In general, women who just like to drink and have a good time are a bit superficial in their desires... why wouldn't they be? That's sort of the whole point of drinking. They just want to cut loose and enjoy themselves. So when they go out, girls are looking for something that makes them happy in a really immediate way that they don't really have to think about, like a good looking guy, or someone who's well connected and does all kinds of cool shit.
Guys who go out drinking a lot of the time aren't just trying to enjoy themselves, they have some ulterior motive, usually meeting women. The two groups have totally different mindsets and the aloofness these guys see in the drunk women pisses them off, and makes them think all women want the exact same things in a guy.
I think the 80-20 rule is right, but I don't think all women have the same top 20%. I think a lot of men here would be better served not trying to fit into a niche that they don't even respect or care about. Not all women are out at bars every weekend. I'm not saying men shouldn't improve themselves, I'm just saying it's kind of pointless to try and appeal exclusively to drunk women. I think if a lot of us were honest with ourselves, we could really give a shit what a bunch of drunks think of us.
Thoughts?
RedPope 12y ago
So be that guy. Be happy, good looking, cool, and connected. Just don't give her what she wants.
What does she want? She wants free validation, free entertainment, free status by association. The key word is free. She wants your time, your energy, and your presence, all without giving anything in return.
But only fools work for free. Give her a taste. Show her you're cool, show her you're fun, and above all show her you're interested. Give her 5-10 minutes then move on. The minute there's a pause, say "I'm going to go mingle. You seem like you might be cool. I'll check back on you later."
Go to the next girl and repeat. And then a third.
If you can open two girls like that and build some attraction, you are top 20% and they'll know it. Do three in a row and you're the hottest guy there and the whole bar knows it. Hang with your bros for a bit and let them simmer.
Now circle back, and see which of the three is willing to start paying for your attention. Will she give you a kiss? Reward her with more fun. Will she let you isolate? Reward. Make out? Reward. Bounce? Close.
I'm trying to get laid, not win respect. I'm not trying to find a LTR or a soulmate or a unicorn. If that is your goal, stick to day game. Bars and parties are for getting your dick wet. If the sex is good, if she's submissive and eager, get her number and make her a plate. If she's cool and fun, but the sex is dull, make her a FWB. If she's boring and lame in the sack, forget her name.
Sunshinelorrypop 12y ago
A bar is the perfect place to meet women. Simply being out is a sign that they are available (unless it's a hen night or something like that).
You've just got to be that guy to offer her what other people can't. Sanity.
[deleted] 12y ago
this is like the fifth "you are just meeting women in the wrong place" troll we've had today. This trope is tired, and not helpful to anyone.
soulracer 12y ago
Agreed. You can meet women anywhere and anytime, instead of trying to find the perfect environment.
soulracer 12y ago
How about this to change your view point. It really sounds like you're just bitter about bars.
Women in bars are colorful tropical fish who like to swim around the sea with other fish, just to swim around as fish do. Fish don't go out looking for bait on a hook. Men in bars are like a group of men hanging out together fishing and drinking. It's about the enjoyment of fishing and hanging out, not necessarily catching dinner. The ones that dangle their bait without it being obvious it's bait, catch the fish. And that does actually mean you're not desperate to catch something, but you're always hanging your bait out.
When I go out, I certainly talk to girls and sometimes take them home. I've met one night stands, but also girls I've seen longer than a few months, as well as the bitches who are just out for attention. It's fun to hang out in bars and talk to people. This doesn't mean I'm trying to fit into a niche and appeal to drunk women. What does that mean anyway? Is that a different species?
I think you're just trying to justifying your dislike/failure with women in bars, by narrowly projecting your personal bitterness. Not saying this to be mean, but to help you realize, where I believe your thoughts are coming from.
[deleted] 12y ago
Yeah, for certain guys bars are great. The niche comment was referring to people who actually don't fundamentally enjoy the bar experience and are going and trying to become something they're not to get laid. If you're just a social guy who enjoys the atmosphere this generalization isn't going to apply to you because you're just being yourself.
I like the idea of hanging at a bar and just taking in the scenery, but for a lot of guys they just naturally don't have fun at a bar. They don't fit in to the scene. To them a bar is just a crowded room blasting douchey music. They see the girls dressed as hot as possible and the night turns into a hunt regardless of their original intentions.
This post is more for the guys who go to bars solely to get laid, and every weekend they just leave pissed off and drunk.
roparker2014 12y ago
You just contradicted yourself. You said women just go out to have a good time - such as by meeting "a good looking guy or someone well connected".
Then you said men don't just go out to have a good time - they usually go out to meet a woman.
So why is going out as a woman to meet guys "just having a good time" whereas going out as a man to meet women is "having an ulterior motive"?
[deleted] 12y ago
I see why this was a confusing way to word things. I meant to say that women are just enjoying the atmosphere, and are in no way looking to get laid. So they'll talk to awesome guys, because that is cool in and of itself, but they're not looking to make it happen with someone who doesn't stand out because it becomes this huge issue that distracts from the night.
For (some) men, that IS the whole night.
MasterTrollKing 12y ago
Because men are going out for the sole purpose of sex, although they initially disguise it otherwise, thus the ulterior motive. Women are out to paint the town, if they see something they like, they may submit themselves.
Take the typical male out of this situation. What does he truely want?
"sex"
Take the typical female out of this situation. What does she truely want?
"Someone special."
roparker2014 12y ago
Right. Are you sure you aren't confusing your own feelings with those of all men? Most of my male social group certainly wouldn't consider that all the socializing they do is "with the sole purpose of sex" - even the single ones!
MasterTrollKing 12y ago
Of course not. You are absolutely right. I was just trying to clear up what OP meant when he said ulterior motive. Not everyone thinks like this, I certaintly don't. But the typical Guy, in the bar scenario (outlined above) does have this endgame. Which is why they are there. Most of the time. I gathered that that was one of the main points of the post.
CyricYourGod 12y ago
I unabashedly say that if I'm taking to a girl it's for the purpose of getting some pussy. If I want a new friend I'll find a guy. Girls are too full of drama to be good chill buddies. I have better things to do than be some emotional sponge for a girl who isn't putting out.
[deleted] 12y ago
Typical party / club situations are horribly boring and dull for a grown man. Without the possibility of finding somebody to have sex with or practicing game there would be no reason to go out. Talking to a bunch of drunk idiots and listening to their drivel? For a woman this is genuine fun, not for a man.
roparker2014 12y ago
Well yeah ... "Grown men" tend not to socialize at parties/clubs - those are full of teenagers. We go to nice bars, pubs, restaurants etc.
But if you have taken that into account, then I feel sorry for you. What is fun? Sitting home on the internet or Playstation for hours alone? If your social group is "a bunch of drunk idiots" then try finding some decent friends?
[deleted] 12y ago
Picking up girls make these situations fun. But without this there would be no point. It also depends on where you live. Here where I'm at the only pickup is at parties or clubs. People don't date and day game doesn't exist. Unless you're looking for 40+ women. In other places like South America I think partying is genuinely fun because it is done with friends and friends of friends and the mood is great. In Scandinavian countries there is such a sense of urgency at most parties which ruins the mood when men are competing for the girls since girls will only initiate a short or long term sexual relationship when they're drunk at a party or club. This gives a very boring frame to the whole situation. Nowadays I prefer staying sober at the few parties I go to and if I can't escalate with a girl reasonably quickly I call it a night.
roparker2014 12y ago
Almost sounds like putting pussy on a pedestal to me, sorry.
[deleted] 12y ago
Bad way to look for LTRs, perfect for a hit it and quit it situation.
mormon-virgin 12y ago
Its all subjective because the bar and party scene itself is subjective depending on location, clientele, etc. I personally have met a few amazing women at night clubs and even at house parties. At bars, not so much. Some venues are also restaurants that turn into bars/clubs which may bring in higher quality people.
[deleted] 12y ago
Bars are one of the best places to pick up one nighters.
PaulRivers10 12y ago
I think that trying to meet a guy at a bar who she doesn't already know for a woman is a lot of work. Of course if she'll just sleep with anything it's not, but her role is the gatekeep and it's a ton of work to try to figure a guy out at a bar. If she's usually more of a relationship girl, being part of a social circle is the easiest for her - the social queues and arrangements her emotions pick up on are far more reliable in a social circle where people have to be more respectful, where people have reputations, and where people's opinions of other people are more difficult to fake.
The lack of social consquence for negative actions means that women at bars can often be bitches, and men can be super aggressive. Women who aren't as much into "push and push until I give in" tend to be fairly defensive.
The other side of the coin, however, is that often women feel a certain amount of discomfort and wondering "should I do this" whenever they're crossing the line for the first time from plausibly-just-friendly to actually sexual.
I've personally found that it's easier to get something going in an enjoyable way with someone I already know (though usually haven't known to long) from a non-bar social circle, then get them to come out. Or if I meet people in a bar, I'll go the opposite way - invite them to do something non-bar-related. Another component is that they have to have something interesting to say. Counter-intuitively people invest more if they're doing something for you, so if they aren't trying to entertain me back I move on.
Maybe it's because I'm fairly good looking, but the "push push push" approach is just god awful for me - it "works" but I end up so turned off I don't even want things to go anywhere any more. If I'm clear in my intentions, and try to mix the bar (an unnassociated social environment) with more comfort (a group activity with friends) things just work out way better for me.
soulracer 12y ago
Point taken as a personal, social environment preference. Some people just don't like loud crowded place.
But, I think the crux of the matter is the thinking of "push and push until I give in". That's not the way to do it. Same as if she's thinking, "should I do this" you've done something wrong. As in other points in this thread, there's this assumption that you have to be this super aggressive behaving guy and you're just trying to trick her into bed.
I think people forget the fundamental principle of not being too goal oriented, because it's picked up on. Whenever I end up hooking up with anyone at a bar, it's just as much her wanting it, because it's an enjoyable interaction and she's attracted, not "giving in". I never scheme my way consciously, but it just happens smoothly. It's just natural for me to not care about hooking up with a particular girl, because I don't, and it creates comfort and interest. Abundance mentality and reality. That's a common principle of TRP. Again, that comes across.
When you aren't trying to obviously pick her up, it's a different dynamic and the bar venue is just another location on earth, yet lubricated with alcohol. Of course assuming you have good game and are interesting, attractive, funny, masculine, etc.
Just my 2 cents. Let's not forget the principles, and erroneously extrapolate from incorrect approaches to social interactions. I think this thread needs a reminder of fundamentals.
PaulRivers10 12y ago
You know you're kinda right, I didn't take the time to spell it out more. It's more push / back off / demonstrate value / push / back off demonstrate value / etc. This doesn't get into the complexity that yes, many girls you should just "next" because they aren't interested.
Completely wrong. I thought "should I do this" before ordering something off of amazon yesterday - if you think the girl is not going to have second guesses about sleeping with you, then you're WAY more attractive than she is. I mean as a guy I have "should I do this" thoughts about having sex with a girl. You assertion is absurd.
The last girl I kept flirting with, she came back to my place. She had told me that she liked me. She started talking about how "maybe I was to young for her" (sidenote: she was not older than me). I did the Game thing and refused to validate her opinion, because I thought it was rediculous. Her mood changed when I refused to accept it - she was a very emotionally expressive girl, and I could feel her interest go up when I wouldn't go with it.
She sat on my bed and we looked at pics of stuff I had done on my laptop for a while. Listened to some music. The mood was never quite right to kiss her, so I didn't. It got late, I walked her out to her car. She seemed hesitant to leave. I tried to kiss her. She physically kept me from getting anything but her cheek. I backed off a bit - she still didn't want to leave. I kept talking. I tried to kiss her again - I got a little closer, but again, she physically kept me from kissing her on the lips. But again - she didn't seem to want leave. This happened again, and finally I could tell I could finally get close enough to kiss her - and that's when I had my super-beta shoot myself in the foot moment. I was in town from another state, and I started to feel bad that I didn't live there and I didn't know where things were going to go. So I said good night and left.
Frankly, I went back to my room and felt like shit. Had I pushed things to far? Was I being an ass? Was I a total jerk?
She texts me that night saying how excited she is to see me the next day. I was shocked. I had been suppressing my discomfort doing what I was doing, and I was waiting to get a "you're an ass and I don't want to see you again" text, and instead I got a "that was fun! can't wait to hang out tomorrow!".
Problem is - I'm totally shot at this point. I'm losing interest. Next day I pick her up, but frankly - I just don't have any positive energy to flirt with her with. We go somewhere, I talk mostly to other people, she's not real happy, she gives some other guy her phone number. After I drop her off, next day she texts me "I don't like what's going on".
She was great with my push/pull in kissing her - but upset when I was ignoring her.
That's not the only way to go, the girl before that I sidetalked about dating and sex and I got her to invite me over, tell me she had had a few drinks, jump onto my lap herself and start making out with me. What this forum gets wrong is that super aggressive is the only way to go. But it's wrong that there's large groups of girls looking for that.
Your comment claiming her thinking "should I do this" suggests you might need to go back and look at the fundamentals. Not sure how else to put it.
soulracer 12y ago
First, you're clearly questioning a lot about yourself, so it would be beneficial to take some advice instead of looking for validation and arguing. I made my points for your benefit. That's not to say you're wrong about everything.
When I refer to "should I do this", if you're doing it right, it's not a one way thing. Of course everyone questions their actions in life. Point being, she should be questioning herself and resisting her own desire so she doesn't feel whorish. It's part of the fun. It's not should I let him fuck me, but do let myself go. That's BP thinking. You framed it as men dancing around trying win over the reluctant princess. That's not the right way to think. (TRP) I never question "should I do this" about fucking a girl. I either want to or don't.
Let's get detailed about your post, while we're at it:
That's not our concern, and also it's really not hard work. Women know if they'd fuck you within minutes of meeting you. You're sabotaging yourself with assumptions.
There's no such thing. Relationships form after attraction, and people still need to meet.
You want to have things easy and effortless. Going beyond your social circle is life enhancing and growth inducing. The reality is that men do the approaching. Women feel more feminine that way. Once there's attraction a girl will go out of her way to keep talking and coming up with interesting things to say. But attraction comes first. Not to criticize social circle as your choice of primary outlet, but a man should be able to adapt to all environments and challenges.
True, but so what. Just man up and accept that there are bitches in the world and don't let your ego get hurt. (TRP)
Having a girl start to want you based on your actions, turns you off? I'd guess it's because you're acting this "game" of yours, instead of embodying it, so it feels artificial.
Good, but you should strive for "Game" and your personality to be the same, eventually. There is no "game thing" and non-game thing. (TRP)
It's up to you to set the mood. It's not magic. (TRP)
You didn't build enough physical attraction, through sexual tension, and other physical touch, and didn't realize it. There is no try. Unless you're a psychopath, if you're feeling it, it's probably right.
Irrelevant.. You're kissing, not proposing. (TRP)
No. Being a jerk is telling a girl you blew her off the night before to fuck someone else you just met, the first time you meet. And she still fucks you. You were the opposite of a jerk/ass. If a girl comes over to your place, sits on your bed, bullshits all evening, and doesn't want to leave, she wants you. You just weren't smooth enough with her and didn't take it far enough.
Because you're rethinking the previous disaster, and not letting your mojo flow. Pick yourself up, forget what happened, stare at her tits to and give her what she's clearly craving, which is your inner caveman.
Yes, because she's trying to get you to man up with jealousy, and get your balls activated. It's standard procedure.
There are aggressive girls that are tired of waiting for guys to make the first move. Still, it's much more satisfying IMO to bed a difficult, bitchy, challenging or reluctant girl, due to solid game. There's nothing better than seeing her melt into your world uncontrollably.
Yes, women like men with balls that confidently go after what they want and feel good to be desired for their sexuality. There is nothing wrong with that, but rather, it makes perfect sense. Step 1. Realize this. Step 2. Stop being bitter about reality. Step 3. Embrace and change (TRP)
Hehe, thanks.
Good luck, this was fun.
PaulRivers10 12y ago
That sounds pretty manipulative to me. "Oh, you're uncertain? Well you should just take my advice." What I did was effective - it got me much further than I would have with this girl, and if she's excited about it there's not a worry about whether it's immoral either.
I think it's blue pill thinking to say "that's not the way to do it", but then when it's successful, hamster one's way into saying "it's all part of the fun". I mean my post wasn't 100% clear, but I'm getting that strong "I'm here to help you by giving you terrible politically correct advice" feeling.
I disagree that that's how I framed it.
Congratulations on never having that go completely nuts on you, but I have. "Don't stick your dick in crazy" is a hard rule to follow if you're not sure if she's crazy. I had a girl go nuts on me after we started sleeping together, but at least having friends in common I knew she wasn't totally insane. You get an insane chick pregnant, or pick up a serious std, and your life is fairly fucked.
I'm sorry, but I honestly wonder if you really do this on a regular basis if you're claiming you've never had a girl express hesitation. If you have - great. That's awesome.
I don't agree. Women only know they want to fuck you within minutes of meeting you if you're way above their SMV.
Lol, don't agree with you at all. Have known several women incapable of being happy in a relationship. I didn't date them, but I knew them. That's certainly the opposite of red pill philosphy.
There's a difference between forming new social circles vs abandoning social circles completely. The most attractive and likeable girls I knew never met a guy they dated in a bar - it was easier and more pleasant for them to meet the guys through a social circle.
You just said the same thing I said about being entertaining back.
PaulRivers10 12y ago
On the other hand, trying to grow a palm tree in the desert is a stupid endeaver if there's a tropical forest 3 miles over.
You're the one trying to change the topic into ego. What I wrote was an explanation, not a complaint.
Yeah, a sociopathic level of emotional detatchment is a turn off for me.
That's only partially true, and based on the pedelizing idea that whatever women want is perfect.
In reality, some game can be integrated into being a more effective person. Other will turn you into a phschyopath. You'll notice if you're at it for a while that treating men or coworkers in the same way that some women like to be treated will make them hated and get you fired.
Again, your posts sound like someone who's read a lot about Game but not do a lot of it - or you're somehow in the top 20% of attractiveness for guys. If you're not in a club, you need to alternate building attraction and comfort. Making aggressive physical moves at the right time works well, doing them at the wrong time kills comfort.
I lived 5 years single going with that stupid "wait until you feel it" philosophy. That's why I stayed single.
As you alluded to above, it's up to you to create the mood, and if I didn't make physical moves there she was clearly going to lose interest. I've never seen a girl before as emotionally obvious as this girl, and it was clear that her whaning interest was perked back up when I started being more aggressive towards her.
My entire live was - to be blunt - driven by your stupid philsophy. And my entire life was the same pattern - I would never "feel it" until she was comfortably dating someone else. Game made me look back and realize that it was true that every time I actually got laid / dated someone, that either I overcame her resistance or I was way, way more attractive than her.
On this point I agree, but I think I said that in my post - this was a mistake on my part.
Which is beside the point that you earlier claimed that this is "not the way to do it".
Something I couldn't do exactly because I followed philosophies like that you earlier expressed, believing that what I was doing must be wrong or bad.
Seems like you're trying to brag about how you read about game, whereas I was making a point. The point was that she liked me being push/back off/push/back off, that didn't irritate her but backing off completely did - who's point was being aggresive wasn't bad or offensive to her obviously.
That's your call for your preference, I don't find that enjoyable, though it's something I'm learning I have to put up with. I liked seeing her melt into my world uncontrollably by jumping onto my lap and making out with me. Or doing her half of the emotional escalation at least.
Well, we agree on one thing.
The first thing my friend taught me about game is that bitterness is the least attractive emotion. I watched for a while - and he was right.
Interesting.
soulracer 12y ago
There's nothing politically correct about what I was saying. If I built enough attraction then a girls hesitation is about preserving her self image, not questioning her attraction. Of course I've had hesitation with girls before. But I can tell pretty early if there is attraction. I don't mean interest, I mean attraction, which is different. When I know there's attraction I enjoy aggressively continuing, by amplifying those points. Yes it's a combination of comfort, some teasing, some aloofness, some direct touching, whatever.. It's the fun of the game. I thought that was implied.
If there isn't an attraction according to my perception, I stop talking to her and move on or do something else. I have fun in bars doing that. Of course I try to get laid, but I'm not desperate, so don't come off that way, even if I'm being assertive with the sexual tension. If I had to make a choice about having fun sexual interaction or boring sex on a particular night, I'd choose the former. That's what I mean it's all part of the fun. Game shouldn't feel like a chore. If you think it would make you a psychopath, then you're doing something wrong, or you're simply not comfortable with yourself. It seems you have some internal conflicts, since you mentioned morality, and the psychopath comment.
So that's the point I tried to make about the bar scene. Most often guys are aggressive with trying build an instant connection, and rush things, instead of taking a girl for a ride. It's too much of a getting laid mission. That's why the bitch shields come up. This is exactly what you said about bars. They are tired of predictable come ons. I would be too.
I wanted to suggest an alternative way to look at what's happening in bars, and offer a different approach, based on my personal experiences. Sometimes trying to plant a tree in the desert teaches you more than hanging out in the forest. Teach a man to fish...
Secondly, I never said "wait till it feels right". Quite the opposite. I said you need to ensure it feels right, because it's not a magic moment that happens by itself. I think you agree and why you got more aggressive in your example, even if poor timing due to not enough build up. You don't go up to a girl you just found on the street and kiss her, not do you wait for her to spread her legs on your bed before making a move. I won't dissect every detail but it could have even been as simple as maybe holding her neck for a little while before kissing.. I dunno. Your moves were forced, and obviously didn't work out that night. Like you said you need to overcome resistance, but I'd suggest using your gaming skills over forcing your face onto her awkwardly.
You then sort of tended to blame the girl for being emotionally oblivious. Maybe so, I dunno some girls are annoying like that. Point being she did nothing too unusual based on your examples, and you just need to figure out her buttons better. It seems like you want women to do more of the work. Since your successful examples are due to women taking control, yet at the same time resenting them for it. Unless I misread.
As to her liking the sexual tension and getting irritated when you ignored her, of course you needed to be more assertive. Same could be said for her giving out her number. Giving and feeling jealousy is pretty standard. It's not something I need to read about, but I've had lots of experience with it, and use it well myself. She probably wanted you to lead her on a fun dance where she gets more progressively turned on. That's good natural game, not a psychopath move. She could have also been an attention whore. I dunno, it's all in the body language details.
Anyway, those are my opinions about bars and the experiences you shared. All I know is what works for me, so take it or leave it. I only commented because you shared. Normally I couldn't care less what people do or think. By the way, I only gave relevant examples from experience, if I wanted to brag, I could. I think I actually have pretty good game, and am good at the attraction and the getting laid part. My weaknesses are in the area of continuing and sustaining things. Maybe another time.
kami_kakushi 12y ago
partying/going to bars is a bad way to achieve anything worthwhile in life
unless your goal in life is to be a bar manager/own your own bar and get rich from it, so you need to learn the culture to an extent