Foreword
I've decided that instead of making an entirely new “dating site” guide, I’ll make a new series based off of the original article instead.
Thank you all for your continued support.
“The Red Piller’s Guide to Online Dating": Over-Investment
“In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.” – u/Rollo-Tomassi & u/Illimitableman
From this quote we can determine that a portrayal of over-investment, a common mistake made amongst men who hunt on dating sites, stems from a Local Sexy Single Woman (“LSSW”) perceiving their approach as need-driven, desperate or highly-dependent on the results of said conversation, be it for sex, reaffirmation of SMV, etc.
LSSW: the result of an endless supply of betas and alphas alike that’ll give up validation to women by the barrel-full just for the slim chance she might open her Pearly Gates™. She will then rationalize all of this new-found attention as deserved and raise her self-perceived SMV to unrealistically-high levels.
Over-investment: when a person holds a comparibly higher dependence on the ends or means of any exchange between two individuals.
Because the man's intention is clear (sex) and he don’t yet exist to the girl in question (compartmentalization of online validation vs. in-person validation), she sees no reason to bring him within her perception as the risk (in that he may be an “Alpha façade”, a dangerous invididual, be catfishing, etc.) doesn’t justify a reward that’s all too accessible for her (sex).
Men are primarily seen as validation resources on dating sites and are initially addressed as such.
In short, in order for her to sleep with a guy she met online, she first has to perceive that he could care less whether or not they end up together and, in some cases, whether or not they'll even meet.
She has to feel that he feels he can do better than her. That she may be a burden on you in some way. And, most importantly, that he isn’t invested in her any more than he is in the other LSSWs online.
You’ll have to convey a lot with very little because the more you attempt to convey to her, the more you “care” about her understanding you and your SMV and the more over-invested you inadvertently seem. A catch-22 of sorts. For example (for clarification, this is a made-up example):
[12:15 PM] RP: Hey
[2:13 PM] Her: Hey
[2:15 PM] Her: Wyd
[2:20 PM] RP: Benchpressing the Eiffel tower with one hand and eating cornflakes with the other. You?
[3:15 PM] Her: lol watchn tv
[3:25 PM] RP: So what’re you looking for on here?
[4:15 PM] Her: friends maybe more
[4:25 PM] RP: Yeah, same here.
[6:15 PM] Her: cool
[6:20 PM] RP: You should come and get drinks with me. 9:30 at Bubba’s.
[7:30 PM] Her: K
[7:35 PM] RP: So what’s your number?
[8:00 PM] Her: 800-IMA-LSSW
[7:35 PM] RP: Okay great.
At first glance, some of you may think this is a successful endeavor simply because the number was received, A&A was used and the date was set up fairly quickly. But I’m here to tell you that the likelihood of her flaking after this conversation is high and detail out why that is.
A&A with LSSWs
Had he met this girl in person beforehand, this form of A&A may have worked. But without any determinant of SMV beyond his profile, bios and pictures, his A&A may be misconstrued as overly-gamy. Use it sparingly until you’ve met in-person.
Making her laugh/A&A done in-person or after meeting in-person improves her perception of the guy’s SMV.
Timing/Baking
Also look at her responses and the time gap between them. As soon as she asked what he was doing, he immediately jumped to respond. While it may seem minor, this also portrays a sense of over-investment because it conveys they at the moment of her text he dropped whatever he was doing at the moment in order to respond. If she texts him at various times during the day and always gets a quick response, she’ll likely presume that either:
a) He has nothing better to do and so he has either has no life or does very little (which is why “nothing” is never a good answer to this question).
b) He is so invested into their conversation (or into the “ends” of the conversation’s “means” i.e. sex) that it out-prioritizes everything else he has going on.
This is why baking is important. Since perception is all she has to go on regarding determining your SMV, the truth behind whether you’re actually preoccupied is irrelevant. Spacing out your responses subtly hints that you’re as busy as the man your bio, pictures, etc. convey would be expected to be.
Baking: the process of leaving messages or text messages unanswered for long periods of time to invoke intrigue.
Would a high-valued man doing multiple, interesting things have the time to respond to every dating site message with the span of 15 minutes? Are dating sites really that important to him?
Investment v. Investment
Remember: “In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.”
This means that even in a digital setting you dial your investment 2 notches behind hers. Back to the example:
[3:25 PM] RP: So what’re you looking for on here?
(“On here” is unnecessary. If she’d asked “what do you mean?” it could be clarified further but here it’s redundant and obvious. “So” is also unnecessary. It’s a conflict-adverse reflect word (“word fodder”) men’ll use to ‘soften’ the tone of their messages, similar to how some guys’ll add ‘lol’ or ‘ :-) ’ before/after messages to make them less blunt, brash, harsh, cold or succinct.)
[4:15 PM] Her: friends maybe more
(No punctuation, no grammar, no capitalization. Her response is clearly of lower-investment. She wins.)
[4:25 PM] RP: Yeah, same here.
(Punctuation and capital letters used in response. “Yeah” and “here” are unnecessary. And while both levels of invest may be low, hers is lower. She wins.)
[6:15 PM] Her: cool
(Again, but now it’s down to one word. Even-lower investment in response.)
[6:20 PM] RP: You should come and get drinks with me. 9:30 at Bubba’s.
(Long reply in response. “You should” is unnecessary. “With me” is unnecessary. “And” is unnecessary. “Come get drinks” would’ve worked better. Either way, she wins.)
[7:30 PM] Her: K
(…you get the picture.)
Lesson Learned
Having her number and setting up a date doesn’t guarantee success. She has to first perceive that he could care less whether or not they end up together and, in some cases, whether or not they even meet.
From the original “The Red Piller’s Guide to Online Dating”:
”The goal of this section will be to get her number as effortlessly as possible ALL WHILE MAINTAINING YOUR FRAME."
"I stress this because getting a number is meaningless if the LSSW’s perception of you is beta or a validation resource. Until you’re standing right in front of her, perception is all you have - false or otherwise."
"She MUST perceive you as alpha all the way through for this to succeed or else you’ll all fall on your ass.”
P.S.- I did not know that guys could be "super-liked" on Tinder.
TheRedChemist 10y ago
Another quality OmLaLa post. Thank you.
Only thing is, while your advice is solid, I think a lot of it only applies if your SMV is extremely high already (admittedly I think you did say something along those lines, credit where credit's due). I tried out your recommendations from your previous Online Dating post and my SMV is clearly low enough that it just comes across as incongruous (I'd estimate myself at a high 5 right now).
In fact I'd go so far as to suggest your current methods are at least 50% focused on simply NOT disqualifying yourself - i.e. "Don't fuck up" game. Chances are, if your SMV is high enough for this very blunt game to work, then you could be saying almost anything as long as it's not clingy beta stuff and see similar success, would be my guess. Now obviously the end goal is to join you up there in the upper echelons of SMV and therefore play on easy mode, but that's a long road and I'm not swearing off women until I'm top 10% or anything. I've been toying with my methods lately and seen a big increase in success considering my physical SMV hasn't changed - I'm considering writing up a thread of my recent findings on online dating game for guys still building their physical value. You have to blend in a lot more actual character while retaining the alpha aloofness, a subtle art I'm still getting to grips with.
[deleted] 10y ago
OmLaLa, are you sure she hasn't been reading the redpillers guide to online dating?
All joking aside, nice post. Overcommitment at texting was a mistake I used to make a lot.
thenemaxofredpill 10y ago
You can use OmLaLa's text game to the point but I'll be real here and say that he has the looks.
Here is the advice I give all the new comers. Quit depending on text and online game that only works for you if you have the looks. If you are in the top 10% in looks...then go for it. It is a buffet for women to get validation and top looks guys. Even though OmLaLa has great looks, I still can bet everything I own that he only pulls HB6-7 on there max. That is because it is so diluted with betas telling these 6's that they are hot that these 6's now think they are 9s.
Red Pill advice:
Get off the online bullshit and go and cold approach. You are not doing yourself any favours by sitting on the shitter and texting these hoes. Grow some balls and go talk to women.
thebadmanpuntdbaxter 10y ago
Great breakdown.
Another point, actually make your time valuable to the point where under-investment is natural. You might have to feign importance at first by just waiting to reply intentionally, we all start somewhere. She texted you? do a bodyweight circuit or read another chapter of something meaningful.
Do not stare at her reply for 15 minutes calculating every letter you'll answer with. Get into a habit of responding off the cuff. This will make your in person interactions come off as much more genuine and honest with your actual persona. they can smell a pseudo alpha from a mile away.
[deleted] 10y ago
The biggest problem I see men making is failure to understand supply and demand. Everyone easily grasps that it works for a large number of products (ie all men or all women) but few remember that it applies to single products too. If you're never around, then you're more valuable. There might only be one Donald Trump, but if he did his rallies in the same exact place every time then they'd be locally abundant and people would stop going.
Same goes for women. If you're constantly around then you lose a lot of value. If you respond to messages right away then you're constantly around. Letting messages sit for a while makes your attention more scarce and therefore more valuable. Even if she doesn't think you're doing anything interesting while baking, your attention is still more scarce and worth more. You can overdo it by being so hard to get the attention of that the cost of acquiring it is just too high, but SO many guys don't make themselves scarce at all. I think this one applies to a lot more than online dating.
donaldcicc 10y ago
When I was in California I pretty much stopped using dating sites as the numbers were just horrible. Now in Shanghai, China I have great success on OKcupid. There is parity, or relatively close to it, between male and female members. It self selects; the men are almost all foreigners whilst the ladies mostly Chinese. I know then that they want to date foreign men and speak some English.
The approach is a bit different here, a bit softer less flirty and sexual for most, but they also meet quickly.
I suggest all men try out the following experiment which I have both back in the states and here. Set up a female profile. Use photos of an attractive but not overly so woman and a relatively generic profile. Then read. I am amazed women last on the sites. So many one line emails, one word ones, and even monosyllabic ones.
It is a numbers game, but most of the men have no game, low SMV, and can be downright creepy.
thenemaxofredpill 10y ago
I live in Cali and it is pointless to use online game. These bitches out here already think they are 8s when they are 5s at best. Add a buffet of betas online doing and saying anything to get their attention and their idea of themselves is off the scale. You either look like Brad Pitt and do online game or you gotta approach in the streets and neg them. That is the only way. And even with all the cold approach, these entitled bitches still won't even drive a couple miles to come see you unless it is a full moon, the planets are aligned, a solar equinox, and the birds have flown south. Only then.
donaldcicc 10y ago
For me it is useful because my Chinese is almost zero, so day game is difficult, although not impossible. On okcupid I know they have some English skills. I would not bother at all with online dating in California when I return in a couple of years.
RedPillProphet 10y ago
So you suggest writing long openers? That's exactly the opposite of what the OP is suggesting and based on my experience he is right. The supply is just too high and women will thus automatically become super quality conscious. That's the only take away from opening a female profile. Still a valuable one though.
donaldcicc 10y ago
One line will not do it. A few lines, mention something you read in the profile. Just a hook.
If a lass looks at my profile after I look at hers and we re both online I will shoot her the "I see you looking at me looking at you ;) " and receive a response 9/10 times. For a blank profile with cute photos, "I see you went with the less is more concept and took it to the logical extreme" also wit a high response rate.
RedPillProphet 10y ago
That's a solid approach but I would call those pretty close to one liners.
donaldcicc 10y ago
Agreed but these are for if she is online and looking at my profile. If I see a profile I like I will write a few lines, say something that shows were share something in interest and that I actually took the time to read her profile.
kaiwanxiaode 10y ago
Coming from someone who has spent a decent amount of time in SH To be honest don't bother with online dating unless you want to be stuck in mediocrity. So many easy and willing girls around in bars and clubs and day game is a decent option.
donaldcicc 10y ago
I have had great luck on okcupid, but it might just be my profile and some good luck. And my winning personality. How long have you been here? Almost two and a half years for me.
kaiwanxiaode 10y ago
I live in Taipei. I have been to SH a few times around 3 months altogether, but not for awhile.
donaldcicc 10y ago
Cool. I lived down in Pingtung for a year before heading over to SH. If you are popping over again to SH pm me, we can grab a beer.
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[deleted] 10y ago
OmLaLa, this makes me wonder: what about the "seen at" confirmation messages?
At first sight, I feel like it's one of the most powerful tools one can use in online dating to give off high value status, she knows you've seen it but chose not to respond.
However, depending on your perceived SMV, could it also backfire? "He saw my message but didn't respond, what a jerk, he's trying to be busy. What a try hard"
thoughts?
OmLaLa 10y ago
I just finished an article that addesses this. Go check it out.
[deleted] 10y ago
This seems like an incredible waste of time for any guys not in a big city, I'm just not gonna bother with it besides tinder.
OmLaLa 10y ago
That's your choice, although I'd argue that while Tinder may be prevalent in your area, there are still attractive women on other sites. Even in the countryside (found a few on POF while in Montana) Tinder may also not be the prevailing site in other areas.
What's more, this post isn't exclusive to any one site.
Over-investment is over-investment, no matter the platform.
J_AsapGem 10y ago
i don't understand the downvote, this is awesome information.
babyface97 10y ago
Great post, it would have come handy a time ago when I was doing this behavior. I guess now that should stay behind in my past. Thanks again for opening my eyes. This is a community of wisdom and knowledge for all men in need.
[deleted] 10y ago
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OmLaLa 10y ago
You're right. That one may have been a tad over-analytical. I've changed it.
Benny757 10y ago
I've heard of this freakish response to something as casual (to me) as a period. Can you provide me with a little advice about what happens here? This very well might be a generational thing because I'm older and am so used to proper punctuation. Old habits and thought processes die hard! Thanks for any help to an old guy...
[deleted] 10y ago
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reigorius 10y ago
I'm confused. Did she make a fuss about you adding a . at the end of your sentence? Period = point = . ?
RedPharaohRising 10y ago
You're right. I've seen my ex do that. "Okay" is different from "Okay."
Former is neutral, latter is passive aggressive. You can use that against em. K
reigorius 10y ago
Wow, that's a new high, or low, of total insane female behavior.
I mimic what they're doing. Crappy sentences (wod ur doib) is met by crappy sentences, correctly written sentences are replied with same correctly written sentences.
My method is a bit more fluid.
OmLaLa 10y ago
Love to help. Flesh out your question a bit for me, Benny.
Benny757 10y ago
Thank you! OK, just what is the perception women have to punctuation? I guess I'm interested in why they would even care about a period. Is there always a strategic game going on in these early online encounters?
In context of online dating, in your experience, are they actually looking or reacting to this? (it is very likely, but I was so blue pill naive and am fighting it so hard, and just need to learn and get with reality.)
From my perspective, poor grammar/spelling is a turn-off, and proper punctuation, etc is really just auto-pilot.
Thanks for your interest and the help. TRP has actually brought me out of a short term but really scary depression caused by the almighty hypergamous dump.
[deleted] 10y ago
no joke. they emoji the shit out of their messages but I get dinged by double spacing after a sentence (it inserts a period)
1clownShoe 10y ago
This is my problem. when I'm texting and I finish a thought I usually double tap space and then decide not to write any more after the period has already been placed. And I just don't think to go back and correct it.
reigorius 10y ago
Wait, double spacing automatically generates a period to the end of a sentence? Which phone?
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OmLaLa 10y ago
It's not the period itself and it's not a conscious analysis they're making. It's simply a weight over who appears more invested in the outcome of the interaction. Take these responses:
What are you up to today, Candy?
What're you up to today?
What're you up to
Whatre you up to
whatre u up to
These are decreasing in investment in what the other person is actually up to. Why? Because as you go do the list, the message seems more and more hurried/rushed.
It implies you don't really care how this situation plays out because you have other situations playing out elsewhere. It's subtle but it's there.
Why you're not invested is irrelevant because she doesn't know you. So you imply disinterest or indifference.
Again, it's not so conscious. They aren't saying "Boy, that message was short! He must be a busy man!" Short messages convey indifference. It's a maintenance (not a boosting) of frame.
Poor grammar/spelling is a turn-off for you, as a man. But frame/investment/social value isn't an inherent prerequisite for men. It is for women. This is an act done for the attraction of women, not based upon what we as men find attractive.
Benny757 10y ago
Fantastic. Much appreciated. Now for me to go back to the top and read the entire thread. I'll get this default mind-set turned in the right direction yet. Patience and practice.
Happy new year to you, and all here.
OmLaLa 10y ago
Same to you, old timer. Wish you the best of luck out there.
AllOrDeath 10y ago
Isn't this level of analysis into how many letters you should type to a girl you just met indicative that you actually are extremely invested in the outcome? I'm not talking about the appearance you give to the girl, but your internal state. You are basing everything you do on how you think she will respond.
haxurmind 10y ago
Game requires some investment (body, personality, dress); which is why the general wisdom of TRP is to be the 'least invested' in an interaction.
Analysis does not need to be done purely from a mindset of investment in the results (getting the most dates/fucks possible) but can also come from an amused mindset (how degrading/overt can I make my text and still get a girl over to date/fuck, see some of the misc threads on a bodybuilder forum for inspiration).
Although bracketed, the key part of my post is "a girl", which refers to any girl worthwhile for sending a text/response on a dating/etc. site.
Such investment here does not fall into the trap of investing into a specific girl which runs counter to abundance mentality (so this text was too overt/degrading, maybe I'll try something a little tamer on the next one).
TL/DR: No.
AllOrDeath 10y ago
If the guideline is to be less invested than the woman you are still basing your actions/emotions on the woman. You are going at her pace and taking a step back. She is still the center of the universe.
I keep hearing about this amused mindset. Is that really the only way to interact with a woman? What if you don't find that kind of stuff funny? To be fair, I don't know the specific examples you are talking about, but if you link me or something I'll look at it with an open mind.
I don't understand the last part. Are you saying that thinking "so this text was too overt/degrading, maybe I'll try something a little tamer on the next one" is not abundance mentality or it is?
J_AsapGem 10y ago
This very reason is why i despise betas.. dude so many HB5 think they're HB10 now it's ridiculous
youcantdenythat 10y ago
Good post. I've been fairly successful with Tinder and agree 100% that over-investment always comes across as a negative.
A girl will match you based on your picture. The bio should be blank or very very basic. The more you write, the more overly-invested you look.
There should be 1-3 pictures. More pictures means more overly-invested.
There should be long pauses before replying to her. There should be one very long pause (24 hours or so).
I don't even ask for a phone number anymore. Why bother? It's just another opportunity to seem overly-invested. I go straight for the meet. I meet for a drink at a bar near my house and invite her over for more drinks if she is open to my kino.
Girls are on Tinder for two reasons. 1) They want a fwb/boyfriend/whatever or 2) They want a pen pal. If they won't meet me, I assume #2 and move on.
Now for the most important part. If the girl is there for a fwb/bf/whatever, the moment she matched you is the moment she decided that she will have sex with you. At that point she is ready and willing. Now it's up to you to not FUCK UP! All you have to do is not FUCK UP and it's in the bag!
That said, here are the things she needs to know in order to meet you: 1) you are not dangerous. 2) you are not shy. 3) you are not weird/creepy/overly-invested.
That's it. Guys need to stop over-thinking it!
Invalidity 10y ago
A great lesson for men is to realize that saying more does not increase one's chances at getting with a girl. It goes hand-in-hand with OP's concept of over-investment, but also to establish that, if a guy is winning a girl over, it has very little to do with what he says, and more to do with who he is.
Of course, when a guy has really good game, using conversation increases his chances, but it doesn't seal the deal.
More often than not, a guy will hold the belief that he won a girl over with conversation, but that is more confirmation bias than anything. A guy who has hooked a girl has likely already done so before he has even had a chance to say anything.
Sort of why they don't make dating apps where you talk to people before you see their pictures.
ironblacksmith 10y ago
This is a very subtle concept, but probably one of the most powerful things we pick up from TRP. I didn't actually grasp it until one night I went out with some old HS buddies and a guy brought along a girl he was "talking to". She kept telling everyone she hated me and then slipped me her address and I banged her that night.
In the BP world, this guy was doing it right. He was winning her over by getting her to like him, talking to her and doing everything he was told for years. Now I know the winning over is going on underneath whether or not you're doing all the surface level garbage women are always talking about.
OmLaLa 10y ago
"The Underneath" is where I feel like I dwell nowadays. I go to events that, as a beta, I'd have seen as just a fun outing with old acquaintances. Now it's sneaking off and meeting with their "female besties" in bathroom stalls. It's still pretty hard not to compartmentalize the two experiences.
[deleted] 10y ago
It's the biggest lie of all, that women are less superficial than men. You could be a deaf mute, but if you are masculine and physically attractive women will fuck you.
gum11 10y ago
not entirely true. if there is anyone masculine , fit and not deaf they would get it first 99%
ironblacksmith 10y ago
As a general rule, I assume I can never increase my perceived SMV through text or online. I can however, decrease it. The best way to avoid that is to do what you call baking, keeping texts to a bare minimum and mostly only logistics. If things don't work out or a girl flakes, it's not because I didn't try hard enough but because my SMV didn't begin high enough in the first place. Therefore, I just move on and don't waste my time.
RedPharaohRising 10y ago
I think the whole idea of trying hard is against RP. I'll try. If there's interest, I'll close. If not, I'll move on.
reigorius 10y ago
Exactly this. A profile and how a girl perceives it, determines a guys value in her eyes. Being witty, charming or clever with words does not. You can't add value by text, as girls are just as motivated visually as guys are.
I speak from experience. I used to be, that chatty, happy witted guy, but getting numbers and dates was a real chore. And success rate was low, 1/20 - 1:30. When following Omlala's guide, the numbers and dates started coming.
Girls complain about it me being bad at chatting at the first date. But the mystique you emit by omitting chatting is very attractive to them once she sets your value as high.
Also, for the sensitive guys out there: putting in the bare minimum makes you not care about her and how she perceives you. I noticed a clear difference between drooling over muss wondertits and thinking up witty and clever openers and replies, versus the totally under invested 'hey, what ur looking for, cool same, what's ur number?' approach.
It takes repeated effort to get out the beta mindset. Online dating is good trainung ground.
[deleted] 10y ago
If your game is top notch, you can end up incorporating it in your texts. See YaReally's text game: http://yareallyarchive.com/2013/5/#comment-heartiste-440730
OmLaLa 10y ago
This is a great way of viewing it. Like how with standard grading practices you'd start with a 100% and for every wrong answer you grade decreases.
Also, your SMV would ultimately determine what grade you'd start out with, whether it's a 94, 85, 70, etc.
flat6turbo 10y ago
more like SAT (or at least how it used to be). you get a point for every right answer, a negative point for the wrong answer, and no points for unanswered questions.
in other words, when in doubt, don't say shit.
this is a good rule for so many contexts because it's simple and it works.
[deleted] 10y ago
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Boovs4life 10y ago
Are there more of these? These are pure gold.
[deleted] 10y ago
I dont think the plate asking to be filled with hot sticky cum is all that crazy.
A woman's number one PURPOSE is to be impregnated by an alpha male. I "play" with plates and tell them I want to do exactly that. They love it.
[deleted] 10y ago
I think the main red flag is her saying that she's "good" at taking birth control.
Why is that dangerous? Being "good" at something isn't necessarily enough, even if she's "good" at it chances are she might "forget" to take it and boom, she's pregnant.
I'd watch out if I were you /u/BaconEggsAndSleaze.
[deleted] 10y ago
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[deleted] 10y ago
I said I PLAY that game, I never do it.
I just say it while fucking to rev her up
Maybe "promise" if she really fucks you well then you will take off the condom in mid act.
OmLaLa 10y ago
That sounds like the type of woman that would scrape the cum off of the bedspread if it meant she could impregnate herself the sperm of an attractive man.
Just make sure that by the end of your late-night emissions, the goop ends up somewhere where she can't... re-purpose it.
improvingme63 10y ago
That is one disturbing thought. Just imagine for a second, walking in on that...
OmLaLa 10y ago
...then do you find cumming on your plates' faces weird? Asking for a friend of a friend.
[deleted] 10y ago
I blow it all over their belly and tits. Usually these ladies are married and dont want to mess up hair and makeup too badly
OmLaLa 10y ago
You.
I like you. I like this guy.
Pull up a chair, bud. What're you drinking?
[deleted] 10y ago
Good to hear that because I enjoy reading your stuff.
[deleted] 10y ago
Use the snipping tool or crop. jesus
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OmLaLa 10y ago
Um. Wow.
...and they say I'm the one with luscious women. I mean... "fill me up"? Talk about your proud fathers...
Anyways, congrats dude. You're clearly on your way.
And I will find an excuse to quote that crazy chick.
[deleted] 10y ago
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OmLaLa 10y ago
Ugh, Bumble. I hate Bumble.
Bumble's not too big in my area, but I don't like the notion of it at all because it's counter to most women's method of communication i.e. covert communication.
Initiating conversation is very overt, which means that there's a strong likelihood that the women you'll match with will be dominant by nature (thus akin to more overt methods).
What's more, having to wait on said initiation is starting your frame even deeper in hers than normal (something I'll discuss further in the next post).
It's the purest version of online validation I've seen. They get the likes and matches and reaffirmations of their SMV and they can control who they actually converse with, when and after 24 hours the girl disappears with your wasted time and validation. Like magic.
You are literally becoming a product on the shelf at a supermarket. That's why hot girls are flocking to it.
No risk, all reward, all control over the interaction. It takes what little dominance that could by garnered initiating off the table.
Boovs4life 10y ago
That makes so much sense i never thought about that. You are one wise dude. I'm 19 and I wish i could find a mentor like you.
netflixandch111 10y ago
I'm new to red pill but wow, what a revelation. I have been using bumble for a few weeks now and would have never looked at it from this perspective. I had noticed most of the girls were much shorter in conversation but didn't think to ask myself why. I'm still going to try to get a few dates/meet ups out of it I think. Any other suggestions on dating sites? I also use tinder
OmLaLa 10y ago
I just posted an article addressing exactly this. Go check it out.
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complex21 10y ago
"She MUST perceive you as alpha all the way through for this to succeed or else you’ll all fall on your ass.”
This quote is most important. Your own SMV must be perceived as higher than hers in order to accomplish this. Your level of investment means nothing to the hb9 on tinder looking for validation or attention from the hundreds of matches that she gets on a day to day basis.
Benny757 10y ago
Older guy here, post 50 so I usually mention that to provide perspective, and learn from your replies/comments.
To me, the dialog above just sounds so shallow and boring. I'm quite sure I'd find the gal not all that interesting if all that she could say was "k", but perhaps it's my age?
I've tried both was, more text, and less text, punctuation, etc, and I will affirm, that for older women I date (40's-to 50 or so) they mention they like the charm and wit. So for me, I'm painting with mildly broader strokes and fuller colors.
I also fully agree that the monologue or long texts are a disaster and not necessary.
So I like to apply a little charm and wit, while keeping word count low, and while holding dominant frame. And it has worked surprisingly well.
<edited for spelling>
OmLaLa 10y ago
The dialog doesn't have to be spectacular for someone you haven't met. Until you've met with the individual, especially after meeting online, your goal should be solely to meet in-person.
Any "flair" added will not only act counter to your chances of her not flaking, but will reaffirm your positioning as a "validation resource", being as that's all men on dating sites are until meeting.
It's not about age, it's about perception and investment. If you were beta and a 300lb woman messaged you online and you responded out of "kindness", your responses would likely be less invested than hers by a great deal.
That's not to say that she thinks your ugly. Her level of investment isn't out of phyisical attraction/repulsion alone. Women determine SMV from both physique and frame, both of which are hard to determine:
Older women that you've met online first? This is an important detail.
Spoken like a pro.
Benny757 10y ago
Thanks very much for your words. Yes, I've been dating online. So every contact is purely a stranger. And I've truly found that there just is not time to overly invest. It's not surprising to share that I receive very few "messages" from the gals on Match which I am using mainly right now. I find I need to send that initial contact. It's a tough racket out there, that's for sure. Less is more, less is more....
sir_wankalot_here 10y ago
People here do not seem to understand preselection, or more correctly don't put effort into leads which do not show promise.
I am around 50, the women I talk to online are rarely older then 30. When chatting online, there is an art to it, the example another poster gave is with the massage example.
When chatting/texting each text should be short, to the point and having double meanings. Ideally the texts should create an emotional response, whether the emotion is positive or negative it doesn't matter.
So woman wants to tell me her problems, I don't really give a shit about them.
Her - I am just looking for friends
Me - first friends, then lovers
Her - I have a problem
Me - friends should tell each other about their problem
Her - my problem is ....
Me - k (repeated many times as she is telling me about her problem)
Her - thanks for listening about my problem
Me - I have a problem also, can you help me ?
Her - yes, friends share problems
Me - well I have something that is really hard and painful, I need you to help me !
Her - you are a disgusting pervert
Me - I thought that friends are not supposed to be judgemental ?
Her - some hamsferin
Me - you are not very accepting, you hate me for being a pervert.
Not really a good example above, but you get the idea. First at one point I have turned the texting so she is reacting to me. Then I have set the agenda straight, as in what I have in mind if we meet up, no use wasting time.
My other favortie topics of conversation are about interests. So she asks me, I tell her I enjoy studing boobs, nipples and pussies. Again I get called a pervert, I then ask is appreciating beauty perverted ?
If the above works well, I can eventually get her to start sending nudes. Women seem to have a fixiation on how their body parts compare with other women ????
Again at any point, since I am always escalating, if it doesn't seem to be working out abandon.
OP calls irt baking, I call it stewing. But stewing can take place over a month or so. So start with above, bail out if it doesn't look promising. Check back in a month. Probably because I generated an emotional response she will remember me.
There is an art to texting/chatting. Also don't focus on just one woman, keep a minimum of 10+ going at once. It is like a farmer who keeps planting seeds.
[deleted] 10y ago
One thing which wasn't noted here and is not often considered is market conditions.
If you live in a college town for example you will generally have an elevated SMV during the summer and a reduced SMV in September, October, December & May.
The reason for this is largely due to a flooded market in September/October as post secondary really starts to flood the dating market combined with the general settling in of moving to a new location.
While this does mean more opportunities in theory this doesn't translate to practice until after the first couple months. The local scene is decreased by the glut of new males with the in flow of fresh meat. Note: this applies to men outside of the college campus environment and is specific to online not to be confused with changes in the cold approach marketplace.
In December you have a ebb due largely to the out-swing of co-eds going home for Christmas with a good portion not returning due to failing grades. This generally results in a decrease market until early to mid January.
In May you have a combination of work schedule due to finals and summer job searches and the out-swing of out of towners resulting in a ebb of the market. However unlike December the May period can last as long as until early July. Women will often have an inflated SMV due to the previous experience during the school year and it can take a month or 2 before they deflate slightly and return to normal or elevated market conditions.
This has been my experience and results may vary depending on location.
RedPharaohRising 10y ago
shifts from side to side, guilty as charged. Are you succinct with your mates too?
The whole point is, he might be a complete alpha boss who's just a little bored on that Tuesday after his workout and before his hoe comes over. But in the few minutes in which his impression is made, he doesn't seem that way. Her perception is far from objective reality, but it IS her reality. So he's out.
SonicTRP 10y ago
I really enjoy your posts, OmLaLa. Especially the practical ones. Keep it up.
dropkickoz 10y ago
Re: baking
My text app will let you schedule messages, so I like to write my reply then have it be automatically sent later in the day.
[deleted] 10y ago
This is gold. Love the attention to detail with the punctuation, capitalization, and grammar. Also I enjoy your analysis of "unneeded" words. I always look to do this before pressing send
[deleted] 10y ago
OmLaLa, if you were to write a mass message to many girls at any time, what would it be?
Also, is there a way to add more ab definition to a shirtless photo. I'm pretty jacked and robust. Flat stomach but no "Adonis" like abdominal definition like you haha.
sundaybrunch11 10y ago
omlala, seriously dude, you need to write a fucking book. I will buy it for me and my closest friends.
TermsOfColors 10y ago
I understand where you're going with this. All of this is probably going to work with someone you have already met in person. If it is some random girl you don't know, and they don't know you, I don't see any "frame" other than the one Tinder/OKCupid/POF/Match/Etc has set up. She probably doesn't either. If she didn't like your pics, she wouldn't have matched you or responded to a message. With that being said, it should just be common sense not to message them a million times...
The best advice for online dating is to meet them offline as soon as possible. I've met up with girls before from Tinder without ever bothering to ask them for their number. I've matched with a lot of girls on there who responded to a few messages and then just went silent after I suggested a meetup. I just remove them from the queue after a couple of days. I just assume they're not on there to meet anyone and move right along.
[deleted] 10y ago
So I've left convo's on tinder before when they say something boring, I "win" because I just don't respond or respond with "k". This doesn't lead to me getting laid though, I don't get it, I invested the smallest amount possible, what went wrong?
askmrcia 10y ago
Honestly dude it doesn't matter. You can invest very small or very high. Whatever you choose, doesn't guarantee anything ESPECIALLY on TINDER.
I have many examples in my message box on Tinder and if I wasn't lazy I'd upload them. There are times I responded quickly as possible because honestly I didn't give a shit if they respond or not.
Then there are times where I won't respond because I get tired of being on my phone all day. Both lead to the same results in the end. I got so many numbers on Tinder and dates set up, that in the end they usually result in flakes.
Here's the thing, if you invest small as possible you run the risk of coming across as boring as fuck. Yea its a better option then messaging back fast or with long texts, but you still run the risk of coming across as boring.
Usually I tell girls up front I hate boring texters. If they like you, they may try and prove to you that they are not boring and will actually type a long message.
There are times I did exactly what you did. I just don't respond if they text me one word messages and sometimes they will never respond back or sometimes they will.
My point is, you are not doing anything wrong. Yea you don't want to come across too needy, but at the same time you don't want to come across as boring. And it really doesn't matter if you're in the middle because the bitch is on there just for attention most likely anyways or she's bored from Winter break to begin with.
Out of all the 50+ matches I've had in the past 3-4 months and all the numbers I've gotten, I've only had one (she was hot too) date actually come through. And you know what happened? She just needed some dude to go see the fuckin James Bond movie with. And sometimes I get the girl sending flirty emojies or whatever, still result in flakes.
IMO you're better off picking up girls at parties, bars, college campuses, through friends or whatever. All the girls I dated this year in 2015 came through meeting them in real life. All the Tinder chicks I matched up with, flaked on me with the exception of one.
Not saying its impossible to get Tinder girls because I do know some people around me that had success, but try not beat yourself over it too much.
EDIT: I had one other match from Tinder and it was a single mom (she was hot and I said what the hell?). That one, I did invest as little as possible, but our messages went back and forth very fast. We went on two dates before she ignored my texts and I saw her again on their two months later when I made a new profile. She spent our second date telling me how much she hated the app and was going to delete it.
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[deleted] 10y ago
How much non-investment would I be showing if I just scrap all spaces & punctuation all together haha. likethis4example
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vengefully_yours 10y ago
I'm still not going to bother unless I get bored this winter and want to be banned from a bunch of them again.
Why? Simple. I'm 46, dating sites want me to match girls in their 40s. Why the fuck do I want to fuck fat, wrinkled, single moms that have made poor choices in life?
If I contact the girls I fuck after we meet in person, they get the whole "eeeewww creepy old guy" thing going because they're under 28. For me is a waste of time, but it is fun to send outrageous messages and offend girls. Actually that got me laid once, but she wasn't anything I wanted to fuck again.
[deleted] 10y ago
Well you've figured out how the algorithms work. Why don't you say you're 24?
vengefully_yours 10y ago
Because it's still not worth the effort. In person I'm attractive, online apparently not. Around here is mostly fat girls and desperate single moms. I can get them without bothering online.
Limekill 10y ago
Obviously online dating dose not match to your strengths - so what is the primary game for you?
Actually it is harder to show significant value without attracting gold-diggers it seems.
vengefully_yours 10y ago
My primary modus is intimidating bad boy, I'm muscular and it shows in person, plus my demeanor is that of most ex military. Tighten them, then make then laugh, and I get my dick wet is the basis of it.
Limekill 10y ago
Sorry I should of been more specific - I meant street (day game), nightclub? Or more social activities?
vengefully_yours 10y ago
Day game. I've been doing it for 30 years now, and meeting sluts through friends. Around here the people suck ass, mostly losers who will try to get over on you at every opportunity. So meeting through friends isn't as lucrative as it once was, unless I want meth/heroin addicts.
JohnTheTeasingMethod 10y ago
A simple rule I follow is that I always take slightly longer to message them back than they took to respond to my last message.
Often I'll set a timer because otherwise I'll forget to message back at all. It's a very annoying method to follow but it works.
[deleted] 10y ago
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JohnTheTeasingMethod 10y ago
That's normally when it's most effective. Think about it from their perspective. Normally, they take days to respond to a guy and he responds pretty much straight away. You're the first guy that actually takes even longer than she does to respond. With those girls that alone can qualify you. It's stupid as fuck but it works.
[deleted] 10y ago
Realize that women do the same thing. With my last gf (before I fully committed to TRP) I knew this little trick. Before we started dating exclusively, our messages were basically a standoff on who would wait longer.
Just before breaking up with her I did something a little bit stupid, but very revealing and ultimately worth it. I went through her messages. I was forced to choose between a very good medical school and a very average medical school that would leave us in the same city. I wanted all the info I could get to see if making the sacrifice was worth it (hint: it never is). Apart from a slew of obvious hypergamous "innocent" texts with guys from work, beta obiters I knew nothing about, and clear signs to move on, I found "dating advice" from her massive whore bff, who is the definition of a RP nightmare. Sure enough, here she is telling my gf that she must always wait at least as long as I do to respond.
The other takeaway from this is that I was Chad, and two years later she had still betafied me and continued perusing for better alpha cock. I think most on here would've seen her as a unicorn too.
DiscerningDuck 10y ago
it's hilarious how women automatically assume that what works on them works on guys. but beta males to the same thing I suppose.
[deleted] 10y ago
Personally I think that technique works on anyone. I know it frustrated me, and it definitely made me want her more than I did before. Once something becomes elusive you only want it even more. That's human nature, regardless of gender. Abundance mentality keeps you from getting frustrated or impatient with these girls, but I know I fucking love the chase, and if she makes it harder for me, it's all the more satisfying when I finally get what I'm after.
cynicalsimon 10y ago
online dating for men is useless. that's the real red pill, so swallow that fucker whole.
Lsegundo 10y ago
What makes you say that? I have had dates, lays, FWB and LTR through online dating. Right now I don't initiate most messages and work with what I have incoming.
[deleted] 10y ago
Still good for plates, and what does it cost you? At the end of the day if you can get your SMV above 6 then it has a decent ROI. Just don't rely on it for your whole dating life, because it's low risk, low reward.
OmLaLa 10y ago
Like dabbling in stocks on the side while working a salaried job. You might get lucky in stocks and not need the salaried job anymore, but you shouldn't ever approach the stock market with the sole expectation of getting lucky and dropping out of your career.
All I'm doing is teaching how the stock market works.