, can be attributed to a low-effort, half-hearted blame-shifting approach to life. Without a clearly defined set of goals and self-discipline, TRP can quickly unravel into a "dudebro, do whatever, be an addict, just don't love em", retarded-ass circus show.
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As for your "Rat Pack" argument, please point out the beligerent drunk one, even amongst the "respectable" gangster culture of the 50s it was never cool to be the "Drunk". In fact, not being in control of your faculties was generally seen as a degenerate liability, and was liable to get you killed for being a beligerent clown. This perspective still exists to this day in what the upper eschalons of the hispanic gangs look down their nose at and label a "Payaso".
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You've been listening to rap music for far too long. Take control of yourself. Nothing scares women more than an emotional man that cannot control himself.
krakarot 5y ago
your responses were retarded one liners indicating your offense at my post.
your position is based on your own subjective view of society and mistakes TRP as some kind of ideology or bigger impact on society than it actually does.
your need for clearly defined sets of rules/goals/discipline is because of your own failings prior and because you believe yourself incapable of succeeding without hard work. Hard work makes success easier but success is contingent on many different factors than just self-discipline or hard-work. you're overly focused on it probably because as a lot of commenters said in this thread there's a lot of schlubs nowadays who lived the half-hearted loser life before coming on here and couldn't for the life of themselves change without establishing overly strict standards.
I don't listen to rap music nor do I spend my time intoxicated acting like a hooligan. if you can't control yourself when drunk, if you are overly aggressive when drunk, an angry drunk, dangerous to others, particularly boorish then perhaps you shouldn't drink but if the rest of us are mature and capable of it perhaps you should stop projecting your failings onto others.
I don't know what DEERing is but I do know you're not a particularly good example of a TRPer if you were so offended by a reddit post asking people to think of their own path to success for themselves. That is instead of uncritically listening to the chorus of past and some present losers on here who have a chip on their shoulder and try to overcompensate in return.
[deleted] 5y ago
For someone that has already unfucked their life, developed a MAP, and integrated the side bar; yes, the "path" one chooses to pursue is rather undefined. However, there was no disclaimer in the thread topic regarding this being a more advanced application of TRP theory. If someone newer to the program comes across this topic, they're going to take your "advice" as a carte blanche to just "do whatever", and it's not going to lead to a very productive end for them considering the "autopilot" carte blanche approach is precisely what lead them to shit ends to begin with.
That's all I'm saying.