I think it's much more related to habit: the habit to be rejected and unattractive. Like animals who lived their whole lives in cages, they will hesitate leaving it even when the door is open...

Genes have a self-regulatory effect in human behaviour: men with bad looks (which means effeminate/weak/child-face ones) have behaviours that accord with their looks (weak, sentimental, clingy, loathed by women, ostracised by society). This is not JUST because of genes, but also from social expectation of them being expected to "play" their genes.

As someone who was a late bloomer (I didn't have sex until I was 25) I can attest to the fact that even after you lose your virginity there is a feeling that still eats away at you. A feeling that you "missed out". That there are several years you know you should have been fucking girls and getting validation from friends for it, but you weren't. I count no less than 9 girls I could have fucked while I was in high school and college, and to look back on those years and realize what an incel I was is hard.

But the solution isn't to seek superficial validation that means little in your late 20's. The answer is to go out there and enjoy the now. Those years of incelness are part of who I am. I have stoically internalized them, and used it as motivation to build me into the person I am today and the person I am still becoming. It isn't who I am anymore, but I can't pretend like that never happened. Like anyone who must come to terms with the fact that some unfortunate circumstance befell them in their youth.

You keep saying, "must." I disagree, there are always plenty of solutions to these types of "problems."

That is to realize; this is not a problem at all.

You're talking; ego this, ego that. That a man must prove himself to society. Why don't we all just get on the feminism train and prove ourselves to women while we're at it? How about going to the gym for them, and improving for them? And all so the tiny, now insignificant life I lead, can be filled with empty, validation seeking bulshit that means absolutely shit to me at the end of the day. Any takers? Didn't think so.

I say, forget that. Realize your ego is getting the best of you and that even when you do rake in your "prize winnings and trophy," you'll still be an unhappy fuck.

It isn't the things we have or the status that we hold, or hope to hold one day, that makes us happy... but, it is the way we view these things that can certainly make us unhappy.

I've been excited and happy as fuck with absolutely nothing. Why? Because I've come to realize it isn't these things that bring us happiness. Charlie Sheen and tons of other celebrity or celebrity like people are seen sitting directly on top of the social hierarchy of life. Do most of these people use drugs? If they were truly satisfied and happy, do you think they'd really need to?

They're not, and never will be. They're chasing something that isn't tangible and in that form, doesn't exist.

Happiness; it's all a mindset. It has nothing to do with who or what surrounds you. Actually, the mindset of happiness or whatever you'd like to call it, that you carry, will usually bring you by-products. All of the things you just mentioned; friends, validation, being looked up to, they are all by-products of this mindset. You search, you will not find.

Go ahead, grab two knifes, one in each hand, have a knife fight against yourself. You will see that the left cannot beat the right, it knows what it does. You will come to a stalemate each and every time. This is your ego vs. yourself.

Make yourself happy, and do so by noticing and accepting your ego is existent and trying to assume a role as primary dictator of your emotions. You'll soon see, this is not the determining factor in what allows you to be happy. That no matter what you have or who surrounds you, you will only be happy when you figure yourself out and separate your ego from what it is internally masking... your true self. The one that doesn't need an ego boost daily, just to feel good.

Late bloomer here... this is a very accurate and perceptive post.

There is one great advantage to being bottom of the social hierarchy at school ... life keeps getting better as you put it behind you, rather than always feeling like your glory days are behind you.

I have a different solution for late bloomers:

Think of yourself as the fortunate ones!

You have great opportunities, great abilities and honestly, you can control so much of your life (as opposed to someone living in say, Sudan). Just do it. Do whatever the fuck you can and want to and just live.

It's OK to not have everything!!! We are the fortunate ones!!

Yeah its a very true phenomenon. IMO this is where the path breaks between alpha and sigmas.

Its easy to say to meditation and let go of your ego. But imo we are biologically programmed to feel good and our brain releases good chemicals when our smv in a certain group is high. If your smv is low you feel depressed. Meditation will make you feel at peace but never the confidence boost high smv gives. High smv in a school enviroment is what builds alpha males because of all the positive reinforcement they received.

Its like saying dont give a fuck, its much easier acting in a dgaf way when your smv in a group is high and you know the people will react well even if what you say is completely dumb.

Today i have a lot of success with women more than alpha males that i know. On the other hand i have such a hard time having sucess being top of hierarchies whether its at work or the trade school i was at. Its like i know how to act in a way that makes me top but i feel drained after a while.

I agree with most of what you said regarding the problem, but I'm not sure I agree with the solution. External validation, imho, is not the solution, but another symptom of the problem. Pursuit of it can only end in frustration and incompleteness.

The depression and overcompensation you speak of are manifestations of pain and suffering, which (usually) took place years ago, early in life . As long as it remains forgotten, denied, repressed, dormant, it will continue manifest as insecurity, even if you are pullin pussy.

Having recently gone through this kind of thing, I can say this much in terms of what (I think) are some good steps to take:

1. You must bring all that crap to the surface. Remember it, accept it, allow yourself to re-experience that pain in full consciousness. It has to wash through you completely. Until it does, it will always be there, covertly and subtly manifesting insecurity, anger, fear, and sabotaging your motivations/desires. You may need to be violent, you may need to cry, you may even need to lie around feeling nihilistic for a period of time. Whatever the emotion, express it physically in such a way that doesn't cause harm. This is generally an inward (private) experience, not something in which to be involving other people, at least not often.

2. Forgive yourself, love yourself. Bringing all this stuff to the surface, it's easy to get down on yourself. You might experience guilt/shame. Don't fight it. But don't create a mental construct of continuous self-loathing either. Try to remember that most of the insecurity, anger, fear, and harm we've done in the past, are manifestations of ego and abuse forced on us early in life, when we couldn't defend ourselves. Forgive yourself, love yourself.

3. Social Freedom. Freedom from the psychological need for social validation. Where you don't require being at the top of a social hierarchy to be content and confident. Freedom that allows you to express the full range of your personality. Guys like Chris from GoodLookingLoser, or Sasha Daygame have developed some good programs to help guys develop their social freedom. Anyone have some other recommendations? I think RSD has some material on this too. I tend to think this is even more important than the alpha/beta concept we get so much of. If guys here worked as hard on social freedom as they did on 'being alpha', they'd probably get that alpha as a natural consequence.

So that's my take on what to do for late bloomers who are getting laid, but need to resolve lingering insecurities.

Also, as an aside, medicinal entheogens can often help this process along. Things like mushrooms, Ayahuasca, and Ibogaine can be quite enlightening if taken responsibly and with the intention of personal exploration and growth (as opposed to partying). For some people it's like a year of therapy in one sitting. It won't fix your problems, but it can help you escape ingrained mental cycles, and realize new patterns of thought.

You know what will fuck with your head more? Try this, you are blossoming right on schedule. Open up any medical textbook and it says that for your age, you are almost exactly where you should be.

Now factor in this, you are literally more than a year younger than almost all of your classmates, the people you ultimately measure yourself against at school.

I know because it was me. I entered high school at 13 years old. Almost all of my class mates were 15 by January. Add to it that I played football and some of those guys were almost two years older than me, and I had a big problem. Two years at that age in adolescent boys makes a huge difference in available muscle mass. One year of maturation makes a huge difference in cognitive and emotional response. On the football field, I would get knocked around hard, but other players respected me because I always got back up and tried again.

From a social standpoint, I had always been something of an outcast from the others due to being a little bit behind them and some pressures regarding my home life. A little gets to be a lot over time, and my parents tell me that they realize that starting me in kindergarten that year was a mistake. A year would have made a lot of difference, and the fact is that when I developed a social circle, they were one or two years behind me in school.

The other part is this, the "late-bloomers" are more often than not the ones with above average IQs whether or not they were ever tested for it. Combine a high IQ with a general difficulty finding a relationship and some bad experiences where the person knows something is wrong, but not what is wrong and it makes further relationships or hook ups into scary things.

Anyone late bloomers thought about running a cycle or two of testosterone to "catch up" and help with confidence, muscle and increased facial mascinization?

The amount of guys I've known who were virgins at ages like 22 or 25? Well, they might not be the majority but they do exist

Wrong, they are becoming a majority. I was part of that silent majority of late bloomer virgins. Most guys lie about it out of shame. None will ever admit to being a virgin unless alone with very close friends even then they often lie about it. One can tell with enough interrogation but that almost never happens in most social circumstances. Lots of guys are sexually frustrated. I don't bring up TRP to anyone but I do mention MGTOW occasionally.

Post-TRP I'm still pissed at my virgin teen years. The years my libido was maxed beyond what it is now, and I am a high-T male naturally in my blood serum tests, I needed that ass the most then. I didn't get it because of how fucked up women act and how fucked up society is for allowing them a free pass to act like it. I treated them how they said they wanted to be treated. That is tantamount to them lying. Those years are gone, what I needed the most I did not get when I needed it the most. Not right, not fair, caused some psyche issues like depression but then again some kid in Kenya got eaten by flies today so life isn't fair.

I'm one of those guys that are permanently going in and out of anger phase post-TRP and there is nothing wrong with that, it just means you are still sane. I am bored of women at this point, don't need them, had my fill of boring starfish sex and some decent sex. To sum up my experience in short, 99% of women are light beers that think they are fine wine. If it's free drink it and don't care what it is. But I'm not going to pay the advertised price (LTR, marriage) because what they are selling is not what you get.

I think you just established why every Marine who leaves the Marine Corps, present company included, feels a significant sense of loss and lack of purpose after getting out. We all hated it, but we were a part of something huge, a world famous killing team that steamrolls the opposition every time they come out to fight. It's the biggest gang on earth. I've been out for three years and it is still the single biggest part of my identity. I was also a late bloomer. My dad used to tell me "I had a thing for underdogs" (meaning my friends). My dad was a football player and married my mom, who was hot back then, after choosing her out of the half dozen girls he rotated in high school. I didn't realize it then but that was his way of subtly telling me my friends were losers and that I could do better. I didn't hear him and I missed out on a lot of opportunities to grow socially. Few of my friends from high school, though intelligent, finished. None of them finished college. Once I separated from them by dropping out of high school and getting the fuck away from the church I found that women took to me pretty easily but I had that giant God Finger waving at me every time I went to close the deal. It took 2 years and a tanker of liquor to push through that to finally get laid at 19. After that it's been fairly easy to get laid but I found myself in relationship after relationship until around 2 years ago when I found TRP and figured out why the fuck I was so miserable. I still definitely have that "I missed out" sense regarding high school and college though. It almost feels like I had an abridged upbringing. I'm glad I served but relating to others my age is damn near impossible at this point. That's why I abandoned the idea of being an Alpha and adopted the Sigma style instead about a year ago. It's not as exciting or rewarding in the short term but I find the people, particularly women, I attract this way don't make me want to beat my head against the wall talking to them and generally have interests and ideas that either align with my own or are worth discussing. You are 1,000% on target though; the issue is not lack of sex it's lack of social validation that must be overcome.

I think that what you are getting at here may be true for many people, but I don't think it's as universal as you are implying. Of course, I appreciate the idea of generalization in moderation, but there are some strange assumptions here, and I can use myself as a (biased) example - seeing as how I lost my virginity when I was 26 or 27 (I don't exactly remember...).

First, being a "late bloomer" doesn't necessarily mean a person is low in their social hierarchy. As a teen and in my early twenties, I was sociable, well-liked, and popular. I played in a popular local band that had a lot of exposure (but wasn't financially successful), and I was an active, visible member of a very large church. The last bit was why I was a virgin so late, and isn't so uncommon. The fact was, I was attractive and had no trouble attracting women, but I chose not to sleep with them. I could have been slaying pussy, but I chose not to.

It could, potentially, be argued that I didn't count as a late bloomer, but it did certainly creep into my head as a point of uncertainty about my sexual capabilities at one point, making me worry that I would be too inexperienced to satisfy a women my age with "normal" experience. That was quickly dispelled the first time I had sex and it wasn't a big deal.

If a person derives his confidence and self-comfort with their n-count or assured ability to perform in bed, I could see how being a late bloomer could have a deep impact on their confidence, but that isn't really true for all people, especially when we are talking about the super religious.

I was able to quickly convert my self-doubt over sex to IDGAF, and in many ways I think the fact that I had sex for the first time so late actually contributed to that substantially. It gave me perspective I wouldn't have always had.

This doesn't seem right as a general rule, though i am sure its true in your specific case.

A lot of men have issues with the redpill because they are low on "primativeness" - that is they don't know about TRP because they don't perceive a social hierarchy at all to begin with. They have no or low hierarchical instinct.

They aren't hurt at being at the bottom of the pile because they can't even see a pile to be at the bottom of. Its actually a blessing, if you can learn the TRP tenets because you can be like RSD tyler - using your superpower of social obliviousness to status jump.

It's funny you mention this. I've noticed that the past couple years I've had a pretty low libido, but I've also become much more focused on my music. Long story short, I'm working very hard to become one of the best at what I do. Earning the respect of my idols means fuck tons more than getting pussy. As far as I'm concerned, pussy can wait until I've reached my goals. I thought I had some real problem about my libido. Turns out (aside from my porn habits) I was just more focused on becoming a professional in my passion than checking out that ass that just walked by. I'm usually thinking about how to fix the problems I notice and such.

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That was spot on, add being a member of a religious cult and shit it the fan pretty fast and smeared it all over the wall.