For those of you who are more literary, here is a fantastic example of poetry that spouts ideals worthy of TRP's philosophy of stoicism and being the best man you can be. It's called "If," by Rudyard Kipling.
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
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icecow 10y ago
The words that came to mind after reading these two are, "You are what you buy into."
serious_bs 10y ago
The Man In The Glass Peter Dale Wimbrow Sr.
When you get what you want in your struggle for self
And the world makes you king for a day
Just go to the mirror and look at yourself
And see what that man has to say.
For it isn’t your father, or mother, or wife
Whose judgment upon you must pass
The fellow whose verdict counts most in your life
Is the one staring back from the glass.
He’s the fellow to please – never mind all the rest
For he’s with you, clear to the end
And you’ve passed your most difficult, dangerous test
If the man in the glass is your friend.
You may fool the whole world down the pathway of years
And get pats on the back as you pass
But your final reward will be heartache and tears
If you’ve cheated the man in the glass.
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c-lionbyte 10y ago
If we are sharing literary stuff:
"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self." Hemingway
rayyaal 10y ago
This is the hardest part of trying to live philosophically through stoicism. I've just started reading Meditations and this tendency for "allowance for their doubting too" is the hardest thing to internalize.
Rebikhan 10y ago
Reminds me of the old quote, "it is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Great poem choice OP- Rudyard has become my favorite poet as I go through my 20's. The Gods of the Copybook Headings is another fantastic choice of his about the natural consequences of improper actions by man and our continuous, never-ending endeavor to avoid those consequences as long as possible.
TheRedRand 10y ago
I loved Meditations. Thanks for bringing it up - reminds me to read it again.
wutangzus2002 10y ago
The way I deal with that is by viewing those who doubt like little kids. I listen and mentally pay them on the head, allowing them to run along. By viewing it as the rabble of those who don't know, I am able to stay the course as well as maintain discipline regardless of what my internal monologue might sound like.
pingpongsam 10y ago
I thinkyou misunderstand. This means to not summarily dismiss but to pay consideration and temper the notion that you have it all figured out all the time. Basically the opposite of what you said.
TheRedRand 10y ago
Agreed. It means removing your ego, good or bad. Your job is to complete a mission, and that being said, you're humble enough to realize that others may doubt you for legitimate reasons. This poem is talking about analyzing those doubts and weighing dispassionately (objectively, without emotion) whether or not they're true. If you're doing something wrong, easy fix. Correct it. If not, keep truckin'. Your ego is totally out of the equation.
[deleted] 10y ago
Fuck Stoicism. I value my free will and I don't care what my "nature" is, whether man, human, social animal. I choose what I am. Stoicism would rather define you by what are you instead of what you choose to be. It implores people into living naturally, proposing a false dichotomy between natural and un-natural and coddles them as children in a world where choice is a responsibility.
marplaneit 10y ago
Uhu, you didn't understand much I guess. Believe what you want, you can't change reality. That's why all fat woman who think they are beautifull, they are still fat.
silentlyfurious 10y ago
There are limits to what you are capable of becoming. You can't choose to be a dog and become one thereafter. Practising Stoicism is about recognising what you are, as you are. By "choosing" to be something you are not you are simply "choosing" to believe in the delusion for as long as it suits you. In Buddhism this is called Ego. The false self. You can believe what you want to believe. All your believing in the world won't change reality. This has been said here before, of fat-acceptance, women's hamster, male hamster, etc.
I believe that you are just practising your male hamster wheel in this post. I would rethink it if I were you son.
[deleted] 10y ago
You're misunderstanding me "son". I'm not claiming you can be something you're not. I'm claiming that "living according to nature" (the central tenet of Stoicism) is a false precept and doesn't make sense.
There are no natural and unnatural states. The universe is cold and empty and evolution is blind and random. The distinction between 'natural' and 'unnatural' doesn't exist. What matters is benefits and/or consequences.
Nature, i.e. the universe, is indifferent to you, and that's how it should be. YOU must take responsibility for who you are and what you choose to be. Hiding behind "your nature" as a human, as a man, as whatever, is a cowardly way to confront the world.
Keep spouting TRP buzzwords all you want. Because of that indifference you're the one rationalizing how you want to be...the person you want to be...by dictating it to the universe and not the other way around. You've made it the first step - coming up with your own moral code. But you get hung up on the second step - owning it. Try stepping out of Marcus Aurelius's butthole.
silentlyfurious 10y ago
I understand what you mean.
Thanks for the lesson.
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upvoteguy2 10y ago
this is what was on my okc dating profile had, thats it besides pics and ladies loved it.
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victor_knight 10y ago
Excellent. I think I could even feel my blood pressure drop.
MrbdS 10y ago
"If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you...."
I find this contradictory towards the stoic notion in a way.
If one is supposed to endure without i.e. excess emotion then the whole basis of the statement quoted has no meaning.
You are essentially not supposed to care. You are on the other hand supposed to undoubtfully trust yourself in hardest of times.
For me repressing your reaction to certain events, feelings etc. is far from trusting and not doubting yourself. The stoic concept imo is based on selfdoubt.
have a nice day M
FffffatAlbert 10y ago
Read the posting rules:
"No examples from fiction or lyrics."
[deleted] 10y ago
This is neither a fictional work, nor song lyrics. It's a classic, educational poem.
cubicpolynomial3 10y ago
And it's not even an example.
FffffatAlbert 10y ago
Then your argument is that the work is non-fiction; i.e. factual.
Rock on, dream weaver.
[deleted] 10y ago
It's a poem, neither a story nor a narrative of any kind. There's no fictional involved, this is advice in verse, so... yes, it's "non-fiction" (though only narrative poems about people and events are thought of in those terms, typically).
The prohibition against examples from fiction or song lyrics is to prevent fictional alphas from being used as a template, since an author is not bound by reality to shape the characters actions or the consequences thereof. Hence, fictional characters make poor, often unrealistic examples to aspire to. Your problem is that you're illiterate and unsophisticated, and therefore unable to comprehend the meaning and intent of the rule, or recognize that which does not fall under it.