We've spoken about Gronk!ing already. It's the act of trying to project dominance without regard to the situation you're in. Especially on TRP.
And /u/humansockpuppet has expanded on this, explaining how dominance is for achieving goals, not a goal in and of itself.
But we need to talk about this still more.
- When you are with women, you must project dominance all the time. Women only respond to dominance, never to persuasion or shared goals.
- When you are with other men, projecting dominance is one of several tools. Sometimes you need to take charge in order to get done what needs doing. And sometimes you need to shut up and shovel the coal.
Most importantly
- There is no shame in deferring to a male authority when it makes sense to do so.
This is the part many of us miss. We must understand why this is so.
In our feminized, feminist society, we have taken steps to abolish all social hierarchies, seeing them as inherently oppressive. To a feminist, power = oppression, always. This means that people only defer to each other out of fear. They defer to their managers at work for fear of being fired, they defer to police for fear of being arrested, they defer to laws for fear of being punished, they defer to those who use dominance strategies and intimidate them.
That is the only type of deference most people know. They defer if they are intimidated or defeated, and they feel shame.
But there is another kind, and that is deference out of respect. Respect for a person's accomplishments, for their skills, for their territory, for the benefits they have provided to us, or simply respect for the most efficient way to get shit done.
- Deferring out of fear is shameful for a man. And it should be.
- Deferring out of respect is not.
Here in TRP, we teach you how to fight back and win when someone tries to AMOG you. We teach you how to dominate others when it's time to do so (vital for getting sex). But the reason we get all these Gronk!s is that they are men who have only ever deferred to or followed others out of fear. That's all they know.
So, whenever someone else is leading the charge, or in the spotlight, or has the badge that says "Vanguard", they feel shame. They think that if they do not immediately challenge and beat this individual in a contest of wills, it is proof that he has a bigger penis, and they must hide their faces in shame.
Male social hierarchies are not based on intimidation. They are based on respect.
Men naturally congregate in groups to accomplish a goal. Whether that's hunting mammoth or selling software. The leaders are not the best intimidators, but the ones who have invested the most time, invested the most effort, and contributed the most to group goals. They have earned respect. Some groups you are in, you will lead, because they are the ones you invested heavily in. Others, you will be a follower in, because you invested less time in those, and you just want to show up and participate. You can only focus on so many things.
EC members are not chosen for being the best men with the biggest swinging dicks. We choose them because they have contributed and earned respect. TRP becomes partially their territory because they helped build it.
This explains how a group of alpha males and aspiring alpha males, can get along. They earn each other's respect. Only this way can a team of men working together be built.
Without the twin abilities to earn respect, and to give the respect that others have earned, you cannot accomplish any goal that is too big for your own two hands. You can only build a team by giving respect when it is earned, and knowing how to earn it.
- Do not submit to others out of fear. If you lose your nerve, and do, feel ashamed, and use that shame to motivate you to do better.
- If someone earns your respect, give it. In the fullness of time, you will take what you learn from them, and use it to earn the respect of others.
Whisper
If you liked this article, please don't buy me any more Reddit Gold. I have enough to last years, and Spez and Ellen Pao don't need more soy lattes. Instead, the completely optional "Buy Whisper More Steroids and Send Reddit to Chapter 11 Fund" can be found at the following Bitcoin address: 1DChc2Azt3zGHbZcwBwPG42jL9B8SuktdD
HumanSockPuppet 9y ago
One thing that I love about The Red Pill is the way it has evolved over time as we have overcome personal hurdles.
It began with discarding our illusions about sexual dynamics and realigning our perceptions with reality.
Then, it moved to mastering the art of seduction, so that we might free ourselves from the tyranny of our sex drives.
After that, it moved to rediscovering the freedom to define masculinity based on our desires rather than our "obligations".
Now, we have begun unpacking all of the poisonous lies about male bonding, so that men can once again forge meaningful relationships with peers, elders, and progeny.
Only time will tell what barriers we smash down next in our pursuit of happiness. But at long last, we know that it is happiness that is driving us.
NightwingTRP 9y ago
The evolution of a group is inevitable when men work together. The natural urge to find solutions means that when things inevitably change, the approach of the men will adapt to suit that change.
[deleted] 9y ago
[deleted]
CrazyHorseInvincible 9y ago
Precisely.
His words were medicine, not candy. Often people mistake helpful male social rituals for bullying, because they don't understand the male mind.
Point added.
MorpheusGodOfDreams 9y ago
This goes back to the fundamental difference in communication styles between men and women:
Men bond through focused activities in which an older and more experienced man gains respect from younger men in exchange for knowledge. This natural hierarchy is implicit in all male relationships, and allows for measured growth over time.
Women bond through sharing of personal information and the accompanying mirroring of facial expressions and emotions to encourage their conversation partner. This creates solidarity and strengthens kinship in the tribe.
When a man has a problem in his life, he asks for advice from a man he respects in order to achieve the information needed to defeat the obstacle on his own. This creates a feedback loop in which one man receives answers and the other is able to offer a solution, leaving them both happy.
When a woman has a problem in her life, she shares her frustration with a close friend to relive the moment and gain control of it. She is not looking for advice, but is trying to share the burden and stress of the moment with another woman and receive support (I'm here for you).
When men share information, the goal is usually to solve a problem or come to a mutual understanding of each other's opinions, or to simply tell an entertaining story with a point. Many men have observed that women rarely solve problems without a man's help, and instead share less vital information like who is dating who because it includes less conflict of ideas.
Problems arise between the sexes when people seek bonding across the gender divide. When a man asks a woman for advice, she tries to empathize (that sucks...) and begins to see him as weak when he becomes more frustrated (why isn't she helping?). When he tries to challenge her opinions in order to understand her values, she becomes defensive because she considers it an attack, and he considers her too sensitive.
When a woman shares her problems with a man, she is looking for support, and is instead given advice to fix the problem (why won't he just listen!), while the man is confused because his version of supportive advice was rejected (why did she even ask?).
InfiniteCrimson 9y ago
I gotta say this is probably one of the best thing's I've read on this sub.
Thanks.
[deleted] 9y ago
Solid explanation of the reason you don't offer to fix a woman's problems
sorceryofthetesticle 9y ago
Thanks for this post, it really highlights a lot of the communication issues I have with other men. I was raised to be a supplicating chump by/for women so I have their social communcation style down pat (unfortunately).
A question about the final paragraphs of your post:
For the first: Is this to say that men simply ought not to ask a woman for advice? Or should we just outwardly 'appreciate' what little women have to offer if we do ask and they got nothing for us?
For the second, I think most men who have needed TRP are already very skilled at "listening" and "supporting" when a woman talks about her problems. Providing comfort is necessary to maintain a relationship, but how do you make sure not to do it too much, like most of us have done before? That is, how do you decide when to choose not to provide the "feminine" support that women unknowingly seek? Or do you just condition her not to ask?
MorpheusGodOfDreams 9y ago
first: yes, men should never ask for a woman's advice, since there is always a man around who knows more about the topic and can provide more useful knowledge. The worst thing to ask for advice on is relationships, due to female ego centrism and solipsism.
second: this needs to be cut off immediately in the beginning of getting to know the woman. If she starts with this crap, a simple thing to do is laugh in her face for trying to turn you into her black female sidekick in movies. Another option is to literally adopt the exaggerated stereotypical mannerisms of this type of character to show her how ridiculous she sounds. for an LTR showing comfort is important, but this should be far after you have had sex with her. Kind of like buying flowers - you should never do this for a woman you are not already banging.
nuferasgurd 9y ago
This should be it's own post.
[deleted]
[deleted] 9y ago
Sometimes it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool then to speak and remove all doubt.
magus678 9y ago
I like this observation a lot. I think this is a another case of women projecting; since they would themselves always use power to oppress, they don't even recognize a line between the two.
sorceryofthetesticle 9y ago
Absolutely. They only think about what they'd do in that situation, not what a reasonable person would do.
Once I stopped by an ex's house to grab my stuff after she broke up with me to bone someone else. We agreed on a time to meet and everything, but after it happened, she still managed to accuse me of coming over unannounced, intending to hurt or rape her (thank FUCK her roommates, mutual friends, were there). I asked her how the fuck she could even think that (at the time I was a gentle, skinny waif, rarely even raised my voice on her), and her response was, "well, that's what I would do if I were in your situation." Retarded (actually, probably borderline, but same thing).
Putting that logic in the frame of feminism and power really brings things in to focus, wow.
[deleted] 9y ago
[deleted]
[deleted] 9y ago
Strong independent women are mostly exaggerated caricatures of pseudo alpha men.
notrustled 9y ago
This has to be one of the best lessons I've ever read, it speaks right to me. Sometimes I still get salty if I'm not leading, and it's a problem. I gotta accept that I don't always have to be the top dog - and that I actually have to earn respect and not just AMOG like a mofo.
[deleted] 9y ago
[deleted]
magus678 9y ago
I appreciate the post, but respectfully disagree.
This includes every male alive, practically. Our blue friends simply have a bad read on what "optimizing" really means. Remember that everyone acts in such a way that they think will get them what they want. If this and a dick are the only prices for entry, most of the gender is in this gang.
Further, I think gang is an appropriate word, with all the negative connotations included. There is a rejection of standards of behavior here; there is no moral soul. This is, perhaps, necessary in our context. But it precludes this being a tribe in the way you mean it, otherwise subs like male fashion advice fall under that banner as well.
Knightofthewest 9y ago
Goddamn that was a great post. I see this dynamic in all the well-functioning male groups that I participate in both on and off work. If men in general aspired to earn other mens respect, and ignored all the other "false idols" of inflated egos, vanity, arrogance and pussy, society would become a hundred times better. Real power is powered by the respect of other men.
Red_Swords 9y ago
Good post.
I wonder if this type of disrespect is related to the degradation of male spaces, in general. Anything that looks evenly remotely like hazing has been demonized over the last decade or so.
I'm a firm believer that new males in a group are like dogs - they have to go at AMOGing each other at least once, and establish an internal hierarchy, or else the group won't function well - most people won't be sure of their place or purpose, or their relative amount of power in the group dynamic.
No natural hierarchy results in group members that unsure of themselves, passive-aggressive, and always scheming to get ahead of their peers - just like a group of women.
TheMGhandi 9y ago
Great post but one thing didn't sit well with me:
Hell to the no. Dump your manager in a nice way, say nothing to the police and stand your ground against dominance/intimidation. Submitting to another human being is pathetic, plain and simple. It's going to leave a lasting image in your mind and yes, it can motivate you to do better, but it's not worth the damage in the long run.
Whisper 9y ago
Left out a word. Fixed.
[deleted]
magus678 9y ago
..the post says do not submit to others out of fear. Even if it was a typo that /u/whisper edited later, I think context clues probably could have let you figure that one out pretty easily.
I think this is, in a sense, what he is talking about with the Gronk stuff.
TheMGhandi 9y ago
Yeah, I was hoping to measure my penis against Whisper's penis in the hopes I'd win. Seeing as he fixed the problem, I was not only validated, but now my penis has reached Modlike proportions. The question here is: why does someone who's Gronking off all the time think it's okay for himself (that would be you magus) only to do it?
oldredder 9y ago
meh.
The more internet-only words we make up for shit the less masculine we appear to be.