Essay:
https://therationalmale.com/2018/03/07/transactional-vs-validational-sex/
Excerpt:
Validational Sex
When women look for that Alpha Seed in their peak ovulatory (proliferative) phase, the sex they seek is a desired sex with a man who meets evolutionary criteria. He’s the ‘hawt’ guy, or the man who leaves a woman with an perception of danger or excitement. A lot of men who don’t meet this criteria have a tendency to over-exaggerate this type of man as the ‘Alpha Chad’ and make a ridiculous parody of him as an ego protection mechanism for themselves. Let me state for the record here that every aspect and adjective that this type of guy embodies is mitigated by conditions and contexts. It is just as likely that this conventionally masculine dominant guy is only so according to his most immediate social situation. So spare me the “Chad Thundercock” anxieties.
The sex that women give “enthusiastic consent” for is validational for them. The easy assessment here is that women have a genuine desire to mate with conventionally masculine men who look and act the part – yes, behavioral congruency is vital. If you follow the research women consciously and unconsciously will actively put themselves into environments where the likelihood of their meeting a dominant masculine man who most closely matched that masculine ideal when they are in estrus. They openly and discreetly look of arousal cue from men who best embody what can only be described as Alpha Seed.
I should also add that women in “satisfying relationships” (meaning LTRs where a woman is still very hot for her husband/boyfriend) report an increase in sexual desire (proceptivity) for that guy during this phase. A lot of guys mistakenly think ANY woman will want to seek out extra-pair mating (cheating) opportunities when they’re in estrus. This is only true if a woman isn’t into her current man.
I don’t want to get too lost in the descriptions here. Rather, I want to focus on the associative feelings women get in and after having sex with that Alpha man during estrus. I would argue that Alpha Widows are made in the estrus phase. This is the sex women want to have and are enthusiastic in both the hunt and the act itself. This is largely (presumedly) the sex that men have with their wives-to-be before they marry. It’s this validational sex, the sex that women fantasize about, that men and women want to get back to once they are committed to each other monogamously but now have a dead bedroom. This sex validates a woman’s ego in that it proves to herself that a man of this SMV caliber would want to pin her to the bed and have marathon sex with her. Remember, the latent purpose of this sex, on this side of Hypergamy, is to access the sperm from men with high reproductive value as defined by what our evolved nature predisposes women to be aroused by. Validational sex is sex by choice and genuine desire, and is satisfying on both a psychological level and an evolutionary level.
Transactional Sex
One of the benefits of a concealed estrus is that it allows women a few luxuries. One of these was the ability to confuse men of their paternity. Today this confusion is little more difficult because we’ve got DNA figured out well enough to make accurate assessments, but in our evolutionary past it was important to trick cuckolded fathers into second guessing whether a child was his or not before he killed it and impregnated a woman on his own (this is also why men evolved mate guarding behaviors).
The other advantage of concealed estrus was essentially prostitution. Now, to pretty this up a bit, lets say that women who were sexual with men outside of their fertility window found that sex could be leveraged with non-Alpha men (men they didn’t want to have children with) to encourage them to help with a lot of the chores more Alpha men were less willing (but not entirely unwilling) to do. Enter transactional sex.
As mentioned, the most overt form of transactional sex is prostitution, but it’s impolite to call every woman a whore. In fact it’s impolite to even imply a woman may be having sex for other reasons than validational sex. Today women are contemplating whether or not transactional sex is itself rape since it technically meets the definition of rape (sex women don’t want to have). I discussed this “grey area sex” recently in another essay, but it’s interesting to see women wrestle with transactional sex in an era where the Future is Female and women ought to only have the (validational) sex they want to enthusiastically have.
For most men (i.e the 80% Beta men) transactional sex is where the rubber meets the road. In fact, I’d argue that for most Beta men transactional sex is the only definition of sex they ever really know. That’s kind of sad to think about, but most men never really experience the unfettered feral lust of a woman they’ve chosen to spend the rest of their lives with. I got into this in Saving the Best and Hats Off to the Bull, but I think it’s important for the average man today to acknowledge that it’s highly likely that their wives have shared parts of themselves with, and have lost all inhibitions with, men in their sexual pasts they may never know anything about. That’s a cold bucket of reality a lot of men who unplug from all this have to confront.
Marriage today is almost entirely predicated on on the transactional sex side of Hypergamy. I’m not saying it has to be, nor am I saying it always is, but I’m fairly comfortable in speculating that for most married women sex is reward she uses in the operant conditioning of her husband. And the very fact that this is effective with most husbands throws the power dynamic and Frame of the relationship firmly over to the wife. This has the effect of disqualifying that man from ever (or very rarely) being a candidate for validational sex within that marriage. And this too is another aspect of the transactional sex dynamic that modern feminists are contemplating today – if a woman doesn’t want to have sex with her husband, but does anyway, is it rape? But again, NAMALT, not all marriages are like this or have to be like this. I would also argue that a confident man whom a woman admires, who she recognizes as being above her SMV even if slightly and who has internalized Red Pill awareness within that marriage needn’t be doomed to transactional “duty” sex in his marriage.
MattyAnon Admin 7y ago
This is being resolved by having transactional sex now, and then calling it rape in the future. Best of both worlds: women gets the benefit of the transaction, but it's illegal for men to do it.
Yes, many men buy into this. At the very least they pay with exclusive commitment. Men are told (and believe) they have to earn a woman's "love", pay for it in some way, and then refer to it as an honour. Anything less would be misogyny.
In many cases, the woman is enthusiastic at the start during the honeymoon phase (ironically the actual honeymoon being the exact end of the honeymoon phase). Then she concocts a justification for her loss of interest, usually something like "it's normal for women to lose their sex drive in the long term" or if she's feeling confident of resource acquisition: "I am not your whore".
vitamann 7y ago
Well said / written.
Society has equated marriage to this. Just look at all the jokes in the media and print.
SMH
BornShook 7y ago
I dont want to sound like an idiot, but use less big words. I understood most of your post but there were a few sentances where you went so overboard with your advanced vocabulary that I actually had no idea what you were talking about. Good post though.
Rommel0502 7y ago
This touches on a concept Ive been thinking about recently. Ive read here that the consensus is on the average men need sex more than women. While I do agree with this on "the average," I don't agree with it on a more granular level.
Yes, on any given night, taking a random guy with a random girl, the guy will want sex more than the girl. That said, this average is a product of the alpha/beta 20/80 rule.
Women do not want sex with beta's. That is captured by Rollo's transactional description above. They have sex with beta's to get something from them other than sex, not for the sex itself. With four of five guys falling in the beta category, you can see how the average skews to women eschewing sex.
That said, put a woman around an alpha, especially the highest SMV alpha that she can conceivably get to fuck her, and this all changes, and it changes exponentially the closer she gets to ovulation. During ovulation, a woman's body is screaming to her - "Get a deposit of Alpha seed!" It is under those conditions you will see women act in a manner that most would consider atypical for her "personality" or "moral compass." Remember, the mating call for them is dualistic - they want alpha seed just as bad as they want to drain a beta of his resources, and we've all seen how strong that drive is.
Moral of the story, on the average, women don't want sex more than men, but put that same "average woman" around a high SMV alpha, esp when she's ovulating, and all bets are off. The crap Ive seen otherwise "good girls" do under this scenario must be seen to be believed.
Ananonguy88 7y ago
Although, If you know what she wants if she is not for the sex itself, you can still use her for sex without giving "this other thing". Sometimes it requires Sherlock skill of deduction, but gets pretty satisfying when you do that as it's not as often about resources as one would think.
Glassantler 7y ago
Im interested in hearing the shit you've seen. Can you give some examples?
TheOneWhoDidntCum 7y ago
Yeah let's see what kind of shit you've seen...
Glassantler 7y ago
They are always great stories of how shitty women actually can be. And how shitty men can be as well.
Rommel0502 7y ago
Well, I did say "must be seen to be believed," so me describing it here wouldn't do much to ameliorate your curiosity ...
Glassantler 7y ago
Very well then. Though I'm not concerned with believing it or not. Im just interested in the story.
Sly21C 7y ago
Transactional sex has less work involved...
ozenmacher 7y ago
Well said, Rollo. I pity the poor beta bux fools who get married and get the starfish transactional sex that they inevitably receive, thinking the whole time they are going to get a dutiful and loving wife, and that romantic movie sex with candles. It is an ugly world out there for most simps, as well as for most disillusioned women who buy into feminism with their daydreams of what they believe romance is, as well. Modern day feminism is ruining everyone, and the simps and manginas of the world are just making it worse. I am one of those alpha only because of "social" situation, as you mentioned above. In some men's eyes I am a manlet, a 5'5" Asian, but I have masculine qualities because of my fitness and rock climbing/mountaineering skills, rock solid frame, and my leader mentality, with a bit of that "wild independent" side that makes women horny for you. That alone gets me attention from more women than I probably deserve, but I largely attribute that partially to the total lack of masculine men left in Western society. The soy boy trend is not slowing down. Having/understanding game, letting women be the dirty girls they truly want to be, and having fun with/teasing them is all you need these days. If you have other classical masculine qualities, it doesn't take much time to sky rocket up into the 20% category.
Arabian_Wolf 7y ago
Perhaps you meant the 20% category?
ozenmacher 7y ago
Yes, you are correct. Corrected typo.
TheOneWhoDidntCum 7y ago
damn 80% category sounds like death sentence
CanuckinFL 7y ago
Interesting read, for certain, and it cognitively supports what I've experienced as well. Here's my only rejoinder. You contrast the two as though they are drastically different, in a bid to make your point. I sense it's more organic than we'd suppose. Over time the same guy who rocked her world becomes the guy waiting for sex pursuant to finding her some jewelry on a shopping trip. None of us come here without getting familiar with this second scenario. It sucks terribly for us in every respect, but it does not suck for the woman, who is thusly in control, perhaps a bit bored increasingly by such sexual power, but can then get things done. Women are driven by what they perceive as practical immediate goals.
Often, the goal is "have a boyfriend" because to do otherwise is to signal an inadequacy. Serial monogamy where the men become faceless blurs all blending into one another is what i think that mindset fosters as a result.
I won't pretend to understand female sexuality, but it does seem we are not that terribly important to them for long-and that is only as long as we occupy that place of offering validational sex. YMMV but I can't think that lasts for most couples longer than the honeymoon period (1-2yrs) at best. I don't care how alpha you are. My claim is that they get bored much quicker by sex, even good sex, and aroused much more materialistically, than we'd care to understand.
p3n1x 7y ago
Why are guys getting married before the 3-year marker is the question that should be asked? Women get "bored" because the alpha guy that made them wet goes full beta out of comfort and the silly chemicals in his brain.
Yeah, don't fucking do it anymore now that you know. Don't worry about the "others" either. Surround yourself with like-minded men.
This maybe the part you want to spend some time learning. I have never met a single woman who was "bored" by good orgasmic sex. Understand that what turned them on yesterday may not turn them on tomorrow. They
likeare chemically addicted to constant emotional change. Humans get bored by routine, so many beta males dream of a utopia of simple routine. She knows when you are bored with her well before you are cognitive of it yourself. Like the guy stated at the top, male or female, who wants to fuck a zero-desire wet noodle?alxjones 7y ago
roughly speaking they come for the Alpha traits and stay for the resources (if there are any being provided)
RandyBumgardner85 7y ago
In most of my LTR's the sex started off validational but turned transactional within a year. The only one that was validational from start to finish was a BPD who begged to be fucked in the ass 3 times a day. I bumped into her years later and it was immediately evident that I had Alpha Widowed her. She literally cried like a baby into her (extremely beta) boyfriends shoulder outside a bar for half an hour just from having a 2 minute conversation with me (in which she pressed her crotch against my thigh the entire time right in front of her boyfriend)
Only the truly crazy chicks can deliver long term hot sex and it's never worth the drama.
Ramesses_ 7y ago
I don't know what you guys are doing in your LTRs but mine have never ever transitioned to transactional. I barely have enough in me to fuck them as much as they want, some even after years. Just something to think about, obviously it's possible if your SMV is high enough and your frame is strong.
Ill_Will7 1 7y ago
I was with mine for 7 years after year 4 it went dry and i was too beta too understand what was wrong. Then out of sheer desperation i found redpill. thank god
Angu_jungle_poo 7y ago
Yes, quality shit right here man. I'll be re-reading this one regularly. ..
redpillbanana 7y ago
Rollo manages to sum up the raison d'être of TRP in two sentences. I never stop learning from his writing.
TheOneWhoDidntCum 7y ago
Fuck this is depressing. Truth does hurt. Thank you OP
Jailhouseredpilled93 7y ago
Rollo only getting 20 something upvotes? A shame because this shit is gold!
615bachelor 7y ago
Yeah the fact that this post doesn't have that many comments and likes means that a lot of men here haven't fully swallowed the red pill lol the post where the one guy in the ltr was spying and tapping into his girlfriend's cellphone has more likes than this
JamesSkepp 7y ago
Rollo doesn't write emotional hit pieces that are designed to make one feel better about himself. Post a "feel good motivational" quote from Marcus Aurelius to know how this looks like.
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EasternEuropeanLatin 7y ago
Thank you very much for this post, it was most welcome. To my mind the information provided here serves as a solid component in internalizing and understanding the driving forces and reasoning of women when it comes to having sex. Ever since I discovered and apprehended what TRP had to offer in terms of information I've associated women's opportunistical way of loving with their lust and desire for sex, and this has caused a huge dilemma in my mind. This post has made it clear to me now: it's irrelevant. The aforementioned love is out of the equation when it comes to random hookups and sex so the only 'opportunity' women seek in such situations is the sex itself. It's just the initial attraction, the game, my desire for sex and hers. I want sex, she wants it too, all that's left is let her see and realize (not CONVINCE) that I'm that man she'd have sex with, without much room left for doubt. As for relationships, it gets pretty clear in that regard too: don't let her turn sex into an exchange coin, make it clear from the very beginning that it should not/is not going to be that way and if she insists on that, there's the door.
DoctorCarder69 7y ago
I wouldn't make the claim that Women want to equate transactional sex with Rape. They need whatever it is they gain during that transaction just as much as men do, maybe even more so.
I believe you are getting washed up hags or women who have already "made it"(#metoo) confused with younger women who still have much to gain from transactional sex. The vast majority of women use and will always use transactional sex and betas for their advantage, they can't live as they normally would without betas. Although I should also add that they will always crave that validation sex deep down.
cuggwy 7y ago
What's to stop the younger women of now coming back at you when they decide it was rape in 15 years time
NubianIbex 7y ago
Great post. Just for sake of posterity, there are alternative explanations for female promiscuity in nature. Good genes/compatible genes hypothesis (aka Alpha Seed) is definitely the most intuitive, but to the best of my knowledge there hasn't been wide-scale empirical proof that extra-pair males were indeed genetically superior to social mates (in avian species I mean, in humans we can only dream of such research!). Another viable explanation is intrasex anatogonistic pleitropy. This assumes that the promiscuity is linked with other possibly beneficial personality traits such as novelty seeking behavior, risk taking and sexual desire. Resistance to extra-pair copulations may induce increased resistance to within-pair mating and reduce a female's overall fitness. Through an anthropomorphic lens, this may strengthen the argument of female traits that correlate with/signal promiscuity - tattoos, parties etc.
Evolutionary speaking (again, avian species), there are reasons for females to contain their level of extra-pair matings and resulting offspring at a reasonable equilibrium, even if they're not that into their social mate. Mainly, a cost of reduction in paternal care or aggression by the social mate (aka Dread).
Done for now with evolutionary biology of birds. My two cents about human females, aka women.
Wow, this entire post is truly thought-provoking. I suggest perhaps dividing women into two groups. One group is (often successful in the career sense) women who internalized bluepill "you go girl" mentality and projected it on their behavior towards men. They assume the traditional role of men in the courtship process, "if you want it go and get it", along with other false bluepill media promises. Such as -- through sex you will be able to attain commitment, or -- you don't need commitment at all, "girls just want to have fun". This line of thought makes a woman adopt a traditionally male conquest mentality, see bedding an unattainable Alpha as an achievement for which all means are valid. For this kind of women, validation sex isn't necessary a validation of her femininity, but of her ability to conquer men.
The other group is the women for which validation sex is a primal feminine instinct to obtain good genes/compatible genes, as Rollo described. It is often said here that women want to be controlled. While it's in a man's nature to prosper in a situation on which he has sovereignty (RPW axiom -- most good men want to lead even if they don't know it yet), a woman wants to find a good leader and submit to him. This might be another driver for women in the desire for sex with Alpha Seeds/Chads. In evolution it's often called sexy son hypothesis. If you're attracted to this big strong man, he will give you big strong sons, many other women will be attracted to them and increase the propagation of your own genes.
Throwaway_5252 7y ago
“I took her out furniture shopping, I moved on her like a BITCH.”
9/10 I like paying for it. Since I’m rather decent looking it usually doesn’t feel like a business transaction once the girl gets into it. Time is money and paying for it is the easiest and most cost effective way to attain sex.
https://youtu.be/4r-etM1w_wE
[deleted] 7y ago
Rollo's point is validational sex equates to no hole's barred, wanton lust from women. A type of behavior that can't be paid for.
Throwaway_5252 7y ago
I understand his argument, but I’ve experienced the opposite. Some of the most passionate sex I’ve ever had has been with escorts. One of whom became my ladyfriend. It has potential to be cold and mechanical but other times, when the connection is there and everything clicks, there is no difference between the energy and enthusiasm the girl gives out.
So not only can this behavior be bought and paid for, but if your a decent looking guy that’s attractive to begin with, she’s not gonna have a hard time getting turned out for you.
empatheticapathetic 7y ago
I'm an escort guy (necessity not choice) but what's your point?
Throwaway_5252 7y ago
I'm saying sometimes it doesn't matter that money is involved. If you're a decent looking guy who knows how poke the squid the right way, she's not gonna have to pretend to enjoy the sex. Escorts are humans too. I've had many tell me they enjoy having sex with a fair amount of their clients because, despite popular belief, many men who use escorts are not your stereotypical loser with no other options.
Ananonguy88 7y ago
Now that I am aware of this duality, I basically can't sleep with a girl unless she is FUCK YES into me. Anything else makes me feel like a cuck. When I don't see desire in her, I don't chase. You can't negotiate desire.
p3n1x 7y ago
No, but you sure as hell can increase its intensity.
I understand what you are aiming at, but for any of the new guys, don't mistake this comment because you are just being lazy and want pussy to jump on your face with zero effort.
CanuckinFL 7y ago
agreed 150%. I still open, but I have to have some positive signals. And i'm quick to be put off the hunt if it exists. Otherwise, I have things to do, and I have plates already. If it ain't cute and FUCK YES into me, I'm bailing. I've no time for talk, which is what often begins to occur a lot when it shifts to transactional intent. I want none of that sex.
[deleted] 7y ago
All that matters is results. Don't let ego get in the middle of an opportunity. 90% of the time women have no rational idea of what they want and need.
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Ananonguy88 7y ago
True that. Sex for validation is bp thing, but still, no one will deny that this look in woman's eyes is one of the strongest fuels you can experience.
JamesSkepp 7y ago
Just don't mistake initial lack of attraction for not being into you. It's a shit test, more often than not.
max_peenor 7y ago
Or natural inhibitions. There are women that have a hard time letting go, no matter how much they really want to let go. They will latch on to a guy that they think will help them get past it, but they will not act overtly into the guy. Watch for puppy dogs or shadows. They are thinking something they are not saying. Once they let go, look out, because it'll get heated.
TallDarkandBot 7y ago
This this this. I've had a few girls not sleep with me on the first date because they were shit testing me and making me wait... Only to find out from them a month later that they wanted to and were wet.
Edit: what I'm saying is i usually sleep with them the second time we hangout and then a few weeks later find out they wanted it on the first.
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HonestyOverCivility 7y ago
That’s the problem with a marriage...you’ll almost never get “FUCK YES” sex once the honeymoon period is over. Accordingly, all sex effectively becomes negotiated sex where’s a lot of “we’ll I’d probably be more inclined to have sex with you if you did XYZ”. What’s interesting though is what happens when you as the man start to pull back a bit and she’ll very quickly become anxious about you not trying for sex anymore
p3n1x 7y ago
This is part bullshit.
I would argue that the majority of the time it is the Husband fucking up. Being complacent, comfortable and lazy about keeping her wet. Most guys want to believe the Disneyland story, they want to think they will get the worlds greatest blowjob for doing the dishes or watching lifetime while rubbing her feet.
A "transaction" takes a minimum of two participants.
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empatheticapathetic 7y ago
There was nothing left to look forward to. You'd fulfilled all criteria at that point. All that's left is money and maybe status.
man192837465 7y ago
I’d feel more like having sex on this vacation if you were paying for it as men are supposed to do...
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thewrecker8 7y ago
All men think they're marrying a nymphomaniac up until they get married. Then after marriage the nympho leaves and the maniac stays.
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aigamithite 7y ago
I don't think this is a recent development. I may have not lived back then but I doubt the 50s were better. It's just the way the American dream works and it permeates all relationships. Friends, relationships, acquaintances, strangers; it's all about "what can you do for me?".
While this system is stable as long as you provide the general populace with enough junk food, porn and worthless junk to sate their primal drives (along with meds and psych health care providers), when the money stops flowing it will collapse on itself. Humans are not designed to operate like that; that's why, from what I have seen, people in poorer countries are happier on average, form stronger bonds and need less psychological help.
Perhaps this is why such ridiculous ideologies are so prevalent right now; because of the innate need to belong to a community, something that the western society is incapable of providing. It all just seems like a post-modern dystopia where everyone is unhappy deep down. This country has everything but genuine human interactions; everything has to be "polite" and "civilized" until you get to your shrink and spill the beans and maybe hope for a magic pill that's gonna make you happy.
p3n1x 7y ago
If you are a strong enough man, she will believe whatever you believe. As GLO said, don't run your relationship like a douchy business.
[deleted] 7y ago
Good one Rollo
Most men have no idea how bad women can be. A ripped physique, bossy attitude and most importantly, a non needy, non judgemental demeanor will keep a woman addicted to the feels she gets sucking your cock and spilling secrets over pillow talk to the man that gets it
40rouge 7y ago
Spot on with this. I'm consistently amazed how few guys understand that you really can distill it down to these few core concepts and reap the benefits a thousand times over the average shmuck.
mghibli 7y ago
If you don’t know the difference btw the two, chances are very high you’ve only had Validational.
ENOUGH_TRUMP_SPAM_ 7y ago
Will the irrational male ever use actual scientific process?
Solon64 7y ago
Evolutionary psychology IS actual scientific process. Anthropology studies cultures and civilizations that have died out and thus cannot be directly observed and tested but is still considered perfectly valid and legitimate science. EvoPsych is the same thing, using clues from our history to formulate hypotheses about our modern behavior.
Perhaps the findings are vaguely distasteful, but that alone does not make them FALSE, do you understand? I'm sure many of us men here would LOVE to see some of these studies disproven but most of the conjectures are logical, rational, and observably true.
I personally would be very pleased if I could disregard working out, treating relationships as something other than dominance/submission power struggles, and be with a woman who didn't care about those things but was with me for who I am, but my experiences along with many others' have shown that mindset to be not grounded in reality.
Before TRP i was a clueless beta. After TRP, i can look at every past relationship I ever had under an EvoPsych lens and understand EXACTLY why a girl lost interest in me, what I did to disgust them, what other guys did to seduce girls, and so on.
That's why it's called the red pill: after you've seen the matrix, you can never truly go back to how you were before.
Your reaction is one borne out of an ego investment into something you think or wish were true but is observably not. Spend a little more time here, read the sidebar material/research, analyze your past experiences through them while resisting the urge to shout "but that just sounds so wrong!" That is your ego talking.
People said the same thing about Copernicus when he declared that the Earth was not the center of the universe, and his studies were found out to be much more true than the idea of the sun revolving around the Earth. That is where the red pill is now: we are suggesting that the Earth revolves around the sun. Backwards to modern thinking, but I believe you'll find it much more congruent with how intersex mechanics actually work.
We're modern-day Copernicus's here.
ENOUGH_TRUMP_SPAM_ 7y ago
These aren't long dead societies. Use real science.
Rollo-Tomassi 7y ago
https://therationalmale.com/2014/12/17/estrus/
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