[9/27, 21:04] Me: I just wanted to inform you that your mom sent an Uber to deliver carrot cake that she made. So I have put it in the fridge, and we will both hold our peace so there will be enough peace to eat soon.
[9/27, 21:06] My Wyfe: I'm not doing therapy with you
[9/27, 21:15] Me: We can barely talk about things anymore other than banal day-to-day things, otherwise it would cause a fight. This means our marriage is currently dysfunctional. You have said it is impossible to talk to me like 3 to 10 times, and I can't seem to get through to you either. Hopefully it can be solved within a few days like our other bad fights in the past. If not, the only way is to get a third-party: A therapist, friend, counsellor, family member, or anyone to help us communicate again and solve it.
[9/27, 21:15] My Wyfe: BECAUSE OF YOU
[9/27, 21:17] My Wyfe: It feels like a trap
[9/27, 21:18] Me: I have said that the third party can also be from your side, to avoid any conflict of interest.
[9/27, 21:19] My Wyfe: It's all because what I say is not important
Here is a copy of my messages sent to my sister-in-law for context:
[9/27, 14:36] Me: We're currently fighting. I'm trying to be a better leader, but perhaps it makes things look worse before they get better.
[9/27, 20:47] Me: Hello, our marriage is in danger. I don't think there will be enough peace at home for [you to visit] tomorrow. I can't talk to her anymore without a third party, and she feels the same way about talking to me. I urgently need a couple's therapist, but she doesn't accept that yet. So our communication has just died, you know? Help from any third party is crucial.
[9/27, 21:00] Me: I think [we as a couple] worked during the 3 years we have been married because I tolerated and prioritized her happiness, but now the time has come for me to prioritize both: her happiness and mine too, because I'm the leader of the family (de facto, and she agrees and wants these roles); the health of my soul or the lack of it spreads to everyone within the family. It affects all areas: progress, happiness, finances, health, and much more. It's been 3 years, so the time has come for me to put my happiness on the same level as hers.
[9/27, 21:44] Me: I think [the problem is] that I want to do what I want without worrying "Would this make her happy or sad?" more frequently than is healthy, and she takes things too personally that don't have much to do with her and gets scared of making me sad; and now she wrote that she doesn't want any third party because talking to one automatically means that I belittle what she wants to say.
Update [27/09, 22:33] I decided to go to another state far away for 7 days so I can have some air (I have never done this before, as I don't want to, and furthermore it would really rock the boat, as her father can be controlling) and in hopes that she might agree to the therapy during and that we might solve it with a therapist remotely before I come back.
So that got me thinking that I didn't want the terrible fight to be my last memory. So I said, "We definitely cannot solve this now, but I got worried that this would be my last memory, in case I die tonight, so I'll hug you now."
During the long hug, she asked me if I really think a third party or therapist would help, and if so, I could get one.
I didn't reveal it to her, but this made me really mad as I lost my reason for the break, as the fight was really bad and I wanted some time for myself.
This "theme" has happened so many times (in the past 3 to 4 years of us together) that I feel played. Every time, she repeatedly says something I believe deserving of a break or other consequences (in this case, "I'm not doing therapy with you"), and as soon as I hug her, she says "Okay we can do therapy," and expects everything to be fine.
Every time in the past I forgive her just like that, but even though she sounded sincere with the apology just now, the fight was so bad that now I really feel played and tested.
I always like to ask if I'm wrong first, so am I in any wrong here?
Update [28/09, morning] This morning before going out and having some time to myself, I hugged her as I really do love her despite things not currently working out. However, we starting talking and in less than 2 minutes it became a fight before I stopped it and reminded her that we needed and had agreed to get a therapist first. This makes me still feel like going somewhere far away to fix it remotely can be justified, as we are too dysfunctional right now, and I can't afford being dysfunctional as I work from home and need the environment to be more or less calm in order to work properly. Our bank balance is currently low as well so I can't just argue all day or be too sad or affected to work.
Jackmoter 3d ago
Bro fuck therapy. You're telling her that you're not strong enough to be a good leader and you need a therapist.
YOU need therapy. And maybe she does too, but going to a counsellor is not going to magically fix your marriage.
Go to the marriedredpill subreddit right now. Here's even a link for you https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/
Go there, devour their material. Write a post in their Own Your Shit Forum and begin your journey.
The key tenant is STFU. Don't tell your sister in law you're trying to be a better leader STFU and be a better leader. NEVER ARGUE WITH A WOMAN. STFU.
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 1d ago
Haha bro dw therapy was like the last ditch option, and a popular one, so that's why. But yeah you're right it diminishes my authority. It's not needed anymore after upping my game reading all the advice here.
Thanks for the link which I will go to and learn more.
I'll look at that forum.
I used STFU and it worked. I have update about that and about other stuff here, so do read: https://www.forums.red/p/asktrp/324491/update_i_revealed_to_my_wife_of_3_years_that_i_never_had_or
Vermillion-Rx Admin 3d ago
I try not to comment on marriage questions because I am anti marriage and I have a bias to respond to them in a way i would reject a plate for bullshit and that's not an appropriate response to a man with shit to lose
That being said why the fuck are you insisting on therapy?
First of all, relationship therapists make money off the woman, not the man. Men want solutions and these therapists know if they have the woman in the office and are honest with them they will lose their primary customer. The therapist will triangulate because they need pay.
They will throw the woman bones that are unhelpful to the man entirely because of they don't the woman will bail the sessions. Fuck that. You are quite literally trying to get her to see a "professional" in which their interest an livelihood will be to appease her bullshit or lose income.
Stop it.
Secondly, you are the man why the fuck aren't you leading? Half your problems in this marriage would disappear if you lead.
I highly suspect you do not understand male/female dynamics much at all. Women get combative, anxious, and uncooperative when a man refuses to lead
Any time you make a woman do a man's job (even as an equal) in a relationship you are asking her to assume a relationship role that is not natural or healthy to or for her. Asking a woman to lead is one of the worst things you can do in a relationship
What even started this in the first place? What was the marital issue that led to all of this? Sex, money, faithfulness, values, goals, bad family members?
What was it? There's always something but for sure not leading as a man is going to fuck any relationship
I agree with Matty that if you don't have kids and not much to lose you should consider leaving this. It's often far easier to start over than to salvage a turd.
That or you need to actually lead your marriage and have the appropriate male role in your relationship.
It's nearly impossible to determine what your underlying marital problems are considered you haven't told us anything other than details of fights and no context for how any of this came about to begin with
You're clearly not leading. Much at all. What's with these hugs? Lead ffs
Always DARE never DEER with women
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 1d ago
Thanks man, the DARE vs DEER is a life changer. I implemented it.
Spot on about the therapy. I had used it initially as it's the most popular option in society for couples with endangered marriages. But then again, they're grifters and it diminishes my authority and leading abilities. I now implement DARE and STFU and no therapist or third party needed anymore.
Yeah I thought I knew well about male/female dynamics, but I now have found out (and thanks to you guys) that what I knew was just the tip of the iceberg.
I have a new update and it also includes more background and context on our relationship, so do read it here: https://www.forums.red/p/asktrp/324491/update_i_revealed_to_my_wife_of_3_years_that_i_never_had_or
First-light 2 4d ago
From my perspective, it is hard to see why things are wrong, only that you have had a big argument and you want to go to therapy and she is reluctant. Why are you arguing a lot? Why do the arguments not go constructively?
In my opinion, as a rule therapists tend to side with women who express hurt and men seldom get much from them, particularly if they express frustration but perhaps she is very out of order and they will see it and help her with it. However, why she is out of order is not there in your post.
I think you are fortunate that she is so ready to make up. Most women tend to be slow to let grudges go. She appears to be genuinely willing to work with you when you show her affection and this is very positive. Perhaps it is something you can work with as it gets her to the table.
I still don't know what is really the source of friction though. I think if you can explain that, we can help more.
throwaway415 1 3d ago
dont be so sure. while many women are skilled at creating the appearance that they have forgiven you and are not holding a grudge, they often still do and will act it out in passive aggressive ways, which may be why this is such a recurring issue for OP
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 3d ago
Thank you for the perspective and the more optimistic view. You're right; I should appreciate that part more. She is special and different after all and I did choose her. Perhaps the key can be me showing affection/assurance to get her to agree work on things, but me still having the upper hand and not being a wimp. I think that might be possible, so I'll think about it further.
There are a lot of sources of friction since she comes from a family where dad is controlling and acts like a prison master to the whole family; mom not allowed to have a phone kind of shit.
However the friction that is getting everything stuck currently is this (and I am starting to think that perhaps it's my fault as I created it or didn't regulate it well): I valued freedom of expression in the home. And the purpose was so that she doesn't need to be scared to express her feelings so I am in the know and I can care for her properly, contrasting to how she had to hide all her feelings from her dad. But I feel she is currently abusing it by saying terrible things (e.g. I hate this house). Now trying to enforce some rules around this makes her feel like walking on egg shells.
She also recently read a book recommended by the RPW community about men "For Women Only". (I sent her a few chapters which I read and agreed with but maybe i made the mistake of letting her read the whole book on her own.) After reading the book, she just felt like, "Wow I can't do this, as it is disrespectful. I don't know what's disrespectful and what is okay anymore," kind of thoughts.
I had really felt I had been walking on egg shells the past 3.5 years, and so I said to her that it's at least fair to switch it around and we can evaluate it in a couple months how we feel. And she agreed at first as she generally wants to serve and please me, but we had one of the worst fights where it was out of control for her, although I behaved stoicly. Hope that helps. Further thoughts?
throwaway415 1 3d ago
her dad sounds like an actual leader. does he have the type of problems with his wife that you are having with yours?
Bingo! she had a strong male father figure in her life who kept her bad behavior in check, but then she married you, and you threw that paradigm away and replaced it with a "safe space" that doesnt control her bad behavior. now you see the results
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 3d ago
Well you have a point. Her dad and I have different problems with our families.
He rules more out of fear, so everyone hates him and disrespects him behind his back; never in front of his face. The family is broken within. He "holds his childrens' hands" and closes car doors for them and they get insecure about their ability to close a car door, as an example, but the structure is maintained.
The wife and children all lie to him from time to time in order to get what they want, with an amount that I feel is abnormal. Plus, they are miserable.
He and his wife have sex after showering, so I recently learned his wife puts saliva in her vagina before she comes out of the shower so he wouldn't scold her for being dry, losing attraction to him, accusing her of cheating.
Well I don't have those problems, and because of the "safe space" I know my wife really is attracted to me and is into me. I won't say "love" as admin mattyanon here has ruined it for the time being.
However, it is time for some balance and some rules for the "safe space". I am just trying to figure that out currently and that's why I'm here. I don't want to be like her father and have her lubricating her vagina with her saliva behind my back.
throwaway415 1 3d ago
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NJAkIXYA2iM
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 3d ago
Nice short. I see your point. But there's a healthier fear (respect) and an unhealthier fear (terror). Sometimes it's hard to draw the line. Obviously you don't want to tyranize your whole family into obedience yet have them complain about you all day everyday till the point of having suicidal thoughts. There should be a healthy balance where they complain sometimes but honestly like the way things are done.
First-light 2 3d ago
Thanks there is a bit more to go on there. We learn a lot unconsciously from our parents. She comes from a house where all the control was provided by her father, where it was his way or the highway. She may also have inherited his temper or emotional inability to tolerate anything being a little unsettling (its all fine if its his way and he is keeping them "safe", he can't handle it if its challenging to him emotionally). This may not be the root of your problem but it will certainly exacerbate things -she does not know how to regulate herself.
She does not know what a moderate response looks like. Either you shut the fuck up or you blow your top. She has not seen successful debate. Success is being a control freak and she has half of a control freak's genes. Here good therapy might help I think.
I fear a little that if you take anything RP to therapists -university educated middle class liberals- you may find yourself being painted the problem. It will need to be the right therapist who looks at how the couple work together not listens to the woman's emotion.
I think you will need to take the lead because she has no idea what a good leader looks like. I suggest not trying to work out too many rules as they unsettle her -breaking a rule is a sin in the house she comes from. Try to gently and warmly lead by healthy example and stand back from her a bit when she blows her top, engaging with her when she has calmed.
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 3d ago
Thanks again. She definely inherited it. So she needs to break the cycle. I believe I was naive to think she could not inherit it due to her hating it, but it's the very thing that happened. We learn bad behavior even though we hate it. It sucks.
Yeah it's so true she doesn't know what a moderate response is like. It came to my attention a few weeks ago and I started to plan some activities we can do together as like a "team rapport building" exercise.
As I have already said in a response to one of throwaway415's other comments
~ start quote ~
Well, in that case I want to love the most and have the most power. I'll see if it's possible to reassure her while disciplining her at the same time. I think it's possible, and hopefully that the results will make the sacrifice worth it, is all I can say.
Yeah I'm iffy about therapy but I mentioned it because it's the most popular socially agreeable term. I actually meant any third party. I know that this forums says seeking women's help can be counterintuitive, but we got to such a rock bottom that we were not able to even have a civil conversation that even her mom would help. Of course, a male pastor might be a better option, who knows. ~ end quote ~
Additionally, to save on therapy and even to be able to forego it altogether, I have a feeling that it would work to disengage when she's fighting and only talk when she's not fighting. When she's fighting I can even see if it's effective to throw a curveball, like "I love you./You're beautiful." shutting her fight up and giving her reassurance at the same time? Idk, someone suggested it so I can try it since I really do think she's physically beautiful. I told her a couple hours ago that I will train her to talk this way, and then we might not need a 3rd party, and we managed to have a conversation for the first time in a few days. She seemed open to the idea of being trained. Of course, mileage may vary in practice.
I also found out for the first time that me demanding an apology from her is very different from vice versa. When I do it, it's usually because she said something impulsive and emotional like "I hate this house" and I want to find out if she means it. When she does it, she wants me to regret something I deliberately did after weighing the risk and reward. So I told her that her apology demands don't work as it involves changing my values, reminded her that she can leave me now at 4 years rather than enduring it for 40 years, and she was accepting of it finally. (although of course women can change their mind later, but 'tis a good start.)
We also had a "reconciliation sex" after this conversation, in which she called me "My husband. My leader. My dream." For the first time she inserted the word "leader" in there, so that was nice. I know my mileage may vary during the next fight but it's a good re-start.
First-light 2 3d ago
Well done to reconcile.
I think something to be aware of is that we train people with praise. If you occasionally throw in a curved ball "Gosh you are lovely" its great as an occasional hand grenade that stops the fire fight but do it too often and you may even get her fighting with you just to get the compliment. Its just Pavlovian conditioning. Reward good behaviour not bad 99% of the time. Be generous the other 1% as a peace offering from a mature and kind adult.
Generally its best to refuse to be drawn into argument. Women feel hurt strongly but lack self control. When they are hurling abuse at you and being disrespectful and you then hurl a little anger and frustration back, they remember it while you will have forgiven everything once you have nutted in her again, maybe even just when she smiled at you genuinely again. If women fling shit, they deserve it back but they can't always handle it and in her case she is used to a zero tolerance policy with a little Hitler getting heated up. If she starts to think of you that way it will dry her up just like her mum.
I would suggest detachment but not punishment through detachment when she kicks off. If you go off for the weekend fishing, its a punishment. If you won't talk to her until she has apologised its a humiliation for her to apologise just to get you to reply and that can let in bitterness. Women don't think well detached, they tend to think wholistic, so if she feels bitter its not because she quarrelled like a teenage brat, its because her relationship is wrong.
I think your biggest problems are the inherited one and the fact that this gives her fear of transgression. She is on eggshells and if you are upset its serious (as she knows form watching her dad, that she feels is unfair and so she kicks off.
Most little Hitlers who are the ruler and protector of their family stopping kids crossing roads without their hands being held when they are old enough to be riding the streets on a bike and fearing thier wife having enough independence to be fully useful to the family are really huge cope addicts protecting themselves from being unsettled. She needs to see you can cope with her and remain a rock that she can anchor her life on. Its not easy. Its a constant dance between ignoring bad behaviour like some libtard cuck and turning into little Hitler who can't handle female weakness. You need to constantly consciously steer a course between these rocks. She will tell you you get it wrong a lot more than you do. One thing about women -they will complain, even the good ones. Anxiety leads them to feel they have a burden on them.
Traditionally minded church women can be very good as well as male pastors. A church woman from a pastoral team who enacts St Paul's advice for how women should behave, might be more powerful than a pastor in actually leading by example not laying down the law. You might get a couple who are church elder types?
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 1d ago
You're right. In the end I didn't use the compliment curveball for that reason and also it is kind of disrespectful to have the compliment ignored or even mocked. Sticking to STFU (as one commentator said) would suffice.
I can relate to what you said about forgiveness. I see what you mean about the no-tolerance policy.
The viability to execute detachment for me is limited as I don't like to lie about "going fishing" when I would prefer to do work, and I work from home so yeah. Plus, I later have realized that I get frustrated that I cannot feel home at home, so I'd just like to handle the root directly.
The little Hitlers illustration is spot on. Her dad is a real cope addict indeed, from what I see about his perceived reality Vs the reality. You're right that the steering part is so hard. When she was receptive, I communicated this to her about being a man, and perhaps she got it. Now that we have this new update I'm not sure if we could approach church people anymore... lol. But luckily we're okay now so far with communication, and as a leader who has upped his game, I'll keep tabs on the communication. Ahh, I know. Perhaps I will find a male elder and female elder with my values that could help us. Do read my new post with the current update: https://www.forums.red/p/asktrp/324491/update_i_revealed_to_my_wife_of_3_years_that_i_never_had_or
mattyanon Admin 4d ago
What is going on besides the fights and the therapy thing?
Why do you keep fighting?
Does she say something offensive, or just snap at you, or are you saying the wrong thing?
No offense, but you don't seem very aware of male-female dynamics or have much awareness of what's going on for her. You're blaming her for starting a fight, but (and I know this is offensive, bear with me) you don't seem to know how to negotiate with women or how to deal with them.
A fight is always a win for the woman and she will always blame you for starting it and will blame you for how you behaved and what you said during it, which she will excuse all her own behaviour and actions as completely natural.
So you don't fight with women. You simply do not do it.
I suspect that:
Therapy is pointless unless you both genuinely want it to work. It's too easy to sabotage otherwise.
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 3d ago
Don't worry, I don't mind being offended as I value honest critical input and advice is more helpful when it challenges me.
Right now the fights are because we're so confused what to say to not make one another mad. I think for the first time I try to prioritize my own happiness on the same level as hers, not worrying anymore about what she thinks every time I do something. Unfortunately this time, when I went out for a 6-hour cycle, was when she also needed some "woman assurance" that she didn't get. She asked "Are you happy with me," to which I answered one word "Yes" as I was out, and she gave me so much shit for it. I defended myself, "I was genuine and honest and it was a quick text," but she wouldn't have it. Later that day I said currently the answer is "I'm not sure," and she quipped "At least that's more than one word!"
We don't currently have children yet, but she did have an anembryonic pregnancy last quarter.
I can't disagree that I don't know how to negociante or deal with women. This is my first relationship after all. I'm 27 and she will be turning 23.
Your paragraph about "a fight is always a win for the woman" is scarily and sadly accurate.
I'll try to not to do it. (fight)
I'd say she hasn't lost attraction as we usually have sex often (few times a day to few times a week). About respect, she does try but I feel she has a nature she can barely control that disrespects me, and I have let her disrespect in the past, out of understanding, out of love, but now I'm tightening the respecting.
She doesn't have leverage over me in those ways you mentioned. However, her leverage is that I had to be very submissive to her controlling dad, and by extension, to her. Things have improved over the past years of her moving in with me after the wedding (we're all more traditional), but it feels like back to square one with the recent arguments due to me trying to tighten things, leading better, and not letting her control me anymore.
Hopefully this makes my situation clearer. Go ahead and be frank with me as it's more helpful to me.
We both genuinely want it to work and I am quite devastated that it took so little to be completely dysfunctional. Like, was the foundation we built built on sand?
mattyanon Admin 3d ago
ok, i'm going to be brutally honest with you.
Get the fuck out while you still can. You don't have kids, it can be a fairly clean break.
You're talking about now having kids "yet".... but things will be 100x worse if you do.
I see that you're trying. I don't see that she's trying. She looks to fly off the handle over stupid little things, and she's doing that thing where she has just no recognition or care about who YOU are, and what YOU want.
The reality is that there just is no foundation. This is real life. This is not disney. It just doesn't work that way. Read up TRP concepts like The Lightswitch Effect, Briffault's Law, and even Alpha fucks / beta bucks. It's standard and well known stuff.
Marriage works not because of a mutual foundation of love, but because of the state-threatened consequences of divorce. If it was based on a mutual foundation of love, there would be no need for marriage.
Right.
Yeah, this isn't going to get any better.
You probably won't listen to me, you'll probably "try and make it work".
Good luck to you either way.
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 3d ago
Yeah but thanks anyway. This is where we disagree as I'm religious.
However it might help to "rock the boat" before having kids, as an extra precaution. As throwaway415 said, it's my boat.
Well you're right that it's like she didn't want to try, but now she does, if you've read my updates above. We may have had a petty argument this morning but the third party/therapist is still on. It could even be a male pastor if that helps. The switching is very tiring and frustrating, but since she does want to try now, I have to proceed.
The Lightswitch Effect, Briffault's Law, and even Alpha fucks / beta bucks I just read and it's honestly quite depressing to read, but of course there must be truth to it.
State-threatened consequences of divorce doesn't apply to us. We don't live in the states and being young and poor we don't have much to lose.
However what she does have to lose is, thinking about it, I guess, her freedom from her controlling dad. It would suck to think that this is the foundation that's keeping us together, and not love. Even if it is, it was a miracle for her that I helped to bring about, but shit is what I get when I try to now prioritize my happiness. I shall think more on this lol.
Do you have any advice for religious people who uphold marriage?
mattyanon Admin 3d ago
Nope
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 3d ago
Oh well. That's also the case with admin Vermillion-Rx I suppose. But I appreciate your advice and perspective. I'll take what I can.
Musicgoon78 3 3d ago
It seems to me like you want to fix it and she doesn't. I don't want to be an asshole but she doesn't seem to care. It sounds like she has some deep rooted emotional issues she needs to address. Brother, if you think the relationship is dysfunctional and no one is arguing with you, guess what? Your relationship is certifiably "in a bad way". Why would you want to live like this?
She is going to fight you every step of the way. I used to take time away from my abusive ex wife. She would be nice for a few days, then back to being shitty. Soon you're going to find yourself resenting being home with her.
So I'll ask again if you want to live like this or be happy? You cant spend the rest of your life getting blamed for shit and having your requests ignored.
I suggest you work on your happiness. Focus on your life being drama free and fun. If she doesn't like it she can kick fucking rocks. Be kind to yourself and also respect yourself as a capable man.
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 3d ago
No worries about sounding like an asshole as I value frank words. She definitely has deep rooted issues.
I don't want to live like this so that's why I'm searching for answers, with fixing it as the first priority and leaving as the last ditch solution.
Your paragraph about your ex wife is scarily relatable. I don't want to be fighting every few days. I guess 1-3 times a month is better. But I think I get stressed, hurt, or devastated by how easily and randomly the fight can happen, rather than the quantity of fights. It's like, is our foundation and marriage built on sand?
Hope this helps, in case you wanna reply more.
Again thanks for your frank words.
Musicgoon78 3 3d ago
There's nothing worse to me than walking in a virtual minefield. You don't know when something will blow up.
Even if you're not fighting you're going to be on high alert all the time, which is exhausting. You deserve something stable. Its not your job to fix her problems, that's her job.
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 3d ago
You're right; it's exhausting. Let's help me find out how to get me and hopefully her as well out of the minefield.
Musicgoon78 3 3d ago
Look brother, shes the one planting the mines and moving them on you.
Here's what you can do: Withdraw time and attention and work on yourself. Reward good behavior with time and attention.
If she doesn't get upset with you being less available, then your marriage is cooked. But you have to work on yourself and be around her less. This is the only option except just being miserable.
It either works well, or you know that your relationship isn't saveable. You can't force her to give a shit.
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 3d ago
Don't you mean "If she gets upset with you being less available, then your marriage is cooked."?
kawzero 3d ago
Nope bro, I've read everything from start and I'm sure he ment what he said.
"If she doesn't get upset with you being less available, then your marriage is cooked"
INTERPRETATION: A woman who values you, respects you, and is really really really concerned abt your union with her, will get mad when "you withdraw attention."
It makes her worried abt the union. Thoughts like:
"Is he seeing som1 else?" , "what hv I done wrong?" , "Does he still love me?" Etc Start crossing her mind. Hence, the reason for her being mad when you withdraw attention.
Because she really really cares about what you guys have and share.
Hope this clarifies?
Always remember you're the head/leader. She has to be willing/happy to enter your frame. That's the only way you know she values you.
Take control of your marriage bro, especially now that you're still young. You have many years ahead.
Goodluck, Champ.
.
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 1d ago
Thanks man for explaining! I have a new update, so do read it: https://www.forums.red/p/asktrp/324491/update_i_revealed_to_my_wife_of_3_years_that_i_never_had_or I think she values me but perhaps not enough!
Musicgoon78 3 3d ago
Yup. You put that beautifully! Thanks!
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 1d ago
Great! Btw do read my new update: https://www.forums.red/p/asktrp/324491/update_i_revealed_to_my_wife_of_3_years_that_i_never_had_or Thanks again for your help.
kawzero 3d ago
No p, bro. Just hope he understands and executes all he has been told here.
throwaway415 1 3d ago
As you are probably now learning (the hard way), marriage in the 21st century is usually a very big mistake for men, especially if you havent thoroughly vetted the woman for LTR suitability first.
This probably won't be of much help to your current situation now, but how long did you know this woman before marrying her? Did she exhibit any of these behaviors then? These are things you should think about in future relationships. My rule is simple, if you have ANY doubts or concerns at all, DO NOT MARRY HER.
This is a mistake. By doing this, you let her control the frame. You give them an inch, they take a mile. You should always prioritize yourself over them. If what makes you happy makes her unhappy, too bad. I honestly wouldn't have even married her if that was the case. a woman who is truly marriage material submits to her husband. Period.
Are you sure about that? (insert John Cena meme)
If she is causing you all this stress and you are walking on egg shells, she is the one in charge, not you.
Why would it take 3 years for your happiness to become a priority? your happiness should have been and remained your priority since the day you were born.
This is loss of frame and a prime example of how she is the one who holds the power in your relationship. While it is good to consider her feelings, worrying like that is an indication of an unhealthy and unbalanced relationship. you are the man and you are the one who should be holding the power. you should not be going through life constantly worrying if what you do or say bothers her.
here's the thing, youre trying to appeal to her logically and talking it out with her like a grown, mature adult. the problem is women aren't mature adults. they are mentally children. you cant appeal to their logic because logic is an alien concept to them. for women, feels always trump reals.
Good. worrying about "rocking the boat" is loss of frame. you are the captain of the boat. you rock it whenever the hell you want, its your boat, and any woman you marry must respect that.
Are you starting to see the pattern here? You are always worried, and that means you are not in control. and this kind of stuff is just going to make her lose more respect for you. is this the behavior of a strong confident leader?
imagine for a moment that you are a soldier on a battlefield, and the commanding officer of your squad, the man who is supposed to be your leader, is constantly panicking and telling you how much he is worried. is that reassuring for you? or does that make you doubt his competence as a leader? thats not to say that the co never worries - alas - with great power also comes great responsibility and in truth they have plenty of things to worry about, but does venting their emotions to their subordinates help anything? or does that simply erode morale? women dont want to be with a man who is an emotional mess and is always worried about everything. they want a strong, confident leader who believes in himself.
this is a symptom of frame loss. you are letting a woman influence your emotional state. we are all human beings and we all experience emotions like this, its normal, but you are also a man and you must learn to control your emotions and not let women push your buttons like that.
if you keep forgiving her bad behavior, it will only reinforce it. women are like children. if your child keeps misbehaving and causing problems, but you keep forgiving them instead of disciplining them like a responsible parent would, what is the result? they become out of control and grow up to be a menace. dont reward bad behavior.
honestly man this seems to me like a pretty terrible situation all around. youre an emotional mess, this woman is in control of your relationship which means its failure is inevitable, your financial situation is bad, and you have repeatedly lost frame to the point where I dont even know if you can salvage this marriage.
sometimes when you make big mistakes like this, all you can do is take your L, learn your lesson and dont repeat the same mistakes again. you should have vetted her first before marrying her. this kind of bad behavior can be detected before you decide to marry and you should have caught this early on before digging yourself into the hole youre in now. you also have to be the actual leader in the relationship. if you yield that role the way you have in your marriage, the woman becomes the leader, and whenever women are the leader in a relationship, it fails, because women aren't designed to lead.
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 3d ago
Hey man, thanks for the comment which was helpful. We met online on a Christian dating site. I did vet her with a detailed list that I had, but we did move pretty fast. But I did vet her. Something happened and I moved continents for her to see if it would work out or not, and that's when things started to get real and ugly, as she forced me to deal with her controlling father and her behavior around him. I went through with it because I believed it was worth the sacrifice and I guess I felt like a hero. I seriously don't regret it but it's been 3.5 years together, and 2 since the wedding, so it's time for things to progress.
The inch-mile thing is hard truth. Why doesn't she do that for me? Lol.
Well she seemed to be really good when I vetted her. Anyway, currently she really wants to be submissive. She just doesn't know how and is fighting with her nature, I can see.
Yeah well I'm sure I'm the leader. Maybe a bad one but I am. I've tried not being the leader in this past; didn't work. I've been a terrible leader, and now I'm a better one, but perhaps not a good one yet. She looks to me for decisions and stuff. She has never been independent too.
It took 3 years due to me being very understanding and gracious about her upbringing and prison-like family situation. However it's been 2 years since she started living with me, so I'm deciding times up for making that a reason or excuse.
Yeah mentally children I can relate. Do they ever become adults?
Maybe that's the catalyst of our current problems: Me getting back the frame I had when I was vetting her, before all this drama happened.
You're right; it's my boat since I'm the leader.
Yeah I see a pattern but it was my poor choice of words. I do get worried about other things, but when hugging her I did it not out of worry but out of "in case of anything, we wouldn't have the terrible fight as our last memory but a hug as the last memory". It was intentional and not out of worry; sorry I didn't word it properly.
However, what you said about the battlefield thing is a really good illustration.
I do believe in feeling emotions as not to bottle them up. Like feel it, process it, and get it over with. But is not conducive if it happens every day or few times a week. So perhaps you're right that I can up my emotional discipline to make it more balanced and robust.
Well I got really mad when realizing about forgiving too easily (without proper discipline) but I didn't reveal it to her, so I did have some discipline there.
You're right about disciplining her. This is my first relationship so my experience is limited but I'll try to be more disciplining, other than just forgiving, so she wouldn't be a menace.
We love each other and she wants to submit; I want to lead. We both want it to work. We have sex few times a day to few times a week. We have chemistry. I think it's that we don't know how to make it work as we are our first relationships (not just mine).
Will improve myself. Feel free to reply more. Thanks.
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throwaway415 1 3d ago
Are you sure you had adequate time to make your judgement? Women can act completely differently during the "honeymoon" phase, and then suddenly show their true colors later on. I always take things very slow with women because they always end up showing me red flags later down the road (if not right away). I'm in my mid 30s, and I've never met a woman in my entire life who I had no doubts or concerns about marrying, hence why I've never married. You never want to move fast. Never rush. Always take your time. Get a feel for the water, and learn to tread it first before diving into the deep end with marriage. The water might seem calm and then the current comes out of nowhere and sweeps you away.
No. They remain this way forever. Some are just better at masking it. Women are emotional creatures by design, and this makes their mentality inherently childlike. This is why since the beginning of time, they have always depended on strong male leaders for survival.
I understand what you meant and I can relate to how you feel. It's natural for you to feel some form of attachment to a woman you fell in love with and married. it's just that this is coming from a place of emotional neediness and scarcity. You've described her as "special" but you have to understand that no woman is really that special. AWALT. Don't catch oneitis just because you really like this girl and married her. You have to acknowledge the cold hard truth that there are millions of other women out there who are just like her or even better. I'm not saying you shouldn't love her, but you need to be mindful of how much love you show. The person who loves the other the most is the one who holds the least power in the relationship.
Bottling up emotions is rarely healthy, but as a man we often end up having to do this because of the nature of the world we live in. What I suggest is finding some good male friends who you can share your thoughts and feelings with. If you can't find that, maybe you'll benefit from talking to a therapist (although I caution people against therapy since most therapists are just grifters who want your money and have no real interest in helping you deal with your issues, IMO.)
Sharing your deepest thoughts, feelings and insecurities with women is rarely a good idea. A lot of them these days will try to act like they're "safe" to do this with, claiming they won't judge you, etc, etc. It's a lie. They WILL judge you for it. It's not even necessarily a conscious effort on their part. Women subconsciously judge men for being emotional. It's just part of their nature, no matter how well they were raised and how good the values they were brought up with. You just can't trust them the way you can trust your fellow brothers (but choose your friends wisely.)
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 3d ago
Thanks again for the perspective and insights. Yeah I did vet her but I didn't vet her through the test of time; you're right. Oh well.
Emotional = childlike forever... Got it.
Don't worry, I don't have oneitis. She is special and different but I have mentioned many times that (especially if she leaves me) I have no problem marrying someone else; and if she doesn't want to be part of the harem, then too bad. (I just believe in marriage more than the others around here, due to me being religious)
Well, in that case I want to love the most and have the most power. I'll see if it's possible to reassure her while disciplining her at the same time. I think it's possible, and hopefully that the results will make the sacrifice worth it, is all I can say.
Yeah I'm iffy about therapy but I mentioned it because it's the most popular socially agreeable term. I actually meant any third party. I know that this forums says seeking women's help can be counterintuitive, but we got to such a rock bottom that we were not able to even have a civil conversation that even her mom would help. Of course, a male pastor might be a better option, who knows.
Yeah I'm really trying to find male friends right now. I have one but he's like 60, has been married 3 times, and is currently going for the fourth. So I am genuinely looking for more right now. I think because of the way I am, I tend to find it easier to be friends with women, personality-wise, intellectually, or conversationally. They can make great conversation but of course with romance, things tend to go to shit. That's why I don't like using the term romance as it has to do with Romantic idealogy from Rome. So I'm trying to find more male friends with a similar personality, whom I can click with.
Does emotional really mean weak? What if a man is strong and calm and does the right thing, with some tears?
throwaway415 1 3d ago
all human beings are emotional to an extent. just because we're men doesn't mean we can't and won't feel emotions - on the contrary, we will, and sometimes those emotions are very overpowering.
the key difference between men and women is our ability to set our emotions aside and act rationally. a man can suffer great emotional pain and yet still think clearly and act properly. a woman simply can't do this. a woman will always succumb to her emotions, but a man can control his emotions and how he reacts to them.
Lightmilktea Didn't Read Sidebar (confirmed) 3d ago
Okay, yeah that rings true. Understood.