Is marriage proposal literally the most beta thing possible? You’re genuflecting in front of her, giving her an expensive piece of metal and asking for the biggest amount of commitment possible in life. She has the power to decide if yes or no. Is it only me who thinks proposal should be the other way around - the woman asking you for your commitment?
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Rkingpin 5y ago
I was thinking about this the other day
Through a purely red pill lens yes you are correct.
However when you expand your view and consider things through historical contexts the proposal isn't as bad as you're making it seem.
In traditional patriarchal societies, hypergamy and general slutiness wasn't as rampant. And men in general would marry virgin women.
In that aspect it could be framed as a strong man inviting a submissive feminine woman to accompany him in his life journey for the rest of their lives.
I'd argue a successful marriage isn't impossible but the vetting process must be solid. I'm talking low n-count, strong father figure growing up, financial health, submissive etc etc
GGrub8 5y ago
This is why women who want to marry to lock a provider down will pretend there is something wrong with the guy if he's avoiding marriage. They want us to believe marriage 1.0 is still a reality.
CasaDeFranco 5y ago
Agreed, my last post was on this; found a lot of green flags but failed to vet hard enough.
Project_Zero_Betas 5y ago
I'd say raising a kid together is the biggest commitment you could make in life. Marriage is just a legal contract, can always divorce/annul and move on. But a kid? Means she's going to be with you until the day you die (or become a deadbeat dad).
Cazken 5y ago
Ya. It may be a very big commitment to the man, but to the woman most of the times it’s an opportunity.
Project_Zero_Betas 5y ago
For a kid
Cazken 5y ago
Huh?
Project_Zero_Betas 5y ago
Women only marry guys they want to have kids with.
civilizedfrog 5y ago
Women marry for the wedding experience.
Project_Zero_Betas 5y ago
Just so their brother can be the best man.
Project_Zero_Betas 5y ago
:-)
Cazken 5y ago
Or 50% of everything
Project_Zero_Betas 5y ago
Don't marry someone you wouldn't give a fuck about getting half. Problem solved.
wobbleelbbow 5y ago
Not exactly but yes.
Project_Zero_Betas 5y ago
No it's really that simple. Unless you worship money.
Ponder3277 5y ago
>You’re genuflecting in front of her
As a Catholic this made me chuckle.
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BlackFire68 5y ago
she'll take it out of your ass from that point on... no need to ask
LordMarkStark 5y ago
Unless like 6 weeks later you set her straight. Do you guys even think?
zxcvb7809 5y ago
Pledge fealty to your new keeper!
masterpiece00 5y ago
Whomever has the pussy has the power.
LordMarkStark 5y ago
But not complete power right? Why study red pill if it's ordained ahead of time
civilizedfrog 5y ago
The ones that make the girls go "awww" is absolutely blue. Like on the knees with a ring with diamond the size of the moon.
LordMarkStark 5y ago
Yeah the actual reason is it's too clliche unless it's like an expensive ring, all done before and the guy is rich, even then. Don't be surprised if you get blown off. But maybe such a guy picked the wrong woman in the first place or he messed up the timing. This aspect is the least of people's here worries though. None have a chance at marriage even if they wanted to, then shitty USA laws and various countries.
You don't need 1000 pages of red pill reading to realize that.
OP merely committed a logical fallacy.
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Ridabewa 5y ago
Genuflecting is a physical manifestation of putting her on a pedestal.
alpha-zach 5y ago
Not if done correctly.
When you move a woman into plate status you have to be more aware of comfort tests. Beyond plate status you have to introduce some level of “beta-ness.” A better way of saying this is actions that are generally beta moves, but done from a place of power.
Think about this. An 80 year old, well accomplished, wealthy man is being a awarded a major prize in his field. On stage, he accepts the award, makes a few mentions of appreciation or excitement about the future of the field, and then takes 30 seconds to “gush” about how he couldn’t have done it without his wife. “She’s amazing, beautiful, funny, hard working, etc”
Now take those same gushing, emotional words and put them in the mouth of a guy who recently met and started dating a girl. “She’s amazing, beautiful, funny, hard working, etc.”
Same words. But instinctively, we know one is beta, drying up the pussy, prob gonna lose the girl. The other is alpha and prob gonna have a heart attack when she fucks his brains out that night.
Why?
Clearly the wife of the accomplished man had nothing to do with his success(with the exception of supporting him, which can be done in various ways, but is indirect help.) Everyone in the crowd knows it. He’s the brilliant one, he worked hard, he attained the goals. But it’s kind, generous and humble to give credit to those you care about when you are in the lime light.
Being a kind man is attractive to women. Being nice is not.
Kind vs Nice
Kindness is genuinely giving something to someone. Nice is disingenuously giving something to someone.
Accomplished and successful people generally GAIN respect by speaking highly of those around them because this is perceived as kind. Amateurs generally LOSE respect by doing so because this is perceived as nice. The amateur may genuinely be giving, but because he lacks power, his words have very little value and it appears disingenuous.
A good analogy would be with charitable giving. Someone who donates silently gains respect from those who find out who the donor was. Someone who donates and tells everyone does not. This is because subconsciously we know the donation had an ulterior motive. Likewise someone who is wealthy and gives a small amount loses respect and someone poor that gives a large percentage is respected for their sacrifice. Again genuine vs insincere giving. Kind vs nice.
Back to the accomplished man, if he only made a passing mention of his wife, it would appear insincere, and he would lose respect. He is wealthy in respect and should either give an appropriate amount away to someone he cares about, or simply not mention her at all.
So back to your question, if you do the traditional proposal, you have to do it right, from a place of power. I’m a fan of surprising her, but you want to make sure she was begging you for it. Make sure she’s the one that regularly starts sentences with “when we get married,” and playfully suggest that that’s not in the cards. I’m also a fan of making sure she says “I love you” first. Vet her thoroughly, and make her work to earn her ring. Keep the carrot in front the horse to make her improve herself(workout, eat right, fuck whenever you want it) Bonus: this sets the frame for the marriage and how she must act to keep your attention and her ring. Etc. etc. and when she’s done the work, earned the ring, and proved herself, then you can give her 30 seconds of “gushing” praise on one knee.
She’ll know you aren’t submitting to her because you’re the boss. But she gets a her little moment of happiness in exchange for years of work for you. You set the tone of the marriage as I’m the boss, you work for me, but I’ll make sure you’re taken care of.
This kind, but dominant man is the dream every woman wants.
Kommanderdude 5y ago
I was thinking about this too. Getting down on one knee seems emasculating. I think the route I’d go is fuck the shit out of her then pull a ring out of the drawer and toss it on her and say “ Hey bitch, be my cum dumpster forever?”
LordMarkStark 5y ago
What. the. fuck? Dude - you're asking the chick to put up with your shit and your good points and/or their limits for the rest of her life - its not beta.
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Unless you mean a marriage rejection - I wish there was more discerning, and differentiating.
Nah, man, its not beta. Its a genuflection. (yes I had to look up that word when I thought to use it myself after reading). Following tradition/culture is not beta either. Sometimes it's lame, and paying too much respect to her in such a process would indeed be creepy (or from her point of view by that stage - out of place probably). But she's just as likely to see it as feeling special.
This is something for society, not individuals. If all her friends are getting huge genuflections, like his knee is going deep into the earth for her, she may expect it.
Thats not beta either - thats expectation.
And it depends who you make that proposal to. I'm more likely to think of it from that angle. If its some crack whore with a bad father figure, a litany of personal problems, and she's been banging everyone plus she's on every dating site ever made when you found her and she likes you because you support her kids and stop her from suicide - THATS beta. Because you didn't find the best partner and its for all the wrong reasons.
But not the process mate. You could also make the case asking such a girl gives you iron balls. 100% red pill is not needed, just common sense.
We all look around the world to get reinforcement from society, tradition, etc about how to act and what to believe. You may have seen from those around you or on tv things that shape your views, beliefs and life.
But the process is not beta, unfortunately the world is just wack. Its between you and her. But I will contend that roles are slightly switching, so the things I saw growing up for example may not be appropriate in 50 years - but the next 20, no.
Sometimes girls ask guys to marry them. It would be rare though to explicitly do that, but a girl will try to make it known when she is ready, in various ways or simply hide it out of insecurity/because she understands a guy should ask mostly of his own accord so she knows the dynamic of submission/his will to commit and treat her in a certain way is preserved; protection obviously increases in a marriage, there's that too, so he needs to be willing. So a guy is not fully acting of his own accord in any case. A blatant and obvious example of that is if a guy got her pregnant and she said you better marry me you bastard/ don't want the kid to be a bastard, etc, do the right thing. Those types of things can backfire on chicks and there's a very good reason the traditions were like they were. Its a survival/best chance thing.
Its not beta. It takes a lot of balls to take on a woman, because as you can see from things in life, they often reject would-be husbands, guys before they can be the husband and even cheat. It is what it is. What you might be saying is a false dichotomy; and without reference points which I am trying to provide, its easy to fall into a black and white thinking/false dichotomy mode of thinking about it.
Do I advocate marriage? It takes a brave or naive person to marry these days, but I am not against it. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. There is no notch on your belt in life or badge for marrying or avoiding it, do what you want to be happy.
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The trouble is guys on here think before they act too much. In girls you don't need to think too much. Just do, usually until certain points. If she is bad cut her off, if she is good open up to her. I say ignorance is bliss - think of it like that. It doesn't matter if its alpha or beta, just so you are experiencing life. You cross those bridges/dilemmas when you come to it.
The thing to do these days is really a long engagement and to not marry young if possible. I think thats where society is at in my view on marriage in terms of general policy today. Once you're in one the dynamic shifts - you're no longer going anywhere and being avoidant and all that other shit that got the red pillers ahead morphs a bit. If you don't go to sleep beside her each night she'll be pissed off, etc. Its about two people then, never mind what you want, its what she wants. But if you can't look at her with love then its your problem, not hers, though idirectly. And vice versa.
I dont think ATRP is an ideology. Its not even a complete scientific theory or validated in full. There's no need to make pieces fit. Its on a whole other layer. Its definitely got truth in it, but to suggest its a law composing of many facts/theories like gravity or quantum physics is a bit of a stretch. Therefore it would be unwise to allow TRP to stomp out your own personal beliefs completely, or run an agenda based exclusively on it.
Example. A girl says you should feel lucky to have her. Is that making you beta. Or is it her way of helping you to treat her alpha and stay on point for her. Basically a good marriage should be a good team effort. Sorry trying to wrap it up. That's what genuflecting is meant to represent, not be. In that case, nah it's probably not necessary these days except via an expectation. It's probably no big deal. Think back to times and its probably the timing of it. If a guy does it at a hockey game like in the meme/video there once was, thats probably bad timing. And she says no. Its too complicated to think about wholistically, but its why many guys fret over the timing. Its only sensible to do so. Thats something you might have to one day think about but probably not now.
empatheticapathetic 5y ago
This entire comment is feminine hyperbole garbage that never takes a hard stance on anything. Gtfo
LordMarkStark 5y ago
It would stand to reason you would think that. But you can be open and honest with girls in your life and have hand. You'd need open communication and a decent chick but there's plenty of times. And a strong sense of self and core so toxic boundaries are never reached.
No need to limit some guy on here. And your name is empathetic apathetic. I think we both know you're hurt and have strong maybe polar opposite views but a different version of you could see that there was a fair bit of moderate reason in what I wrote. And you assume my comments apply to every eventuality.
empatheticapathetic 5y ago
You literally state the uselessness of this ‘circumstantial advice’ in this reply. Your advice is not ‘redpill’ as it defies redpill concepts. It does not have any useful application to the people asking these questions and makes zero actual points fluffed up in flowery language. It’s the epitome of bluepill. It’s a good shit test for newbies to check if they’ve really learned anything yet.
LordMarkStark 5y ago
Well op drew what he thought was a logical conclusion. You may not read my big comment. But your red pill is not guidance here, others maybe. He asked if women should ask men. This is what you want to directly understand? Sorry. Thought it was too simple. Ok.
Actually you might want to make sure you read my other comment. There's no way.
We might ask why you cling to red pill if you are so apathetic, is this not just the epitome of blue pill to blindly follow every extension.
But here we are, so you dug a new answer, you receive.
You are the newbie. You've never been married, never had kids.
You know what feminism is don't you? It's TAKING the power out of your hands to ask a woman to marry you in the first place. So now you have to wait for her. And she can revoke it at any time on top of that. Bad deal for both sexes. Most girls can't even ask you out let alone to marry you anyway.
If you wonder why I slightly pandered to the feminine it's because they deserve that much between fukin idiots being shit-stains and selfish. We operate in a society. Does she not deserve that much? Don't have to chop your balls off to do that, mate.
The paradox of extremism. Read my post carefully next time, I'm hardly a feminist. When I said genuflecting I was inferring to ACTION. It's then up to her. If she hates genuflecting, well fuck me! Then isn't that man the big stupid in all this.
But genuflecting is NOT. Good question, OP but the concise answer is that's absurd, no, never, and feminists would probably not even accept it either. It's just a ritual kind of thing, or symbolism, you kind of ask each other.
I'm positive you dumb cunts don't even go on the most basic of dates in your life. :) Back in the day it was said a woman liked 'the whole package' in a man. Then guys came along who said after every blind person followed each other in the dark "no they only like game, and no they only like looks and then its SMV!" And now here you are saying "only the red pill is the true word". Hey...If you can't appreciate all of the above, how nuanced and expansive those things are then your life is truly fucked. You will forever be going round in circles wondering what was that one piece of information you missed. Don't be lost when someone holds up a light in the dark and you think its the one true light. Live IN the world.
LordMarkStark 5y ago
Since when does the red pill ignore the world? If you want to lock yourself away so be it. You're not the only person alive. You're dealing with women, start at least appreciating what they're like.
He asked if it's beta. It's not outright. I've had several girls want to marry me and have my kids. Will you kindly get bent? Never have I gone down on one knee, nor would I advise it, but nor would I say do X and only X.
You were probably reading looking for that sweet RP essence. Sorry the world's bigger than than that.
You may want to feel good. Here you go "nah only a fag would do that, " and "don't trust the bitch!!"
Not all women get married for integrity-good reasons. What if a billionaire got down on his knees and did that and she cummed in her pants.
You want good replies, start asking good questions. I don't know what you're seeking. We've had some real bad discourse here.
I actually have not heard or seen some guy go down on his knees. It's anachronistic. But that doesn't mean it's "beta".
There's some real fuckin idiots in this world. What's alpha? Asking her while you have her bent over fucking her from behind? Take the point. Extremism is not cool either.
There's 7 billion people and 250k decent level trp'ers.
That's 1 red pill dude for every approx 50k people. So one for every 25k girls
Great odds. Guy can do what he likes. No one is scared of red pillers or apprentices. extremism is not needed. And you should not concern yourself with whether it is or not too much.
The question as per doing that to a girl is as statistically insignificant as red pilling is. There's no effect on the environment. It's a shared perception with the girl. Go ask her. Ops question was inclusive of the understanding of that. There's nothing feminist about genuflecting, it just looks dumb to me. But then I assume I'd be in love if I did that.
So are honeymoons beta? Weddings? Where do you want it to end. Soon having kids will be beta.
Aww!! Ahh! I got it! Even talking to girls is beta! These bitches should just fuck you on sight.
No offence op, decent question.
wobbleelbbow 5y ago
You are blue.
LordMarkStark 5y ago
Oh right! So if you say it then it's true? Said like a true cultist. You need to delude yourself to get by. I know where the line is. I don't need you to define my existence.
Bet you start chanting at some point.
wobbleelbbow 5y ago
What a fricking blue pill example
LordMarkStark 5y ago
Yeah, what's the alternative? Have girls ask you for marriage? It's a lot of words but the message is clear. How emasculating would that be?
No. Wait. You're already emasculated. Did you take your red pill this morning?
wobbleelbbow 5y ago
No.. Alternative is not bending your knees. There are plenty of alternatives just that your bp mind doesn't see it
LordMarkStark 5y ago
We can tell you're just cracking with the ladies... and if I am bp, which I am not, then we have a lot of people asking me for advice on here. Can't give a girl a little lovin? What? Just in case she turns you down. Weak, bro. At some point you have to slip the chick a ring. I would never say go down on one knee - I would love it if you pointed to the spot I did. And if you were not an incel I would be glad too.
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Think - how are you going to slip her a ring if she has to ask you like in O.P's example - and is she now responsible for the ring?
There's many traditions, and we are only talking about the west, really. Girls in the past have taken me while out shopping for their engagement ring to give me an idea of what they might like; and no, we didn't make a day of it. I am not saying its not possible - but a society-wide change is simply not on the cards any time soon. In China for example they do NOT wear wedding rings traditionally. Girls have also expressed disappointment when I gave them a ring but it was NOT an engagement ring. Don't worry, they were adults, unlike you they did not break down in tears over it all. Chicks who were giddy with excitement over me (as girls could be any guy have brought up conversations about engagement rings to friends/associates when I was younger and were they were silly) Its not a topic that should just be thrown to the side as "blue pill".
You dickheads don't think. OP, fine, he was trying to grasp a thought - you just like sticking it to people. You're still a DH
So there's only two options? I think you will find we're limited by language. There's many options, however this entire conversation has been limiting of itself and probably restricted to your hard-line, cynical, somewhat scared mentality. You will just have to understand the red pill is anything but wide in its scope about the world. It does not answer all things.
You think I am some blue pill guy. Ok. Guess you don't know what I'm about. Arguing from ignorance. Well, if its made you feel better; or its allowed you to feel competent for once in your life, you can have that, matey. Lets see how all this theory gets you by in the rest of your dating life if you're not packing other qualities - which of course theory means nothing if you don't, can't or only pretend you will do it. Then the theory has to be right and applied correctly.
Good luck, genius. Pretty vague alternatives you gave. At some point you have to slip the chick the ring. Going down on one knee is not required. No. But it doesn't make you BP. But THAT makes you a fool if you think it automatically does - when one separates the action with the ideology/aspect.
Correlation is not causation.
--- Its pretty clear man, you can't escape this high a degree of level of critical thinking going on here.
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Beside the point. I already said what I wanted to say about the OP's question. Some people's grasp of women and theory on here (in fact forget 90% of the theory and maybe 3 graphs) is so limited its not even worth discussing things. Just take it as a given you don't have to be OCD about being alpha, bitches/chicks/hoes, whatever you like to say, don't just up and leave over stupid shit.
wobbleelbbow 5y ago
oh hilarious, pretty obvious you are on this sub just to troll with your bp delusions.
LordMarkStark 5y ago
It's not my intent to argue with you or anyone and I apologise for that, but fair shake of the stick, so they say. I believe of course the red pill to a fairly large degree. But at the same time you have to appreciate there's many laws in the universe. We don't walk around choosing to believe in only gravity and light but not conservation of energy and momentum as an example.
The red pill is useful but I don't think those who put it together intended it to be used like some do. Nor can it explain everything. It's only so useful.
It's not some caustic acid that's meant to strip away most of life because you're afraid of losing a girl at some distant point in the future. I'm of the competency or life experience to not have to fret over these things. I handle it as it comes.
Please take that into account. The question is a non issue, it's ok to indulge someone for a question they have without judgement.
The discussion was very esoteric. Please go about your day as if nothing's wrong, it doesn't matter.