- Be Attractive
- Don't be unattractive
Dating is surprisingly simple, the first rule is pretty straightforward as to what sorts of things should we be doing to build value in ourselves. People are motivated by self-interest, if your value aligns with their self interest as a person then a baseline of attraction is met.
However a lot of guys don't quite understand that the second rule is not a re-instatement of the first; It's referencing the things you don't do in order to preserve the value you already have.
Following rule one is fairly simple and usually can be fulfilled with aesthetic elements such as being in shape, dressing well, being well groomed, being financially stable, etc... etc... ad nauseam.
The second rule isn't as straightforward; these are the kinds of things you would do that would act against the self interest in your potential suiters:
- Being cruel or mean to others
- Narcissistic
- Inability to listen
- Can't see other points of view
Before bUt MuH nO mOrAlIzInG is dogmatically chanted in the comments, try to think about the people who are interested in you. Are they primarily interested in you, or secondarily interested in you - putting their own self interests first?
What would be seemingly obvious goes ignored obviously at a high cost, often at our own expense. Try to think about entering a business contract where your partner is: Mean and cruel to you, Narcissistic; doesn't listen to you, nor can they see your point of view. As you could imagine, someone with these traits is breaking Rule 2: Don't be unattractive. These sorts of 'qualities' are things that subtract from your value. If we could suppose for a moment that casual dating is the business of entertainment, and both parties undergo some sort of social contract to partake it in, you should understand that the terms you set might go against the self interest of the people you're trying to attract.
Lastly, there is a concern with self preservation, as demonstrated in the Prisoners Dilemma, where if both people choose what's worst for the other person than everybody get's fucked (not in the way we're looking for either). This is where the concern for Rule 2 comes in as part of the social contract of casual sex. If you want to be apart of the causal sex dating group, you need to uphold the social contract of casually fucking. Break the rules and you're out of the group. Just like any other social group.
Good luck boys and happy hunting.

RainySeasonInPH 6y ago
Not really kiddo.
You're making a fundamental mistake here, and a very common one. You are assuming that because these things would be unattractive to to you, or to men in general, or to a reasonably thinking person, that women, who are none of those things, work the same way.
In fact, you have chosen a list of attributes that is almost diametrically opposite to those that are indeed unattractive to women. For example:
These are feminine traits. They are strong turnoffs to strait women. They are perceived as weak.
Remember, attraction is not a choice. No one on earth chooses rationality to be attracted to what is in their best interests. Women do not choose to be attracted to men with narcissistic or dark triad traits. They just are.
TRP theorizes that this is genetic to the species, as an outcome of our somewhat brutal history in which females who were not attracted to powerful, dominant, cruel men—conquerers—simply did not survive. This makes a lot of sense. But it doesn't really matter what the fucking reason is, because we can observe for a fact that girls find outlaw biker escaped mental patient behaviors to be sexually attractive, and find compliant respectful generous provider behaviors to be first-class panty dehumidfiers.
This is fundamental red pill. You need to take this back to the drawing board, it's missing some core basics.
fuckGuilt 6y ago
It's a whole lot more fucked than that, right?
What's the best thing to do when a warlord rides in and kills your husband and sons? Fuck him, and fuck him well.
[deleted] 6y ago
You bring up some good points, could you demonstrate how the first list is equivalent to the second?
RainySeasonInPH 6y ago
The second list isn't really meant to be a point-by-point equivalence to the first; it's just roughly similar. Although, you could certainly construct such a list yourself, if you wanted to. You might even find it useful to do so.
For example:
You would think this would be a huge turnoff to any sane person.
However, cruelty demonstrates power. Power gets panties wet. The ability to mean, and get away with it, sends an indirect but explicit message, that you can do whatever the fuck you want, whether others like it or not.
Now I do not advocate cruelty, in fact quite the opposite. Kindness is the very facet of our existence which makes us human. Be human.
But the fact is that serial killers get fan mail in jail from women that want to fuck them. This is notably less true of for example Nobel Peace Prize winners, nor yet dudes who are "good listeners." In a way, this dichotomy is one of the most fundamental red pill realizations:
Women do not give a fuck if a men are good. They only care if they are strong.
I'm not going to do the rest of these for you because you need to work shit out for yourself.
I think you have a valid and interesting insight in the idea that:
It's just that you have the actual behaviors that are attractive vs. unattractive to females arse-backwards.
caius100 6y ago
During highschool I LTR-ed an 8. This girl was extremely into me, so much that she would come to my chess games after-school where I played men about 50/60 years old, in a totally “low smv” environment for a teenager, and all of this just to see me. After I broke up with her, she literally called my mother telling her about the new girls I fucked. That’s some new level craziness. The point of this is I was treating her like a cumdumpster without even realizing. For about 7 months of relationship her ideas didn’t matter to me, all I would say was “shut up” or “you’re stupid, dont talk to me” . She would come to my place and I’d be telling her to wake me up with a blowjob, and she’d literally stay up for an hour just to suck my dick. I couldnt make this shit up even if I wanted to. Dark triad works, but my morality won’t let me do it now. The first list is incorrect. The point is a good one tho.
[deleted] 6y ago
We can both agree that dark triad would work, but why does it work?
caius100 6y ago
Because it displays strength and IDGAF mentality. Pure IDGAF, not some beta cuck tryina act like a cool macho-man. This is reality, you either get better or bitter about it. No need to put questions that dont require an answer.
[deleted] 6y ago
If your car runs today but not tomorrow do you not ask yourself why it ran yesterday but not today?
Are people directly attracted to narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy because they think it will benefit them directly? Or are they fooled by people with dark triad traits believing that their own desires will be fulfilled? Or something else entirely?
caius100 6y ago
Your example is incorrect and I will not continue this. The car’s still running and it definetly will during this period where the amount of BP guys is rising like hell.
[deleted] 6y ago
And if your car is still running why is she your ex?
caius100 6y ago
Please re-read my first reply. Thanks, have a good day
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mediandirt 6y ago
Who the fuck are you? There is an endless supply of material going into detail of Dark Triad and it works.
Open it and quit being a lazy fuck. This attitude probably reflects in your gym life and the oneitis you have for the girl that gave you this shitty ass list.
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Shaney96 6y ago
The notion of being Primarily vs Secondarily interested is rather curious.
My interpretation of such an idea is that the Primary is a genuine interest in a person due to their reflection of your value, where the activity of escalation and sex is a 'celebration' of your self-esteem.
A Secondary interest is born from a Machiavellian perspective whereby the target (yes, 'target', for now we shift to a Game rhetoric) is selected and primed based purely on how they may serve one's interests.
Indeed, Primary and Secondary are intimately linked insofar as they engender a sense of pleasure in the Prime Mover of the interaction (the man), yet are separated by the spiritual significance of the Primary.
Redagogue 6y ago
I agree with the general premise that rule 2 is misunderstood and unappreciated. Your examples, however, are exactly the kind of traits that women find attractive in men, especially for casual sex and dating. The entire premise of the sub is that men get tired of reality not matching their Disney dreams of how relationships work, where shitty people get all the sex and women throw away their youth and vitality before settling with a provider who she kept at arms length and made crawl for the privilege of duty sex. Women desire men who are selfish and hold frame because if they can sink into the woman sized hole in the Achilles of every man, then she will have his power and protection. He will have the hard selfish shell to the outside world and the woman has the safe, warm, and gooey inner core to cocoon her. Hence why women like bad boys, how serial killers on death row get love letters and married, and how women stay and sleep with known players and cheaters.
This was eye opening when I personally had this proven first hand to me. The girl and I were arguing about a movie, where the protagonist was making stupid impulsive decisions and she was defending him. I kept it fun and more teasing than arguing, and ended with telling her something like "It's okay, we're all wrong sometimes." She replied, "Why do I find that so attractive?" Fun times were had afterward.
This idea that women want a non-narcissist, listening, and kind man is wrong. This is a subreddit filled with former nice guys who tried that strategy and failed utterly, the kind of nice guys who doubled down on it when it wasn't working and still failed. It simply does not reflect reality, and attempting to do so is really trying to paint the blue pill red.
[deleted] 6y ago
Yea it would make sense for Dark Triad men in a way to be targeted by women who understand they can slip into this spot and in a way control the controller.
A lot of guys are really only concerned with sex, a lot of girls can pick up on this and will throw a little supply their way at a high cost. I'm not sure how this is a better alternative to finding other girls to fuck tho.
[deleted] 6y ago
Don't you got a guy in your group that likes asian girls, one that likes Mexican girls, one that likes fat chicks, and sometimes your friends taste in women doesn't line up?
Sure at a biological level we all like dick and clam, but to say that everybody is attracted to exactly the same traits seems a bit stretched out.
Redagogue 6y ago
From a biological perspective, guys who give off signals of weakness, such as weak frame, out of shape, fat, insecurity, etc., are akin to a half starved plow horse. Yeah, the price is cheaper and you can lock that down easily, but how useful is a useless plow horse? All girls will pony up sex for a chance at locking down the huge stallion Clydesdale plow horse, because the reward is so much greater, payment is more enjoyable, and the chance of having little mini Clydesdales on the farm to ensure its security in perpetuity. Even in the event that the girl can't afford the Clydesdale, she can always rent him to start making little Clydesdales and later on cash in her chips on a serviceable plow horse that was overlooked but workable. Every female can easily reproduce, that's not her issue. She does, however, want to have the most high quality and well protected offspring possible. In that view, the mother of Ghengis Khan scored big, as his DNA is in some huge percentage of Asians today because of his conquests.
Anyone who says that their preference is a safe, nice, agreeable, and controllable guy are sour-grapes'ing everyone they can't reasonably afford so as to rationalize to their ego why they aren't getting good stock. If you conduct a thought experiment of a thoroughly average female that for some reason has infinite choice in that every guy possible is interested, she will always, without exception, choose someone who is attractive, confident, wealthy, and powerful. Just as you would if you were the chooser in such an experiment, you will always choose the young, beautiful, kind, caring, supportive, childish woman. There may be subtle variations for preference, but the trend is more important. Given a choice between your preference that was a 5, you would still choose an available 8-10. That preference exists does not negate the predictive power of the idea. If you throw random objects from a skyscraper, you would predict that they would all fall, even given the possibility that they could be balloons, gliders, feathers, or planes. Exceptions exist, but they are so nonexistent that they are pointless. It is simply more predictive, practical, useful, and true to operate by the default assumption and then adjust if needed than to assume that nothing can be assumed. Heuristics are valuable, and this one is effectively stone cold truth.
The "different strokes for different folks" argument doesn't work here, because it would be like arguing that a preference for only eating dirt is equivalent to eating bread. A man who accepts the realities of others and is weak is a liability. He's the guy who is sent to hunt for his family's survival and comes back empty handed because the deer ran away and thus God must have not wanted him to kill it. Women objectively need men to see adversity as a road to his victory and impose his own narrative on reality so that when he is sent to hunt for the family, he comes back with a fat buck across his shoulders that he proudly followed for a day and a night because God wanted him to prove he could best the buck.
[deleted] 6y ago
This makes a lot of sense and I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. Do you see anyways where you could be strong without being cruel (intentionally mean for the sake of hurting others), narcissistic (the inability to see other points of view besides your own) and perhaps some of the other things that were mentioned (that I can’t reference while I’m typing a comment) wouldn’t be considered as weaknesses?
Redagogue 6y ago
No. If the goal is to maximize attractiveness and minimize unattractiveness, then the more the better. Cruelty is only limited by what society will allow and toeing that line indicates power and confidence ("Oh, he's such a dick sometimes, but don't let him bother you!"). Narcissism means that he will never have self-confidence issues, let insults beat him down, or be controlled by others ("He never cares when I cry, but I love him so much!"). She will want as much of that as possible that the surrounding men will tolerate from him. If he's a leader, skilled, or well liked, then he gets away with more. It becomes a liability only when everyone else tolerates it no longer and turns on him. Check the #MeToo movement. So many outrageous behaviors from powerful people that any lesser person would have been lynched for had to be tattled on in order for the underlings to turn on the Chads. Cruelty and narcissism equals power, and women want that more than anything. So long as they can keep the Chad with a soft spot to them, they are satisfied.
Keep in mind, in the real world such quaint ideals as strength vs cruelty or narcissism vs generosity are relative to their times, situations, people involved, etc. A Chinese emperor executing a general who was a day late with an army was seen as stern but fair. A Roman emperor remembering the name of a pageboy was deemed a great honor. An English judge ordering the hand of a thief cut off seen as firm rebuke. A Byzantine prince assassinating other claimants to the throne was impressive and intelligent, even if they were babies. If a 1055 Viking could see Sweden today, he would be a rabid monster of taking what he wanted without caring and carting off women as prizes of war, who would also find the experience amazingly arousing considering all the rape fantasy these days. By whose definition are you cruel or strong or narcissistic or generous? Hers? Society's? You are the center of origin of your own definition. Impose your own reality on the woman and anything less than your level is weak and pathetic and anything more is barbaric and monstrous. If you are morally satisfied and congruent with your own behavior, she will naturally bend to that. The only limitation is everything around that, which is why people tend to be cruelest and most narcissistic in private and how women will tolerate such behavior until it becomes public and suddenly they were too scared to come forward and they had to be so strong to suffer it. If a cruel narcissist cannot be controlled by society, then there is no limit, which is why anarchy and despotism brings out the worst in people. These traits are selected for by women because they evolutionarily lead to better outcomes, despite their protestations for peace and kindness.
To the rational man, we know that the extremes of anything lead to destruction. Too much food, too much sex, too much wine, too much sleeping, too much money, too much misery, too much war, etc. To the prehistoric, stupid, monkey brain that actually controls us (as it bucks off the cerebrum), more of a good thing is better always. This is why men looking at women's silhouettes will choose waists so narrow it's impossible to give birth through, or women choose men so tall that they forever have back problems. It is the burden of mankind that we see rational choices and are baffled when we repeatedly make irrational choices guided by a prehistoric lizard brain.
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throwabcdaway4 6y ago
Being mean is so f**ing attractive to girls its not even funny
Domebeers 6y ago
it's because women are...women. They don't get off on you being 'mean', to them 'mean' means 'strength', and they find 'strength' attractive.
(Women are mean to each other to establish social dominance within their group. So because women are women...do I really need to write the rest?)
LSDparade 6y ago
It's not about being mean. This is the wrong message. It's about having a black heart. In the face of your own survival, would you destroy another person? Look at MMA fighters. Even when they respect each other, they're willing to break each others face in pieces to win the cake.
A job opportunity comes up and you're in competition with a friend or an acquaintance and only one of you gets to a chance to grab it, would you take it, even if it causes resentment among your peers? It's about being able to take opportunity and decision for your own self interest whilst maintaining a strong face. That is what is considered "mean", and that is what is attractive.
[deleted] 6y ago
Making these choices are most certainly possible without having a black heart
fuckGuilt 6y ago
I wanted to quibble from your lead here, but....you have it exactly right.
[deleted] 6y ago
You bring up a good point, it sounds like you're referencing playful mean where everybody ends up at a net positive. What I'm talking about is cruelty which is something different entirely.
throwabcdaway4 6y ago
Nah i was literally talking about cruelty. Next time someone falls in the street and ur with a girl just say "what a piece of shit" and watch her reaction.
WestyWorld 6y ago
This doesn’t work on all women. Some girls will genuinely be disgusted by something like that.
throwabcdaway4 6y ago
You are in denial because you refuse to completely swallow the pill.
They will say they are disgusted but deep down will like it. And wont be able to admit it even to themselves. Still is true.
Casd12 6y ago
Aka be a savage and say savage things. It illustrates power cus you aren't held back by social norms.
[deleted] 6y ago
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throwabcdaway4 6y ago
You should not have sniffed your red pill, now its stuck there and you sound funny when you talk
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INNASKILLZ2K18 6y ago
You don't HAVE to be outright mean. It isn't always unnatractive, though.
The key is having some of these qualities in an amused mastery sort of way. A touch of narcissism, I'm the fuck'n prize, a little condescending.
You don't need to intentionally cause others harm, but you do need to hold your frame in a way where you're willing to say 'haha, look at all the peasants looking to me. Fuck em'.
Cocky, arrogant, narcissism. Amused mastery.
You're being black and white, where the truth lays in the middle 99% of the time.
Glassland 6y ago
Narcissism is attractive to younger females because they are immature. Narcissism is immature grandiosity. A true man is humble, he does not judge, he discerns. If you remain narcissistic and arrogant, people will eventually drop you. I've encountered several narcissists in my life and people always disliked them and talked behind their backs about them.
INNASKILLZ2K18 6y ago
Yeah, it's interesting man. Once you start exploring some of these 'Dark Triad' traits more.
I think a lot of guys new to RedPill get really stuck in binary thinking, and black and white thinking. On one hand, they think are the nice guys. On the other they believe women are only attracted to highly highly arrogant, narcissistic, sociopathic guys. As if it's one or the other. They also hamster that Narcs and Dark Triads have some illusion of power.
In my opinion, the truth always lays in the middle. Sure, displays of arrogance, shades of cockiness, over-confidence is attractive. You gotta know how to put yourself out there to survive in this world.
But literally being a toxic personality disorder doesn't get very far. In fact, you can argue that their frame is horrible. Narcissists are just empty people with a ton of self-loathing underneath. Sociopaths will eventually just be 'off'.
Nice guys/betas/new Red Pill guys have a lot of difficulty understanding nuances of behaviour. You can display a lot of attractive traits without needing to be Dark Triad, or be stuck as a 'nice guy'.
delicoban33 6y ago
This. Being narsisric without putting something to the plate is just giving me cringe. Just be normal if you have the values. You don't need to show off your qualities. But of course keep your frame and fight for your honor when it comes to that. Being socially strong and being humble and cocky in the same time is the best way. Intentionally showing your worth is just advertising because fucking worth nothing.
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SeasonedRP 2 6y ago
The things you mention as unattractive--being cruel, narcissistic, unable to listen, and unable to see other points of view--won't prevent you from getting laid. They thus aren't unattractive in the way you are saying because they don't subtract from your value in the sex market. True, in looking for a friend or business associate, you don't want someone with these qualities. But many other things will hinder you more in the dating sphere. Between an average nice guy and an arrogant jerk with the qualities you mention, the latter will do better with women.
[deleted] 6y ago
Sorry to trouble you, could you show how they don’t hurt you?
[deleted] 6y ago
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[deleted] 6y ago
Can you demonstrate this to be true?
ThatOneDrunkUncle 6y ago
Look at any of IMs work on dark triad men being irresistible to some women. One plate literally told me last week, "you're attractive, but such a douche... which somehow makes you more attractive."
Domebeers 6y ago
SoUrCe???
Dude...this is like well known, I think even science studies have been done that show women like the dark triad traits. Like, you don't know this? Ummm....
[deleted] 6y ago
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[deleted] 6y ago
Good sir, please consider for a moment the incentive you have placed on your own conversation.
Edit: Science requires itself to be proven, which you have not done. How can you consider your viewpoint to be scientific?
[deleted]
TheRedPike Senior Endorsed 6y ago
Generally I agree, but there has been some good education in the comments. And no, I didn't remove your comment. Automod goes insane from time to time.
ethical_pa 6y ago
Not quite sure I follow you here. Can you expand on this? I'm taking it to mean that engaging in casual sex means both parties want to get something fun out of it and have low liabilities. From her perspective: be cool, nice (EDIT: I don't mean be a "nice guy"; obviously dominance, confidence, etc are attractive, but she needs some level of comfort and relatability) and don't slut shame her. From your perspective: she shouldn't get super clingy, nor ask for investment on your part, etc.
[deleted] 6y ago
Sure message me and we can chat over Skype
mediandirt 6y ago
You've been listening to what your female friends say an not what their actions say. You need to go back to the sidebar, or get some real life experience and ancedotes to back up what you're saying.
Stop listening to drunk females naming off their checklist and watch who they go home with at the end of a night.
[deleted] 6y ago
Bro what's got you so worked up?
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