TL;DR: See title.
Here is a link to the full study: Conditional expression of women's desires and men's mate guarding across the ovulatory cycle.
I've quoted some key part of the study below, with my commentary. Let's skip the foreplay and get right into it.
Women's preferences for hypothesized indicators of good genes—including facial masculinity, vocal masculinity, body scents associated with symmetry, and behavioral displays of intrasexual competitiveness—do indeed peak near ovulation.
Women rated what they find attractive. The questions did a good job at eliminating any hamstering and getting to the core of what women truly find attractive. They found that women are sexually attracted to physical symmetry and alpha traits.
Also, women are more attracted to alpha traits when they are at their most fertile. This is because sexual strategy is really reproductive strategy. It is female instinct to reproduce with the most masculine (alpha) male.
Women also rated their partner's sexual attractiveness and attractiveness as a long-term mate.
The study called them Sexual Attractiveness and Investment Attractiveness.
Sexual Attractiveness was correlated with how likely the women were to have a one night stand with the man. Investment Attractiveness was how women rated the men for LTR status.
When women were mated to men with low Sexual-versus-Investment Attractiveness, they were particularly likely to experience increased attraction to men other than their partner when fertile.
Even though women typically under-rate their hypergamy, the study still found a massive correlation between how attracted women were to other men and how beta their partners were. The more beta their partners were, the more women were likely to find other men attractive (especially alpha males).
Men low on sexual attractiveness, relative to attractiveness as a long-term partner, were reported to increase their jealous and possessive behaviors midcycle more than sexually attractive men … men who are low on sexual attractiveness evidence the greatest increases in jealousy and possessiveness.
Beta males became jealous when their partners flirted with other men. The more beta, the more jealous. The fact that more sexually attractive men are less jealous supports the idea that displaying an abundance mentality is correlated with male sexual attractiveness.
Men rated as particularly good mates overall were less jealous and possessive overall.
Men with high alpha traits as well as being good LTR material were less jealous.
In exploratory analyses, we examined whether comparable effects would be found on male positive inducements to female fidelity, as reflected in women's reports of love and attention received from partners … Men perceived to be higher in overall mate value, relative to self, tended to be claimed to be less loving and attentive overall.
High value men were less likely to do nice things in an attempt to retain their partners.
Women tended to report feeling greater power and desirability, relative to their partners, when they were fertile … the effect of fertility status was especially carried by women with partners not particularly attractive as short-term mates themselves, relative to their long-term mate attractiveness
When a woman feels horny she also feels more attractive. At the peak of their ovulation cycle, women see beta partners as even less attractive than usual, compared to themselves.
Women also equate their sexual attractiveness to power. For women, sexy equals powerful. When women compete among themselves for sexual attractiveness, they are competing for power. You know all those women’s magazines you see with hot women on the cover? Women see those attractive women as powerful. When a hot girl marries a rich man, that is power plus power.
… and by less attractive women
This was at the end of the last quote, but I want to discuss it separately. What it means is that less attractive women are more likely to despise their beta partners than more attractive women. So, during ovulation an HB4 is more likely to see her beta husband as becoming relatively less attractive to herself than an HB7 would.
Check out this graph from the study
The vertical axis shows how much relationship power a woman feels compared to her partner. The horizontal axis goes from beta males at the left to alpha males at the right. Interestingly, women with alpha partners feel power over their relationships during ovulation.
More attractive women reported greater sexual desire.
So, even though less attractive women are more likely to flirt, hotter women feel more horny. This is probably due to a couple of factors, one of which being that hotter women are healthier women and healthier women have a higher sex drive, all else being equal.
It seems that less attractive women are more likely to have less sex with their beta partners and also more likely to attempt to cheat. I actually felt a little sorry for beta schlubs at this point.
The differential effects of general sexual desire and extra-pair desire suggest that shifts in women's desires across the cycle are target-specific.
Alpha men make women wet.
Women's commitment to their partners was lower on high fertility days within the cycle, they did not find cyclic differences in women's general happiness in their relationships, which further suggests that the female temptation to stray is not the result of motivations to switch mates.
The study shows that women are less likely to engage in branch-swinging and more likely to pursue a tactic of alpha fucks-beta bucks. Also, women can say that they are happy with their beta partner, yet still want to have sex with an alpha male.
Women were predicted and found to report greater interest in going out to places where they might meet men (dance clubs and parties) when fertile than when non-fertile. This effect was not moderated by women’s relationship status, or their physical attractiveness.
Never believe a woman who says she goes for girl’s nights out just to hang with her female friends. If you’re in a LTR and your girl does this, you have trouble on your hands. Consider the last sentence in the study quote. Relationship status did not change the fact that women went looking for alpha men when they felt most horny.
However, one thing did.
Women mated to men with high sexual-versus-investment attractiveness showed no tendency to be more attracted to men other than primary partners midcycle.
There’s the kicker. Women who were partnered with alpha males showed no increased attraction to other males. If you are in a LTR or interested in being in one, there is only one way to keep that pussy at home where it belongs: be alpha.
Edited to correct my labeling of the graph.
KyfhoMyoba 8y ago
This is understandable considering the tendency towards assortative mating, i.e., men and women mate with those of similar SMVs. Women with higher SMVs would be mated with higher SMV males, and hence would have a much smaller pool of males to "upgrade" into. Women with low SMVs (with low SMV mates) can branch swing to any number of higher SMV males. As hypergamy limits a woman's attraction to males of higher SMV than her own, a low SMV woman has a much larger pool of potential cheating partners than does a high SMV woman.
Options = instability.
[deleted] 8y ago
Excellent point. Women rarely if ever fuck down. Dudes do it all the time. Therefore an extremely hot girl has fewer cheating options, not because there aren't willing contestants, but because she is going to nope 90% of dudes.
herbalism 8y ago
It's a little depressing how predictable the whole mating game is.
I actually just had my ex suggest that we be FWB instead of staying in a relationship because she thinks I'm an asshole and I don't want to marry her. She then suggested that she would get back with her first bf to possibly get married, but wanted me to get her pregnant first. I seriously couldn't believe it when she said this. Of course this is a terrible idea, but I just can't believe she would even suggest this. Redpill is confirmed more and more every day.
should_ 8y ago
Props for the speedy nexting
commentatorX 8y ago
It's heartbreaking when they finally show their hand like that...
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GoatwithHorns 8y ago
As a 5'6" man with a babyface it sure isn't any great news. Can alpha behaviour really outset that? I mean, in comparison to the ubiquitous mr Thundercock and his height and square jaws?
TomSachs 8y ago
I wouldn't say that is exactly a "beta" desire. Alphas could and would get married. Contraceptives and no fault divorces kinda fucked that up.
turbo_blender 8y ago
it is depressing to people whose ability to develop the alpha traits is severely limited.
collidoscope 8y ago
I am coming from the beta mindset, but I also want to believe that 30 years ago, a woman wouldn't have made this offer to this guy. Can we really say that "things have been exactly this way all along?".
Biologically, these forces might have been at work since the dawn of time, but when communities were tighter knit and there were stakes for a woman (she would be called the town whore for sleeping around), it would have kept her biological impulses in check. A woman's need to look good in society is more powerful to her than her animal brain impulses. In the past, she would have believed she needed the community to support her and survive. The last thing a woman would want to do would be to throw away her "good standing" among her friends.
grubek 8y ago
Most women have always slept around. Some did it with more discretion than others. Plus women have always had children with other men than their husband. It happens way more than we realize and than women will ever admit.
Some people on trp like to idealize the past, but there is a reason why little boys develop their motor and coordination skills first while little girls develop their social skills first. Women need to be cunning and manipulative while giving a weak and innocent front to pursue their sexual strategy.
collidoscope 8y ago
Do you have any statistics to back this up? I would argue that in previous generations, women didn't have as many household appliances, gadgets, and services that enabled them to have a lot of leisure time. Most of their time was spent in the house just making it run. There wasn't an online identity to be obsessed with, and there wasn't as much sexual imagery around.
In the first half of the 1900s, before modern advertising came into existence, people in America were customers. They bought things they needed to help them get by in life. After advertisers figured out how to exploit the desires of the average American, they turned Americans into consumers, people who buy things because they believe some new product will improve their lives.
Nowadays, with modern technology, we as a society are consumers of everything. What is Tinder but light-speed window shopping for a mate? And when that partner bores you, you throw him/her away and find a new and improved mate. The point I'm making by mentioning consumerism is I believe that our consumerist attitudes have infected every aspect of modern life and we assume that it was always like that. We assume people didn't give a fuck about each other in the past and have always been "trading up" sex partners. I think people in the past had much more empathy than we do now. They made relationships work because they wanted to. Studies have shown how technology has steadily decreased human empathy. For a while, even wars were fought with honor.
While you make some valid points about child development, I think for much of history mostly women in upper classes were fucking around.
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RPAlternate42 8y ago
"Hey, you guys wanna rub our balls together?"
iLLprincipLeS 8y ago
interesting, the theory might be worth a separate thread. and the bonobo word alone, i don't know, it sounds so good: BONOBO
aguy01 8y ago
Damn that video is worth watching. Insightful yet hilarious. "Let's rub our erect penises together!"
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RPAlternate42 8y ago
Steroids? Kick him in the knee... steroid users have wildly weak joints due to the overly-rapid muscle growth outpacing tendons and ligaments.
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[deleted] 8y ago
Why is that depressing?
Thats like the biggest compliment you could have possibly received ever. I mean literally there is no other proposition I could think of that is more flattering than that.
RPAlternate42 8y ago
Call it a shit test:
Asked for him to impregnate her, have the other guy raise him, and when that guy didn't work out, come running back to the father for her slice of the biological pie.
By him saying "Yes," she says, he's my BB, I know I have a backup plan for my backup plan.
By him saying "no" she says, damn, well, at least I have my new BB and my ex as an alpha back-up plan if I get bored.
evileddy 8y ago
"hey can I have some sperm?"
It's as if they objectify men into walking talking sperm machines.
RPAlternate42 8y ago
You can have as much as you want, baby! In your mouth... and I need to see you swallow it.
evileddy 8y ago
I would not even trust that... they could have years of puking up food experience to stay thin and puke up yer load onto some tissue paper and stuff it up their vagina.
RPAlternate42 8y ago
Biologically, I don't believe she could keep sperm in her stomach for any amount of time where regurgitation would ensure viability.
The pH level of the stomach (1.5-3.5) is high enough to de-mobilize sperm. However, re-neutralization of the solution could restore mobility (such as adding baking soda to the regurgitation) but the increased salt content of the mixture would increase osmosis from the cells, essentially drying them out and killing them.
On top of that, the vagina is already a hostile place for sperm. Seminal fluid (>7 pH) attempts to neutralize the acidity of the vagina and give the sperm something healthy to live in, but the stomach contents would render that fluid non-neutral, non-viscous, and diluted.
I would put the chances of conception from shoving vomit in one's vagina on par with statistical noise, as in, I'm not concerned...
evileddy 8y ago
Thanks for doing the math and eradicating my fears of letting them swallow.. usually I blast the tits or pull out and remove condom and blast the belly then wipe it off myself and put the hand towel in the laundry right away.
sgt-pepper12345 8y ago
How old is she/how long were you together?
herbalism 8y ago
I'm 29, she's 30. We've been together for about 3 months.
[deleted] 8y ago
You should be bangin late teens ans early twenties leave the hags alone.
Scarbane 8y ago
Together only 3 months and she's already seriously bringing up marriage? Sounds like textbook Post-Wall behavior.
DoesNotMatterAnymore 8y ago
Well, we just saw it in the study, after a certain age, they have to shift they priority:
from Sexual Attractiveness to Investment Attractiveness.
They still want the best possible genes but also need BB to raise the kid.
KyfhoMyoba 8y ago
Not quite. Read The Epiphany Phase on The Rational Male.
beginner_ 8y ago
Whats the problem with that? It's honest. You know what she wants and you get to decide what to do with that information, be it next her or maybe you actually want kids and are happy about this.
sgt-pepper12345 8y ago
I think I'm with you on that as well actually.
Currently discussing marriage/child plans with my Red-Pilled LTR, it means we don't have to fuck around with niceties and coyness (we've known/liked one another for a decade now, so she's been thoroughly vetted and can absolutely confirm she never rode the CC).
The other day she suggested a prenup because although she wouldn't now, she 'wouldn't want to divorce rape me if her personality changed in a decade or so.'
We're both 25, but I've been in the dating game since I was 12 (hit puberty at 10, so got more than a head start on my peers), so I'm more than happy to settle with a properly RP woman - remaining blunt/open keeps the relationship free of the sort of bullshit that builds up and makes couples hate one another.
cocaine_face 8y ago
I once had a 27 year old bring up marriage and babies within two months of dating.
Next.
Thursday088 8y ago
Thank god for those women, they wear their crazy on their sleeves. Makes it so much easier to cut and run before shit gets stupid.
648262 8y ago
Happened with a 32 year old in one of the first tinder messages we exchanged. I'm happy she did.
Oarngie 8y ago
I once had a 29 year old bring up babies within the 2nd date, said she had her tubes tied and not to use a condom. but she could undo it if I wanted to get her pregnant.
littleboyredpill 8y ago
This happened to me but she was 23 or 24... That's very post wall in Utah. If you're not popping out babies by 19 or 20 something is wrong with you. They all go to college to find a returned missionary to marry them in 3 months and then drop out once they get preggo.
TomSachs 8y ago
Same thing happened to my "alpha mentor" brother in college.
cocaine_face 8y ago
It was a pity too, liked her and the sex was some of the best I'd had. I was pretty broken up about having to end things with her. Last major time I didn't feel totally abundant.
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cocaine_face 8y ago
Oh I know. It's why I did it at the time.
Especially when she said things like, "well if I got pregnant I'd definitely keep it!" And saying that having kids was "the highest purpose two people could have".
Post PUA, pre TRP me knew something was up. But I was still women are wonderfuling & believing men were exact equals
RP-on-AF1 8y ago
Good grief 2 months, what did you expect from a 27-year-old? I can't believe a woman could have the patience to go 2 dates without talking about the thing she really really really wants more than anything ever.
cocaine_face 8y ago
I was still in the process of transitioning from blue to red back then. This was some years ago.
I remember idly mentioning my intended profession (which salary sites list as having an average salary at or above $100,000 - which I didn't know at the time), and what can best be called her aggressively pursuing me (as far as a woman does).
Her plan was nearly perfect. She was trying to winnow down whether I was down to be BB, with the baby and marriage talk, but merely ended scaring me off. If she had just let it naturally happen, pre-TRP me may have gone with it.
RPAlternate42 8y ago
My go-to answer is "Elephant Wrangler." I can tell a ludicrous story and segue into non-job conversation.
The other method is to tell a story about how I use "Elephant-Wrangler" as a story to keep people from asking about my job. I then persist with the elephant wrangler story and segue into a non-job conversation.
If they persist I say I work at a Law Firm. Any questions beyond that I ignore, evade, and reassert with my own question.
KyfhoMyoba 8y ago
"I'm an athlete on the International hopscotch circuit." or "Olympic javelin catch." But my favorite is
Disposable lighter repairman.
RPAlternate42 8y ago
Where have I heard this? Something about... "I just can't get the flints in and it ruins my day..." or some such. I just watched a movie with this in it!
newmeforever 8y ago
I had a 20 year old bring up marriage and babies before we even hung out once.
cocaine_face 8y ago
Was she religious? That's atypical behavior for a 20 year old.
newmeforever 8y ago
Funny you say that.
Yes she is religious. What made you ask that? lol
cocaine_face 8y ago
Because 20 year olds will typically only bring up marriage and babies when they are religious, because they intend on having them earlier.
Redasshole 8y ago
You forget the women who wants to divorce rape someone quick to fund a second run on the CC between 25 and 30.
I swear, women gets into relationships only to get money. We are investment to them.
newmeforever 8y ago
makes sense..
Anyway, we hung out once, I escalated a lot physically. Lots of touching, no making out, but a kiss on the cheek at the end. She texted me after saying she loved it and we agreed to hang out again. Then she fell off the face of the planet, and started ignoring me. Followed up w/ her 3 days before our planned second date to ensure we were still on, and she agreed. I decided I didn't have time for games, and didn't like being ignored the week before the follow up, and decided to next her.
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Ronin11A 8y ago
Dat Abundance Mentality, mane.
BetterRedThanRed 8y ago
Just three things:
The study states: Sexually attractive men do not get jealous and protective.
It is important to note that this study does not support that displaying abundance mentality makes you more attractive. Rather, if you are attractive, you automatically worry less. You don't have to fake it or pretend.
Just because a HB7 probably is in a LTR with a 7/10, while a HB4 is in a LTR with a 4/10. Desire to cheat on a 7/10 is not as high as desire to cheat on a 4/10 man.
Unfortunately, they mentioned four things that make a man alpha and only the last one they mentioned is behavior. The other three things are out of your control.
The hard redpill truth is: Some of us got handed shitty cards. Some of us will never be alpha, just less beta.
WingedHussarx 8y ago
That's exactly what I interpreted and I felt OP missed the point a bit. Sucks to be one of the guys with the shitty cards
[deleted] 8y ago
I appreciate that you read through the study.
I used the word 'correlated' deliberately and did not outright say that, according to the study, displaying abundance mentality automatically makes you more attractive. However, I think that it might. This study is not our only source of information and other sources and personal experience indicates that having an abundance mentality tends to add at least a little to a perception of attractiveness.
Right, it's a relative thing. I also suspect that the lower a woman is, the higher she perceives her value during ovulation. Let's say we have your HB4 and HB7. During ovulation, the HB4 may feel like she is an HB6, but the HB7 only feels like she is an HB8. The HB6 now feels like the world is her
penisoyster, whereas the HB7 would already be used to feeling bangable.Not quite true. You have some control over your voice, too. And remember, this is merely one study out of many. Other studies show that decent muscular development counts, as does financial independence, and a couple other factors.
That's not an attitude I would encourage. Be the best version of yourself and enjoy being that man.
BetterRedThanRed 8y ago
It is a redpill truth, though. Who says that the truth must be useful, encouraging or/and motivating?
The only open question is how much you can still change your SMV. But it is a fact that there are limits. A 2/10 will never be a 8/10.
hirjd 8y ago
They've put the stud back into study. W000t. This is a low effort post and will be removed.
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HoundDogs 8y ago
Fantastic study, and fantastic commentary. Thank you. All the more reason to be alpha, regardless of your relationship status.
FaustoRMD 8y ago
Nothing new, and we can't blame them. Look at today's boys: patchy bears , moon faces and skinny fat bodies everywhere. The game is physiological. Nothing else matters. Hell, life itself is physiological.
Beta men=sick men.
[deleted] 8y ago
Not really. They have a role in society. We can't all be alphas, just like we can't all be artists and mathematicians.
FaustoRMD 8y ago
Everyone was alpha times ago. Women were less slutty ages ago because men were men. Nutrition is fucking up society.
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Sepean 8y ago
That's just not true. Alpha behaviour matters more than alpha physique. You need both to be at top of course, but physique is the least important.
FaustoRMD 8y ago
Alpha behavior is conditioned by physiology and it can't be faked.
Sepean 8y ago
Ok, then I'm a natural alpha who was faking to be a beta until TRP taught me to just be myself.
vraleigh 8y ago
I've always wondered about that. Thanks.
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[deleted] 8y ago
You are totally mixing up cause and consequence..
[deleted] 8y ago
No, I used the word 'correlated' deliberately and I am well aware that correlation does not equal causation. However, my own personal experiences and those of many other men indicate that an abundance mentality is attractive. It displays confidence in a context specific to sexual relationships and confidence is always attractive.
r1chten 8y ago
lol, of course they do!
am curious what scientific quantitative or qualitative metrics they use to define 'beta'
[deleted] 8y ago
The terms 'alpha' and 'beta' were my commentary and not used in the study. The study used the two phrases 'sexual attractiveness' and 'investment attractiveness'. It roughly amounts to the same thing. Sexual attractiveness are the traits we describe as being alpha, with the addition of physical symmetry. Investment attractiveness meant that they were less sexually attractive and more suited for long term "investment". The study questions made the women divide their partners into whether or not they were more someone they'd be attracted to if they just met them and wanted a night of hot sex, or if they could see themselves married to them in the future.
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all_the_right_moves 8y ago
What fucking gold. Gonna link this article to my blue-pill friend and hope he starts to see the light.
r1chten 8y ago
be careful, although you may have the best of intentions but brothers must seek knowledge/the pill for them to be receptive to its teachings.
a baby horse must have its legs broken for it to be a true stallion/thoroughbred.
Ronin11A 8y ago
Clearly, you haven't spent a lot of time around equestrians.
all_the_right_moves 8y ago
wait... really? They need to break their legs?
r1chten 8y ago
the name of the book escapes me but i recall explicit detail. perhaps it was non-fiction since PETA would have caused fuss of it by now.
[deleted] 8y ago
Dude, pretty sure it would have to be a malformed twisted leg that would be broken and reset.
Breaking a foals legs isn't horse circumcision or something
EntGuyHere 8y ago
A horse with broken legs usually gets put down though
JohnGalt316 8y ago
so do most men
what do you think beta bucks is?
EntGuyHere 8y ago
With the horse example you are talking about an accident or being born with a deformity. Being beta is something you are taught, you could be born as an alfa but if you have a blue pill education you will be a beta until you wake up
razorwan 8y ago
Are betas even born with sacks though? Or do they just slough off over time?
Avedas 8y ago
Blue pill seems to be very much a nurture thing rather than a nature thing.
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Reworking 8y ago
I think most women like possessiveness to a point, as long as it's more sexual/dominant.
e.g. "You're MINE and only I get to use your holes" will make her wet.
But you'll turn her off immediately by saying "I want to be the only person you're ever attracted too. Why are you staring at Chad? You're dating me so you shouldn't do that."
Lots of girls I've been with have gotten off on it. Most women fantasize about being objectified by or serving a high-value man. Frame is everything.
I think that's really what women mean when they say they like possessive guys.
[deleted] 8y ago
Well said. You explained it better than I did.
[deleted] 8y ago
They speculate about this in the study without coming up with a definitive answer. My own theory is that unfounded jealousy shows a lack of confidence, which is not sexy. However, women do like to feel safe in a relationship and if they know you consider them your woman they feel more secure (feminists hate this, but it's true). So, you show a little bit of jealousy, but not in a needy way. You respond appropriately and decisively to real situations, without worrying yourself about hypothetical ones.
Of course, sometimes responding appropriately is nexting her. She needs to feel this, too.
-Quotidian 8y ago
Think it might also be about Push and Pull? If you're not jealous, you can keep the woman off-balance and wonder whether or not you're looking into other options (light Dread)? My theory is that women dig possessiveness when it's a matter of aggression, stemming from something other than fear or insecurity. Abundance mentality, again. Sounds like it comes down to playing the hamster right, if you're not just straight-up more desirable.
Pook had an analogy about birds. Women want to catch a certain kind of bird because it's big and impressive and hard to catch. Stuffing that champion in a cage is a fucking achievement, and it means that they're a success as a woman. Even a good-looking bird will get looked at funny if it flies into the cage; they'll assume something's wrong with it and that it has less worth.
One of the reasons every chick wants Chad to commit is because they know Chad doesn't commit. Women have their own kind of pride, and Patrice O'Neal summed it up pretty well: "You become her ego," and she bases her worth on the highest value man she can get. The problem is that women think their value is equal to or higher than that of any man they can fuck, rather than a man they've had a relationship with.
Bottom line, don't let her feel too secure. She should know you'll abandon ship if she fucks up, and that you'll have other options when you do. If you're jealous, then neither of you are aware that her pussy is not special and you're letting her dictate the relationship. Of course, if the two of you aren't even together there's no point in jealousy. It was just your turn with her.
[deleted] 8y ago
Its also possible that when a dude isn't fucking his girl properly, he knows it. Him knowing it makes him nervous. Him being nervous makes him jealous.
She isn't getting fucked right so she goes looking for Chad.
Mayhaps the jealousy is just a byproduct of other problems (not fucking her right for an example) versus the jealousy its self being the turn off?
Just spit balling.
[deleted] 8y ago
The study actually says that higher sexual satisfaction did not stop women from going out looking for alphas. I didn't put that in, because it goes against other studies I've read and I wanted to think about it some more. Perhaps there was a flaw in the methodology of this study.
Anecdotally, I've seen what you said played out in relationships. Those situations can really mess with a guy's head.
Manmore 8y ago
Doesn't that just mean that sex toys can't replace proper cock? Sure, beta boy might feel good (as in being skilled technically) and she might come several times during the hours he spends eating her out, but it's not the caveman hatefuck she fantasizes about. Beta is just a human dildo.
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[deleted] 8y ago
The first step to change is awareness.
JDRaitt 8y ago
Subtle comment basically saying I'M AN ALPHA I'M AN ALPHA LOOK AT ME I'M AN ALPHA.
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[deleted] 8y ago
I would draw a distinction between jealousy and aggression.
Aggression is two rams butting horns to see who gets HG9 (hot goat 9/10) over there.
Jealousy would be the beta ram who raises the kids.
NineInchPitchfork 8y ago
Clearly symmetry is where it is at. I wonder how I could boost mine?
That is fascinating that women can smell gene compatibility. Probably yet another reason to go light on cologne so as not to overwhelm her ability to smell your pheromones.
Interesting stuff OP. Not the easiest read but I will take this over bro science every day.
RichardPalma 8y ago
This is something that really depends. The purpose of cologne is to have it so that you smell the same way as positive experiences in a woman's past. Smell is very linked to memory and by giving a smell from their past, you link them into the feelings they had in those memories. Some women respond well to Old Spice because it gives them the comfort of daddy, while others will find it triggering. With all the bros standardizing on Axe, they might associate you to some AF they had in the past, but I feel more often they will associate you with thirsty fuck boys that have annoyed them. I'll wear drakkar noir now and then (I like the smell, and women often compliment it too), but I find just myself, showered a few hours earlier, is the best for meeting women. While it certainly doesn't drive all the women crazy (probably drives some away), there are some women who just seem to get really into the smell and that translates into wilder, better sex. Also, I feel if you are going for an LTR, then your natural smell is better to go with.
bluedrygrass 8y ago
Dude. Seriously. Slow the fuck down with the "female superpowers" narrative. And maybe read more.
The ability to smell genetic compatibility have been claimed in both sexes for years, or decades even.
It's nothing new, and it's believed to be what makes us to "fall in love", to subconsciously recognize genetic compatibility.
But, again, it's no female prerogative. And it doesn't mean much. Just take a look at how most couples are assorted, and you can see how random based the assortment is.
ChadThundercockII 8y ago
And people were dissing on the fictional story about the Russian mobster.
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TomSachs 8y ago
100% this. Especially being a guy. Noticed this when guys worse looking than me were pulling women. Sure it gets some sloots to approach you and hand out a compliment but it doesn't close.
Marsupian 8y ago
Being ripped as fuck certainly helps but if it's not backed by confidence and alpha behavior girls dry up real fast. You have to both lift and internalise the mindset. That together with practice is where real results happen.
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[deleted] 8y ago
It's actually not smell perse.
Its actually a tiny organ inside the nose that detects pheromones.
Pheromones are kind of like a smell and kind of like a sixth sense.
Pro-tip: girls who are ovulating (horny) don't mind a stank ass sweaty dude straight from the gym. Some actually love it.
AtlRP 8y ago
There was a study that showed men and women naturally select colognes and perfumes that compliment/augment one's pheromones. I'll try to find a link.
EDIT: http://phys.org/news/2013-01-women-perfumes-mimic-immune-cells.html
MarvelousWhale 8y ago
Definitely interested to read that one.
[deleted] 8y ago
Yeah it's called an olfactory bulb. Still smell.
Humans have like 17 senses, and each time we refer to any that isn't the traditional 5, we call it the 6th. Ffs it's not.
[deleted] 8y ago
Indeed. Reals before feels please.
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[deleted] 8y ago
TAARs seem to be different from ORs.
LibertarianLibertine 8y ago
Can you elaborate on the 17?
[deleted] 8y ago
Pain, hunger, chem trigger, temperature, lots of them.
FishFoxFerret 8y ago
This one chick loves putting her face in my arm pit and just laying like that.
nicethingyoucanthave 8y ago
I've experienced that as well. It's probably the equivalent to how some women's pussy will smell really good to you - and it's not a hygiene thing, it's just the particular bacterial flora that her body supports.
We're probably detecting the histocompatibility complex, which is a set of genes related to the immune system. Which means (as usual) that we're selecting for healthy mates.
The next obvious question is, how can you make use of this? Well, the most obvious thing would be, "try to be healthy." Don't smoke. Don't drink too much. Eat right and exercise. Beyond that, it's probably a good idea to avoid covering the smell up. Don't wear cologne. Select a very subtle deodorant. Try to avoid perfumes in stuff like laundry detergent.
[deleted] 8y ago
I completely agree with your suggestions. I've been perfume free with my LTR for a long time now. We also eat healthy, exercise/lift and use surfactant free products for showering to avoid messing up the skin microbiota by stripping away too much of the skin's natural lipid layer. Does it boost the libido? Yes it does. A lot. Probably more so than lifting. The only downside is that once your nose recovers from the numbing scents you apply to yourself, you'll start noticing all the other scents around you when you're out and about, and most will bother you because they are so strong. Kind of like how most people will be bothered by that lady on the bus who emptied half her bottle of Chanel No 5 down her cleavage.
jaredschaffer27 8y ago
I used to travel and backpack a lot with my ex. We'd go several days without a shower or with minimal whore's baths and the thing that always surprised us the most is when we'd come back from one of these trips into the city, how incredibly pungent everyone's deodorant/cologne/perfume was.
Danedina 8y ago
I had that, too. Freaked me out at first.
MarvelousWhale 8y ago
Can confirm. Came from the gym multiple times to find a horny bitch who wanted to fuck before I showered. At first I thought, shit I've got to shower before we fuck I stink like hell but one time I fell asleep after the sex without having a shower yet, and when we both woke up I asked how I smelled and she said I smell good.
That was all the confirmation I needed.
EDIT: I'd like to add an Italian friend of mine who is a fan of organic/raw lifestyle let me know he found greater success with women when NOT wearing cologne than when wearing cologne as it masked his natural body odor. I'm still cleaning my lifestyle up to be able to achieve this without stinking however.
[deleted] 8y ago
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/sweating-and-body-odor/basics/causes/con-20014438
The apocrine glands secrete onto your skin when you're under stress. This then breaks down by bacteria releasing an unpleasant odour. This is very different from the secretion of your eccrine glands which is basically like the salty sweat of an athlete.
There was a science article recently with a bunch of guys using a bacteria that ate the apocrine sweat without producing the stink. They were not showering for weeks or months at a time.
MarvelousWhale 8y ago
Managing skin bacteria for body odor, interesting. I'd like to read that study.
[deleted] 8y ago
I am not into cologne at all. The only time I do wear cologne is if I am going all out with a girl who I know to come from a traditional strong family.
There is a pretty high chance that her father or better yet grandfather wore either Old Spice (the real stuff, not the new fruity ass spin off All Spices) or Aqua Velva.
If you smell like a girls father or grandfather she will probably fuck you.
Weird but true.
[deleted] 8y ago
I got asked by a senior colleague if I had been out drinking the night before.
Turns out it was my Old Spice I had put on half an hour earlier.
Manly musk, lads.
redkick 8y ago
Wow, that's probably worth a study in itself.
MarvelousWhale 8y ago
What did the original old spice smell like?
[deleted] 8y ago
They still sell it. If you just look for "Old Spice" instead of "Old Spice____" its there.
[deleted] 8y ago
Pheromones have not been demonstrated to illict any effect among humans.
[deleted] 8y ago
How do you explain synchronized menstrual cycles then?
[deleted] 8y ago
they also, factually, do not within humans. Synchronized menstrual cycles are acutally a result of women being stupid. Statistically if a few women live within a house a few of them will likely have parts of their menstrual cycles overlap, just by pure chance. Women take this as they sync up.
I will obtain references for both my assertions upon request.
[deleted] 8y ago
Please provide references.
I'd like to see this. I know women who've said their whole household has synced up.
[deleted] 8y ago
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-women-who-live-together-menstruate-together/
this gives a good summary of it
Here's one of the best papers about it:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs12110-006-1004-0
nofapandfurryous 8y ago
How about not deadlifting with mixed grip? Using dumbbells for OHP and BP, but always let the working weight be determined by the weaker side? Always watching your posture (also outside the weightroom) and not keep asymmetric poses (e.g. in front of a computer) for long periods of time.
Anyone got any better ideas?
NineInchPitchfork 8y ago
I think facial symmetry is key and short of plastic surgery I am not sure what one can do to improve that.
Edit: I remember reading about preferred symmetry between muscle groups years ago in the context of body building. There were specific ratios that judges preferred and it equated to the classical greek golden ratio. It might have been in Arnold's Encyclopedia of Modern Body Building. I may dig it out and have a look. One thing I remember was when they showed a group of average women photos of various body builders of the time, their overwhelming favorite was Bob Paris.
DoesNotMatterAnymore 8y ago
http://www.yoummisr.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Photos-Bob-Paris-bodybuilder-Bodybuilding-workout-routine-2014-Bodybuilding-Fitness-Your-Guide-to-Building-Muscle-Supplements-Bodybuilder-Photos-youm-misr-68.jpg
ohh well
CK_America 8y ago
I've never resented getting bells palsy more then this moment. For those that don't know it paralysis one side of your face. It's left me physically two faced/asymmetric for years.
nofapandfurryous 8y ago
Is your skull asymmetric? If you don't have much fatty tissue in your face all that's left are muscles.
TomSachs 8y ago
Bob Paris is my personal pinnacle of male attractiveness. Did you find that study?
Myrpl 8y ago
Well, I'm fucked. I have many moles in face and body and tried many times to work around it with dermatologists who insisted that it's not necessary and it'll do more damage in the long run.
[deleted] 8y ago
Moles don't do it I don't think. I am Hans Moleman myself and I do ok.
I think its like one eye being lower than the other (like I have) or nose being to one side etc.
occult91 8y ago
there is a sort of pseudoscience thing online called "facial yoga" they claim that you can make strenuous face poses to build muscles in the face, probably not true but if anyone is interested google it
[deleted] 8y ago
I wonder if that could chisel out your jawline some.
Never hurts to have a badder jawline.
[deleted] 8y ago
Nailed it. Another study I've read says that male facial symmetry predicts female orgasm. Compared to facial symmetry, sexual technique didn't even rate as important.
Diet. People who have lousy diets over long periods of time have less symmetrical facial features. Of course, there are exceptions, but if you average it out this tends to be true. This is why rich people tend to be more attractive than poor people, on average: they can afford healthier food. Obviously, this is something that takes years to develop either way and has the most effect during the formative years.
Also, stress is another factor that you can have a bit of control over that can shape your face.
Basically, healthier lifestyles lead to better attractiveness. This makes sense in a mating context, because better attractiveness signals better health, which signals both better resources and better genetics.
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RemyPrice 8y ago
Yeah, sounds like unfounded bro science.
truchisoft 8y ago
Also rich people marry beautiful people for generations so they biologically engineered themselves.
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disposable_pants 8y ago
This assumes that their wealth has been around for generations, which isn't always the case.
truchisoft 8y ago
I would bet that new riches do not follow the pattern.
[deleted] 8y ago
I got my ass kicked pretty good at about 18-19. Actually cracked my skull.
Pictures before/after if you look closely you can see one eye is slightly lower than the other.
So I guess facially symmetry could also be a gauge of combat success/failure.
I mean in my case it was like 4 on 2, but still.
MarvelousWhale 8y ago
It's rare, but I've seen skilled guys handle five on one. Numbers don't mean as much when you know how to handle multiple opponents, so your theory on combat success could still hold true even in your situation.
commentatorX 8y ago
Skill doesn't mean shit when you're outnumbered, even by one. All the reflexive technique in the world isn't gonna block a suckerpunch to the back of your head. If you're outnumbered, kill your ego and state you 'don't wanna fight' - if that's clearly not an option, leg it, run for were there are crowds/assistance. If that not possible either, keep moving backwards and stick to striking.. But most important.. DON'T GO TO THE GROUND/TAKEDOWN WHEN THERE ARE MULTIPLE ATTACKERS!
[deleted] 8y ago
Thank you. I don't care how hard you are 5 DETERMINED attackers are going to fuck you up. Even 2 determined attackers are likely to do you in.
Whenever I have seen a guy win a fight severely outnumbered is when there is only ONE OR LESS determined attacker with a couple dudes standing near him PRETENDING to be determined attackers.
There is a difference between kicking the asses of a bunch of dudes who wanted to talk shit but weren't prepared and determined combatants, and facing a fucking hockey team by yourself.
redkick 8y ago
There's one skill that has a chance to handle it: showing RP behavior. Don't show that you're scared, try to keep the situation under control just by talking to the offenders in a clear voice demonstrating dominance. Most fights are actually handled at this stage.
Just keep the attackers in your field of view and at a distance of at least more than an arm's length. Otherwise you're going to get a surprise attack. When they talk to you, they might just play for time so they can get into the best attacking position possible.
Of course, still try to get out of the situation as quickly as possible. If that's not an option (cornered or with someone who is panicking) hit first and hit hard, possibly scaring the rest of the pack with excessively brutal behavior.
I don't think that's something you can learn by just reading about it, though. Even when simulating this situation in training, the first few times everybody panics and forgets everything they've learned before.
Bill Kipp is an expert in this field.
[deleted] 8y ago
Finding out who the instigator/determined aggressor/alpha male of the hostile group is and dealing with him swiftly is probably your only other chance besides the chest beating you talk about above.
Either way its probably a pretty slim chance.
MarvelousWhale 8y ago
I'm not talking about skill in kicking, punching, reflexes or any style of fighting. I'm referring to the rare skill of managing multiple attackers, it's a skill in and of itself. Movement, distance management and timing, etc.
This would only be necessary when there are no options of course, but either way, for the other 99.9% of the population your advice would be true if there were a place to run.
commentatorX 8y ago
This is why young men should be taught basic boxing: striking and moving - before anything else IMO. Totally agree.
redkick 8y ago
Yes, but this can be dangerous as well when taught incorrectly. When you learn striking and moving in Karate, Kickboxing, Jujitsu or Tae Kwon Do, you're always assuming that there's only a single attacker. You focus on this person and go in to land your strikes.
In reality, you don't even know how many there attackers there are, or if someone else might join the fight against you because they think you're the offender. Also, this one attacker might fight “unfairly”, like throwing something into your eyes, spitting, using a hidden knife, etc.
The only styles I found that actually care about modern real world situations on the streets are Krav Maga and Combatives. Both are relatively new developments that came from militaries (Israel and USA respectively), which don't care about elegance, rituals or traditions.
I_is_the_best 8y ago
That's very basic knowledge. The interesting part of it is that you can see if you're more of a natural AF or BB based on how they react to you in different phases of the cycle.
[deleted] 8y ago
Yes. Finally some scientific, empirical evidence proving that af/bb is real and does happen, and that it happens often as well. This is what we need: solid scientific evidence. People like to write off anything regarding male-female relations and sexuality as "pseudoscience". Well, this is anything but.
Newdist2 8y ago
Finally? Finally?!?
This is like exhibit #8332
[deleted] 8y ago
Wasn't there a study that showed how the term alpha is flawed in the context of wild wolves, since that surrogate behavior existed only in captive packs?
And they translated it to humans as well? Obviously i can see the social hyerarchies and archetypes, but some people see jesus in their coffee. I want to know if these terms are scientifically accurate.
VictorEremitaK 8y ago
Everything on this subreddit is seen through an already accepted philosophy.
xcallide 8y ago
Beta guys aren't "schlubs"; give people respect until they betray it. For all we know, these men have been force-fed "the narrative" their whole lives, and believe it.
The main takeaway from this article: don't disgrace your ancestors. After countless years of evolution, you are supposed to be the epitome of maleness. You are supposed to keep the human race surviving and show that your genes are worthy of being passed into the next generation. Women evaluate your worth.
The criteria for being a worthy man has deviated too far from the biological criteria. Some "nice guy" traits are attractive, and some "alpha guy" traits are attractive. Some "nice guy" traits are unattractive, and some "alpha guy" traits are unattractive.
We need to stop focusing on being "alpha" and start focusing on being good men. The type of man that others can rely on, and that no one would dare betray. The type of man that protects the pride of his brothers, and respects the accomplishments of others. The type of man that loves his family, and has a sense of duty, honor, and pride.
NeoreactionSafe 8y ago
Both men and women are attracted to those who they find attractive even when it's outside of a relationship. (even religions acknowlege desires are not escapable)
We should never think otherwise.
The real question is in which container we are living out our lives.
In todays world there is no containment of desires (at all) and with no penalties we all just revert to being animals that do whatever we want. (IDGAF)
That's the deep secret of all this.
You want family?
You need some containment of your and her desires and so at that point civilization becomes necessary.
But civilization is now illegal.
Even if you wanted to you couldn't get a Marriage 1.0 contract, so we're all just basically fucked with the family idea.
The progressives want the family dead... and it's working.
Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks simply proves the family has been killed off.
Chad the "Cad" Thundercock has free reign because the progressives want this to be so.
The whole thing has been designed to exist this way now... it's on purpose.
.
What's interesting is in my readings I've learned that Stalin actually hated the Marxists. When he took power he went about reversing all the anti-family policies of Lenin. We don't normally learn this because as Americans we are being taught things the progressives want you to learn, but Stalin was in reality much different than many people believe.
The progressives have actually degenerated to be no better than the Marxists these days with their manipulative emotional conditioning tactics. So the progressives are actually closer to Marxism now. It's too bad because the original progressive ideal was rather masculine and logical.
I could even imagine myself as a progressive back when it was logical, but that's gone now.
.
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[deleted] 8y ago
From the study: "Fig. 1 shows one individual reporting an extreme shift. The Male Sexual-versus-Investment Attractiveness interaction remained with this individual removed, F (1,18) = 5.10, P = 0.036."
They gave it a decent shot. It's fairly clear that they found what they set out to find, though.
thefisherman1961 8y ago
Don't you just love science?
disposable_pants 8y ago
I'm curious as to how this was achieved, though.
Overkillengine 8y ago
Phrase the questions and conduct the setting in such a way that answering honestly does not appear to have any sort of ill effect on social status or ego investment.
[deleted] 8y ago
And non polarized questions
And picking the form carefully: "don't you like X" vs "do you like X"
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disposable_pants 8y ago
How, though? It's been established that men and women both will lie on anonymous studies about how much sex they've had. What, specifically, is this study doing that makes them reasonably certain they're obtaining truthful answers?
[deleted] 8y ago
Did not read this particular study, but they tend to stay away from downright asking them and more letting objective data do the speaking. For example they don't have to ask for ovulatory cycle. They just check it. For the scent part, I remeber they made some guys sweat in some t shirts and let women smell it without men present. For the attractiveness they use computers and only give women seconds to judge someone so they get down to their true nature. Or instead of asking them who they'd bone, they just show pictures of a broke bad boy and a rich meh guy in different ovulatory cycles. Then repeat the whole thing thousands of times so trends can confidently can be established.
Ibex3D 8y ago
I didnt read the study but I'm assuming its the difference between asking "How many people have you had sex with with?"(Which will make a girl feel like a whore) as compared to some bs like "How many partners have you been intimate with?"(less likely to trigger shame). Not the best examples but you get the point.
[deleted] 8y ago
And you ask the same question several times but you word it differently so if you get different answers you can bin all the answers from that woman.
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M3_Drifter 8y ago
If I read that correctly, not only do women in relationships with betas feel more sexy/powerful during ovulation, but women with very alpha partners feel less sexy/powerful during ovulation.
[deleted] 8y ago
The graph shows how much relationship power they feel they have relative to their partner. Looks like I mislabeled that as attractiveness when I posted. I will correct that after I reply here.
So, when ovulating, women with beta partners feel considerably more power over the relationship. But women with alpha partners feel less. Since the study says that women with alpha partners remain attracted to them rather than seeking strange cock and since the graph shows they feel less power, I assume this means that during ovulation a woman with an alpha partner actually feels more submissive toward her partner. That's a very interesting point for men in LTRs.
no_face 8y ago
I think TRP as a theory has matured enough that many elements are supported by some form of research.
A solid TRP guide that is fully backed by citations would be a great contribution if someone has the time. This takes some rigor to ensure that we keep the anger stuff out ('All women are sluts!') and ensure the points are worded correctly, i.e., 'men predominantly represent STEM professions' rather than 'women can't math!'
iJJD 8y ago
One of the best posts ever made here.
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[deleted] 8y ago
All women, even your mother or sister, when they are in the fertile part of their menstrual cycle, will go and try to get pregnant with an alpha fucks (go out on girls night out), and then use paternity fraud to have the beta raise it. AWALT. All women are subject to this instinct, and people, especially females, behave on instinct first and foremost. Beware of this nature. Only way this won't happen/ she won't feel this instinct is if the woman doesn't have a uterus and thus cannot ovulate.
[deleted] 8y ago
Who cares about keeping women at home? What I'm a jail keeper now? If a girl goes off the reservation, there are plenty of others. I'm not trying to find a negotiation to mediate.
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alphbux 8y ago
Did you read the paper itself? It was published in a peer reviewed journal. You linked articles by a blogger.
Correlation does not always equal causation but the context and controlled variables and many other observations along with it in science do make it closer to causation.
[deleted] 8y ago
I love when people bring up "correlation vs causation" as if it is some magical science breaker. Think about it this way: is a person sick because they are coughing, or coughing because they are sick? Does the causation chain matter? Stay the fuck away from that person!
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